It's really disheartening to read stuff like this. When you think about how much better things are than they used to be you r reminded of how bad things still are.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=counting_the_transgender_community (http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=counting_the_transgender_community)
Good artical. Thanks.
The environment has improved ove rthe years since I transitioned.
Wow...that's depressing, so glad I'm not American.
And reminds me of why i prefer the safety and odds-beating-chances of living in 'stealth'
Quote from: Skyanne on February 06, 2011, 08:10:21 AM
Wow...that's depressing, so glad I'm not American.
What country do you live in, if you don't mind me asking? I'm personally considering going to grad school in New Zealand. I very much want to get out of the U.S.
As a European I find this report both saddening and scary. To anyone used to the Uk's mainly relaxed attitudes this is just completely alien territory.
It is also very depressing because I fear that if I lived in the USA I would not have been willing to take the "risk" of living in a relationship with the woman I have loved for the past 23 years. Instead I might have lived in a deep deep stealth bunker, and deliberately chosen an ultra conservative lifestyle and straight relationship.
The end result of that would have been that with a childhood transition and early SRS I would almost certainly have passed under the radar, and who knows, I might even have become the morally bankrupt persecutor of trans-people on the basis that the best form of defense is attack.
Above all I would have lost my true self and instead have become a terrible hypocrite.
I hate the fact that attitudes like this can exist in this age, I salute those of you who deal with and fight them, and I thank my lucky stars that I have never had to, because as you can see, I am forced to admit that I doubt that I would have done so with anything like honor or integrity.
These attitudes HAVE to change. A nation that can do this to it's own citizens whilst preaching to the rest of the world about "Freedom," "Respect," and "Democracy," has in my opinion, plumbed the same depths of moral bankruptcy as I would probably have done if I had ever lived and loved there.
Clearly I cannot condemn, but hopefully by my own confession of weakness I can hold up a mirror.
Quote from: valyn_faer on February 06, 2011, 09:52:27 AM
What country do you live in, if you don't mind me asking? I'm personally considering going to grad school in New Zealand. I very much want to get out of the U.S.
I'm from the UK, and attitudes here are very, very different. Most people I've told have basically had responded, "Okay, that's nice, so what was your big news?".
That's the thing about the U.S. It's not really a unified country. States are, in effect, their own countries as it pertains to law and outlook. Democrat and Republican relations are so close to Shia / Sunni that it's absolutely frightening (even in my family we fight over political policy). Every state has its own agenda and is allowed to vie for its constituents equally in the senate. Each state has its own constitution which can contradict the federal constitution. Conservative states, though less populated, wield a disproportionate amount of power and "moral authority."
This is why pretty much everyone across the board hates Californians. We're the privileged child that roots for the underdog. We abuse our power and shove it in everyone's face. Proudly. When I'm out of state and tell a person I'm from California I get the same social reaction as though I've just come out to someone. We set trends, we dictate federal environmental policies, we push laws which are deemed "liberal" upon the rest of the country. There are 37 million of us, we help feed a good portion of the world, we are the economic engine that propels this faulty machine. They have to listen to us and they hate it.
Even in California though, there is a divide. The state is more than 700 miles long, and venturing from San Francisco to Los Angeles is exactly like going from New York to Washington D.C. There is more than enough room for everyone here, but no one wants to believe it. We can't even pass a law that allows homosexuals to marry (The democrats who turned out to vote for Obama also happened to be religious conservatives. Go figure). It's a lot like: "This land is my land... forget the rest."
In the U.S. freedom can be ******* scary, because you're not the only one who is free. The bigots and racists and sexists and homophobes and warmongers are all also free to express their beliefs without violent reproach. They have the federal protection to present a law that treats a certain subculture as less than human if they so choose. The best (faulty) protection we have is the nine supreme court justices that are appointed for life by the presidents, present and past, that we hope like hell have our best interests in mind. Even then we find ourselves depending upon police departments that have little incentive to actually uphold the laws of a flagging and ever weaker federal entity, and we can thank the economy for that.
The U.S. is an absolute hole right now. Like a weapon with a dementia patient's finger on the trigger.
Quote from: MarinaM on February 06, 2011, 02:10:44 PM
In the U.S. freedom can be ******* scary, because you're not the only one who is free. The bigots and racists and sexists and homophobes and warmongers are all also free to express their beliefs without violent reproach.
I don't want to seem disrespectful to someone elses country, but that's the sort of 'Freedom' they have in North Korea too.
Quote from: MarinaM on February 06, 2011, 02:10:44 PM
That's the thing about the U.S. It's not really a unified country. States are, in effect, their own countries as it pertains to law and outlook. Democrat and Republican relations are so close to Shia / Sunni that it's absolutely frightening (even in my family we fight over political policy). Every state has its own agenda and is allowed to vie for its constituents equally in the senate. Each state has its own constitution which can contradict the federal constitution. Conservative states, though less populated, wield a disproportionate amount of power and "moral authority."
This is why pretty much everyone across the board hates Californians. We're the privileged child that roots for the underdog. We abuse our power and shove it in everyone's face. Proudly. When I'm out of state and tell a person I'm from California I get the same social reaction as though I've just come out to someone. We set trends, we dictate federal environmental policies, we push laws which are deemed "liberal" upon the rest of the country. There are 37 million of us, we help feed a good portion of the world, we are the economic engine that propels this faulty machine. They have to listen to us and they hate it.
Even in California though, there is a divide. The state is more than 700 miles long, and venturing from San Francisco to Los Angeles is exactly like going from New York to Washington D.C. There is more than enough room for everyone here, but no one wants to believe it. We can't even pass a law that allows homosexuals to marry (The democrats who turned out to vote for Obama also happened to be religious conservatives. Go figure). It's a lot like: "This land is my land... forget the rest."
In the U.S. freedom can be ******* scary, because you're not the only one who is free. The bigots and racists and sexists and homophobes and warmongers are all also free to express their beliefs without violent reproach. They have the federal protection to present a law that treats a certain subculture as less than human if they so choose. The best (faulty) protection we have is the nine supreme court justices that are appointed for life by the presidents, present and past, that we hope like hell have our best interests in mind. Even then we find ourselves depending upon police departments that have little incentive to actually uphold the laws of a flagging and ever weaker federal entity, and we can thank the economy for that.
The U.S. is an absolute hole right now. Like a weapon with a dementia patient's finger on the trigger.
1. When the United States has a civil war, clan warfare, and militaristic despots, then we can say that our relations are like Sunni/Shia. Let's not delegitimize the challenges elsewhere in the world by acting like Democrat vs. Republicans is the same as actual war or jailing dissenters/killing their families.
2. State constitutions may NOT contradict the federal constitution. This is a basic principle of federalism. Some state constitutions go further than the federal one. NONE take away rights granted in the US Constitution.
3. Having lived in the midwest and on the east coast, I've never met a single person who hated Californians.
4. The best protection we have is not the Supreme Court. It is the fact that the United States is an extremely diverse country, and you have the absolute right as a US citizen to move *anywhere* in the country you like, to any state. If you don't like your location, you can just pick up and go somewhere else.
The US may not be the best place in the world, but to bash it or compare it to North Korea - where a large percentage of the population is starving/malnurished and censored under a despot - is the kind of hyperbole that makes it impossible for anyone to take your concerns seriously.
Well, to be fair I was the one that mentioned North Korea, and only in the sense that racists, sexists, homophobes ect also have the freedom to express their beliefs there as well.
I don't think there's anything wrong with bashing America a little bit, but that doesn't mean it's not generally a lovely country full of nice people. You just can't really go around saying you're leader of the free world if people in your country aren't really free to be themselves without facing oppression, violence, etc.
Edit: Although thinking about it, prolly what they mean when they say that is 'strongest country that is generally free and democractic' and the rest of us take it a lil too literally.
Quote from: Sean on February 06, 2011, 02:35:57 PM
1. When the United States has a civil war, clan warfare, and militaristic despots, then we can say that our relations are like Sunni/Shia. Let's not delegitimize the challenges elsewhere in the world by acting like Democrat vs. Republicans is the same as actual war or jailing dissenters/killing their families.
2. State constitutions may NOT contradict the federal constitution. This is a basic principle of federalism. Some state constitutions go further than the federal one. NONE take away rights granted in the US Constitution.
3. Having lived in the midwest and on the east coast, I've never met a single person who hated Californians.
4. The best protection we have is not the Supreme Court. It is the fact that the United States is an extremely diverse country, and you have the absolute right as a US citizen to move *anywhere* in the country you like, to any state. If you don't like your location, you can just pick up and go somewhere else.
The US may not be the best place in the world, but to bash it or compare it to North Korea - where a large percentage of the population is starving/malnurished and censored under a despot - is the kind of hyperbole that makes it impossible for anyone to take your concerns seriously.
The government is split and they're spitting venom at one another. You don't believe that they seek to absolutely destroy one another in some form? You can't feel the vitriol coming off of capitol hill?
We had a civil war over moral and economic disputes. 618,000 Americans died.
43 million people in the U.S. (the ones willing to be counted, mind you) live in poverty, more than the entire population of North Korea. Over 1.3 million people every year are victims of violent crime. California and Oregon have constitutional amendments allowing for the legal use of medical marijuana and the right to die, respectively, which are federally banned, and the feds have enacted their right to allow states to uphold these conflicted federal laws; this effectively negates the federal law. You are correct though, none take away federally granted rights, but States are absolutely allowed to challenge interpretations of the federal constitution.
As far as people from out of state, maybe I'm just meeting the wrong people.
This is just...fantastically depressing. And people wonder why I'm a HUGE misanthropist.
And Marina, I think you are. Nobody I know hates Californians.
Quote from: Skyanne on February 06, 2011, 10:12:19 AM
I'm from the UK, and attitudes here are very, very different. Most people I've told have basically had responded, "Okay, that's nice, so what was your big news?".
I beg to differ, in the UK we can be still harassed in the street. I know of some who have been shouted at, physically threatened and punched. I am aware that if passing is a problem then its even worse. I was dropped as a teacher when I first disclosed my intention to transition and even though came at the top of an interview for a post. I learned this through my union who also didn't do a thing. It was there loss. As some will know I am successful and have a senior position now and live in semi-stealth. I intend to remain like that. In saying this my family have been great and those whom my mum blurts it out to have been great, thanks mum, lol. So its where you live in the UK, there are places that are less welcoming. I also know some who have not had good acceptance from their GP. Again mine have been great, even fantastic. So its still hit and miss here in the UK.
About the article, its awful to think that one human being can think that about another just because they are different.
Stardust
I think it's a little bit of a generation thing too, but yeah...I'm from Brighton, so my experiences here are prolly very different from other, less tolerant parts of the UK. We also do have much better legal protection and rights across the entire country though.
If you want anyone to take you seriously, you have to start with serious arguments, the US is North Korea is not exactly in that category. Moreover I doubt very, very much that whoever wrote that has the least clue as to what anyone in North Korea is allowed to say, or not say - it's the most closed society in the world.
And, in a secret police cult of personality state, like North Korea is, no one is allowed to express anything other than agreeing with Dear Leader, no matter what he says.
Quote from: tekla on February 06, 2011, 03:59:06 PM
If you want anyone to take you seriously, you have to start with serious arguments, the US is North Korea is not exactly in that category. Moreover I doubt very, very much that whoever wrote that has the least clue as to what anyone in North Korea is allowed to say, or not say - it's the most closed society in the world.
And, in a secret police cult of personality state, like North Korea is, no one is allowed to express anything other than agreeing with Dear Leader, no matter what he says.
Agreed. Sure, the US has problems. Every country does. But please do not compare the US to North Korea. North Korea has electric fences along its borders with the sole intention of electrocuting those attempting to escape. If you even privately complain about your food rations in North Korea, you, your family, and even your extended family will end up in a labor camp, probably for the rest of your lives. North Korea is a human rights basket case. If you expressed the opinion there that you did here, you'd probably "disappear".
And that is horrible to hear about discrimination against trans in America. Why do they have all these anti-discrimination laws and yet a lot of states have no anti-discrimination law against trans people? Sometimes the LGBT community makes me kind of mad - it seems like they are putting all their effort behind initiatives helping LGB, and rarely actually helping LGB
T.
Most statistics are made up or exaggerated. Every country has problems. I wouldn't walk on egg shells because of reports. I am not trying to mock anything, but I am not going to sit around going "oh no, I hope the bigots don't get me today." People get shot on the street just because, but I am not about to stop going out because of lunatics.
Speaking of bad arguements.
Quote
Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension): attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position.
Just because the US is compared to North Korea in a very specific way, doesn't mean it's also compared in a general way. If I said the US, like North Korea is a country, that wouldn't mean I was saying the US was like North Korea in every single way. Stop it. :P
Quote from: MarinaM on February 06, 2011, 02:10:44 PM
The U.S. is an absolute hole right now. Like a weapon with a dementia patient's finger on the trigger.
I second that emotion. The Roman Empire and Nazi Germany started out as republics too. Between The Beacon of Democracy and The Great Satan, my honest assessment is that we are more like the way Iran views us than we are like the way we view ourselves.
Quote from: Skyanne on February 07, 2011, 08:57:45 AM
Speaking of bad arguements.
Just because the US is compared to North Korea in a very specific way, doesn't mean it's also compared in a general way. If I said the US, like North Korea is a country, that wouldn't mean I was saying the US was like North Korea in every single way. Stop it. :P
Regardless, your argument was entirely fallacious, even interpreted no further than what you posted. There is NO freedom of expression in N. Korea, whether it be for LGBT, racists, or homophobes. Bashing the US for free speech is ludicrous; the freedoms of thought and expression are, in my opinion, among the greatest advancement of western culture. To censor someone whose opinion you dislike is to deny them their liberty, and to stand against everything that our nation was founded upon.
If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind. -John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
QuoteThe government is split and they're spitting venom at one another. You don't believe that they seek to absolutely destroy one another in some form? You can't feel the vitriol coming off of capitol hill?
We had a civil war over moral and economic disputes. 618,000 Americans died.
43 million people in the U.S. (the ones willing to be counted, mind you) live in poverty, more than the entire population of North Korea. Over 1.3 million people every year are victims of violent crime. California and Oregon have constitutional amendments allowing for the legal use of medical marijuana and the right to die, respectively, which are federally banned, and the feds have enacted their right to allow states to uphold these conflicted federal laws; this effectively negates the federal law. You are correct though, none take away federally granted rights, but States are absolutely allowed to challenge interpretations of the federal constitution.
As far as people from out of state, maybe I'm just meeting the wrong people.
The civil war was over a good deal more than that, and it was 150 years ago. It serves as no more an indicator of present day political relations in the US than the Crimean War does of Russian relations with Western Europe.
The federal government has NOT, in fact, allowed this practice to go unprosecuted. Obama stated early in his term that he did not want to waste resources on something so trivial as medical marijuana, but it hasn't received a pass from the government; on the contrary, the current acting head of the DEA (and nominee for the head proper) Michele Leonhart has made it a personal mission to prosecute those using marijuana for medical purposes in violation of federal law.
I also find your poverty comment betrays a vast ignorance of poverty, and what it really means. When we look at poverty in the US, we're looking at relative poverty; that is, the percent of people who fall below a certain <1 coefficient of the median. It isn't a valid measure of a group's access to resources, it's simply a handy measure of income inequality.
Absolute poverty is a bit different, and is what one typically thinks of when they hear the word poverty. The dictionary definition is "It is a level of policy as defined in terms of the minimal requirements necessary to afford minimal standards of food, clothing, health care and shelter." You claim that 47 million in the US live in "poverty"; how many would fit this definition? It's worth noting too that relative poverty measures only monetary income; food stamps, section 8, Medicaid and et cetera are not brought into consideration when defining poverty in America.
What is absolute poverty like? Since you drew the parallel to North Korea, why don't we use them as an example. In a country of 22 million, approximately 500k deaths per year can be attributed to starvation. In the writings of one reporter who illegally entered the country, it was documented that those outside the prototype city can be seen eating kimchi made of tree bark and clay, simply to abate the feeling of emptiness in their stomachs. Say nothing of the rights afforded to the citizens; an escapee of a North Korean concentration camp states that women too weak to work were routinely killed by guards in the most horrific of ways. Once they'd had their sexual fun, they would finish the job with the woman by raping her to death with a spade.
Back to the famine though. Christopher Hitchens brings it home far better than I ever could, and I recommend you watch Christopher Hitchens - North Korea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8-Vr_r36Fg#)
I'm done ranting for now though. Apologies for the rambling, these comparisons just really got under my skin.
Quote from: long.897 on February 07, 2011, 04:05:22 PM
Regardless, your argument was entirely fallacious, even interpreted no further than what you posted. There is NO freedom of expression in N. Korea, whether it be for LGBT, racists, or homophobes.
Yeah, that was kinda the whole point of what I said. Saying someone is free to repress others as an example of freedoms, isn't an example of freedoms at all.
But you've kinda got a bit obsessed with your whole North Korea and the US are the same thing that no one has actually said.
no one has actually said.
You either need reading, or writing lessons, or both.
Calm down, no one has said that the US and North Korea are the same...some Americans are really uptight about their country. Nobody lives in a perfect country, just learn to accept some criticism. :P
Can we all agree that that no country is without homophobia, transphobia, racism, and misogyny? For the people outside of the US I've read horror stories about places like Australia, Italy, France and the UK. Some countries are more forward thinking than others but every single country has faults. This thread shouldn't be about which country is better or worse.
Exactly! No country is perfect!
I mean, people got beaten up last year at Gay Pride in my town, and it's generally a very, very accepting place. You get jerks everywhere.
I live in a town where the gay kids beat up the kids who are more gay than them!! Like the more manly gay guys beat up on all the more feminine gay guys... They have also, somehow incorperated sexual orientation into the quote "popular" crowd... There are tons of gay kids who are popular, but the outcasts who are gay are beaten up 2 times as bad since they are gay and not popular!!
It's nuts here... And the U.S. doesn't totally suck... our economy is crap and we are slowly spiraling towards disaster, but at the moment we are stable...
Where I live, there is not much acceptance of anyone outside the "norm" which happens to be all rednecks!!
I wouldn't know what happens to trangender people around here... None of us are out of the closet lol
I think it can be very hard for transgender people in some areas of the US. But I also think there is another factor, it is this:
How well do you pass? I see photos of some of you, expecially who were blessed to transition early in your teens and twenties, and you pass very well. BUT if you were like me, you can look like an man in a dress,...it can be very tough and you do go around with a target on your back. Teenagers can be so cruel. Some adults are still like teenagers, they make snide remarks or look at you funny or turn to the person they are sitting with and start talking while they point to you....if you pass well, you never have this happen...but if you don't it is a part of the transgender life. It will always be with us who don't pass well. Some people just did not have the looks and bodies and money to get there.... Regardless of how much we sacrifice, we will never be there..and it is hard, very hard some days. My heart goes out to you if you are like me...Sometimes I tell the Lord I feel cursed...cause I do. Lord forgive me.