Some things I am are Atheistic, Liberal minded, And a huge Science fan particularly biology... With this particular setup of personallity you'd have gathered I wasn't organized religions #1 fan. But that was fine, I recognised some pepole needed that it I personally didn't. Some of them are douches but I would just roll my eyes.
Then I begun my transition and it's not always so easy... 3 seperate incidents...
3 years ago a GP who told me I won't be assisted with transition and I have a sexual fetish.
last year somtime a Christian Dentist changed his mind about registering me with his practice learning of why I took spiro and estrogen.
And a few months ago the christian property Agent who moved in with me inquired insulted assailed with angry bible quotes then attempts at eviction. By far the worst as I couldn't get away and the torment and impending peril of begin homeless at any moment and having to abide the whims of my tormentor went on for months
At the time of these events the only emotions I felt were fear, humilation and self-loathing. This passed in time and I didn't think I was too badly effected by what I'd been through the occasional nightmare.
I recognised afterward however I was becoming fearful of christians in general when someone would declare there religion I'd feel a need to not reveal myself defensively lie and be dishonest about myself.
not wanting a phobia to become entrenched, I did what I always do to overcome my fears... Face them and immerse myself in them.
I visted various christian groups, went to the religious seminars at uni, spoke to them and was open about myself and my past, these pepole wern't part of my life and couldn't really hurt me from such distance.
But they did somehow. I found 2/3rds of them to be just as bad as the monsters who harmed me or WORSE and I found myself having to relive my nightmares over and over under there judgemental pointing fingers when they would openly defend the actions of my attackers, And provide biblical justifcation on why my feelings and pleas for understanding were irrelivent. "Man's heart can be mislead or tricked gods word is absolute and infallable."
A few days ago I couldn't concentrate on my work Everything just bugged and distracted me the slightest noise movement or anything. unable to even read I went off to be alone center myself and calm down.
I suddenly found myself blurting out how angry and furious I was at the above events that have transpired eventually declaring how I HATE all christians I dispise them all so much and I want to subject every one of them suffer in unspeakable anguish and humilation like I did.
I felt better after getting it out but still angry.
I've never felt true hate in myself before, I didn't know howto deal with it.
it's not a nice thing to have inside myself. I'm looking at solutions for overcoming it but unfortunately most of these self help books have a distinctly christian edge to them refering to religious elements a good way of making me go berserk and making the problem worse.
Even hearing a christian speak on unrelated matters now infuriates me and I will presume the reasoning they have on matters is simplisticaly "They are all Racist, Chauvanistic, Vindictive"
Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:9
Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.
They never will feel regret, humility, or guilt towards people like us. They think they are right and righteous and we are wrong. Simple. You won't change the majority of their minds, so stop trying.
You said it above, let it go. Get over it. Move on, life's too short. They have the issues, NOT YOU. It's not your responsibility to educate the uneducated. There's a lot of ignorant people in the world, just not Christians, but in all religions. And any religion if taken to extremes, will amount to the same hatred, fear, intolerance and ignorance. I'm not a fan of any organized religion. Spirituality is really a personal thing for each person IMHO.
Oh, I can sympathize with you on the hateful landlord situation. Been there, done that. Not fun at all.
What about the members of this forum that are Christians?
Quote from: Rabbit on March 08, 2011, 09:06:22 AM
What to do about it? Stay away from christians! Seriously, it is a cult. They put on the happy face of "love everyone", but when you actually get down to business... it is really a vehicle for hate and control.
The "I'm christian but I don't really do anything but take the kids to see santa once a year" are a little safer. But, still, they take their cues from a general "this is how christians should be" mantra (and, most have never actually read the bible that they are living their lives by)... this means if they see a bunch of christians running down the road to burn the "evil gays", they will probably join in because they want to live up to the ideal of "how a christian should be".
Basically, christianity (and other religions) give people a way to push their agenda onto others. It has been this way for a very very long time. From kings claiming the "backing of god", to egypt and each of the different gods giving the leadership authority... down to the shaman who tricks everyone in the village to believe he is able to wield the powers of nature and life.
When I run across someone who attends church... i keep things on a very work-only relationship. I consider them dangerous (as in, they have the capacity to violently kill you and support horrible things happening to you... the ring leader just needs to rattle their cage to get them worked up about an issue, like the republicans do with gay marriage).
At the end of the day, they are living their lives based on fantasy. They are lacking some mental capacity to see the major logic flaws in their beliefs (try to debate christians about why they believe what they do, it ALWAYS ends up as "just because i do"... ALWAYS).... and that mental defect can very easily carry over to other parts of life (such as beating you to death because you aren't living in a way they approve of).
It is scary stuff, and the reason a lot of really bad things can / do happen.
((And this all carries to other religions as well, jewdism and some of the more philosophical religions are less dangerous, but still plenty of cultish behaviour to make you worried)))
i agree. i've found out that those christian people that think we're abominations has nothing to do with "god made a mistake." it's only their own hate group. the bible says nothing that i know of that males need to be masculine or females need to be feminine. that is the real argument, because the rest of their argument holds no water. they are truly very uneducated people who believe in living a life by a book, not with any real morals or values. they think this is "the word of god." they have no business speaking the word of god. they would be the ones going to hell, because they create war in society. jesus had long hair, and was very peaceful and passive. he was feminine if you ask me. so changing sex or being homosexual, those have nothing to do with anything.
btw, the more devaut ones are very misogynist people. thinking men are superior to the women.
In my experience, the religion is not the problem, so much as the kind of person who uses religion - be it Christianity, Islam or anything else - as a vehicle to express their own feelings of intolerance, hatred, fear, inadequacy, aggression and so on. This kind of fundamentalist mindset crops up in politics, too ... in sports: the kind of crazed fan who thinks that in order to support his team he has to hate someone else's ... in single-issue politics, be it environmentalism, sex/gender activism (there are some pretty hard-core transsexuals out there). Some people are just filled with hate and there's an end of it.
On the other hand, a person who believed in the kind of Christianity I can respect (though I am not a believer myself) would be tolerant, compassionate, loving and understanding on the basis that we are all God's creatures and all equally deserving of love. That's certainly what Jesus taught, and his entire ministry was about helping the poor, the excluded and the persecuted members of society. I actually attend my local church because I love the hymns and find the services bring me a sense of calm and reassurance ... and one of the other members of our small, village congregation is an elderly post-op MTF. She is always treated with respect and kindness by the other people there. These Christians look on her as a person, not a stereotype ... and I guess we should look on them the same way.
Meanwhile, if the Bible itself won't persuade the morons who are biased against transpeople, I give you the gospel according to Lady Gaga ...
I'm beautiful in my way,
'Cause God makes no mistakes
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way
People or groups whose primary religious descriptor is "Christian" are likely to hurt you, judge you, treat you badly. Generic "Christian" in the US has become a word primarily used by a particular brand of evangelical fundamentalist. "Christian" means "homophobic megachurch member." Especially if it's given as a major part of a person's or group's identity.
There are Christians and Christian groups who aren't like that. You'll typically find them calling themselves Episcopalian, or Anglican, or Catholic (the Catholic Church is a horrible homophobic organization, but American Catholics themselves have a long tradition of tolerance and liberalism from their predominantly Irish, Italian, and Hispanic Roots), or Lutheran, or Quaker/Friends, or otherwise identifying themselves by their denomination. They're as Christian as the others (by some standards more so - the tolerant denominations tend to put more emphasis on the words of Jesus and the Gospels, and less on Leviticus and Paul). And when you say you hate Christians, they'll often take it to mean you hate them, and they'll be hurt. But they (by and large) aren't hateful people.
I grew up in an Anglican/Episcopalian church, and while I'm an atheist and always have been (I was born this way as surely as I was born trans and gay) I still love the church and the people in it. My priest was gay, and it was from him, and from the congregation's unconditional love and acceptance of him and his partner (now husband) that I learned to start to accept myself. And even now when I'm down and lonely I know I can go to an Episcopal church and be loved and welcomed and fed. I don't believe in what they believe in...hell, something like 30% of church membership is some variant of atheist/agnostic...but I believe they're good and decent people. And they're Christian.
But Christian clubs, associations, bible study groups, megachurches...even if they start out ecumenical and tolerant, they're quickly hijacked by the right-wing misogynistic homophobes, because they're loud and obnoxious and intolerant and utterly convinced of their moral superiority. Just stay away from them.
this is why god doesn't come back to earth yet.
Dear Pebbles,
I am so sorry that things are so tough and you have to go through these things. It is true, I hate the proclamation of Christianity as some divine title that qualifies everyone who claims it with superiority. It is disgusting and wrong.
I will not claim it, because I feel it is a false shroud, that so many people cling to, believing it makes the better than others.
It is nearly impossible to love people who mistreat us and cause us harm. I find myself so angry at people like that. Angry and resentful. I am very defensive of the people I love. These so called Christians are ignorant hypocrites. They do not follow the one commandment they are given. Love one another as you would be loved.
I have a neighbor who is Christian and she is very accepting and understanding. My brother is a wonderful Christian. There are some really good people too that claim to be Christian. I believe in my heart though that they are great, not because of Christianity, but because the are sincere and good by nature to begin with.
We are thinking of you. We wish you the best always. Sorry that you are having these terrible difficulties.
Many Hugs.
Roxy & Patty
One of the first things you have to realise is that Christians come in many forms.
In general it is the more extreme flavours like Roman Catholics and Evangelicals that are likely to be a pain in the arse. However in amongst all the dross and pharisees there are also some genuinely good and kind people. The trouble is they generally aren't the ones you will notice. They aren't the ones that shout and make the noise. They are the ones who will just help you, and then years later you accidentally find out their religious affiliation.
I have to say I too have a dislike of people who too quickly and openly try to push their Christianity in my face. Apart from anything else such people are often profoundly UNchristian in their behaviour and merely using the faith as a tool to legitimise their own bigotry.
As I was once a lay preacher myself I take great delight in using my superior knowledge of their holy book to publicly debate them and win.
I don't know how you can get past the fear, but I hope it may help you to realise that not everyone who CLAIMS Christian faith, genuinely has a Christian heart, and indeed that some who do have a Christian heart may not choose to own the label.
So your tormentors may not truly be what the claim to be.
Just out of curiosity, Pebbles, what geographic area do you live in?
I have met several perfectly rational Christians. I nice rule of thumb I've found is that if hey mention God in their daily life beyond "goddamn it," or introduce themselves as Christian/Catholic/what have you without prompting, probably want to stay away.
I myself am mainly agnostic, with a minor belief in the Old Ones. They don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about us, and when they come back we're all going to die.
Quote from: Serra on March 08, 2011, 11:00:08 AM
Just out of curiosity, Pebbles, what geographic area do you live in?
I have met several perfectly rational Christians. I nice rule of thumb I've found is that if hey mention God in their daily life beyond "goddamn it," or introduce themselves as Christian/Catholic/what have you without prompting, probably want to stay away.
I myself am mainly agnostic, with a minor belief in the Old Ones. They don't give a ->-bleeped-<- about us, and when they come back we're all going to die.
I live in southern england.
I try to rationalize it and seggregate the different denominations in my mind that's why I sought out so many other christians. So I could tell myself "Most of them are decent. It was just those three or so who turned out to be monsters."
But when 2/3rds or so came back to bite me, I kinda lost that ablity. 66% of 2Billion is a massive number.
Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 11:44:15 AM
But when 2/3rds or so came back to bite me, I kinda lost that ablity. 66% of 2Billion is a massive number.
Only 2/3rds? You were doing well then!
I go by the theory that if maybe 10% of the people who claim any particular faith actually practice it in a way which truly helps the world then we are doing well. Some of the rest will eventually see the light, others will continue to blunder through life leaving a trail of hurt and injury behind them in the wake of their unpleasant rhetoric and polemic.
The trouble is you can't tell the wheat from the chaff, and in bible itself it warns us not to try and judge others. So there isn't really a solution to the dilemma other than to try avoid prejudice. In just the same way that we don't want someone outside the community to judge us on some bad experience that they once had with someone who claimed to be trans, we must not make the same mistake when it comes to religious people.
we must not make the same mistake when it comes to religious people.
Really? I find that people who believe in invisible sky gods, zombies that were dead, but yet, not dead, original sin and all the rest to be proof enough.
Quote from: riven1 on March 08, 2011, 09:57:47 AM
What about the members of this forum that are Christians?
A Christian lives by the teachings of Jesus. One of the most important is, that we must never judge each other on behalf of God.
As Carlita points out, these people are using their claims to justify their own intolerance.
But Pebbles. I really feel for you and where you are. Being surrounded by such people, whatever their claims to justification, will grind you down.
I do hope you can get away from such people.
I was talking to my doctor, who is a transwoman, about coming out to various people and her response was, "what business is it of theirs?" Do these people who are so intolerant really need to know that you are trans? What are you really accomplishing by coming out to all of these people? Perhaps, if these kinds of people get to know you and respect you as a person before they know that you're trans their opinion of trans people might change.
Realizing that you are capable of hate is not an easy thing to come to terms with. It's a dark part of us that we would rather not look it. Often hate is driven by fear. I understand that you're angry with these people and that they are treating you unfairly but perhaps your reaction really coming from your fear of these people and the fact that you have no control over there opinions and actions. I willing to bet that more often than not their reaction to you comes from the same place as your hate for them. They don't understand what you're going through and are afraid of not only the unknown but of what is means for them. Some of the homophones that I've know eventually came to realize that they are gay. I'm not saying these people are trans but you're making them question their own gender identity. I don't think that this is something most people ever do, they are comfortable with their gender even if their not completely comfortable with their gender role.
My point to all of this is that if you don't want to hate them then have compassion for them and this is easier to do if you understand them.
My Buddhist teacher told me a story about compassion that I hope you don't mind me telling.
Your are riding on a subway, it comes into the station and a man and his two children get on. The man sits across from you and stares at the floor while his two kids go wild running around the train bothering everyone there. The man does nothing to control his kids. At the next stop he barks at his kids that this is their stop and to get off the train with him. Later you find out that they had just come from the hospital where his wife and their mother had just died.
If you had known that was going on you might have acted differently then just sitting there getting angry at these people.
Compassion is also a christian value and if these people were really practicing christianity they would be trying to understand you not showing you hate, which is not a christian value.
Me to evangelical preacher: Can God read your mind?
Preacher: Yes and no, but he does not regard the actions of your mind so much as the actions you take with your body.
Me: ... Why does the new testament exist?
Preacher: Because God makes mistakes, and this was his way of atoning for them.
God and I are at peace.
Pebbles, I can't say I blame you. The most traumatic time period of my life is thanks to Catholicism and like you, I harbor an unhealthy hatred and downright terror of most religious people. I agree with avoiding them as much as possible, and I'd honestly say don't try and make any kind of personal relationships with them. I've tried to keep friendships with people who were religious and it's never, ever worked. Acceptance goes both ways. If they won't accept you for something you have no control over, then there's no reason you should even try to accept them for being morons. I can tell you, like others have stated, they're not all like this. My mother's some form of Christian, and she's incredibly accepting. There's always going to be exceptions, but that's no reason to go out and start looking for them.
I just hold to the notion - not radical at all - that extraordinary claims require extraordinarily proof.
To date, no one seems to have such proof.
Quote from: tekla on March 08, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
I just hold to the notion - not radical at all - that extraordinary claims require extraordinarily proof.
To date, no one seems to have such proof.
Until there is proof, I consider myself a loyal follower of Lord Inglip.
There are way too many contradictions in religion, and why let someone tell you what your morals are. Frankly, I can decide that for myself. Woohoo for moral relativism! Ghandi once said something about liking Jesus Christ, but that a great many 'Christians' are nowhere near Christ-like. The thread was about 'Christians', so that's why I'm not talking about any other religions. In the meantime, before we figure out which god is the true god, let's just be nice to each-other.
for the record, i do believe in god. next, i also believe in the christ period. i do not believe in going to a church to have to validate my beliefs, or that i have to not eat meat on the certain calendar days of the year. being an extremist is not good in anyone or anything. if i'm considered a "christian" i don't know. my mom did make me go to ccd classes to get baptised, communion, and confirmation, but my religion really only goes as far as my first two sentences, that's it. i don't have a need to outdo my religion compared to someone else with the thought of it making me a "better person." if you want to be a better person, you need to get your head out of the clouds and live in the land of the living.
Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.
You live near to Southampton don't you hun? If you do, next time you're around I'll teach you some quantum theology, a highly speculative branch of theology i invented in the street one day to break the tiny little minds of a couple of incredibly tanned mormons with very nice teeth (why is it that mormons always have nice teeth?). It works really well on jehovas witnesses as well.
I have often felt the same seething rage towards Christians. Catholics in particular. Everyone in my churc just gossiped gossiped gossiped. "Why doesn't her husband come to church? Is their marriage on the rocks?" "OMG the girl who led Sunday School got pregnant, WHORE!" Shamed everyone into their respective closets. School was even worse for that, most of the teachers were bitter and spewing venom about the dumbest crap.
What does help me is thinking about my one grandma. She's very religious but she doesn't pass judgment...it is no secret that she is devout but she loves me and accepts me. My grandpa too. He struggles more with it but he knows I was born like this ("God made you exactly like this"), he knows that this is something I need to do. He mostly worries for my health.
In addition. It's just them. As I said, they all live in their respective closets. My family hides the stupidest things, like, one person out of the 150+ relatives in two generations got a divorce. Oh noez! Haha. But it just leads to them shaming themselves. They have their own struggles, even if they may not be necessarily as hard and as socially stigmatized as GID. I just leave them to deal with their own ->-bleeped-<-; I choose to love.
It's always frustrating that the actions of a few can have such a strongly negative effect. Pebbles, it truly sucks to have to deal with these people, but know that there are thousands of us on here supporting you. I'm going to guess we outnumber the people who have given you a hard time. It also cheers me up to think that we have to deal with rude people for a very minimal amount of time. They are stuck with themselves 24/7, and I think that's a pretty good punishment.
As for the religious debate, all I have to say is that decent people come in all forms. My mother is Christian, and my father was raised Mormon (though, he isn't anymore), and they're about as non-judgmental as you can get. I've been taught to have an intolerance only of people who are intolerant. I'm not out as trans, but I am openly bi, which has been a complete non-issue with them. My friends come from a wide variety of religions, and none of them have ever taken issue with it either. In fact, my devoutly Catholic friend was offended that I had reservations about introducing her to my then girlfriend. I guess this is starting to ramble, but my point is that, even if some or many members of a religion hold a certain view, that doesn't give us a right to judge everyone within that belief. I don't see how religious intolerance should be any more acceptable than intolerance for sexual orientation, race, or gender identification.
(I'll step off my soap box now.)
Quote from: spacial on March 08, 2011, 12:39:40 PM
A Christian lives by the teachings of Jesus. One of the most important is, that we must never judge each other on behalf of God.
As Carlita points out, these people are using their claims to justify their own intolerance.
But Pebbles. I really feel for you and where you are. Being surrounded by such people, whatever their claims to justification, will grind you down.
I do hope you can get away from such people.
Well said. I just hope that the supercluster of Christians about 80 miles south of me in "Holy Roller Central" have more tolerance for others who are different than themselves. These are the ones who sent a 'counselor' to try to disuade a mother on the acceptance of her transgendered child on the Dr. Phil show. The mother wouldn't budge! Good for her, I had a mom just like her!
Joelene, a Christian.
Quote from: Lee on March 08, 2011, 04:02:11 PMI don't see how religious intolerance should be any more acceptable than intolerance for sexual orientation
While I'm rational enough to recognize my feelings I can't stop them. And I can see it's not necessarily fair or reasonable to hold such extreme anger towards people who regardless of what they believe haven't personally harmed me.
But I can't stop seeing them as potential threats seeing those who've hurt me inside them through there religious conviction. I feel that belief makes them vicious and cruel.
Pebbles,
I am so sorry that you have had such horrible things said to you by Christians. I have to say though, that I am a Christian and I take my faith very seriously. I know what you have gone through as I too have had similar cruel things done and said to me all in the name of Christianity. I too live in the UK. But and I have to say I know God loves me and has given me a wonderful new life to live. Please don't tar all Christians with the same brush and please try and not blame my God. Its hard I know to put things out of your mind that have hurt so much. In my church I have found so many caring and loving people. I have been in many churches and the one I worship and fellowship in today is the best I have ever been in. So not all are the same.
What can I suggest? Well, I would say to let God judge them, not you. I believe they will answer to him one day, if not today or tomorrow. If we hold things like hate in our heart it becomes like a cancer that eats away at our souls, it grows bigger and bigger until there is nothing left of ourselves but hate. As Yoda said, anger turns to hate and hate turns to suffering. There is real truth in that what ever you believe. We become consumed by it. Look beyond their limited theological understanding of transsexualism and leave it to their God (my God too) to do his thing, he will.
I am sorry to speak in terms of my faith but that's the only way I can express it even if you don't have any faith.
Stardust (A UK Christian)
Rabbit, I find what you have just said offensive and subjective and inaccurate. I have a BA (hons) and a post grade in education. I am currently taking an MA. Ignorant, not able to think critically, I don't think so. O! did I mention I was a Christian.
Stardust
:police: @rabbit Yes actually I was just contemplating whether a post stating, in effect, that all Christians were ignorant unintelligent frauds, in a thread where there are already members who have admitted holding christian faith didn't constitute a thinly veiled form of personal attack.
As I have contributed to the thread already I am not going to formally moderate it, but this is a friendly warning that in my opinion you are treading very close to the boundaries on several points of forum Terms Of Service here.
Please be very careful where you take this or other moderators may wish to do what I have not.
Many Christians may be offensive and hurtful to us, but that does NOT give anyone the right to declare open season on all of them.
Thank you. :police:
Granted, I most likely will not be diggin' any religion any time soon, but at the same time I'm not going to disrespect another person's beliefs nor will I stoop to the level of a hater
Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 04:14:19 AM
I'm not saying that. Intelligence has a wide range of ways it manifests... logic and reasoning just happens to be a certain aspect of that. I'm not randomly trying to insult christians, just explaining why things are as they are.
If you want to start a thread on religion and debate it back and forth until all the christians post "just because", we can... I have debated this subject many many many times over the years, and it is ALWAYS the final response... again, this isn't meant to be insulting, this is simply what the end of the road is when you dig a little deeper into someones "faith"... always, for everyone. I have never run into a religious person who remotely was able to support why they think what they do. For intellectuals and philosophers, this is a BIG BIG BIG problem.
And this isn't simply a wild claim or an observation born of little experience. I have spoken with rabbi, priests, people young and old (of varrying levels of faith), I have joined christian groups and forums to discuss with them, and ALWAYS (I really can't stress this enough) they have ended with "just because".
This isn't meant to be insulting... I'm not saying these things to randomly insult people (even though of course no one wants to hear that their faith is baseless).
If you feel I am wrong, if you feel that YOUR faith has a strong reason behind it, step up and explain it (but be ready because I will challenge what you say and think... and unless you are confident you can defend that, it will end up "just because"... and, even if you are confident, you will not be for long when i begin to rip apart your arguments...).
That is the thing. I can say these things because I am very confident I can back it up. If you want me to start pulling out facts and go into further detail about why christianity (or other religions) are dangerous, I am more than happy to (such as how christians used to force jews to wear stars to identify them, which was later adopted by the nazi... or the more subtle phenomenon where a social climate is created through disapproving / intolerant views which allow for many of the things we see in a society like america *basically, this is how seemingly harmless people help fuel the actions of others... you don't need to physically pull the gun to be responsible for why a transsexual was murdered. Do you think homosexuality or transsexuals face the issues they do because of a very limited number of vocal "extremists"? It is actually a lot more than that.. western society is heavily influenced by christianity, even those who do not identify directly as christian... for example, the entire overreaction to nudity and viewing the human body as "dirty". Yup, this is a christian thing *you need to follow back the societal history a bit to find out how*).
So, no, I'm not being overly dramatic or unfair to label religion as I have. The effects touch almost every aspect of our lives (to such an extent that many people don't even realize much of it comes from religious teachings).
I'm sorry but I'm not even going to waist my time answering this except the writings of historical fact about Jesus of Galilee in the writings of Josephus, etc. There is more historical evidence than there is for Julius Ceaser another JC. There are other manuscripts numbering thousands regarding biblical evidence of other events, histories and they uphold against critical analysis.
Quote from Rabbit.
If you feel I am wrong, if you feel that YOUR faith has a strong reason behind it, step up and explain it (but be ready because I will challenge what you say and think... and unless you are confident you can defend that, it will end up "just because"... and, even if you are confident, you will not be for long when i begin to rip apart your arguments...).
I find your arrogance actually goes beyond disbelief.
Stardust
@rabbit I don't debate the validity of religious belief for precisely that reason. It is a futile activity doomed to fail before it even starts in which neither party will win.
The thing you seem to be missing is that it is not necessary for someone to justify their beliefs to you. I could not give monkey's bum whether you choose to believe something or not. It does not concern me one way or another.
Why do I believe? I am not so sure that I do. I may, I may not. I have had periods of faith, I have also had periods of no faith. I can follow the logic of belief, I can follow the logic of disbelief. If you asked me what I believe today, you will get a different answer from the one you would have got yesterday, and indeed tomorrow's answer will be different again.
The REASON why is unimportant. It is the end result, good or bad, which matters. At the end of the day all that matters is whether a particular set of beliefs or disbeliefs help the person to live their lives in a way that they are satisfied with.
I would say that there are many people on this planet,who tend to be "Romulans" emotional and passionate and doing things mainly because they "feel" they are right. Then there are those who tend to be "Vulcans" guided by logic. They need reasons. They need someone to be able to defend and justify. By observation I would say you tend towards this approach, but don't make the mistake of trying to judge everyone by this metric because those of us who tend towards the Romulan approach simply don't understand your need for reason to be supreme.
In any case this thread is supposed to be about dealing with phobia induced by bad experiences with religious people. I feel that in trying to open it up into a debate about the validity of a particular faith we are in danger of getting somewhat bogged down.
Rabbit, I don't think you're wrong, but I think you're over the line. This is supposed to be a supportive forum. You don't have the right to demand that people justify their beliefs.
Many people here have sincerely struggled because the teachings of their faith conflict with their identity and the way they need to live their lives. Most trans and gay religious people are very well aware of the discrimination and persecution perpetrated by various religions. But for whatever reason, their beliefs are important to them - in many cases a core part of who they are, a source of stability and cultural identity.
It doesn't matter why. It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong. The last thing they need, when they come here for support, is to be attacked from the other direction. They need to feel respected as human beings. They need to feel accepted.
I'm an atheist. I share many of your opinions of religion. I can't believe in God; I can't even imagine believing in a god. And I know that the history of religion is largely a long, sad story of oppression, discrimination, war, and genocide. But when people are raised within a framework of a certain set of beliefs, those beliefs (usually) become a part of them. That doesn't make them stupid. It doesn't make them dangerous. It just makes them human. Sometimes I suspect that my inability to adopt those beliefs makes me less human...I know it makes me different. And not necessarily in a good way.
But you...you think you're special in a good way. This isn't the only post you've made to that effect. Maybe you are, I don't know, I don't really know you. But I know that the way you're behaving in this thread is negative, and it's hurting people. Decent, good, human people who came here for help, not for a debate. Please stop.
Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
how do you overcome it?
I don't. I use my hate to make myself stronger. I start listening to Christrian radio stations. I start studying Biblical debates. I make myself malevolently informed about my enemies.
They aren't the only ones who can play mind games on people. If that's the way they want to play, I'm game. I can roll with that. If they want a battle of wits, I will come well armed.
My interpretation of a 'christian' reading the bible.
Stone your kid to death for talking back...(forget i just read that), turn page..
Kill your wife on her wedding night if she is not a virgin...(forget i just read that)...turn page
Kill my neighbor if he works on the sabbath (but he cuts my grass) turn page.
Hate homosexuals...ah, finally! Something I can use.
Quote
that all Christians were ignorant unintelligent frauds
All I can say is
We all will find out in the end, Who's Right!
I always find it interesting that when religion is debated, it seems the unbelievers or haters speak up the most.
Weird! is that guilt?
Until someone can PROVE to me there is NO GOD, I will continue to believe.
My proof there is GOD. LIFE!
Shelly
Unfortunately it is impossible for a Christian to give a reason you will accept as valid. No matter how hard they try, no matter how thoughtful it is, those who dislike Christianity will close their minds and deny what was said.
I am a Christian, I have made no secret of that in these forums. I don't debate it, I don't give excuses for it. I made an decision to believe when I was 30 (yes thirty years old, and a reasoning adult).
I am not here to convince others, I don't push my faith on others, that decision is up to each individual on their own.
What I am saying is that I will Lock this thread if people can conduct themself more tolerantly of others beliefs.
Global Moderator (Susan's Forums)
Sarah Louise
Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 05:15:00 PM
While I'm rational enough to recognize my feelings I can't stop them. And I can see it's not necessarily fair or reasonable to hold such extreme anger towards people who regardless of what they believe haven't personally harmed me.
But I can't stop seeing them as potential threats seeing those who've hurt me inside them through there religious conviction. I feel that belief makes them vicious and cruel.
Pebbles, I did not mean for that to be aimed at your or the experiences you shared, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. These people are (censored for the viewing of younger audiences), and I have nothing against hating them as such. It only bothers me when people hold a hatred of all members of a belief system with the assumption that they all are like that. I am not religious in any way, shape, or form, but I know many wonderful people who are.
Quote from: Lee on March 09, 2011, 10:02:04 AM
Pebbles, I did not mean for that to be aimed at your or the experiences you shared, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. These people are (censored for the viewing of younger audiences), and I have nothing against hating them as such. It only bothers me when people hold a hatred of all members of a belief system with the assumption that they all are like that. I am not religious in any way, shape, or form, but I know many wonderful people who are.
You see that's the problem I do hold that assumption. I can't overcome these feelings even if I know that "they"(Random christian) didn't directly harm me I can't help but see them as (At the very least) Apologists for those who have harmed me and if I'm told they arn't like that I assume they are dishonest and looking for away to get closer before driving another knife at me... as the christian religion instructs them to do dreadful things within it's very scriptures itself the accociation with themselves and the religion is enough for me to be frightened and potentially angry as those pepole who did those things to me openly told me they were simply doing as god instructed. This begin somthing widely universal amoungst them all only adds to my fear and negativity as it instantly makes someone implacable to others emotional pain caused by there own actions.
I struggle to just ignore those extremists and accept the majority of them because that's what I used to do and look what that attitude gave me! I don't feel a need to make them explain why they feel what they do they could belive the moon is made of cheese I wouldn't care it bothers me that see a desire to hunt and harry those whom there scripture condems who through no fault of my own I'm on that list.
Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 04:14:19 AM
I have never run into a religious person who remotely was able to support why they think what they do.
*waves* You just met one then. The following is a post I wrote some time ago on a religious forum, but it should be convincing enough for you that there are those of us, a rare few, who have a basis for their beliefs. You as an atheist will not believe what I write nor what I believe, and I make no attempt to convince you otherwise, I just wanted to show you something you've never seen before - a basis for belief.
***
"'Why do you believe what you believe?' is a question I like to ask those who profess faith or belief in anything. This is not just a question I pose to those of religious faith, but to those who believe pretty much anything. After all, how do we really know anything?
While this question of whether or not we really "know" something could have volumes written about it alone, I tend to direct my question more specifically to how an individual (specifically the individual to whom I am asking the question) knows what they know or believes what they believe. I'm not looking for the "right" or "perfect" answer, merely if there is an answer at all. I'm often surprised how many never really think this through because I consider it to be an essential element to my believing anything.
So why is this important to me? It is everything to me. I feel to properly confess belief in anything I must understand why I believe it. For instance, if you were to ask me why I believe the earth is round, I wouldn't tell you it was from personal experience - rather it is that I believe my textbooks and those professors of knowledge who have told me so. I believe the images I have seen of the earth from space and that they are not forgeries nor misconstrued.
If you asked me if I could prove the earth was round, I would not be able to do so - merely refer you to a perceived authority on the subject and let you make the decision of whether or not you believed them yourself. So you might say that I don't really "know" the earth is round and in a sense, you are absolutely correct. I don't "know" it at all. So would you say that I believe it blindly? No, that would not be correct, because my belief is based in reason - I believe that those who believe that the earth is round are telling the truth - you could say, I have "faith" in them.
Wait, how can I be talking about faith on a purely scientific subject, isn't it reserved only for religious people? Absolutely not. I have faith that the people who tell me the earth is round are telling me the truth even though I don't have the evidence myself. I have faith because I do not know of myself - I have faith because I do know with complete certainty that they are not lying to me.
So with this definition of faith, I could say that I have faith in pretty much everything. I have faith that when I rise from my chair and go to my bedroom tonight, that my bed will be as I left it. Do I have proof of this? Not from my current vantage point. My bed could indeed be missing and I would have no idea. I believe my bed is still there though I cannot say with certainty. Of course the question of the bed's existence is easy (without getting too metaphysical) as I could merely stand up and check if it is still there. The point is though, when I act on knowledge I don't immediately possess, I act with faith that what I believe is true.
Sometimes we can be deceived by our faith. Our faith in people, for instance, can be misplaced. Our faith in our bodies can also let us down. When your faith is proven wrong - in other words, when you found out that what you believed and were acting upon was not indeed true, what do you do about it? I find it important to reevaluate why it was that I believed what I did, that way I can potentially prevent a similar error in judgment.
This is why it is so very important to know why you believe what you believe. If you do not understand a belief's origins it essentially becomes tautological - an argument that by its very nature cannot have its inverse proven (basically a belief that is unprovable and impossible to disprove). While tautological arguments are not inherently bad nor immediately untrue, they can be difficult to combat when really trying to get at the basis for a belief to determine if that belief is valid or worth having.
Some base their beliefs completely upon the results of their belief. This is effective and pragmatic, but doesn't necessary make for sound arguments. For instance, "I believe that drinking is wrong, therefore I don't drink. Because I don't drink, I avoid the ills associated with drinking, therefore it validates my belief that drinking is wrong." This is pragmatic, but not necessarily true (or logical). I find that often this is enough for a person's basis in belief and many are content to leave it at that.
I personally feel that I must have more and in that am generally an incredibly skeptical person. That being said, I am also an incredibly religious person. Can a skeptic be religious? I say of course. A skeptic is someone who questions something, but even a skeptic who finds enough evidence to believe something can exercise faith in it. As such, I have enough evidence to convince me that my religious beliefs are worthwhile.
So to come full circle - why do I believe what I believe? Using the reasoning I described above, it can be safely assumed that anything I believe in I have a reason for that is generally faith based. Even when I experience something myself, I must still exercise some faith that what I perceived to be real was indeed as I perceived it to be. This goes for everything: from faith that my bed is where I left it, faith that my car will take me all the way to school, faith that some great discovery will not turn modern neuroscience on its head and force me to change my major, and finally even faith that my religious beliefs are valid.
Because so many of the other elements of faith are very intuitive to those reading this blog, I will focus the rest of this discussion on why I believe what I believe religiously and why am I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I believe that the man Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, that he saw God and Jesus Christ, that they revealed to him that he should reform God's true and original church in these latter days. As such, I believe that what Joseph Smith said God told him to do, God did indeed tell him to do and it was for a wise purpose even if I do not fully understand it. I believe that the church he formed is God's true and living church upon the earth today and it will endure until Jesus Christ returns again. I believe that He, Jesus Christ is the head of this church and is guiding and directing its leaders today. I believe therefore that what the leaders of my church advise us to do is true, that it is from God directly for me to hear and that I will obey as if commanded by God Himself.
But why do I believe these things? While I have had many positive experiences since having joined the church, it is my initial experiences in the end that have convinced me. I believe that after opening my heart to the idea that it could be true, and exercising faith to find out for myself if it was indeed true, that God Himself revealed to me that the church is true and that Joseph Smith was his prophet. He revealed it to me by a power I cannot completely describe, but one of such force that I am convinced totally that it was God who spoke to me, and that if I were to deny it, it would be as if denying that I am alive I am so convinced of it."
***
I went on but it was a bunch of religious stuff that doesn't apply to the point I was trying to make. You are correct in your assumption that most religious people eventually devolve their faith arguments into "just because" but not everyone is like that - for me, "just because" is not and never will be enough. I wouldn't be a member of ANY religion today if it were not for the spiritual experience I had telling me to join this specific church. I'm very agnostic by nature - and it took an act of what I perceived to be God to change that.
To the peanut gallery who understably hate Mormons: This post is not an open invitation to discuss the legitimacy of anything Mormon, I just wanted to make the point to Rabbit that some of us exist that believe they have a basis for their faith.
Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 08:32:42 AM
BUT in general, I do feel feel that religious people need to justify their beliefs to me (and it is my duty to mentally shred that belief to pieces).
Why? Well, simply because these people are getting in my business (and a lot of others here)... they are the reason trans people feel the need to be in hiding...
But, you might say that not all religious people are the ones doing this. The thing is, most of them actually are (on one issue or another).
I see ABSOLUTELY no evidence that ANY of the religious members here have ever done such a thing to anyone here. So your case is far from proven and if you start shredding anyone here you will be simply completely out order and liable to the full force of the moderation penalties which WILL acrue from any such behaviour!
Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 08:32:42 AM
You see, when a persons belief system tells them that another person is wrong... the person with the belief system begins to distance themselves from that other person.
Which of course is EXACTLY what you are also doing in this thread. Your belief system has told you that religious people are wrong and you are therefore beginning to distance yourself from them.
In your mind they are on trial - they have to justify themselves etc etc....
So unfortunately you are now hoisted by your own petard.
Enough!
So stop it already, before you give either me or one of my esteemed colleagues a reason to place you under formal moderation.
I forget where I got this from... I suppose it doesn't matter.
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual "uncleanliness" - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan.
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education, University of Virginia.
PS (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian)
Dear Dr. Laura, Why Can't I Own Canadians As Slaves? | CommonDreams.org
And this one under a picture of the tattoo:
Tattoo of Leviticus 18:22, which forbids homosexuality: $200.
The fact that Leviticus 19:28 forbids tattoos: Priceless.
And this has always bothered me: When and why did everything in the Bible get names and numbers? Ahhhh...I think someone just wanted to take something out of context and put a name and number on it to look official. But I could be wrong. Thats something I believe in without any faith of it being true.
Augh, I should never have started reading this thread. I have no interest in critiqueing, praising, denegrating or arguing about anyones faith unless they're getting in my face about it or using it to justify something I find ahorrent or unjustifiable. Or they're preaching too loudly and it wakes me up.
Plus, I tend to deal with anything like the OP is on about on an individual basis so didn't feel like I had much to add.
*Begin Derail*
But then I read this
Quote from: stardust on March 09, 2011, 04:41:22 AM
I'm sorry but I'm not even going to waist my time answering this except the writings of historical fact about Jesus of Galilee in the writings of Josephus, etc. There is more historical evidence than there is for Julius Ceaser another JC. There are other manuscripts numbering thousands regarding biblical evidence of other events, histories and they uphold against critical analysis.
So now I have to comment.. and not to beat about the bush, Stardust this is a lie. End of. Since you brought up Josephus I'll use him too... there have been more arguments since the 16th century about the validity of his Testimonium ( the one where he writes of Jesus) than there have been total posts on Susans. Any and all non-religious text relating to Christ is highly debatable and whether or not any piece passes critical analysis is in the eye of the beholder and is usually predicated on personal faith in my experience.
Many things are mentioned in the bible that certainly happened, but the fact that a religious text contemporary to the Roman Empire or Assyrian Empire or various Egyptian Pharoes mentions them does not validate or prove the veracity of the religion, only that the people writing about it, you know, went outside and paid taxes inbetween scribbling things down and mentioned some of it while writing something later incorporated in the bible. Using this as evidentiary justification for more esoteric parts of the texts is an infantile argument and one rarely used even in theological courses at university level except as an example of something not to do.
Likewise many figures mentioned in religious texts feature in historical texts, (Pharoes are a good example again) and there are a few historical manuscripts that suggest that figures correlatable to those more widely known as John the Baptist or Jesus of Galilee probably existed.... again, this does nothing to settle the case as to whether the latter was the son of God, prophet of Allah or mad wandering tabloid darling of his day. It just notes that a person of that common name from that populated place caused a ruckus. To imply that non-biblical verification of this existence is prima facia proof of their biblical and deific status is dependent on personal faith, not empirical fact.
And as for there being more historical references( excluding religious text) to Jesus than Julius Caesar? I'm not even going to dignify that with a counter argument. Use google if that bothers you.
Incidentally, on that well covered other JC, Julius Caesar was deified by the Romans after his death, does that mean you believe he was a God, since he definitely existed and it was decided he was the son of a God and raised to be one ?
*end derail*
Apologies to anyone who finds all or part of that derogatory to their beliefs, but I spent quite a chunk of my life at various levels of university picking up qualifications in archaeology, ancient history, medieval literature and mediterranean/levantine historical culture and I find blind statements like Stardusts to be personally and professionally insulting, so I stuck my oar in.
Quote from: Rabbit on March 09, 2011, 08:32:42 AM
When I see someone picking on someone because they are different, I also tend to speak up. Should I just keep quiet because saying they are bigoted would insult them?
Your attitude is no less bigoted and dismissive of peoples faith as some (notice the qualifier some here) religious folks attitude towards the LGBT comunity in general and the transgeder comunity in particular. Fighting hate with hate does not make you noble, merely another hate monger.
Now this thread has been derailed enough, it was a request for help on how to deal with a phobia towards christians that has been brought about by the actions of a few, not to declare open season on the faith in general.
I am politely, but firmly asking you to dissist. Now. If you continue in this frankly unbecoming manner I will sadly be forced to take punitive action, up to and including giving you a warning. As has so rightly been pointed out, bashing an entire faith, when members of the forum have openly stated that they are members of that faith is bodering on an open personal attack and will not be tolerated.
I sincerely hope that i have made the stance of the forum staff absolutely clear hear an that you have not misunderstood me in anyway shap or form?
Good. Now y'all play nice, hear.
Is it okay if I actually address Pebbles's question? I know that calm, reasoned discussion is always off topic when it comes to discussions of religion on the Internet, but perhaps you could forgive me if I deviate from the script for a moment.
I think this is the heart of the matter:
Quote from: pebbles on March 08, 2011, 07:09:40 AM
At the time of these events the only emotions I felt were fear, humilation and self-loathing. This passed in time and I didn't think I was too badly effected by what I'd been through the occasional nightmare.
I recognised afterward however I was becoming fearful of christians in general when someone would declare there religion I'd feel a need to not reveal myself defensively lie and be dishonest about myself.
not wanting a phobia to become entrenched, I did what I always do to overcome my fears... Face them and immerse myself in them.
I visted various christian groups, went to the religious seminars at uni, spoke to them and was open about myself and my past, these pepole wern't part of my life and couldn't really hurt me from such distance.
...
Umm help? how do you overcome it?
I want to let go but I know they feel no regret or acknowledgement of guilt. And I know I will be hurt more if I do let go.
First of all, I'm really sorry to hear what you have gone through. That's the most important place to start from: You have done nothing wrong, and you are just trying to live your life, and these people have somehow decided that you rightly fall under their judgment. They have no excuse, whoever they are, when they judge others; for in passing judgment on another they condemn themselves, because they, the judges, are doing the very same things. (Wait, didn't I hear that somewhere before? Oh, yeah, Romans 2:1 (http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Romans+2:1). That is the
only verse that I feel is necessary to tell Christians who take it upon themselves to berate queer people. If that doesn't shut them up, then they're pretty much dead to me. This (http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Matthew+7:3-5) works too.)
But arguing who is right isn't the point, and it shouldn't be your concern. You have suffered real harm at the hands of these people, and you have good reason to be concerned about future harm. They're wrong, but so what? You can't make them be decent human beings any more than they can make you not be trans. That's just not your concern. Tell them they can go to Hell, for that's surely where they're going if their religion is right and they remain so prideful and hateful.
What you need to do is to focus on what you can change, which is yourself. If you want to join with groups that try to change laws and social mores, that's a wonderful thing, but that's going above and beyond your responsibility. I think you made a mistake in trying to "confront your fears." That only works when your fears are unreasonable. You actually have something to fear, so you need to figure out how to protect yourself. I'm not really sure what that entails but for me it's a matter of having a strong community of supportive friends and steady employment. So, for example, I don't worry that I will go homeless on account of being trans, because I have my friends, my work, and a community that doesn't have much problem, if any, with me being trans.
But it's not just fear for physical security that matters here. Part of the harm you describe is internal: the humiliation and self-loathing. In no would I suggest that it's your fault you feel that way, but I will suggest that you can change that. Those people took advantage of your frailty, the shame and self-loathing that was already present in you, and aggravated it. The best thing you can do to deal with that pain is to learn that there is really and truly nothing to be ashamed of, and that you're a wonderful person on your own accord. If anyone needs proof of that (which they shouldn't), they can find it in your original post in this thread. You are a blessing to the people around you, and if they reject that, then that's their loss. Your being trans means that you have less to be ashamed about on account of your gender, because you are one of the few people who has had to be truly honest about yourself when the easy path (at least in the short term) would have been to lie.
I can't say I'm really there, myself. But I'm doing a lot better than I used to, and I didn't get where I am by hanging around bigots; quite the contrary.
So what I suggest is this: Recognize the real harm they have caused, understand that you have nothing to apologize for, and take care of yourself physically and emotionally. If you want to reach out in reconciliation, that's nice, but the burden is on them. It's always good to treat people as individuals worthy of respect, rather than to write them off like you're doing now (which I mention because that seems to be your concern), but it's only really possible to do that when you are secure in yourself; and once you are secure, if you're a decent person (which you certainly seem to be), it tends to come pretty naturally.
Let me leave you with this: I'm Christian, and
I get nervous too when I meet someone and I find out they are Christian, because I never know, a priori, whether they are Christian in the sense of being humble, meek, non-judgmental, poor in spirit, merciful peacemakers, or in the sense of being jerks who hide behind a book to attempt to excuse their hatred.
:police:
Need I have to remind everyone of the TOS. Rule 10 covers Religious groups as well
Quote from: Rule 10.Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason. This includes but is not limited to:
- Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
- Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others
Also I am moving this to the Spirituality Section.
Quote from: Rule 16.Please limit religious discussions to the spirituality forum. If a thread in another forum turns into a religious discussion please move the thread to the spirituality forum. Our moderators will assist in this process if necessary. (This term does not apply to chat)
:police:
Ugh how they treated you is friggin disgusting.
I am still a Christian but the line of Christianity I speak of is not the mainstream.....the churches I go to are LGBT affirming and just trying to love everyone.
That being said, my church and parents and ex-wife caused me to be really worried about coming out to Christians.
My company at work was founded by a fundamentalist christian so I was very surprised when he was totally fine with my transition. It's kind of touch and go but I do agree that the majority of these "fundementalist christians" are usually bad news for us......
Quote from: Jerica on March 09, 2011, 06:50:13 PM
Ugh how they treated you is friggin disgusting.
I am still a Christian but the line of Christianity I speak of is not the mainstream.....the churches I go to are LGBT affirming and just trying to love everyone.
That being said, my church and parents and ex-wife caused me to be really worried about coming out to Christians.
My company at work was founded by a fundamentalist christian so I was very surprised when he was totally fine with my transition. It's kind of touch and go but I do agree that the majority of these "fundementalist christians" are usually bad news for us......
i think i remember a thread you made a while back. your mom doesn't want anything to do with you now because she said you were a "prodigal" son, but you "abandoned" them from transitioning. is that right?
Quote from: SpaceyGirl on March 09, 2011, 06:57:09 PM
i think i remember a thread you made a while back. your mom doesn't want anything to do with you now because she said you were a "prodigal" son, but you "abandoned" them from transitioning. is that right?
Yeah both my parents disowned me that way....until I come back to them "the prodigal son"....in other words, as a man.
Not going to happen.
But yeah my mom is constantly saying I walked away from THEM. Drives me nutso
Quote from: Jerica on March 10, 2011, 12:29:47 AM
Yeah both my parents disowned me that way....until I come back to them "the prodigal son"....in other words, as a man.
Not going to happen.
But yeah my mom is constantly saying I walked away from THEM. Drives me nutso
Wow ... way to completely misread that particular parable. And here I thought it was supposed to be encouraging people to be forgiving, not judgmental jerks. ::)
People can belief whatever they want, and I don't think that anyone wants to stop that. What people are asking for is that if this is to be the basis of society, as it has been for over 2,000 years now, we need more than taking the word of some of the people on the 'faith' that they - and they alone - are right with the understanding that none of it can be proven.
Scientific knowledge and understanding have expanded our views both in micro as well as in macro perspectives and in all of that not one shred, not one iota, not a sintillia or a speck of information - not a nano-smudge of anything - ANYTHING (and everything) - has in any way, shape or form proven any of the Christian (or Mormon, or Islamic) cosmology to be true. There simply is after all this investigation still nothing more than faith and faith alone with which to accept these stories.
Doesn't it bother you at some itsy, bitty, tinsy-winesy level that absolutely everything we have learned about the planet, the universe and ourselves in no way, shape or form seems to back any of cosmology or explanations that Christianity (or CJCoLDS, or Islam) professes?
The claim of truth about sin, original sin, redemption, salvation, the fall, the flood, the parting of the Red Sea, heaven and hell, good and evil, as a fundamental basis for society and moral order and as a touchstone for modern decisions in the modern world has to rely on something more firmly rooted in reality and rationality then the basic Christian narrative. For that to continue the Christians need to come up with something more convincing than just their word for it because they read it in a book.
Wait, how can I be talking about faith on a purely scientific subject, isn't it reserved only for religious people? Absolutely not. I have faith that the people who tell me the earth is round are telling me the truth even though I don't have the evidence myself. I have faith because I do not know of myself - I have faith because I do know with complete certainty that they are not lying to me.
You don't have to take it on faith. That's what makes it science and not religion. You can in any number of places actually see the curvature of the earth (airplanes, mountains, coastlines, the Salt Flats). You can extrapolate like Columbus did about the way a ship disappears on the horizon line, or look in the sky and see that 'round' is the basic shape - indeed the only shape - for viable planets. You can do measurements and work the math. You can also just look at the pictures. Here's a bunch of them. I mean it takes the effort to do it, Science is lot of work and thought. But that work is there to be done and you too can arrive at the same results that everyone else did time after time.
http://www.google.com/images?q=nasa+earth+photos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=U9h4TYFEjaKxA9mEyZID&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw (http://www.google.com/images?q=nasa+earth+photos&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=U9h4TYFEjaKxA9mEyZID&ved=0CDAQsAQ&biw)
I try to avoid religious discussions as I find they tend to devolve into something unproductive rather quickly.
Since the original post was about hate, being harmed and how to overcome this I'd like to suggest something non-religious.
Michael Nagler webcast his course on non-violence through UC Berkeley and it is available to download for free (legally):
http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978360 (http://webcast.berkeley.edu/course_details.php?seriesid=1906978360)
He also has a book but the book is mostly covered by the podcasts.
I personally feel that there are a lot of useful things that can be learned from the non-violence movement.
Take what you need and leave the rest.
I'm going to try and refrain from entering a debate as I really don't like religion especially the abrahamic ones. For me I can like a religious person but not their beliefs. A lot of people moan and say you have to respect other peoples beliefs but I think that's crap, should I respect a racists view? a homophobes view? no but does me not liking their views stop me for treating them with respect, no it doesn't.
Anyway I think it's wrong to tar a whole group of people with one brush, sure parts of the bible are pretty vile but that doesn't mean christians are, many christians differ on what parts of the bible they accept and because of this christians are a very wide group of people.
The thing to remember is that there are good and bad people in every group of people, my dad for instance is an atheist yet because of me being trans he wants nothing to do with me and my mum is catholic and 100% accepts me.
This will probably be my last post in this thread.
Quote from: tekla on March 10, 2011, 11:18:35 AM
People can belief whatever they want, and I don't think that anyone wants to stop that. What people are asking for is that if this is to be the basis of society, as it has been for over 2,000 years now, we need more than taking the word of some of the people on the 'faith' that they - and they alone - are right with the understanding that none of it can be proven.
That might be what you're asking for, and that's fine, but that's not what the original poster was asking for, and I think that discussion, while interesting in its own right, does nothing to help her with the issue she is facing now.
Hannah, thanks for the link. That looks interesting. :) And Nathan, thank you for your words, too. You seem to be doing well to balance justice and compassion in how you see others, by treating people as individuals rather than as representatives of some group.
This thread has run it course. Many of our Christian Brothers and Sisters are upset and it is time for this to go away.