I think that in light of another thread that got quite volatile, that those of us who identify as androgyne need to have a discussion, hopefully with people who are not androgyne, about what it means to us and how we approach terminology.
The first thing I want to say is that androgyne is NOT binary. More than anything, we are neither men nor women. We identify as something in between and there may not be two of us who identify exactly the same way, which leads to a plethora of terms and a proverbial "term dressing room," where we try out term after term until we find the one that fits us best. In the long run, androgyne is an umbrella term for those of us in the middle.
The second thing I want to point out is that the terms "male/female," as used on this forum, often refer to the physical body. We aren't male gendered or female gendered, so to describe our gender with those terms would be odd. This is what was at the heart of the other thread, I think: the misunderstanding of the usage of the word "male." That is what I got from it, anyway.
The specific term that caused so much trouble was "male lesbian." I understand why someone would be offended by this, but it is important to understand the term being used from the androgyne perspective. As I understood it from the OP's posts, they are a male bodied person who identifies more with lesbians than any other group of people...they feel like a lesbian, but they have a male body.
Androgynes may identify with members of the other physical sex without wanting to do anything to their bodies. I identify much more with gay men than any other group of people, but I don't want to change my body with hormones or surgery.
It's simply a different perspective.
Thoughts?
I thought male lesbian made no sense whatsoever. The way you describe it, I get where you're coming from but it is only on the edge of making sense. I leave it to you and anyone else to describe themselves in anyway they choose.
Well, the way I look at it, the terms we choose probably means something different to each person. I know the OP had read the definition in a book and they identified with that definition; that more or less puts fault with the author, not the OP. It is also my understanding that it was the beginning of this person's journey, so I certainly think a great deal more understanding and latitude should have been granted to them. Rather than offering up a better term (or even more appropriately, actually answering the OP's question), a few people were extremely hostile toward the OP and derailed the thread entirely from the first response. It also happens that it was mostly not androgynes who were doing that, but others who identify in the binary...hence the need for deeper understanding.
The main point of this thread is to explain 1.) how we approach the terms male and female (among others) and 2.) to emphasize understanding rather than allowing ourselves to be offended by something that was not meant offensively.
Warning, im only a novice, so quite often dont have a clue what im on about! Cant quite work out what a male lesbian is supposed to be, guess i could be one as in the bedroom department i just see my wife and i as two woman, with me having a"rea"l dildo attached. The same things that turn woman on does the same trick for me too,but outside the bedroom that as far as me being lesbian goes. I dont really get on with actual lesbians as a lot of the ones i have met have come across as being a bit masculine and i spend half my life trying to get away from being that.
No question, we have a different take on alot of gender terminology, but it is tough to pin down exact meanings- even with androgyne itself. I self identfy as bigender. I am definitely not a girl, not a guy either, and I'm not in the middle because I see myself and male AND female. Even among bigendered folk, the variation in how differently you can be male and female staggers the mind!
Im fluid androgone (spelling?) I am whatever I feel like on that particular day, be it female, male or somewhere inbetween. I dont understand male lesbian either, I view that as more of a sexuality identity, but whatever they feel comfortable with is cool with me.
Be whatever you want and label yourself however you will, We're all still Homosapiens.
Speaking of labels, have you ever thought that the only time we think about our identity is when we are questioned by other people. If someone asks me, and if I'm confident in myself enough, I will answer that I'm a biological male, I like most of my sex characteristics except these ones: my prominent larynx, facial hair, and my penis. Those are three things I want to get rid of, but I don't feel like becoming a woman; I'm still pretty much a man. By the way, I'm into men.
Now what am I if I have to pick a label?
The label that you are comfortable with and would like to use. It isn't anyones business as to how you think that label applies or even how you define it.
You want to use just one or a hundred labels, that is up to you. None of them are wrong. It is just a simple way of trying to explain yourself to others and your self.
I personally just use Androgyne. If you want to know more details, ask. I don't mind explaining how I think about me to anyone. But I also won't let anyone tell me who I am. I already know that. It may be in a tangled mess in my head, but I know what that tangle is. As I unravel it, my explainations will become better. It's why I love to come hear and listen and sometimes say something about the label discussions.
I also feel a sense of same with all the Androgyne people here. I can't get that same feeling with those who think in binary terms.
But I have said that their comments about labels or anything else is welcome. There may be some great opinions from them, and indeed there has been.
I'm babbling again..... I'm a babbler, one of my labels......
Quote from: symempathy on January 28, 2011, 09:59:56 AM
Speaking of labels, have you ever thought that the only time we think about our identity is when we are questioned by other people. If someone asks me, and if I'm confident in myself enough, I will answer that I'm a biological male, I like most of my sex characteristics except these ones: my prominent larynx, facial hair, and my penis. Those are three things I want to get rid of, but I don't feel like becoming a woman; I'm still pretty much a man. By the way, I'm into men.
Now what am I if I have to pick a label?
'Neutrois' is word worthy of your investigation, symempathy.
Neutrois is a term for people who seeks to lose the sex characteristics of their natal sex without gaining the sex characteristics of the opposite sex. While Transsexuals are either FtM or MtF, Neutrois are MtN or FtN. A Neutrois is a member of "a non-gendered class", a null-gendered person, an individual who desires sex nullification due to their gender identity.
Here's a good informational starting point:
http://wikibin.org/articles/neutrois.html (http://wikibin.org/articles/neutrois.html)
-Emerald
I understood what the person in the other topic meant, but could also see why some people were offended by terminology.
When talking to people about my gender, I'll use trans or transgender if they aren't familiar with a broader spectrum, since they've usually heard that term, and then elaborate by saying that I am outside binary gender or even tell some of the history of how I came to feel this. Most people get it. Sometimes I'll use the word androgyne if they're more familiar with the LBTG community, but most aren't.
Z
Is Androgyne the umbrella term for anyone who is not binary?
Are Bigenders something separate?
Does anyone with whatever label consider themselves separate?
I think this is where the terminology needs to be discussed.
I also think that once the labels, definitions, etc, are put together we should have a summary written out. I also think an explanation about how we can't think in terms that binaries do, with *something something* said about care in offending us. This I'm assuming would include the same for us, that we do care about offending binaries with our statements and opinions.
There is common ground between everyone. I for one appreciate the binaries comments and but, if they are offending... we should say something about it in a manner that is not confrontational. There is a learning curve to all this. I'm not sure how it works, but, I know it's there and we should use it to let others understand who we are.
All that said, I think it should be pinned to the top of this forum. Not as a warning, but as an explanation.
Thoughts anyone?
I've always felt, when it comes to offending - the blame is solely placed on the person being offended.
A person chooses to be offended more often than a person chooses to offend.
As for our male lesbian friend, I hope they haven't been scared off - they could find themselves stuck at the beginning of their journey because some people chose to use their language as a way of riding their hobby horse than talk about what the person was actually trying (however awkwardly) to say.
Quote from: ativan on January 28, 2011, 05:53:32 PM
Is Androgyne the umbrella term for anyone who is not binary?
Are Bigenders something separate?
Does anyone with whatever label consider themselves separate?
I think this is where the terminology needs to be discussed.
Bigenders and Androgynes aren't the same, ativan. They are different, separate from each other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender)
Quote"While an androgynous person retains the same gender-typed behaviour across situations, the bigendered person consciously or unconsciously changes their gender-role behaviour from primarily masculine to primarily feminine, or vice versa."
I've always thought it would be nice to have a Bigender forum here but it hasn't happened as yet. Apparently no one has requested a Bigender support area or perhaps there aren't enough people here who identity as Bigender to warrant such a forum.
At any rate, Androgyne, Bigender and Neutrois are three different gender types, three separate things.
Androgyne is a non-binary gender variant, neither masculine nor feminine, or both genders with neither gender being dominant.
Bigender is a binary gender variant, distinctly alternating between masculine and feminine.
Neutrois is a non-gendered class, null-gendered.
-Emerald
Then the title Androgyne should be something that reflects this?
I think this has been gone over before, but, does it deserve attention again?
I'm just tossing things out here, I guess I can't quite grab a hold of this yet.
The main point of this thread is to explain 1.) how we approach the terms male and female (among others) and 2.) to emphasize understanding rather than allowing ourselves to be offended by something that was not meant offensively
I'm not sure how I explain this to myself, or how to emphasize understanding...
I think I'm going to watch and listen for a couple days.
I hope more than a few respond to this thread.
Maybe it's just me, the ranting babbler, but I think this is important enough.
*I edited out the I agree statement I first made. I didn't do this for any other reason than I really need to sit back and think about whats going on and how I relate to this forum. I love this place, but I feel the aftermath of last Saturday hasn't settled far enough. I have a bad feeling that arguing is going to take over again, from inside and out. I have things I want to get done, so I a going to go do those and maybe reflect on this some more. I'm basically off the forum for a couple days at least.
I think it's really easy to get tripped up in terminology because it often demands definitions be applied. If you want something that really has no definition I guess that then actually becomes the defining factor for that term. Honestly, all the different terminology out there these days can be really confusing.
Personally, I'm androgynous. But as I understand it, that's something different from Androgyne. I'm mostly male in mind, the body is somewhere in between. I do have some female characteristics. So really, I started to just reject specific terms and definitions all together because noting applied 100%.
Hey if you can find something and it applies to you perfectly and "fits" and you're happy with that, more power to you. For me, personally, nothing fits. I'm just me.
Quote from: Emerald on January 28, 2011, 04:15:59 PM
'Neutrois' is word worthy of your investigation, symempathy.
Neutrois is a term for people who seeks to lose the sex characteristics of their natal sex without gaining the sex characteristics of the opposite sex. While Transsexuals are either FtM or MtF, Neutrois are MtN or FtN. A Neutrois is a member of "a non-gendered class", a null-gendered person, an individual who desires sex nullification due to their gender identity.
Here's a good informational starting point:
http://wikibin.org/articles/neutrois.html (http://wikibin.org/articles/neutrois.html)
-Emerald
Neutrois is perhaps a good label for me because I indeed never think about my gender. I simply accept certain traits of my sex. However, if I'm a neutrois, how do I define my sexual orientation?
I don't care what gender a person identifies himself/herself with. I'm attracted to people who have
strong secondary sex characteristics of a male. Certainly there are other factors that influence my attraction to the person as well. Hence, I won't feel offended if I'm called gay, but it may not be an accurate one. This is such a headache.
@ symempathy - Androphilia/androphile/androphilic are terms for the sexual attraction toward males or toward masculinity without reference to the sex of the person feeling the attraction.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic=12867 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic=12867)
I've always seen neutrois, bigender etc.. expressions of the central issue that a person 'does not identify as male or female' - whether they then identify as inbetween, null gender, ungendered or whatever is how the brain translates and expresses this basic issue.
Perhaps this area should be considered the "non-binary" area rather than androgyn. It's a thought.
As for terms? Hmmm. I've seen enough terms to make my head spin. Personally? I stick to androgyn and explain my personal feelings from there. If I'm feeling spicy I'll use "Third gender" because...yea. I"m not a man, I'm not a woman...I'm the third gender. *shrugs* Works for me.
I'm glad this is getting some discussion.
One thing I do want to address, since it was brought up, is the name of this forum. We've had this discussion before (about whether it should be changed) and nothing good came of it...the threads were locked and we were given stern warnings that it was the Androgyne forum, period. Just an FYI. ;)
I think terms, at least for androgynes are typically chosen based on how they make us feel. There's a whole lot of gray area and I like that. I can make up my own term if I want to or I can choose one that someone else has created. For me, at least, I find a certain joy in not having the exact answer...I'm free to wander through the Unicorn Forest as much as I want. There's always something new for me to learn and that makes me happy.
So perhaps for our non-Androgyne friends, we could say a couple sentences (just something quick) that explains how we feel about our respective genders? I don't know how many non-Androgynes are viewing this thread, but I certainly hope we have a few. I'd like to hear their views on their genders as well.
I generally just identify as Androgyne. I am female bodied, but I identify and feel more closely related to gay men. I would like to look androgynous in the future, but the weight issue has to be taken care of first (which shouldn't be that difficult now because I bought a car and can't afford to spend money anymore... :P).
I to just go with Androgyne. Much the way and reason as Pica Pica and Jaimey.
Pretty comfy with it. I also feel it's more of a blanket term for non-binary transgender.
I understand how Bigender should be different from Androgyne, and it should by Emeralds definition. But definitions change a lot around here, and I have gone through enough terms including those mentioned along the way in this topic. I have felt all of them more than a few times and sometimes in combination or skipping my way around in them.
I am an Androgyne. It says a lot, but it says very little about me personally. I think about all the terms and how personal they are to so many here. Especially people who are new and trying to find their way for the first time. It can be overwhelming and confusing to them. But I think that their first reaction to a term is to call themselves Androgyne. Not always, but that does seem to be the reaction if it is the first time they start looking and asking. We've seen it. It's like finding a little treasure. They have a name, a term. They feel less confused. Androgyne. Blanket term.
From there, the terms become more refined. But, the definitions can be different to different people in how they personally want to use them. Not all, some are pretty well defined.
But this is were it once again becomes confusing. Not to the person using the term, but others as a group. It makes us easy targets for misunderstandings among ourselves. It makes us easy targets for Binaries, if they wish to do so. It makes it easy to misunderstand us from the binaries point of view, which can lead them into the confusion also.
I wonder if they have to be rude to get themselves out of a misunderstanding. I wonder if we get rude to them for a misunderstanding. I think it, and I've been saying it lately. But, just to make a point of it. Sort of a two way street, or as some have seen it, a double edge sword. I have to agree with both.
I am for seeing if We can get a Topic pinned to the top of the topics list that isn't rude, isn't a warning, but a gesture to those who don't walk our walk, how certain attitudes and references can be rude and hurtful. And how we will also respect their feelings as best we can also.
I think this is going to be the best bet on getting something done with Staff and Susan. If it's not, then I hope we find out soon. And maybe get some input from them as well? As staff, or just personally.
Change the title here? I'm thinking we shouldn't even bring it up, as Jaimey said. And I think it would cause many disagreements among us. For What?
Yep, thats my story and I'm stickin' to it. At least for now. Any agreements or disagreements? Nows the time to say something, Your Opinion. No matter who You are.
I settled on androgyne/genderfluid at first, because it seemed to fit me at the time. I later realized that there are triggers that flip me into girl mode. I'm not sure if these triggers were always there or they came about as i got older.
Anyway, my boy side is definitely an androgyne while my girl side is definitely not, so i guess i blur the line between androgyne and bigender a little :P
Getting back to Jaimey's point - As TG people we're under a common umbrella, but there sure seems to be a lot of elbowing under that umbrella. Some of it may be intentional, and some of it may not. At any rate I believe that we should try to be thoughtful when we consider being critical of others. We haven't walked a mile in their shoes.
And in the end - it's just a label.
Well, you are are stuck with me even tho I self identify as bigender... :(
Quote from: Sevan on January 29, 2011, 11:30:11 AM
Perhaps this area should be considered the "non-binary" area rather than androgyn. It's a thought.
As I recall, some of the bigender folk (who are no longer here) considered themselves to be binary.
Quote from: ativan on January 30, 2011, 11:56:22 PM
And maybe get some input from them as well? As staff, or just personally.
Change the title here? I'm thinking we shouldn't even bring it up, as Jaimey said. And I think it would cause many disagreements among us. For What?
My personal input is that, while perhaps not a perfect option, the title seems to work OK enough as an umbrella term, and that more importantly, folks here in the androgyne forum are welcoming to a diversity of terms and ways of expressing ourselves.
Z
Quote from: Zythyra on January 31, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
As I recall, some of the bigender folk (who are no longer here) considered themselves to be binary.
My personal input is that, while perhaps not a perfect option, the title seems to work OK enough as an umbrella term, and that more importantly, folks here in the androgyne forum are welcoming to a diversity of terms and ways of expressing ourselves.
Z
I can see that as being true for some Bigenders, I wonder If I have in turn been offending them here, refering to the group as non-binary? I will stop it. But then I will have to go back to using Androgyne when referring to the group here as a whole. I hope that would be OK with Bigenders?
I totally agree with your personal input. Thank You.
Quote from: Zythyra on January 31, 2011, 08:25:17 PM
more importantly, folks here in the androgyne forum are welcoming to a diversity of terms and ways of expressing ourselves.
I certainly appreciate every effort not to offend by trying to use prefered terms, but THIS is the reason I feel comfortable
here.
Quote from: Pica Pica on January 28, 2011, 06:19:05 PM
I've always felt, when it comes to offending - the blame is solely placed on the person being offended.
A person chooses to be offended more often than a person chooses to offend.
This. I meant to highlight it earlier, but I forgot. Sorry, Pica. :) I just feel like life is so much easier when we choose to not be offended. It takes a lot of energy to be offended and get angry over things that really aren't that offensive and certainly weren't meant offensively. There are times when a person does say or do something that is offensive and they need to have the situation explained to them, but I don't think I've ever really seen anything much on this forum that requires that sort of action.
Peace is not only the better answer, but it's a lot easier. :icon_bumdance-nerd:
That means that peace is for lazy people.
Therefore war is for active people.
I am a lazy bum. Then, I am a pacifist ass.
How's that for offensive :D
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 01, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
I am a pacifist ass.
Be careful: heroes have been known to kill people with the jawbone of an ass.
That said, I am also a pacifist, and from a long line of activist pacifists.
S
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 01, 2011, 02:52:14 PM
That means that peace is for lazy people.
Therefore war is for active people.
I am a lazy bum. Then, I am a pacifist ass.
How's that for offensive :D
hahah! I think I would say that peace is for those who don't like to waste energy that could be used elsewhere. :P
It's unfortunate that in this world, as it seems it has always been, peace has to be won by not being just that. Peaceful. It's really all that anyone wants. But we end up fighting about it.
I was very much an activist when it came to peace. I have been having PTSD issues on and off for a few yrs now. Oh well, I'm to old now for any of that kind of activism anymore. It's all I want anymore, even though I disturb the peace to many times.
Just please don't disturb me on a warm sunny day when I'm daydreaming of a perfect world, I don't want to be pissed off anymore.
But, it happens. I'll try not to rain on your parade. But just like everyone, I can't guarantee that.
For all you old hippies, one of my favorites...
Dreaming about the world as one
And I believe it could be
Something good's bound to come
For out on the edge of darkness
There runs the Peace Train
Cat Stevens
Peace man
Ativan
I guess I find the terminology somewhat inadequate - many of the terms are rooted in the framing of binary gender, or are not agreed upon and have no official canon to their meaning. However, the people who identify as androgyne seem the most similar to me in regard to where I fit in a gender context. I sort of dislike the label, though, because it is framed in the limited gender binary concept of 'man' and 'woman'. I saw something very funny online: "Labels are for soup cans". I concur.
In the context of a binary gender state of mind, I myself have a combination of masculine and feminine traits - honestly in that framing I think everyone has some permutation of both combined. I enjoy cooking, sewing, and have an artistic flair. I consider myself a musician, love doing interior decoration, have a sense for color and style, etc. but I also enjoy solving puzzles, making models, jets, cars, gadgets, camping, and travel. I've played team sports in my adolescence but I always felt alienated by the competitive intensity and the 'frat-boy' horseplay; in fact I was much more comfortable being in a group of women talking about hair or clothes (even though they thought I wasn't paying attention).
I would have been complacent to be confident in my uniqueness as a male a not consider myself transgendered (in fact, I have struggled to be in that boat for years) if it weren't for the fact that my feminine traits and interests blatantly extend across society's dictated gender line in terms of my appearance and clothing.
I have my own sense of style, and how I express myself. Since I cannot hide the feminine traits in my appearance this daily puts me at odds with society's expectations for gender roles. Mine are on full display and completely cross the 'gender-line'. When I looked at my situation from the perspective that I am a unique male and my expression is male, I find my definition of the male gender is at odds with society's definition. In that manner the term 'transgendered', I think, refers to the gender expectations set by our society and represents my status in relation to those perceived gender expectations. Since I, by appearance alone, cross that gender line, I am trans (across) gender (society's gender definition). There is soooo much baggage in a label, and I'd rather not assign it to myself, but it fits, and unfortunately labels carry with them a lot of baggage that doesn't define me (ie. the desire to be a physical woman, to look like a woman, etc.) I just want to be myself, screw gender and gender roles.
This conflict with gender expectations started me questioning what it is that defines the idea of gender. Gender is not sex - sex is basically your plumbing, and if the only thing you needed to be male was a penis then it wouldn't matter what you wear, what jobs you do, how you express your emotions, decorate yourself, etc. So what is gender if not that?
I came to the conclusion that gender is a 100% social construct. For some reason, humanity decided to take a full spectrum of traits, interests, physical properties - everything under the sun, and randomly assign it into 'male' or 'female'. Take colors for example. Pink is feminine, blue is masculine, etc. Physical characteristics: grace in movement is feminine, forcefulness is masculine, but both male and female can exhibit either. Let's not even get into the historical shift in gender traits over time (pink was for boys, blue for girls, tights were worn by men who spent a lot of time riding horses, etc.). It all seems to shift arbitrarily and the assignment is fuzzy from culture to culture. In Japan, speaking in a melodic tone is considered a feminine trait. I can think of many people here in the US that would easily cross Japan's societal gender line (in fact I think theirs is way stricter than our culture's).
Some gender studies academics say that the gender binary (male & female) is limited & inaccurate and state that there are three of four genders. Others say that each person has their own unique gender. The last group considers gender to be a social construct and that the idea doesn't work to define everybody.
Since I consider gender a social construct, and one that doesn't adequately define me (in fact it was stacked completely against me), it is easier for me to call myself transgendered, but more in the sense of trans meaning 'beyond' or 'through'. By using the word to define myself, I am stating that I reject the concept of gender and refuse to abide by its expectations or rules.
I guess it really comes down to possibly needing a common understanding of four terms - masculine/male, feminine/female, gender, and transgendered.
Welcome to the worlds busiest label place.
I like the take on Androgyne. To me it is a combination of two gender words that express the ends, so to speak, of gender. Together they make a new word that to me defines the middle ground between the two.
And it sounds better than malefemale or femalemale :laugh:. Or maybe not, the more I look at them. Anyways, I am one of the stuck on Androgyne people.
I think it can be further brought down to masculine, feminine, female, male, gender and transgender.
Ativan (malefemale :))
the most important thing for a transgendered or transsexual person to keep in mind is to have a stable self image. some people get that from transitioning very far into the opposite binary, but others get that from becoming comfortable more or less where they already are. as I see it, being a part of the second type is what it means to be androgyne.
Quote from: Almond on February 02, 2011, 09:12:15 PM
from becoming comfortable more or less where they already are.
That's a key statement for sure. I think more than transition, more than finding labels, more than...any of the things we do to fit in or find our place, none of those is as comforting, I don't think, as just learning to be comfortable with who are. That was the biggest step for me.
I sort of think of third gender as more of the catch-all term, under which you have the following headings:
Androgyne, Neutrois, Bigendered, Genderqueer and maybe the happily Intersexed?
Androgyne doesn't necessarily seem to include neutrois-at least I wasn't under the impression neutrois people thought so, and I don't identify with neutrois strongly. Androgynes are a blend of the two main genders.
Neutrois people, as I understand it, are unhappy with secondary sexual characteristics(all of them or in part) and would like to eliminate them.
And Bigendered people... feeling a need to be a different gender on different days...well they are their own unique thing too. Not sure if they could be called androgyne either.
And does Genderqueering even count as a gender subtype? The deliberate habitual blurring of gender lines for the purpose of making it easier to do so in society, or just for the fun and chaos?
And what surgeons cavalierly do to Intersex babies...it's a human-rights violation. Unlesss there's a real medical need for surgery (like no opening for waste to evacuate, or, conversely, lack of a coherent sphincter) a child shouldn't have genital surgery performed on them until they're old enough to decide what they want done.
As a bigender, I feel covered by the androgyne umbrella. Even though I am discretely male or female, I am not one or the other. Shrug. It's just a different way of being both to me.
BUT...I started a poll on the bigender forum to get a more representative idea of what other folk think and will keep you all posted.
I use the term androgyne, I like it because it didn't have any prior terms of reference for me. I pronounce it wrong because I always read it off the page - oddly enough I have gotten a bit of stick about this. You'd have thought that androgynes could excuse a personal interpretation of a word, wouldn't you?
I think it makes a decent umbrella. I used to refer to myself as pregender - that in terms of mental/self/gender type of development I had the same gender identity a young baby would have or maybe a toddler, who can express male, female roles and selves and still remain largely ungendered. I feel most of the gendering of children is done by society on the child rather than the child themselves and the concepts of male and female do not properly kick in until they reach 4 or 5 and start having the cognitive ability to compare themselves to other people and categories.
I now use the term androgyne to allow myself to relax and express all the parts of me - to allow myself to feel more authentic, alive and in touch with the rest of the world.
It also allows me to have a network (admittedly online) of other androgynes who are people I can identify with the way males can with females and females with males. True, there are many differences and even some things about other andros that are contrary to me, but I'm sure people feel that when looking at people of the same gender all the time.
malefemale, femalemale. Both are too long. They lose because they are cumbersome. 21st century people are way too lazy for words with multiple syllables. Maybe fale will catch on instead, hmm? Or is the youtube fail videos thing too popular and would override people's reaction to fale?
I get the single syllable thing, laziness, societal tendencies, etc.
I refer to myself as Droĝ (pronounced 'draw-j') as a lazy short for Androgyne. The second syllable of the word has the dro from andro and the soft g from gyno.
I figure it can also fit into the drab (dressed as boy), drag (dressed as girl) dynamic as droĝ (dressed other gender).
The ĝ is optional, it just indicates the g is pronounced as in general or giant.
Quote from: chokhor on February 14, 2011, 08:13:00 PM
I get the single syllable thing, laziness, societal tendencies, etc.
I refer to myself as Droĝ (pronounced 'draw-j') as a lazy short for Androgyne. The second syllable of the word has the dro from andro and the soft g from gyno.
I figure it can also fit into the drab (dressed as boy), drag (dressed as girl) dynamic as droĝ (dressed other gender).
The ĝ is optional, it just indicates the g is pronounced as in general or giant.
I like it!
After thinking about it for awhile, I have to agree. I also like it.
Well, this is fascinating!
I've spent a good while lately on google and wikipedia and so on, trying to see if there was a term that fit me, and as far as I can tell/feel, none of the above does the trick so well as "niizh manidoowag" - the Ojibwe phrase that means something like "two-spirited".
I have a male body - and both a female and a male self, at the same time*. Neither of them have periods where they're dominant, they're just both running in parallel all the time. Androgyny doesn't seem to fit because it seems most people mean something more like "I am neither" with that word. Bigendered doesn't seem to fit because it seems most people mean something more like "I switch about between the two" with that word.
I'm reluctant to call myself niizh manidoowag or two-spirited because I'm reluctant to "spiritualise" something that's just my nature, and it's too easy to make something artificially extraordinary or spiritual, when it's just is how it is. So in the end, I'm experimenting with calling myself "ambigendered" which, with its connotation of "both at the same time" is the best I can do. Or in practice, what I tell people (when I tell people) is "I'm both at the same time" because if I say "ambigendered" I then have to say that anyway ;).
I'm new to this business in terms of terms - so it may be that there are already other words floating about that also fit my definition of ambigendered. If so, I'd be interested to hear them. It does seem like there's a whole swathe of not-quite-the-same-or-different terms because everyone's experience and identity is a little different from the next. I guess it never does any harm when using labels to add "by which I mean..." and not assume the next person means the same thing by it.
Most of us use Androgyne to cover any non-binary identity, so while I don't have a suggestion for a specific term, Androgyne is an umbrella term. "Neither" is usually null/neutrosis...terms like that.
Thanks, that helps - since I've been doing more reading on this and other forums, it's easier to see that wikipedia isn't always the best place to go for information!
Quote from: hylie random on February 03, 2011, 10:57:16 PM
I sort of think of third gender as more of the catch-all term, under which you have the following headings:
Androgyne, Neutrois, Bigendered, Genderqueer and maybe the happily Intersexed?
I'm not sure if intersexed people would neccesarily want to come under the third gender umbrella...despite being intersexed they could strongly identify as a binary gender (either matching or incongruent with the one they were assigned at birth) or be somewhere in the middle. I'm hesitant to talk from personal experience, because as of yet there is no concrete clinical evidence...just lots of little things stacking up one after the other, and I so hate speaking for others, but for me, despite it not being definite, the knowledge that I may very well be intersexed didn't actually change how I identified.
Intersexed people wouldn't come under the androgyne umbrella unless they want to...which is what I meant by "happily intersexed." I should have made that a bit clearer, I guess..
Obviously many physically ambiguous people are going to be male or female only inside, of course. Goodness knows, it would be just too convenient if one's genitalia always matched one's gender! ::)
This is the problem I have with 'umbrella' terms - it's usually someone else trying to tell us we're under the good grace of their umbrella, without asking whether we're happier running around in our own rain :).
I Identify as intergender for me it means some things Male & Some things Female some things both some things just unique to me. In the same was that intersex people are medically some things Male some things Female the way I am is some things male & some things female. I'm both and I don't swich although I sometimes feel more strongly both, Female, neither or Male it is rare for me to not feel strongly and comfortably both. another way to describe where my gender sits is to say I'm More both then neither, more neither then female & more female then male most of the time the only time I feel not male is when I'm with a group of all males and feel like I have no chance of fitting in.
as an umbrella term genderqueer & androgyne are both ok but they are too big for me to use them as "this is what I am". When I'm with an assortment of various different "queer" people if they accept me then I tend to feel comfortable being "queer". but most of the time being under an umbrella where other people are holding the umbrella and/or the banner "we are this" I feel like my identity is being squashed as I can't totally express who I am around them. or if they are using an umbrella that doesn't include me and I feel rejected and lonely umbrellas that cover me and let me be true are great but other wise I may be better singing in the rain :)
Umbrellas, great in the rain...not so great for defining a very diverse group of people.
I look at the umbrella as a direction marker...feel kind of like this? Perhaps you should try this forest. :) I think the nice thing about our forum is that the umbrella term gets you here, but you can do whatever you want and we don't care.
Like a sign post at the entrance of the Forest, with different arrows pointing in different directions. You can follow that path, but no quarantees of what or who you'll find?
And of course there are plenty of cross paths and forks in the road. With direction arrows if needed there, too. Plenty of camping spaces. Plenty of room to live as you think you should, whether you want to be in this 'term' camp, or even several. Personally, I'm eyeing a big tree to build a tree house. Hmm...wonder what I will name it.
Or not.
Maybe the main sign should just say 'Welcome to the Unicorn Forest'.
Or the sign post is in different languages - so you can never be quite sure that what it says in the language you speak is the same as what it says in the others :).
"You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Unicorn Forest!"
or something like that.... :-\
I can EASILY see how someone would be confused by "male lesbian"- but I don't see any reason why someone should be offended by it. You shouldn't get insulted by how someone else refers to themselves. It has nothing to do with you! A lot of people get offended way too easily.
hgnjytfhnytghjmynhjmyng
*Ativan will be back after a trip to the ER to get keys removed from forehead* ;)
Quote from: ativan on March 13, 2011, 08:38:42 PM
hgnjytfhnytghjmynhjmyng
*Ativan will be back after a trip to the ER to get keys removed from forehead* ;)
Is this keyboard bashing in response to my post?
yes. But, it's OK. I hope you didn't take that wrong...... This topic here is an off-shoot of a topic that got way out of hand. I think a lot of respectful members here have walked away with a different understanding from it. Just seeing the phrase 'male lesbian' caused the blood to drain from my head for a moment, there. ;)
The term caused a sortof meltdown in this section. Refer to locked topic:
Male lesbian concept / ...... locked on Jan 30
Welcome to the forest, by the way.
And I like your Avatar, too... :)
The real sign reads:
Just Be Yourself
your mileage may vary
Quote from: tekla on March 13, 2011, 10:37:08 PM
The real sign reads:
Just Be Yourself
your mileage may vary
Ain't that the truth.