Are We on the Verge of a Transgender Civil War?
by transmeditations on January 11, 2011.
http://transmeditations.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-transgender-civil-war/ (http://transmeditations.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/are-we-on-the-verge-of-a-transgender-civil-war/)
There has been a lot going on in the transsexual/transgender blogosphere of late. It's like a storm has been brewing for quite a few months now. It is difficult to describe the points of division in the community because they are multiple, they are complex and they are deeply rooted. As a member of the trans community who has been "out" for nearly twenty years, I have seen these problems for a long time now, and they seem to rear their head from time to time but never get resolved in a meaningful way.
Undoubtedly, others who read this will characterize the war differently, or may include things that I neglect to include. That's fair. This characterization is partial and incomplete. But I think that we need to have these discussions and realize that our fate as a community is at stake. With that said, there are people in this debate who are never going to compromise even a little, teeny, tiny bit. I am not interested as much in the extremists on either side as on the moveable middle. As a self-identified radical, I do not think the middle views are better, more rational or more reasonable. I only focus on the middle because I want us to have enough unity to go forward as a political bloc to demand change.
An interesting dilemma. I have noticed some tensions with terminology, though I personally use the term "transgender" quite liberally and frequently. I think I personally like the term, because the etymology of "trans" means to go beyond, over or to go across, which I think is a pretty open definition.
Perhaps the segregation is happening because of a great need to validate ones' identity by exclusion, actually I'm pretty sure that's how it happens. If that is so, perhaps it's time for the community to decide shall we stand together, or stand apart. Maybe that means finding a new term to use, but I get the feeling after the term is made once again there will be talk of "but I don't fit into that." Of course, I'm not nearly as deeply involved in counseling, grass-roots organizations and the like, so maybe I'm completely off.
Interesting. I sense similar things to the author. But I think the issue is a lot of us struggle with self acceptance. What I think happens is if you don't accept what you are, then you will segregate yourself from anyone that by association points to you being something you don't accept.
e.g. you often here things like " I am a woman, I have nothing similar with non-ops, they can't be real woman (like i am)." "I'm just getting rid of a birth defect, I never had a male body, it was always a womans body with a defect..." "I am nothing like a crossdresser, they are men with a fetish"
I understand the powerful desire to be 'normal' though, to go unnoticed in society as men or woman, to wish that past never happened. If that is what you want, all power to you, you deserve it. We have a hard lot. But I think we are better served by making 'trans' a normal state of being rather than trying to twist ourselves in a knot trying to believe we are just like anyone else. I would rather have someone say "so you are transgender? What flavor?, gosh you have lovely lips, let me kiss them some more...." than "gosh, could you imagine kissing a transgendered person?? Yuck, kiss kiss
I should add a caveat that I don't feel like I am 'normal', and I like it that way. But if you do, then perhaps my argument is moot for you.
I also sense what the writer has presented. It is not very difficult to see or witness this both online and offline. In my opinion it boils down to basically what you have stated Nicky, our self-acceptance. If we accept who we are, nothing more, nothing less, we may find that we no longer out of necessity need a label nor do we need approval from peers, medical doctors, or pathologizing psychologists. We become free to associate with whatever we feel comfortable with, knowing we will never fit completely into any profile. It is only when we desperately seek acceptance outside ourselves that we try to fit neatly into a label at whatever cost. When we find we do not fit neatly, which IMO is bound to occur at some point or another, it creates stress, self-hatred, denial, etc. These feelings are then often projected onto others instead of dealth with from within.
It is rare that a single individual fits neatly into a created profile or classification. Only the most general of labels will match to many individuals at once. I had hoped that the term transgender might be one of these general labels. I still use the term but more and more it is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth. It seems to be moving from a unifying term to being even more divisive than the terms it was supposed to replace or 'umbrella'.
I think many of the issues raised here were created and are still being exacerbated by medical doctors and psychs who really have no idea what they are talking about. Many of us want to look to professionals for answers. Unfortunately, many psychologists, psychiatrists, and others that hold these titles are grossly biased and simply full of themselves. In the worst cases, nothing more than blundering idiots allowed to prance around as if they are authorities on subjects that they have little to no definite experience with.
IMO we must unify somehow and I don't really care what terms are used or not used at this point. Let's pick one and run with it. It is counter-productive for us to sit around and argue with one another about this or that or who is more or less trans, who is more or less woman, or who is more or less man. We are all human beings and like it or not there are other human beings which would wish the whole lot of us dead, locked up, beaten, marginalized, institutionalized, pathlogized, stripped of rights, the list goes on. We cannot fight this with any real determination if we are separated.
Peace, Love, and Hugs
Guns N' Roses - Civil War (Music Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9VhD4SccSE#)
Pfft. Civil war. How dramatic!
Seriously, the homosexual community has managed to forge ahead with human rights, despite the fact that gays and lesbians share nothing in common except a like for their own sex. Their community is far more diverse and diametrically opposed than ours will ever be.
QuoteUnifying is something that will never, ever happen. It won't happen in trans circles, amongst cisgendered people...no groups of any kind. Division and conflict will always be there no matter what. The idea that people will somehow come together for this cause or that cause is a fallacy and nothing more.
Sadly, this is so very true. My own personal feelings about why we will not be able to cure the division within our own ranks are pretty strong. And might I say, probably VERY un-popular.
Dawn
Quote from: Laura91 on January 11, 2011, 08:17:11 AM
Unifying is something that will never, ever happen. It won't happen in trans circles, amongst cisgendered people...no groups of any kind. Division and conflict will always be there no matter what. The idea that people will somehow come together for this cause or that cause is a fallacy and nothing more.
I am a dreamer for sure. I have had to ground myself many times to keep from floating off the planet. That being said, I see no fallacy in saying
some people and some groups have come together for causes. It is not simply an idea. It is a logical statement and a verifiable fact. If I were to say
all people and all groups come together for causes that would be a fallacy. Wishful thinking I suppose. Though I will continue to dream despite (and to spite) logic. ;D
Quote from: Dawn D. on January 11, 2011, 03:34:55 PM
Sadly, this is so very true. My own personal feelings about why we will not be able to cure the division within our own ranks are pretty strong. And might I say, probably VERY un-popular.
It does not look promising. I sadly agree.
As I said, there's sod all unity in the GL community, but their human rights are still forging ahead.
It would seem that unity isn't actually a requirement for success.
Quote from: Nicky on January 10, 2011, 11:42:02 PM
e.g. you often here things like " I am a woman, I have nothing similar with non-ops, they can't be real woman (like i am)." "I'm just getting rid of a birth defect, I never had a male body, it was always a womans body with a defect..." "I am nothing like a crossdresser, they are men with a fetish".
I read these sentiments quite often, I struggle because of some of them. I also feel like I may do some of these examples, not purposely though.
One thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".
WHAT??? :o
One that I try not to show is my indifference with cd's.
We are all different, just like the gay community, I don't think we have to agree with how anyone else views themselves.
Myself though, I like to communicate with others that have close to the same view of themselves as me.
Very nice post Nicky, I would give you a point on your reputation, but I don't know how that works. ???
Shelly
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
One thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".
WHAT??? :o
I'm not sure what context this is meant in.
Are you alluding that an MTF who is attracted to men IS gay?
Because that's the exact statement I'd make if someone asked me if I was gay, I'd say "No, I'm not gay. My preference is for men."
I don't know of any FTMs who are so violently "anti trangender" as a certain faction of MTFs always seem to be.
And I don't think that it's a coincidence that all of the transitioners who misgender late transitioners and insult cross dressers seem to be MTF.
I think these people are deeply fragile, and that they lack the basic ability to honestly evaluate where their feelings are coming from and govern themselves.
As a result, they wind up being destructive and cruel.
QuoteI don't think we have to agree with how anyone else views themselves.
I strongly disagree. The right to self-identify one's gender is, in my view, a fundamental human right. Failure to recognize a person's self identified gender is cruel beyond belief, and transexuals should know that better than anyone else. For a transexual to purposefully misgender someone is simply hideous.
QuoteOne thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".
WHAT???
LOL. If you don't understand that, then I think you are beyond reach.
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 11, 2011, 08:11:28 PM
I strongly disagree. The right to self-identify one's gender is, in my view, a fundamental human right. Failure to recognize a person's self identified gender is cruel beyond belief, and transexuals should know that better than anyone else. For a transexual to purposefully misgender someone is simply hideous.
+9000
Quote from: Vexing on January 11, 2011, 08:27:41 PM
+9000
Agreed.
It seems to me that all of the different groups are at the very least linked by a thread. Some more than others. But that's the way most people anywhere are. It's the admittance that the threads do exist with a commonality that holds different/same groups together, that makes it or breaks it. It's not a term that's needed, it's acceptance that there is a community that exists. Whether you like it or not.
wow!
Don't know if my post was censored off.
or if it just didn't post for some reason.
Moderators, if I was censored and post removed, please let me know.
A real war of words?
Personalty I see it as a "gateway" or "introductory" word. A word that allows you to enter or exit this weird world that many call transgender. (for lack of a better term)
for some reason we humans need to put a label on our-selfs, even as others around us file persons in to stereotypes.
We will never be rid of "transgender" as it is in such common usage.
The only way to get rid of it is to create another word that would become more popular
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 09:02:35 PM
wow!
Don't know if my post was censored off.
or if it just didn't post for some reason.
Moderators, if I was censored and post removed, please let me know.
That has happened to me a number of times. No biggie, just very annoying.
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
One thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".
I am not sure if by saying 'struggle with' if you mean internally with yourself or externally from others. If you mean you cannot understand it externally or coming from others, it is not difficult to grasp. It is quite obvious why someone who identifies as a woman, trans or otherwise, transitioned or not transitioned, who is attracted to men primarily, would not identify as gay. Likewise, this person, if they were primarily attracted to women, would likely identify as lesbian. That being said, the person is still free to identify as they wish. If for whatever reason they do not wish to identify as straight or gay, their reasoning should stand and not really be questioned in my opinion.
If you are struggling internally with yourself as to whether you are gay, straight, just be quiet, still, and reflect upon your heart and mind. This will help you realize what you feel. When you are comfortable with what you feel, don't let anyone's prejudices, preconceived notions, or lack of understanding sway you from your truth.
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
I don't think we have to agree with how anyone else views themselves.
If you mean that we do not have to view ourselves in the same manner that someone else does, I can understand that and that is acceptable I would think. If you mean that we don't have to agree with them on how they view themselves, while you are correct that we do not have to agree, we should respect their feelings and treat them as they see themselves.
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 11, 2011, 08:11:28 PM
The right to self-identify one's gender is, in my view, a fundamental human right. Failure to recognize a person's self identified gender is cruel beyond belief, and transexuals should know that better than anyone else. For a transexual to purposefully misgender someone is simply hideous.
I totally agree.
Funny...
Not too long ago, my husband said something along the lines of;
"I'm amazed that american GLBT folk haven't started a civil war yet.. "
It was in reference to some anti-gay thing or another...
I lol'd at the time.
Quote from: Miniar on January 12, 2011, 12:38:52 PM
Funny...
Not too long ago, my husband said something along the lines of;
"I'm amazed that american GLBT folk haven't started a civil war yet.. "
It was in reference to some anti-gay thing or another...
I lol'd at the time.
In a GLBT war, I can't decide who I'd ally with; the butch dykes are pretty ferocious, but then again, the leathermen come with their own armour kits and fantastic musculature.
Oh, he meant that all GLBT would war against the haters, not against each other.
Quote from: Miniar on January 12, 2011, 02:05:24 PM
Oh, he meant that all GLBT would war against the haters, not against each other.
In that case, I'll just drool over the leathermen regiment from my spot in the transarmy :D
LOL - I keep seeing this thread title and thinking what is this "verge of" about?
Don't they know that the civil war has been raging since the 1980's. ;D
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
We are all different, just like the gay community, I don't think we have to agree with how anyone else views themselves.
This is what I wrote. little different meaning!
Quote from: Naari on January 12, 2011, 12:34:44 PM
I am not sure if by saying 'struggle with' if you mean internally with yourself or externally from others. If you mean you cannot understand it externally or coming from others, it is not difficult to grasp. It is quite obvious why someone who identifies as a woman, trans or otherwise, transitioned or not transitioned, who is attracted to men primarily, would not identify as gay. Likewise, this person, if they were primarily attracted to women, would likely identify as lesbian. That being said, the person is still free to identify as they wish. If for whatever reason they do not wish to identify as straight or gay, their reasoning should stand and not really be questioned in my opinion.
If you are struggling internally with yourself as to whether you are gay, straight, just be quiet, still, and reflect upon your heart and mind. This will help you realize what you feel. When you are comfortable with what you feel, don't let anyone's prejudices, preconceived notions, or lack of understanding sway you from your truth.
If you mean that we do not have to view ourselves in the same manner that someone else does, I can understand that and that is acceptable I would think. If you mean that we don't have to agree with them on how they view themselves, while you are correct that we do not have to agree, we should respect their feelings and treat them as they see themselves.
I totally agree.
I have never been one to be on computer much in fact up until 9 months ago I was never on any type of forum or anything like it, ever. I may have read things from some forums but definitely wasn't invovled with any. With that being said, maybe this is how forums are, don't know!
I am only involved with this forum and one other (not much) I will say this though I have never been on a forum where my comments or opinions were taken out of context (literally too) so much.
So here you all go, go ahead and snip whatever quote makes your opinion stand out better for you. I'm sure you'll read something that hmm "thats just not right"
I have seeked this forum as well as one other for support, advice, companionship, compassion, and guidance. I have communicated and read read posts from some very helpful and understanding people, for that I am very grateful.
For the most part though, all I see and get is "I'm better then you", "and if you don't agree with how 30-40% feel on here then I'm the abnormal one.
This is actually true I do have problems, mostly because I have a hard time coming to grips with how I feel and what I'm doing to myself. It took me 3 almost 4 years to come to terms with my divorce, and I still have hard times. This is who I am, I take things very emotionally, it takes me a along time to adjust. Apparently 1 1/2 years to try and accept my GID and transition to another gender o er other sex (yes I know most of you are that gender already) is too long. Apparently because I have different views of MYSELF and feel at times what I am doing isn't normal, (ok snip away on that one)I'm the abnormal one.
I could go on and on about my life, it may help (I'm sure it wouldn't though) but I won't. When I say normal I, don't even know what that means. What does it mean when pertaining to human beings, I don't know. I do know this though, I don't feel normal, I never have and I still don't. I do want too so bad though.
I don't feel like a normal man, woman, trans or what ever. I thought and still think I am a ts but apparently since I don't feel as if I am a really woman because of what I have down below. (snip away on that one too)I have the problem. If someone knows and doesn't even question there gender, then why the hell have SRS. I know how I feel I am a realist yes do I feel as if I was born with the wrong organs, do I feel that my mind is that of a female? yes! but I also Iwill not feel like my true gender until SRS. I think about how I feel, I know how I feel. I feel like a female, but if I'm a female why does it have an M on my birth certificate, why do I have a penis. These are things I ask MYSELF often and when someone else tells me "well I am a woman, I always have been" yes this does confuse me. It confuses me because I do feel the same way, its just I think logically.
Like I said earlier, snip and quote whatever you like. I only came here for support, not to be misquoted for things I have felt about myself. I am glad NO ONE on here has struggles with how they feel like I do. If you do good luck with getting any help or support.
Just FYI for most of my life I was considered a heterosexual male, maybe this is my problem. I still would like to be with a woman but I am a female with a penis. (oh quote away on that one )
Don't forget the I when you quote me.
I'm sure most of you will ignore all the I's and just pertain it as insults to you, go ahead if that makes your day. I don't even know if this will get past the mod, I really don't care at this time.
Shelly
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 12, 2011, 02:50:06 PM
I am only involved with this forum and one other (not much) I will say this though I have never been on a forum where my comments or opinions were taken out of context (literally too) so much.
So here you all go, go ahead and snip whatever quote makes your opinion stand out better for you. I'm sure you'll read something that hmm "thats just not right"
Shelly,
No one seems to be attacking you here, and if you feel that anyone is, you can report their post to moderators and we will deal with it. To my reading of this thread, Vexing only asked you what you meant by your comment. It can be easy in an internet forum for people to take things the wrong way, no body language or smiles, just text. Also people in different countries express things in different ways.
Zythyra (News Admin)
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 12, 2011, 02:50:06 PM
For the most part though, all I see and get is "I'm better then you", "and if you don't agree with how 30-40% feel on here then I'm the abnormal one.
This exists everywhere, both online and offline, planetwide. It exists in the trans community and in the global population. There will always be people that think their way is the only way. When they join forces with others that agree with them, this increases the righteous attitude exponentially. You are not abnormal.
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 12, 2011, 02:50:06 PM
I only came here for support, not to be misquoted for things I have felt about myself. I am glad NO ONE on here has struggles with how they feel like I do. If you do good luck with getting any help or support.
I hope I have not misquoted you. If I have that wasn't my intention and I do apologize if I have. I think that most everyone on here has struggled at some point. While it may not be the exact same struggle as yours, mine, or another's, it is struggle nonetheless. I am new to posting on the board but lurked for quite some time. I have found a great number of people here are compassionate and loving, regardless of how we identify or what specific issues we struggle with. There are even those that are understanding of and hope for change in the self-righteous (difficult as it may be).
Quote from: Vexing on January 12, 2011, 02:54:58 PM
I still don't get your issue with the statement made by OTHER trans women "I'm not gay, I like men."
I think quite a few of us would like that statement clarified, if you're willing to do so?
Yes! I too would like this clarified.
Why would trans have to state this, WHEN NOT ASKED.
I have never come up to any body male or female, in my life and asked them what there sexual orientation was. I could understand why someone IN a between stage of transition would say this, but if you are or have transitioned why would anyone ask and why would you say if not asked.
Now I also do get confused with transwoman that say they are not gay but present as a male, I'm not saying it is wrong. I'm just curios at what someones reaction is when this is said.
I will ask you this. At one time in your life you presented male (or at least looked like you did according to one pic) I will not assume that is how you felt, I can only assume this is how you presented. If back then someone was to ask you what is your sexual orientation was, not that anyone really should or would, but lets just say someone did.
You say ""well, I'm not gay I like men" yes this is fine, this is how you feel, no problem.
But physically you looked like a man. I would be confused if someone that is presenting male and said that. I'm not questioning that mentally you are not a woman, I'm saying visually that is not what I SEE.
Similar to now if I was to ask you that same question, and your response was "I like men" that wouldn't confuse me, you are female, that is how I view you.
Similar but different: If I did not know Elan Degeneres from Jane doe and I was rude enough to ask her what her sexual orientation was and she said. "well dummy its women, I'm not gay" I would be thoroughly confused.
I am not directing my views or opinions on someones sexual orientation, frankly my life would be a hell of alot less confusing if I were attracted to men. I am questioning MYSELF in how I visually see people. Something in that order.
You know I am not here to have ISSUES with others, if you want to question my opinions, fine, but please don't tell me I have issues with something I have very little knowledge of.
I have issues with gun control, capitol punishment, government, religion and so on....... I try not to give my opinion on those.
Shelly
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 12, 2011, 06:59:33 PM
Yes! I too would like this clarified.
Why would trans women have to state this, WHEN NOT ASKED.
I've never stated it without being asked.
Why would someone state that without being prompted in some way?
QuoteI have never come up to any body male or female, in my life and asked them what there sexual orientation was. I could understand why someone IN a between stage of transition would say this, but if you are or have transitioned why would anyone ask and why would you say if not asked.
No idea, but I guess you must have heard someone say it for you to rail against it.
What were the circumstances where someone said this to you?
QuoteNow I also do get confused with transwoman that say they are not gay but present as a male, I'm not saying it is wrong. I'm just curios at what someones reaction is when this is said.
Do you get confused by pre-op trans women who like men saying that they are not gay?
QuoteI will ask you this. At one time in your life you presented male (or at least looked like you did according to one pic) I will not assume that is how you felt, I can only assume this is how you presented. If back then someone was to ask you what is your sexual orientation was, not that anyone really should or would, but lets just say someone did.
I identified as male, and exclusively had sex with females.
I am now female and exclusively have sex with males.
Either way you look at it, I'm just a boring old heterosexual.
QuoteYou say ""well, I'm not gay I like men" yes this is fine, this is how you feel, no problem.
But physically you looked like a man. I would be confused if someone that is presenting male and said that. I'm not questioning that mentally you are not a woman, I'm saying visually that is not what I SEE.
Well back then, I didn't say that.
I said "I'm not gay, I like
women."
QuoteYou know I am not here to have ISSUES with others, if you want to question my opinions, fine, but please don't tell me I have issues with something I have very little knowledge of.
Where did I say that?
Vexing
Wow you got me confused!
Well, I have nothing against you, honestly! but obviously you do not like me otherwise you wouldn't read what you want to read in my posts.
I would like to say let just agree to disagree, but I don't state that I agree or disagree with anything, I simply question things or state an opinion.
And yes you said issue. its quoted right on top of my previous post.
and now I'm railing against people asking me my sexual orientation WOW! where did I ever say that but I did say this.
I have never come up to any body male or female, in my life and asked them what there sexual orientation was. I could understand why someone IN a between stage of transition would say this, but if you are or have transitioned why would anyone ask and why would you say if not asked.
I am stating that I have never asked this, but I have HEARD this said with out even being asked, by some trans. Is it a common thing for trans to say? NO, its just strange that someone would point out there sexual orientation without being asked.
I appreciate you responding to my posts, whether you agree or not. I feel dialog in any subject especially trans related can only help me and maybe others better.
I ask you this though, please if your going to respond back, maybe read my post twice before. I seem to not articulate my thoughts in writing the best. I know what I mean but it may come out totally different. Sometimes it could be as little as a comma.
Shelly
I don't know where you're getting the idea that I don't like you; my feelings towards are totally neutral.
It has become clear to me that we are unable to understand each other. You don't seem capable of directly addressing my points, probably because you are unable to comprehend the points I'm trying to get across.
Likewise, I find your posts close to unintelligible and almost completely unrelated to what you're responding to.
I think it best that we call this debate quits and not interact again.
However, I'm not entirely certain that this post will be understood correctly either.
I guess we're just too different to communicate on any meaningful level.
Quote from: Vexing on January 12, 2011, 08:11:37 PM
I don't know where you're getting the idea that I don't like you; my feelings towards are totally neutral.
Don't like does not equal dislike.
Feel neutral equals neither like nor dislike.
So, if you feel neutral towards Shelly, it's literally true that you don't like her.
:P
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 12, 2011, 08:20:54 PM
Don't like does not equal dislike.
Feel neutral equals neither like nor dislike.
So, if you feel neutral towards Shelly, it's literally true that you don't like her.
:P
That's true!
I neither like her, nor dislike her.
But her statement was 'you don't like me' - which is true.
I guess my response then is 'I don't
dislike her'.
ya ya knaw ya prawbebly right!
Was that directly to your point!
and no WE are not unable to understand each other, I understand you very clearly.
Thank You!
Hey I heard a good joke the other day, you may like it!
Have you ever noticed that there's that "one" person at work that says everyone just loves them. but its really the opposite.
Well, if your happy that their isn't that type of person where you work.
Guess What?
You are that person!
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 09:02:35 PM
wow!
Don't know if my post was censored off.
or if it just didn't post for some reason.
Moderators, if I was censored and post removed, please let me know.
There have been no moderator edits in this topic. Ghosts in the machine ???
Alright ladies that is enough. I will not allow sniping at each other. If you want to be that way take it to PMs.
First and only warning.
And No, Shelly no one deleted your post.
Quote from: Nicky on January 12, 2011, 08:51:08 PM
There have been no moderator edits in this topic. Ghosts in the machine ???
probably a bug/glitch, it used to happen more often.
:police: Up until this point there have been no moderator edits. However that is only because I was asleep on the job and in my customary style I will now explain my reasoning.
ShellyVexing was undoubtedly wrong to needle you - and I will deal with her in a moment. However if we are going to settle this row I have to say that I think you were the originator - Since Feb the 11th Vexing has been initially politely asking you to clarify your original post. The line in question as I am sure you realise was this
Quote from: Just Shelly on January 11, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
One thing I struggle with is, an MTF saying she is not gay, she says, "I'm not gay, I like guys".
WHAT??? :o
Shelly
Now unless I am completely barmy the implications of that could be taken as follows:
1. you think an MtF who likes guys IS GAY
2. by implication you think an MtF is STILL MALE
Well then this row is clearly my fault because if I had bothered to analyse that statement in the first instance I might well have deleted your post and given you a 10 point warning right there because IF (and I will say if) that was your meaning you would have breached at very least the spirit of TOS rules 9. and 10 right there.
Quote9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
I see that you made a subsequent attempt to explain and when this was not understood you then resorted to accusing people of attacking you. Well look I'm sorry but it really wasn't clear what you meant even to me.
I was going to try and prune this thread - but I've had a go and realised that its far to complicated to do successfully without destroying the flow. However I wish to place on record that this line of thought is NOT acceptable.
VexingI have warned you before in other threads about walking away. I think that with your analytical mind you spotted the implied insult rather faster than I did. You reasonably asked for clarity and of course it did not come. That however is where you went wrong. At this point you best course would have been to either report of PM one of the Mod team with your thinking. What you should NOT do is then try to take matters into your own hands.
That only gets you into trouble. I have the power to remove or edit an offending post. You don't, and therefore when you try to deal with what you see as a breach of the rules all that you end up with is the kind of silly row that occurred, where once again a lot of the moderation team perceived you as the principle wrongdoer.
You have to understand perception is is everything in this world, and because of past history you now need to be whiter than white.
I know its irritating when you can see something an other people appear to be unaware of it. I know its irritating when you feel like Cassandra making predictions that no one will listen too, but that does not justify venting the frustration by verbally kicking your opponent.
This is the last time I will be warning you like this. And I have no doubt that some of of our membership with whom you have history may try to use that as an excuse to try and provoke you. All I can say is DON'T rise to it. I promise you that if we spot it happening they will be the ones getting the warning.
You, however need to remain calm and non provocative (and that includes your undoubted clever ripostes).
Thank you for you attention folks. :police:
Thank you Jenny, sorry if I got the name wrong.
I thank you and respect your reply.
I have tried to use this forum as well as one other in the past, mostly for support and understanding of MYSELF.
It seems though most are interested in little tid bits of gossip or trying to find reasons to disagree.
It seems at times I have a hard time articulating my thoughts in posts correctly at times. Believe it or not I proof read everything I post 2-3 times, for spelling, grammer and especially misinterpretation of my thoughts. I realize at sometimes I may word my questions like statements and this can get confusing. I struggle with this in my daily life as well. It seems people in general only listen half way, I have had many people repeat an idea or thought they have that I had just told them minutes ago.
yes I know this happens to other people at times also, with me though it seems its a regular pattern, all my life.
I would never purposely disagree with someones lifestyle, looks, eating habits, parenting skills and so on.......I teach my children to be accepting of all people Black, Gay, Asian, Over Weight, Rich, Poor,.............. you name it. At times I may privately disagree or question someones life style eg. "Geez, she could use, to loose a few pounds" I think all people do that at times. The difference with me is I would never say something like this to someones face, and I certainly would not treat this person any differently.
With stating all this in my defense, I'm sorry that you to did not understand my statement and took it as BASHING or disagreeing. If I even felt the slightest that I was disagreeing or especially bashing someone, I would immediately apologize and tell them my true intentions. I thought at first, maybe, I didn't articulate my thoughts very well in the post in question. After reading it again and again, I disagree. Could I have been more precise? maybe but I never viewed or defined my statement like some have, so I did not feel the need too.
I will not look up the definition of STRUGGGLE, my defination as it pertained in this post was lack of understanding, I did not say it was right or wrong. I also think "?" marks fairly state, I am questioning something, not making a statement. If I was to post WHAT!! I could understand someone questioning my thoughts.
I would of been deeply hurt by some of vexing's posts, if I didn't know her a little by now.
I think its a shame that one person clearly does not, or want to understand me and has made a point to misinterprete me at any chance she can.
Look at MY posts in the past. Is there a common thread? Maybe but it sure isn't bashing or one of disagreement.
Frankly I'm afraid to post anything in this forum for fear it may be misinterpreted.
When I come out, if someone was to say, "I really don't agree with what your doing" I'd say well thats your right and I will not try and convince you otherwise, I will just be who I am and hopfully you may become more accepting of me.
Now if:
Someone comes up to me and says "I'm struggling to understand what your doing" BAM we got dialog. To me they basically asked a question and are looking for answers. My first thing I would say is "your not the only one, I have struggled with myself for many years".
If this post comes across totally different then what my intentions are, then I guess I will no longer need to be a member. Because obviously I'm not the type needed here.
Thank You
Shelly
Right well look... Thank you for your clarification. I think I now understand better what you were trying to say, and clearly it wasn't entirely as it initially appeared.
The main point however is that when someone does not understand and asks for clarification as Vexing indeed did in her very first reply the best course of action is to give that clarification and then if that is not understood then perhaps ask a question of your own along the lines of "look sorry but I evidently don't understand what you are asking me to clarity here. Can you explain to me what precisely it is that you are concerned about?"
Now as to accusations that you are not welcome here. That is simply not true. Everyone is welcome to engage in the discussion as long as they do so in a reasonable manner. To assist in that process Susan has devised a set of rules by which we all stand or fall.
Now do we, the staff always get things right? No because we are human and fallible, but when we make a mistake we will always go back and try to put it right or if necessary apologise, as indeed I will do now if you feel that my first interpretation of your original post was unfair. I may indeed have got that wrong, but was trying to show you how the post "could" possibly be interpreted.
However, what I do have to point out is that the serious point behind all this is that this is a forum full of diverse people. We are not all going to be on the same wavelength - so sometimes misunderstandings will occur and it doesn't matter if its someone, with a history of shall we say bluntness, like vexing or a member of staff that you are dealing with. The response has to be the same, and jumping to the conclusion that someone is attacking you just because they ask questions is basically breaking the first part of rule 15 which states:
15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.
Now I hope we can all move on. In some ways this has been a rather ironic demonstration as to why in a diverse community like ours the civil war is indeed an ever present threat. Sometimes it is difficult to understand each other because while we are all similar we are also all quite different.
Which hopefully gets us at least marginally back on to the topic. So lets try and leave it there shall we?
the civil war is indeed an ever present threat.
Oh come on now. It may well be 'uncivil' in terms of some of the language - but this 'war' crap is really getting old and is always hyperbole. Like a war on drugs or something.
Fact is, and it's pretty simple... a huge section of the people who would really push things to that point are just typing words into blogs while still in their pajamas and living in mommies basement, they are not playing the real game (community, public understanding, politics) and they are not really going to matter.
"I'm amazed that american GLBT folk haven't started a civil war yet.. "
Because gay men in America are not about to give up their houses, good jobs, expensive cars and gaybies to fight people who really in the end have not much of anything. (Which is why they are so mad.)
Hubby's cleverer than I am, so it was more in jest than anything else.
Quote from: tekla on January 13, 2011, 01:33:44 PM
the civil war is indeed an ever present threat.
Fact is, and it's pretty simple... a huge section of the people who would really push things to that point are just typing words into blogs while still in their pajamas and living in mommies basement, they are not playing the real game (community, public understanding, politics) and they are not really going to matter.
This may be the first time I've agreed with anything you've said.
Beware of those of us who do know how to play the game......we eventually change things.
Quote from: transheretic on January 13, 2011, 02:12:04 PM
This may be the first time I've agreed with anything you've said.
Beware of those of us who do know how to play the game......we eventually change things.
Indeed as I helped to do in the UK when we helped get the Gender Recognition Act onto the statute books.
There were a lot of people involved, but Alison and I played our small part in the process and had some direct input into the resultant bill.