I am going to list two incidents here and hopefully some people will begin to understand why TS people are tired of being lumped in with this "All Gender Movement."
1. I have had a routine of going out with friends to a restaurant late at night on the weekends. Most of the time we will go to one of two Denny's in the Phoenix area. One of these Denny's is known to be the "gay Denny's." The other one is just a regular Denny's. Depending on what my friends and I decide to do we either go to one or the other so both have seen me for awhile as a regular customer. I have always presented female in these locations as well (even before going full time).
Close to six months ago, I went to one of these Denny's and there was an issue. I often use the bathroom while I'm there but this time I never even went in the bathroom. When I'm leaving, a new manager comes out and tells me that I cannot use the women's room. I argued with him and the next day called the higher-up manager who quickly resolved the issue. I still frequent both venues and have no issue since. That particular manager in question was immediately transferred to another Denny's but has recently returned to the original one in question. I can't say if that was coincidence or not. Guess which one the discrimination happened at? The gay Denny's. Want to know why? Because regularly a bunch of drag queens go there to eat who clearly look like men, talk like men, and act like men. A complaint had been generated about a man in the woman's restroom although the complaint was not directed towards me. Funny how at the other Denny's (the regular one) nobody has ever had an issue despite the fact that the servers (and likely a few regular customers) know I'm trans. Well I have been in this woman's room at the gay Denny's before only to witness cross-dressing/drag queen men enter it, talk in loud male voices, and then urinate in the toilet while standing. Then you wonder why genetic women get upset and now I'm being discriminated against because I'm being lumped into that category.
2. My employer has been working with me throughout my transition. My direct boss has been extremely helpful. My co-workers and superiors have gradually seen the changes such as my hair growing out, nail polish, female shoes, etc. They had seen me present full female on two Halloweens. When I knew it was getting close to going full time I mentioned it to the boss who was very supportive. HR made the decision that as long as I dress appropriately according to the female dress code then there is no concern. I cannot officially use a female name until it has been legally changed but co-workers are free to call me by my preferred name. I must use the men's room until I am ready to change to the women's room but that I should talk to HR first prior to doing so. My boss suggested after I went full time to give it some more time before switching bathrooms to make it easier for everyone to adjust. No problem.
Recently, I found out that I cannot use the women's room until I've had SRS. I told them I did not agree with that and that it needs to be looked into further. I met with HR who did seem very supportive, provided them with my diagnosis letter from my therapist, and they will talk to the corporate HR/legal department to see what they can do. The prospect looks good so I won't call this discrimination. But there is a reason there is even a question about it in the first place. Many years ago a man had been working there who suddenly decided out of the blue to show up as a female. From the reports that I heard he looked like a drag queen with exaggerated feminine appearances. The man goes right into the women's room and it causes people to get upset. This person was changing his gender on a near daily basis. For a couple of days he would be a woman and use the women's room, then for the rest of the week he would be a man and go to the men's room. He smarted off at managers and co-workers when they misgendered him. When it became an HR issue he got angry at them and demanded that he was being discriminated against. Thanks to this idiot I explained to HR that this is not just some hobby or phase that I'm in but that it's a medical condition and something permanent. Naturally it is harder for people to accept what I have as a legitimate medical condition when a man previously decides to make an unprofessional and inappropriate mockery of gender in the workplace.
Time and time again, this is why TS people can't get rights. Insurance companies consider SRS, hormones, therapy, etc. all cosmetic or optional. This is thanks again to people such as in the two examples above whose gender identity and expression are choices and behaviors, not medical conditions. It seems like every time me, another TS, or an IS is close to getting equal treatment someone from this "all gender movement" has to behave in a way that causes others to de-legitimize our needs and experiences. You can see it in the media as well. The public does not see a TS as just another woman on television. They think a TS is someone similar to the above examples.
The "accept everybody" movement does nothing to get people the equal rights they need. People who behave as mentioned above demanding acceptance when their behavior is not worthy of respect not only don't get accepted but cause those with legitimate needs to be discriminated against. Enough said.
Solution: Unisex Toilets.
I've often thought that those with gender incongruence fit better into the intersex group rather than the broader gender queer group.
Our intersex condition is a brain sex developmental condition that sees our brains out of line with the rest of our body.
Some people may not like the further medicalisation of our condition but in terms of legal rights, medical treatment and public acceptance I think it would help us greatly.
I don't know exactly what kind of anti-discrimination policies or state/local laws you have where you work but where I live at it is against the law to deny me the right to use the appropriate restroom at work for the gender which I identify as. Even though I work at a very liberal University which has an anti-discrimination policy that specifically mentions gender identity and expression I was told I wouldn't be able to use the ladies restroom until after surgery. I told them I have to live as a woman for one year before I am able to get surgery and women don't use the mens restroom. I also sent them a local law that basically showed them it was illegal to do this. They quickly resolved that situation! I was also told I could not change my name in my employee non-tax-records where once again the proof of surgery thing came up. Again, sent them the law and that was resolved.
I had a few problems getting the logistics of my transition completed but it didn't take long and everything is just fine now.
Check your companies anti-discrimination police as well as state and local laws and how it applies to the name change and bathroom situation.
Quote from: caitlin_adams on January 23, 2011, 02:32:47 AM
I've often thought that those with gender incongruence fit better into the intersex group rather than the broader gender queer group.
Our intersex condition is a brain sex developmental condition that sees our brains out of line with the rest of our body.
Some people may not like the further medicalisation of our condition but in terms of legal rights, medical treatment and public acceptance I think it would help us greatly.
And there is work being done by a team of researchers in Australia under Dr Vincent Harley that proves that for at least some of us it is PRECISELY that. The malfunctioning for MtFs (or for FtMs hyperfunctioning) of a small previously overlooked specialised Androgen receptor in the human brain which appears to control the initial formation of structure.
Of course the nurture brigade don't much like Dr Harley's work because it all but proved that, for some at least, the condition is totally hardwired and almost certainly not affected at all by nurture. ::)
But Yeah I think that whilst I accept fully everyone's right to exist and do what they have to, I do get tired of people who want to take it just that one step further and assume that therefore we are all the same.
None of us is any "more worthy" or more deserving of respect than the others, but we are clearly not all pursuing the same results nor indeed, I suspect, do we all have the same original motivation and medical causes.
Quote from: Britney_413 on January 22, 2011, 11:32:03 PMPeople who behave as mentioned above demanding acceptance when their behavior is not worthy of respect not only don't get accepted but cause those with legitimate needs to be discriminated against. Enough said.
Do you really think that your issues of being clocked as a man using a women's restroom is caused by Drag Queens and if they hadn't preceded you then everything would have been fine? There were better policies in place that they somehow ruined? A customer complained about the Drag Queens using that restroom, would that same customer let you slide because you're more polite?
While different than you, those people who are clowning around with drag are not your enemies. They most likely wouldn't discriminate against you. In their world bathrooms wouldn't be marked with a person in pants or a dress in the first place. That's a better world.
Quote from: Vexing on January 23, 2011, 01:05:31 AM
Solution: Unisex Toilets.
For the love of all that is holy, we need more unisex toilets.
If we didn't need to use the bathroom like everyone else we might have more rights and less discrimination. But we are too selfish and use the bathroom anyways.
QuoteNone of us is any "more worthy" or more deserving of respect than the others, but we are clearly not all pursuing the same results nor indeed, I suspect, do we all have the same original motivation and medical causes.
If you are talking about the different non-cisgendered identities, I agree with you. If you are talking about the behavior of individuals I disagree. I respect people worthy of respect and reject people worthy of contempt. I am not respecting someone who enters a women's restroom and stands to pee. I don't respect people who fail to flush the toilet or wash their hands either. This "accept everyone" movement has been taken too far. I don't accept inappropriate behavior, period. Diversity is great but not to the point where a society isn't allowed to have any cultural standards at all.
QuoteDo you really think that your issues of being clocked as a man using a women's restroom is caused by Drag Queens and if they hadn't preceded you then everything would have been fine? There were better policies in place that they somehow ruined? A customer complained about the Drag Queens using that restroom, would that same customer let you slide because you're more polite?
I was never clocked by anyone. I thought I mentioned that me being trans at both of these restaurants is an open secret. I don't parade it around but the regular customers and servers are aware of it. So it wasn't a being clocked issue. The issue was that someone was acting inappropriately in a restroom and the customer then blamed all trans people over that one individual.
I'd like to see more unisex bathrooms but that isn't going to be possible for a long time. In some buildings they work more effectively and in others they do not. I guess it is something for the architects to work out. Buildings where large numbers of bathrooms are needed would be far less efficient if they were all separate unisex stalls than separate men's and women's rooms. Other buildings could easily implement them. I'd like to see more unisex toilets but there are also logistical issues there.
Quote from: Britney_413 on January 23, 2011, 09:24:25 PM
Diversity is great but not to the point where a society isn't allowed to have any cultural standards at all.
If those standards are narrowly tailored only to discourage, prevent, or punish behavior that actually causes harm to others or deprives others of their natural human rights, then fine. But you are talking about gender segregation for its own sake, in a way that does not prevent harmful behavior, and that is harmful in its own right.
QuoteThe issue was that someone was acting inappropriately in a restroom and the customer then blamed all trans people over that one individual.
The issue is that the manager deprived you of your natural right to use the restroom of your choice because of a senseless and harmful cultural taboo, and yet you choose to blame another victim of that taboo who was exhibiting harmless behavior.
Britany;
You offer no remedy to your issue.
You mearly complain about anouther segment of the gender nonconforming population.
That makes the original post a troll.....
Yes drag queens act like men....they are men. But why would one choose to use the womens room instead of the mens?
Bigotry. They have no desire to have their ass kicked anymore than you or I do. Keep in mind they are just as vulnerable to bigotry as a TS if not more due to poor passing skills.
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 24, 2011, 08:27:50 AM
If those standards are narrowly tailored only to discourage, prevent, or punish behavior that actually causes harm to others or deprives others of their natural human rights, then fine. But you are talking about gender segregation for its own sake, in a way that does not prevent harmful behavior, and that is harmful in its own right.
The issue is that the manager deprived you of your natural right to use the restroom of your choice because of a senseless and harmful cultural taboo, and yet you choose to blame another victim of that taboo who was exhibiting harmless behavior.
Heart heart heart. OP has posted several threads being critical to different flavors of TG without the perception that we all have to stick together. Heck, we're lucky that T is tacked on to GBLT despite plenty of GBL's feeling it's holding them back. I fell in love with Susan's because it really represents the broad range of TG, 50% of whom are completely new flavors to me. It's given me a lot of empathy and understanding.
Quote from: Artisan010 on January 23, 2011, 09:47:01 PM
Generally accepted principles (and some case law) says that you are to use the restroom of the gender you are presenting,
When a person stands to piss in the bathroom or speaks in a masculine voice, this is NOT PRESENTING as female. To complain about it is to stand up for the rights of those who do present as female. Yes, a drag queen would not be safe in a men's bathroom and she is safe in a women's bathroom because we do not beat them up. But it IS okay if we complain! They need to know that their behavior is not welcome. For them to behave in such a manner is to abuse patriarchal privilege. Think of the reverse. Would any transman use a feminine voice in the men's bathroom? It would not be safe to do so. It angers me to hear a man's voice in the women's restroom and not because it hurts the cause of transwomen, though sometimes it might. It angers me because I am a cisgendered female and I have rights too!
I have no desire to split the trans community over issues of bathroom use or anything else. But let it be known that bathroom etiquette is not something that we need to throw out the window. At conventions, the moderators always speak to sitting to pee; they forget to mention refrain from talking. It's a simple courtesy; not a travesty of transgender rights.
"I'm being discriminated against because I'm being lumped into that category" says Britney. I hear you. It is frustrating, but the only answer is education and you are in the trenches with that. Thank you for your work. Try not to take it out on the gender community that is not TS; some may actually be TS for one thing; the others need educating too.
Whew...kind of a hot topic for me. :-\
Ruby
Just because there are so many flavors of TG does not mean I am a gender deconstructionist. There IS a such thing as gender. As much as I am a strong libertarian who believes in freedom and limited controls, that doesn't mean I believe there should be no cultural values at all. I don't think that the gender movement to get cis people to accept TG people should result in a movement for gender deconstructionism. I favor unisex bathrooms under two conditions: a) that they are strictly single door facilities (not just stall door but large physical door) and b) that they make sense architecturally for the building design. Architects consider what is needed, the cost, and space. They may not be efficient in all buildings. Gender is a sensitive issue regardless of whether it is cisgendered or transgendered we are talking about. If people are supporting unisex bathrooms where groups of men and women are all using the same sinks, stalls, etc. that is not somthing I support. Just because I accept diversity doesn't mean I support a complete deconstruction of identity. I don't want men in the bathroom with me, period. It may not be a popular view here but I think gender segregation in the bathrooms designed for multiple people to use at a time is a good thing. People have the right to complain about inappropriate behavior. Again, I don't believe we should lower the standards in society to the point where there are none at all. I don't care if a blatant drag queen uses the women's room. Sit down on the damn toilet and act accordingly. Besides, if the sign on the door says "WOMEN" then you should at least act somewhat like one. But all the gender deconstructionists will continue to disagree I'm sure. I do not buy into this "There is no such thing as gender" BS. People do have genders, people vary across gender lines, but it isn't just one big soup.
I agree with Britney,
There are standards of manners and protocol. OK I don't have a problem with DQ using the female loo, or DK's the male. But you act appropriately. It is just a matter of good manners, and manners are the oil that keep society moving. I would be offended if 'guys' came into the ladies loo and acted in such a way. And no I don't think my complaint would be sexist, I also get very annoyed by woman who don't know how to dispose of tampons or who leave mess on the seat. It's a matter of respect for other people and I do think that is important.
JMO
Cindy
I strongly disagree with requiring anyone to adhere to one of the two gender stereotypes in order to use the restoom. I think people have a natural human right to present in a manner that defies gender stereotypes, and use any public restroom they please.
For those of you who think it is inapproprite for a bio male, dressed as female and talking like a man, to use the women's room, how is it more appropriate for that person then to use the men's room? Do you think that they deserve to be harassed no matter which restroom they use? People who don't conform to gender stereotypes deserve to be harassed? Really?
As for gender segregated bathrooms being "good," group unisex restrooms are very common in Europe, and they are growing in popularity. All new public schools in the UK are being built with group unisex restrooms because the studies have shown that people are better behaved, and they are less likely to be used as common rooms. The group unisex restrooms at the Mall of America have also shown good results.
I think it's high time that we, as a society, honestly reevaluate whether gender segregation is ever a good thing, or ever was a good thing.
As for me, as far as I'm concerned, the gender designation on a public restroom is just a suggestion, and I know that is actually the law in some states. I think it should be the law everywhere.
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 25, 2011, 08:13:46 AM
I think it's high time that we, as a society, honestly reevaluate whether gender segregation is ever a good thing, or ever was a good thing.
I agree. I see very little advantage over having two segregated restrooms, versus one very larger unisex room with double the facilities.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 25, 2011, 08:41:03 AM
I agree. I see very little advantage over having two segregated restrooms, versus one very larger unisex room with double the facilities.
Whilst I can see the theoretical appeal I can only observe that in some places the men would have to radically improve their personal hygiene and toilet habits before this became an acceptable option.
Because of my odd past I only really used male "facilities" between the ages of about 17 and 23. My over-riding memory was of how SMELLY and disgusting male toilets smelled. Honestly those places universally STANK! To say nothing of the condition of the toilet seats etc.
Now I know that some ladies restrooms leave something to be desired in this area and indeed that not all toilet seats are clean - but honestly the problem is a whole order of magnitude less than when there are men involved.
I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.
Quote from: cynthialee on January 25, 2011, 08:56:29 AM
I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.
Quite probably - it is mainly my perception of odour that is responsible.
I can smell male urine, for me it always has been super pungent.
Female urine, though it does have an odour, is much much much less offensive.
In the same way I have always been able to "smell" men, and indeed accurately identify peoples belongings by their scent on them... It's quite a neat party trick, although in this instance possibly colours my perceptions.
I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.
Word.
I worked and ran maintenance crews for clubs and theaters and the women's room was almost (not 100%, but in the 90%s) far messier than the men's room is. Furthermore its a class deal, the more lower class the mens room patrons were the more diminished the ability or will to aim, but the more upper class the women were, look out!
Well I guess we agree to disagree. I do not support a gender deconstruction of society like that which Transgender, Inc. is pushing for. There still are two sexes with the exception of intersexed individuals. I'm not going to ignore obvious science and common sense. Obviously there is gender variance in society such as crossdressers and people who identify as a third gender or prefer to identify as genderless. Then we have those who were strictly born in the wrong body. Society can and should accept this without completely deconstructing gender. I do not support unisex bathrooms unless only one individual can use them at a time. I do not want men in the bathroom with me, period. I don't know why any woman would cis or trans. I don't care if a poorly passable transwoman or crossdresser enters the women's room, if they are making no attempt to act as a woman (i.e. with appropriate mannerisms and sitting DOWN on the toilet) they should not be using women's facilities.
I do not believe that workplaces or businesses should be forced to give up dress codes either. There are plenty of professions where it is not appropriate do dress certain ways. My job basically doesn't care how I dress as long as it abides by EITHER the women's or the men's dress code. What is happening here is that people are attempting to completely destroy the concept of gender and culture overall and that is damaging. There are still two sexes (with the exception mentioned above). It seems like some people want to be able to do anything they want and be entitled to acceptance which is simply not the case. I take a libertarian approach in that I believe that you should be able to live how you like but I do not believe you are entitled to any kind of results. A restaurant can require you to wear a shirt while entering. Likewise a restaurant has a right to require that if someone presenting as a female enters the women's toilet that they sit down. I don't care if I get flamed for this I do not believe that gender should be removed from society altogether because an extreme minority wants to identify as a third gender or genderless.
Quote from: Britney_413 on January 26, 2011, 02:15:38 AMI don't care if I get flamed for this I do not believe that gender should be removed from society altogether because an extreme minority wants to identify as a third gender or genderless.
Of course you don't care if you get flamed. You're the one who starts the post critical of other transpeople. You've done it across a couple threads. You're very judgmental and it's clear that you are working hard to be a woman and need that hard line to cross. There are a lot of transwomen who want to be called Tiffany or whatever and work as airlines stewardesses or 50s housewives. I empathize with their struggle, even if I don't understand it. We live outside of the norm. Some want to stay outside of the norm, some want to assimilate back in. Some have a very institutionalized moral core, some don't. I ask that you don't try to get flamed. That you try empathy even when you don't have understanding. If you don't have empathy for the people you've criticized..the sex workers, the drag queens, etc. etc. who can?
We're all real live human beings and they are not your enemy. If you're going to point out people who cause you discrimination, there is a long line before you get to Drag Queens. Talk about the people you should really be afraid of. The people who would murder you as soon as look at you just because you're a pervert or abomination. The people who wouldn't hire you, wouldn't rent to you, wouldn't treat you for illness.
Drag Queens in bathrooms? You're barking up the wrong she.
Japple, you are making assumptions here. I am not "trying" to be a woman, I already am. I am also making no attempt to fit gender stereotypes. In many ways I am not all that feminine. Internal sex/gender is not the same as expressed feminine/masculine behavior. Plenty of transwomen are butch lesbians but they are still neurologically women. This is something many crossdressing men don't understand. A man getting all girly once a week does not make him a woman. This failure to distinguish feminine expression from neurological brain sex identity is a big part of thes problem. I never have had anything against CDs or other groups but do not want to be lumped into the same category as them nor do I want them lumping themselves into ours. This isn't bigotry but the right to protect one's identity.
Quote from: cynthialee on January 25, 2011, 08:56:29 AM
I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.
This.
Although another poster is right, there is a class difference. In general, men's rooms in upscale establishments are pristine, while your average dive bar men's room is really dingy and looks like you don't really want to touch anything below waist level. But working-class women tend to be quite clean, while upscale ladies' rooms are usually revolting.
That said, there's a pretty big difference in the type of disgusting. With men, it's just a little bit of "My aim's not so great when I'm drunk, and sometimes I like to carve things in the stall walls while I'm taking a dump" whereas with women it's an "I'm too good to clean up after myself, and I'm too good to sit on a public toilet seat, so I'm going to leave piss on every surface and paper products soaked in bodily fluids all over the place so that some poor minimum-wage (probably nonwhite) worker can clean up after me later."
Quote from: Britney_413 on January 26, 2011, 03:50:17 AM
hopefully some people will begin to understand why TS people are tired of being lumped in with this "All Gender Movement."
...
I never have had anything against CDs or other groups but do not want to be lumped into the same category as them nor do I want them lumping themselves into ours.
It sounds to me like you are advocating the separation of transexuals from under the Transgender umbrella term. Is that the case?
Quote from: glendagladwitch on January 26, 2011, 07:57:44 AM
It sounds to me like you are advocating the separation of transexuals from under the Transgender umbrella term. Is that the case?
:police: With respect I must
officially rule that question invalid as you are effectively inviting another user to violate forum TOS rule 10. Thus:
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
- Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
- Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
I must therefore advise Britney_413 either not to answer or if she does to be
very careful what she says.
Inviting a user to incriminate themselves under forum rules would also in my opinion effectively be a breach of the spirit of those rules in itself. They are, after all, designed to protect users.
So please both of you please be careful how you progress your current respective lines of thought as you are both walking the line at present. Thank you. :police:
Jenny it is obvious Glenda is just trying to get the poster to publicly admit what we already know about her. She is a trans elietist/seperatist.
just sayin'
Quote from: cynthialee on January 26, 2011, 09:56:15 AM
Jenny it is obvious Glenda is just trying to get the poster to publicly admit what we already know about her. She is a trans elietist/seperatist.
just sayin'
Yes I know - and therein lies the dilemma, because you still can't openly incite her to proclaim it. If she does it of her own accord then that is another thing altogether and we will deal with it accordingly, but if someone else has incited the comment then that is effectively entrapment, and I can't see that it is fair.
I don't like separatism any more than you do, but my job as a moderator is to be scrupulously fair to all. Sorry.
In any case this is an official moderator decision - it is not up for discussion or debate as per rule 2 and rule 20 - if I am mistaken then I am sure that another member of staff will look at it and put me straight.
I do not support a gender deconstruction of society like that which Transgender, Inc. is pushing for.
I doubt that outside of a few blogs and a couple of papers at the MLA (neither of which is anyone really paying any attention to) that anyone is advocating this. A 'gender blind' society perhaps.
Quote from: Britney_413 on January 26, 2011, 02:15:38 AMI don't care if a poorly passable transwoman or crossdresser enters the women's room, if they are making no attempt to act as a woman (i.e. with appropriate mannerisms and sitting DOWN on the toilet) they should not be using women's facilities.
By "appropriate mannerisms" you mean the ones based on "science and common sense" that you mentioned earlier?
After all, it would be terrible if these mannerisms were just arbitrary, and weren't based on science, but were only developed by the prejudice of society.
Heck, I'm hanging in here to find out how you can advocate 'personal responsibility' and yet blame other people at the same time. Perhaps it's that 'freedom for me, but not for thee' deal.
Being pretty new here, it's interesting to me how this thread has jumped from "I'm tired of this..." to a discussion of the utopian bathroom, and then on to destroying the trans umbrella, with moderators, thankfully stepping in to squash that one.
I would back up for a moment to my comment that any male presenting as female and yet willing to out themselves in a women's restroom is operating under the societal structure called "patriarchal privilege." No one commented on this. Are there any feminists out there?
I hereby vow to say something to men such as these when I encounter them (which has only happened once to me, and startled me so much I was speechless). Something to the effect of "Excuse me, could you please take your conversation outside the women's restroom? For myself, I am pretty used to men presenting as women since my partner is trans, but lots of other women use this restroom. It can be upsetting to them to hear your male voices. Please leave."
While this feels scary to me, it seems to me that this sort of activism is called for. While I agree that the new European model of group unisex bathrooms may ultimately be a good way to improve the overall behavior of all genders, in the meantime, we have to live with the behavior of those in our community who are, arguably, misbehaving. Those of us who are seeing the problem have a responsibility to speak up.
I was tempted to throw in "Your behavior is not representing the trans community very favorably", but I decided to refrain from inviting political discussion in the bathroom and keep it on a more personal level. Please share your thoughts on whether you feel it appropriate to speak directly to those creating the problem and what you might say if you did.
I wish to point out again that a transmen would never do this, not only because he would be in physical danger, but because he is not operating under "patriarchal privilege". He has been brought up to keep the feeling of others well in his scope.
Ruby
An excellent post Ruby - which I have to say I entirely agree with. Perhaps the only caveat that I would put on this is that it is easy for me, and you whose voices never broke to sound female. For some it can be quite difficult.
Quote from: Ruby on January 25, 2011, 12:18:28 AM
When a person stands to piss in the bathroom or speaks in a masculine voice, this is NOT PRESENTING as female.
So if a FTM sits to pee and speaks in a non-masculine voice, is he 'NOT presenting as male'?
More to the point; should all MTFs with deep voices and an aversion to touching dirty toilet seats with their buttocks be forced to use the male toilets?
I'm concerned that a cis person is expressing these opinions on here.
What experience do you have of being a trans woman using the female bathrooms?
Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 26, 2011, 09:17:16 PM
So if a FTM sits to pee and speaks in a non-masculine voice, is he 'NOT presenting as male'?
More to the point; should all MTFs with deep voices and an aversion to touching dirty toilet seats with their buttocks be forced to use the male toilets?
I'm concerned that a cis person is expressing these opinions on here.
What experience do you have of being a trans woman using the female bathrooms?
I think something else that's missing here is that people dressed in women's clothing, whatever their anatomy, are completely justified in thinking that it may be unsafe to use the men's room. This includes crossdressers and drag queens, even if they're not fully passable or intending to pass.
To the poster arguing that it's "patriarchal privilege" to use the ladies' room as a visible male: Quite the contrary. It's a
result of patriarchal privilege and hetero cis male normativity that these visible males feel compelled to use the ladies' room.
And I prioritize a crossdresser's, drag queen's, or visible trans woman's right to be free from being raped or assaulted far,
far above a cis or passable trans woman's right to be free from hearing masculine voices in the ladies' room, any day, any time, no questions asked.
Anytime anyone is priortizing 'rights' I either feel like puking or playing The Horst-Wessel-Lied. When ANY group claims a greater 'priority' on rights, history always records the same results.
Quote from: rejennyrated on January 26, 2011, 06:04:48 PM
An excellent post Ruby - which I have to say I entirely agree with. Perhaps the only caveat that I would put on this is that it is easy for me, and you whose voices never broke to sound female. For some it can be quite difficult.
Yes, it can be difficult. But how difficult is it to not speak if you simply need to take a pee? It's fine to use the restroom, but don't they might be treating it like it is their personal parlour.
And thanks for the compliment on my post.
I will disagree Tekla.
The right to feel comfortable is definatly trumped by the right to not be raped, beaten or killed.
Quote from: cynthialee on January 26, 2011, 10:08:59 PM
I will disagree Tekla.
The right to feel comfortable is definatly trumped by the right to not be raped, beaten or killed.
+9000
Quote from: kyril on January 26, 2011, 09:35:21 PM
To the poster arguing that it's "patriarchal privilege" to use the ladies' room as a visible male: Quite the contrary.
You misunderstood me. I did not say that they did not have a right to use the ladies room. I said they should act like a lady when doing so and that by not acting like a lady they are abusing their male privilege, or more likely being completely unaware of it.
I should amend my request to ask them to leave, to "use the facilities and then leave" (ie, don't hang around talking!)
Quote from: Ruby on January 26, 2011, 10:07:40 PM
Yes, it can be difficult. But how difficult is it to not speak if you simply need to take a pee? It's fine to use the restroom, but don't they might be treating it like it is their personal parlour.
This post makes it obvious that you've never experienced any terror, awkwardness or worry over the simple act of peeing in the women's facilities.
You're trying to assert your normalised cis experiences of using the bathroom onto trans women's use of the bathroom.
You have no idea of the psychological makeup of the person you're potentially blackballing for daring to
speak in the women's facilities. She could be nervous/scared to all hell due to presenting as a woman for the first time and speaking is a coping mechanism to alleviate stress.
Your privilege is showing.
Quote from: Ruby on January 26, 2011, 10:14:52 PM
You misunderstood me. I did not say that they did not have a right to use the ladies room. I said they should act like a lady when doing so and that by not acting like a lady they are abusing their male privilege, or more likely being completely unaware of it.
Do we also get to kick out cis women who don't act like a 'lady'?
Nice try, but F. There is no right to rape, or beat, or kill people (except for The State - and they only get to beat and kill - and I'd even disagree with that one). That's a poor argument that totally misses the point.
As for the Patriarchy, that's just feminist talk, jive really, for avoiding the real point, which in the US is not about gender at all, it's all about social class. But most feminists HATE talking about class, because most of them are privileged by that to begin with. That is their empowerment, the colleges and university educations that cost $38,640 a year.* To wit:
{ed. note: these statistics are for the USA only, they might differ in other places in the world, if we even realized that there were other places in the world.}
In the US, women are more likely to finish high school. Hence they are more likely to be employed in higher paying jobs. Don't believe me? Of course not, so here are the latest numbers.
Women make up 51% of the workforce and hold the majority of management jobs. In major cities young women make 17% more than their male counterparts (for single childless persons of the age 22-30, if you want to be filled with baby sauce every year or so, that's your own fault). Two-thirds of advanced degrees go to women, and women now earn 60% of all Bachelor's degrees The steady decrease of manufacturing jobs in the United States disproportionately affects male workers. So that women are now earning as much as men are.
A female friend of mine told me once that the problem was that a great deal of the Feminist movement had become so aimless and concerned exclusively with gender bashing that it's driving away women who are legitimately concerned with equal treatment by the law, better jobs and educational opportunities and are willing to work together with men AS EQUALS. And to the degree that people keep up the patriarchal argument, they are not advancing anything, save class privilege, which perhaps, was the real goal after all.
To speak of patriarchal privileges in the US, with out talking about social and economic class is like Rock without the Roll.
* - Smith, but look up the other Seven Sisters and you'll find comparative amounts of tuition.
That's all very interesting; but why don't you quote us the stats for the numbers of female senators, politicians, CEOs and big business owners?
Damn, there's that pesky 'glass ceiling' getting in the way again.
Oh I don't know, seems to me the last two major Republican candidates for public office in California were both ex-CEOs. And 17 senators, including both of the ones from California.
Thanks for everyone's replies. First, I am going to take a conservative and libertarian approach to this. The libertarian in me basically says people should be able to do whatever they want. The conservative in me says that people should and should not do certain things. In other words just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Let's start with addressing unisex bathrooms:
I do not feel comfortable using a restroom designed for multiple people at once consisting of both men and women in the same room. Several posts here have already started talking about the dangers of someone presenting female using a man's restroom. Putting men and women together is likely going to cause the situation to go from bad to worse. Maybe it does work in parts of Europe. I'm talking about the U.S. anyway where the culture just isn't the same. Now if a building wants to have a man's room, woman's room, AND unisex room then that is fine. When a building is constructed, bathrooms are planned by anticipated need. It may not be feasible to have unisex bathrooms in all buildings. I do not support unisex-only bathrooms as I think women and men should be entitled to their own spaces.
Second, I don't exactly approve of the finger pointing done not only against me but also the cis woman on this board. Too often minority groups like to blame the majority for their problems. While technically that may be true it doesn't garner acceptance. I routinely hear in GLBT and non-white circles the term "straight white male" used as if these people are the cause of their problems. People have to understand that when you live in a society you have to some degree learn to work with that society. Society is predominately cis, white, and straight. Equal rights does not come about by turning around and routinely scapegoating the majority class when many members of that class are already supportive of the minority's need or are making an attempt to be. Different groups have their own culture. There is a majority culture, however. I believe in multiculturalism but I do not believe in completely deconstructing a majority culture just because of a minority group that is different. So I'm trans, big deal, but I am living in a cis society and always will. I will fight for my rights but without trying to change an entire culture. In this case we are talking about the culture of gender.
Third, the point about TG and TS. Well again I take a libertarian approach on this. It is up to the individual. I have always been about the rights of individuals. Everyone has free speech and can label themselves or others however they like. People can associate or not associate. It is freedom. There is something unique about TS that doesn't generally apply to the other types of TG though. For the purposes of my argument I'm defining TS as the medical definition of having a brain of one sex and a body of the other. If you identify as a TV, CD, or GQ for instance or are simply questioning then you may identify under the TG umbrella. You are either identifying as genderless, a third gender, questioning gender, or transcending gender lines. So you may call yourself TG or find a fit under the umbrella. Now if you are say an MTF TS and you go from being of the male sex to transitioning to the female sex (with or without surgery) then you will generally go one of two routes. One route is to always identify as TS acknowledging your pre-transition, transition, and post-transition and therefore will consider yourself part of TG. The other track is like strictly crossing an ocean in an airplane. There was a time you were on the male side of the ocean then you realized you were transsexual. You identified as TS and therefore TG while you were crossing that ocean. Once you became socialized as a woman (and perhaps legally and medically as well) you then simply identify as a woman, not a transsexual and therefore not transgendered at all. It was a temporary state and a temporary identity.
It should therefore be no surprise why so many people on this forum once they get SRS are never seen or heard from again. They moved on. It is a personal decision and that is how it should remain. What I will always speak out against is any kind of forced inclusion. I do not believe that a TS should be forced to be tied to the TG label and identity. As my therapist said "trans" is short for "transition." It is crossing from one place to the next. But again I take a libertarian approach. I'm not going to tell anyone what they can and cannot call themselves but at the same time I am not going to support social engineering designed to force or blend different groups together when individuals within them would prefer to retain their own separate identities.
Quote from: tekla on January 26, 2011, 11:41:29 PM
Oh I don't know, seems to me the last two major Republican candidates for public office in California were both ex-CEOs. And 17 senators, including both of the ones from California.
That's nice, as compared to how many males, total? :)
What is the ratio of female CEOs to male CEOs? What is the ratio of women senators to male senators?
I recall quoting you the stats on America's woeful representation of women in power just last month in fact. IIRC it was something like 16% - worse than
Khazakstan.
Humour me here, how many female presidents have you had?
Since this thread has become a multi-topic discussion, I would like to reiterate the points on practical problems of gendered bathrooms which I do not believe have been adequately addressed by the people promoting the enforcement of certain behaviors in gendered bathrooms.
These questions have not been properly answered:
Quote from: VexingSo if a FTM sits to pee and speaks in a non-masculine voice, is he 'NOT presenting as male'?
Quote from: VexingMore to the point; should all MTFs with deep voices and an aversion to touching dirty toilet seats with their buttocks be forced to use the male toilets?
Quote from: VexingDo we also get to kick out cis women who don't act like a 'lady'?
I have an issue with the opposition completely ignoring this particular question, as I know a cis woman who hates acting "like a lady" and has always hated acting "like a lady" ever since she started calling herself a Tomboy back in her school days. She likes to act masculine, and she wears men's clothes as much as she can.
Do we get to kick her out of the women's room for wearing guy clothes and acting masculine? And if so, which restroom does she get to use, seeing as how she will most likely not pass for a male if she were to try to use the men's room? If she did try to use the men's room (which I'm sure she absolutely would not want to do) she would probably get kicked out of that room as well. If both the men and the women do not accept her, then logically she deserves to use neither the men's nor the women's room. She just has to hold it until she finds a unisex room (which are almost non-existent around here). Am I correct? Have I missed something here? Is it morally justified that she should be forced to hold it until she ->-bleeped-<-s her pants? This seems to be what Ruby and others are saying. If she is violating both gender norms, then she should not be allowed to use any restroom.
I think Vexing and myself deserve an answer to the question of which bathroom she should be forced to use.
Quote from: kyrilI think something else that's missing here is that people dressed in women's clothing, whatever their anatomy, are completely justified in thinking that it may be unsafe to use the men's room. This includes crossdressers and drag queens, even if they're not fully passable or intending to pass.
To the poster arguing that it's "patriarchal privilege" to use the ladies' room as a visible male: Quite the contrary. It's a result of patriarchal privilege and hetero cis male normativity that these visible males feel compelled to use the ladies' room.
I agree with Kyril's interpretation of male privilege over Ruby's. It is precisely because of the idea of male privilege that makes anyone who doesn't think they will pass as male want to use a different bathroom. And since most places don't have a unisex room, then the women's bathroom is the only other bathroom that they can possibly use.
@ Ruby and Britney_413
Some people clearly do not pass as either male or female (people in drag who are not trying to pass are a good example). Did it ever occur to you that guys will probably kick them out of the men's room as quickly as you dismiss them out of the women's room? Which bathroom exactly are they supposed to use? They will face discrimination no matter which bathroom they try to use. Why should they have any more reason to use the men's room than the women's room, and why should they allow themselves to get kicked out of one room only to get kicked out of the next? What motive do these people have to leave the women's room, and what reasonable justification do they have for leaving if they will face the exact same treatment in the men's room?
Just to add some anecdata to this discussion:
Roughly 3 years before I transitioned, I went to a 'School Disco' themed part at the Black Harp pub in Wellington, New Zealand.
Because I relished the opportunity to cross-dress, I went in school girl drag (I have the pictures at home somewhere; I'll post one later). Most people were cool with me. Some people were not. I overheard a couple of aggressive males stating that they would 'get the ->-bleeped-<-got' when I went to the bathroom and they kept a watch over me until I needed to go.
I was at the disco with my pal Pixie (a cis woman) and she simply said "Use the chick's bathroom with me."
So she escorted me to the women's bathroom, we peed, then I checked my makeup in the mirror and answered a couple of questions that Pix asked me. I heard from one stall "Is that's a man's voice in here?" and Pix replied "She's with me", which seemed to resolve the situation.
Now, I could have followed Ruby's suggestion and used the men's room.
Ruby, would you take responsibility for the ->-bleeped-<--kicking and medical bills resulting from me using the male facilities while dressed as a school girl?
Or is the HORROR of hearing a male voice in the female toilets reason enough for grievous bodily harm?
Interesting story. Did you sit down to pee?
Quote from: japple on January 23, 2011, 03:30:28 AM
While different than you, those people who are clowning around with drag are not your enemies.
I think they are our enemies. That's the sentiment expressed in the movie
Better than Chocolate, in the song
I'm Not a Fuc&ing Drag Queen. I don't care if they are doing it in the Denny's bathroom or on stage in a club. People equate this with that, and it messes us up.
Drag needs to go the way of Blackface. It's archaic, obsolete and insulting. Except on Halloween.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 25, 2011, 08:41:03 AM
I agree. I see very little advantage over having two segregated restrooms, versus one very larger unisex room with double the facilities.
Where do you live? Here in the States, men and women seem to have substantially different standards of bathroom cleanliness.
There is a reasonable limit to inclusiveness. Just because it's a restroom, I don't want dogs to come in an pee on the floor. I don't need drunken, careless men doing it either; or to open a stall door and find piss all over the seat. Or a guy in the next stall crapping out a half a side of beef.
Quote from: ▼Ξ✖ on January 26, 2011, 09:17:16 PM
More to the point; should all MTFs with deep voices and an aversion to touching dirty toilet seats with their buttocks be forced to use the male toilets?
I am going with yes on the sit part, because women have to do it. Carry some seat liners in your purse if you want.
Now, the voice thing, I can't see getting upset about that. No matter what voice you have, if you're speaking like a woman, that should not be overly alarming to a cisgender woman who might be in there.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on January 27, 2011, 06:05:36 PM
I am going with yes on the sit part, because women have to do it. Carry some seat liners in your purse if you want.
And so trans guys must part their flaps and piss at the urinal?
I was discussing womens' room etiquette. I don't much care what transmen do in the mens' room.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on January 27, 2011, 06:39:53 PM
I don't much care what transmen do in the mens' room.
Clearly.
I am locking this thread, at least temporarily, because it is devolving into petty bickering and sniping. If y'all can't disagree and still maintain a modicum of civility, then I suggest that you take a break and do something else for a little while.
Thread unlocked.
I would like to point out that lots of people use women's restrooms who don't act like stereotypical "ladies."
And a few stand up to pee because they are more comfortable that way.
Quite a few men use the men's room and sit down to pee.
I feel that it's nobody's business how other people do their "business."
I suspect that universal unisex toilets are a long way off, in the U.S., at least.
Quote from: tekla on January 25, 2011, 09:09:02 AM
I have been a janitor before for a short stint.
Most the time the ladies is much more gross than the mens.
Word.
I worked and ran maintenance crews for clubs and theaters and the women's room was almost (not 100%, but in the 90%s) far messier than the men's room is. Furthermore its a class deal, the more lower class the mens room patrons were the more diminished the ability or will to aim, but the more upper class the women were, look out!
Hovergirls. Pee all over everything!
Quote from: Dana Lane on January 29, 2011, 03:10:00 PM
Hovergirls. Pee all over everything!
Isn't that a makeup brand?
Isn't that a makeup brand?
Must be the make-up brand preferred by California Girls, the one's with the Revlon Dashboard who are not only driving in heavy commute traffic, over bridges with narrow lanes, (in their BMW) but doing their eyeshadow too. And on the phone. Did I forget the 'on the phone' part?