Hello, all. I'm 4 months on T and I had a situation happen tonight that I wanted to discuss and see if others have had similar situations.
I saw two friends of mine that I came out to over a year ago. They know I'm on T, they know I'm trans, they know my preferred name and pronouns, etc. We haven't seen each other in a few months so we met up and got ice cream and discussed what wass going on in our lives. The two friends I saw said that I didn't look different and that my voice might've changed a little. The wrong name and pronoun was used a whole bunch of times. It really hurt that after trying so much to present as male, and being on hormones for this amount of time that I'm still misgendered and that people aren't noticing any changes at all.
TL;DR
What do you do when people just keep using the wrong pronouns and wrong name?
For those on T: Did people not notice any changes, even after being on hormones for a significant amount of time?
man. :( That was so insensitive of them. Not much to say since I'm not on T yet, but...
You have to correct them. Even if they don't see the changes, you HAVE to tell them that you're male and you're Kyle. Don't let them get away with it, especially your friends. Don't even have to correct them on the spot, just send off an email, phone, talk to them aside and privately and say "Out of respect for me, please try to use the right name and pronouns when referring to me. This is something I have been working towards for a long time, it is really important to me, and I would really appreciate your continued support."
Or something like that.
Yes, I would agree with Caleb.
I think it's possible that maybe they don't know how it makes us feel. they think it's no big deal. So it's up to us to let them know that it is.
I'm not on hormones. but I do have that problem with people who should know better calling me by my old name.
I've had that happen multiple times. It's like when they know you before and see your face they somehow almost become deaf to your voice changing and will only notice face changes if you have ->-bleeped-<- tons of facial hair otherwise they're like blind to it.
While working at my old job transitioning tons of the older people and even coworkers I thought of as friends still used my birth name (which was literally only on my name tag for 3 weeks out of the 1 1/2 years I worked there) on purpose or even asked what it was so like they could use it (I never told people it but they would find out) or if they called me Jay they still used she/her. It was only when I used the phone with people did they notice my voice change asking who I was and getting shocked when I told them even though I saw them everyday.
I also would run into people I hadn't seen in a while with my voice dropped and a bit of facial hair thinking they would notice and figure it out but no they just don't get it. Some people just don't want to accept it. They are either extremely stupid or just plain not your friends.
Happened to me a lot until I switched to Nebido.
QuoteWhile working at my old job transitioning tons of the older people and even coworkers I thought of as friends still used my birth name (which was literally only on my name tag for 3 weeks out of the 1 1/2 years I worked there) on purpose or even asked what it was so like they could use it (I never told people it but they would find out) or if they called me Jay they still used she/her.
FML...that is not encouraging at all, hahaha. Whatever, you look really dudely so they're idiots.
My mother still sees me as totally F, even with full facial hair. She is shocked when people call me he, and says hey they paid you a compliment, like they noticed I was pretending to be male and went along with it.
This happened recently:
So i go to the doctor with my mother and sister (sister has cancer), it's a gynecologic oncology office. Crowded, but men and women (significant others) are both there.. We wait. A long time. Finally we're down to 2. Of course my sister is last. So my mother starts a convo with the other lady. What brings you here? my mother asks. The lady said she heard good things about the doc but doesn't elaborate, so my mother asks again. The lady mumbles and says she's not comfortable talking about it, because there is a guy in here. My mother says where? and turns around, scanning the waiting room. The lady just stares at her, so i kick her foot (my mother's foot). She gets a shocked look on her face, then starts laughing, like a giddy school girl. I just look at her and ask what the heck did she put in her coffee. And the other lady laughed. Kept my mother rolling for the next 10 minutes.
Um, there's a bearded MAN right here in front of you, but all you see is a woman. FACEPALM.
So, yeah.
Jay
Nygeel - after this much time on T, changes really ought to be noticeable to people who haven't seen you in a while, especially if your T levels are in the normal range.
Considering this and your other issues with not responding to T (e.g. the fact that you're still bleeding) I think it might be time to start investigating possible medical explanations. For instance, androgen insensitivity syndrome can occur in biological females; it's not usually a concern...unless you're trans. Or there might be other conditions that would interfere with your body responding to the hormones. Do you have access to an endocrinologist?
Here are the three questions I see that you're asking:
1) What to do about friends and people who know you who still use old name/pronouns;
2) When friends and people who knew you pre-T will switch more easily to male name/pronouns; and
3) When do you start to see changes from T?
To answer:
1) I correct them. Every single time I hear it. I'm not rude about it. It's natural, matter-of-fact, and even instinct at this point. I've noticed that some of my friends will correct themselves in the middle of a sentence or correct one another, and I don't even have to say anything at all.
If it's in a very large group or at work where I can't, I'll even email and say, "I'm sure it was inadvertence, but you misgendered me..." If people talk to me more about it (or apologize), I'm very understanding about the fact that it is habit and it is hard to adjust. I tell people that and I tell them that it gets easier over time - if you're aware of it, and that I find it helps peopel remember to break the habit if I speak up.
The only time it got more "serious" is when a super close friend thought I was expecting perfection and got more defensive about it, and I pointed out why it was so important (e.g., safety) and that it doesn't come naturally. It comes by trying harder. If I know I'm going somewhere that I think it would be "worse" if I were outed as trans with friends, I even remind them beforehand to be careful about names/pronouns.
Obviously, it depends on your crowd, but I think the normal "mistakes" people make are:
- letting it go for too long so no one thinks it's really a big deal
- setting artifical dates for when people should switch ("when I start T, then...") rather than based on when you are actually transitioning and/or wanting to be referred to as male in public
- putting people on the defensive or getting mad when people get it wrong
- expecting people to go part way and be able to switch back and forth based on where you're out
- hanging out with/staying friends with people who insist that they will never get it right and don't care
You CAN get things back on track again, even if you fall into any of these categories, but I do think it makes it harder.
2) I think Jay answered this best. People who know you pre-transition are not looking to gender you now (they already have), so they will see/refer to you as "You" and not as a guy. Even if they look dumb to everyone else. The closer they are to you, the longer they know you, the longer/harder it can be for them to see you as a guy, independent of how you look.
3) Most changes on T start to become clearer between 3 and 6 months. I wouldn't worry until 6 months. But your clock really only starts from when you have an appropriate dose/correct levels. That's why it is really important for people to get follow-up at 3 and 6 months after starting T.
I think the idea of androgen insensitivity is possible, but it's not always an all or nothing deal, like an enzyme deficiency. Some people have the ability to absorb more T and/or do more with it than others. You may just be one of those who will see slower effects.
I think you should make a list of all the changes you have had in the past 4 months to see if T is having an affect on you. Skin, hair, genital change, mood, voice, sleep patterns, disturbances to menstrual cycle, etc. Are you really not seeing any difference?
Quote from: kyril on March 20, 2011, 07:50:04 AM
Nygeel - after this much time on T, changes really ought to be noticeable to people who haven't seen you in a while, especially if your T levels are in the normal range.
Considering this and your other issues with not responding to T (e.g. the fact that you're still bleeding) I think it might be time to start investigating possible medical explanations. For instance, androgen insensitivity syndrome can occur in biological females; it's not usually a concern...unless you're trans. Or there might be other conditions that would interfere with your body responding to the hormones. Do you have access to an endocrinologist?
I actually think that the bleeding has stopped. Or, at the very least I haven't gotten what would be the 5th one since starting T. The first 2 months I was on a tiny tiny dose so if we throw that out of the window and pretend it didn't happen then it's more like I've been on T for 2 months and one of those months I had a low dose, so we could even consider it that I'm on T for more like a month on "the right dose."
I don't have any extra money right now to spend on an endo, and I don't have insurance. I did make the decision to change doctors and have an appointment set up to go to Callen-Lorde towards the end of April.
Quote from: Sean on March 20, 2011, 08:16:34 AM
I think the idea of androgen insensitivity is possible, but it's not always an all or nothing deal, like an enzyme deficiency. Some people have the ability to absorb more T and/or do more with it than others. You may just be one of those who will see slower effects.
I think you should make a list of all the changes you have had in the past 4 months to see if T is having an affect on you. Skin, hair, genital change, mood, voice, sleep patterns, disturbances to menstrual cycle, etc. Are you really not seeing any difference?
I had my first check up for hormone levels at 2 months. My levels were kinda wonkie then. I didn't ask what my levels are but when I called a different day and asked I was told I needed to come in and sign a release form. The clinic is 2 hours away and a $20 train just to sign a paper. I decided to just skip it. My free T was 10.2 when I took the test 2 days after my shot. I'm not sure what that means.
I've had huge genital change, my voice has changed, menstruation I'm not sure about (yet), I think my hair is coming in on the corners but that might be left over from a hair cut around a month ago. My skin has some bumps and I was able to do the "mascara trick" to see some sideburn area hair. My leg hair used to have patches of hair on my calves. I think it's starting to fill in (but it's still not
that hairy). I have a few new very very thin tummy hairs that won't show up in pictures.
I have been on T for 6 months. Nothing happened untill about 5 months at that time my period stopped, my voice started to drop, and i got a little increase in thigh hair.
However T effects everyone differently. I took T every 2 weeks. At about 3 months at the end of my 2 week cycle by T level was lik e256 but my estrogen level was like 450 er somethin and I had seen absolutly no changes except for longer periods.
My endo well I kinda increased my dosage and the endo was cool with it but again still no changes except even longer periods so I kinda increased it a little bit more and I started seeing changes.
I still have no facial hair but my face seems to more square and the hair on my head is rougher it used to be soft :'( I miss the soft fuzzyness.
QuoteWhile working at my old job transitioning tons of the older people and even coworkers I thought of as friends still used my birth name (which was literally only on my name tag for 3 weeks out of the 1 1/2 years I worked there) on purpose or even asked what it was so like they could use it (I never told people it but they would find out) or if they called me Jay they still used she/her. It was only when I used the phone with people did they notice my voice change asking who I was and getting shocked when I told them even though I saw them everyday.
I also would run into people I hadn't seen in a while with my voice dropped and a bit of facial hair thinking they would notice and figure it out but no they just don't get it. Some people just don't want to accept it. They are either extremely stupid or just plain not your friends.
Can totally relate to what Jay is saying. I know a few people who knew me like a few months before transitioning, but now they act like they had known "my girl self" for decades. Always use birth name and wrong gender pronouns some of the time. We are not the best of friends though, so i don't usually bother with these people.
Now on the question, I guess it depend with your relationship with the people in question, if they are just casual "friends", and they continue to disrespect you even after being corrected loads of times, they may not be the people you want in your life. It also depends on how and why they are doing it, is it intentional and mean spirited or they truly forgot. if they are people you are very tight with and you know they mean well, it may be worth the trouble to keep on reminding them, but tells them how bad it makes you feel.
I'm just two months on t and I think people are starting to see the differences, voice dropping, facial changes, some are now hesitant to use "she" or "her" but not quite using he, for fear of offending me ( people i'm not out to, think i'm just a tomboy or something). I know this girl though, a casual "hi, how are you" friend, who keeps outing me to people by using my birth name and wrong pronouns, and then saying ooops i forgot, then use my male name. Even when I'm out to her as trans, this girl though is on the mean spirited side, she is the kind that likes to gossip, belittle you and humiliate you in front of an audience. I made the mistake of telling her I'm trans, but I had no choice, she would have continued to use my birth name if I didnt (she likes to say people's names in every sentence ::)). Anyway i have slowly been cutting her out of my life, as I do to people like this. It won't matter if i have a 4inch beard, sound like hulk hogan and look like tarzan, i will still be a "girl" to this person, just because of I will always be what she saw first.
Sorry for the long post, i hate hate people use wrong pronouns to "gender variant" people. I may not tell you I'm a guy, but I'm not wasting all my time appearing male to be called "she". Just dont use the pronouns if you are not sure.
Quote from: Marvel on March 21, 2011, 11:34:00 PM
some are now hesitant to use "she" or "her" but not quite using he, for fear of offending me
I had that experience when I went to get food earlier. The woman behind the counter wasn't sure if they had wrung me up so she shoots an awkward look my way then goes "did you ring 'em up?" The other woman asked her to repeat herself so she says "did you ring up her.... *stutter* him... I mean did you already ring them up?" Even though it was just me standing there. I just kinda feel like "just pick a pronoun people"
Nygeel the others nailed it already. If you've continually reminded them and they aren't close and are doing it on purpose might be best to let them out of your life. As for the changes noticing... I didn't notice mine until that video and everyone else doesn't seem to notice except maybe once or twice but I don't know that 3 months counts as significant.
Try not to get too hard on yourself if people you're around every day don't notice. It's like if you set a candle in the center of the table and someone bumps the table each day so the candle moves a little. The first few bumps won't make you notice much but once it's halfway across the table from where it started you'll definitely notice it's moved.
Quote from: sneakersjay on March 20, 2011, 07:21:47 AM
My mother still sees me as totally F, even with full facial hair. She is shocked when people call me he, and says hey they paid you a compliment, like they noticed I was pretending to be male and went along with it.
This happened recently:
So i go to the doctor with my mother and sister (sister has cancer), it's a gynecologic oncology office. Crowded, but men and women (significant others) are both there.. We wait. A long time. Finally we're down to 2. Of course my sister is last. So my mother starts a convo with the other lady. What brings you here? my mother asks. The lady said she heard good things about the doc but doesn't elaborate, so my mother asks again. The lady mumbles and says she's not comfortable talking about it, because there is a guy in here. My mother says where? and turns around, scanning the waiting room. The lady just stares at her, so i kick her foot (my mother's foot). She gets a shocked look on her face, then starts laughing, like a giddy school girl. I just look at her and ask what the heck did she put in her coffee. And the other lady laughed. Kept my mother rolling for the next 10 minutes.
Um, there's a bearded MAN right here in front of you, but all you see is a woman. FACEPALM.
So, yeah.
Jay
:( this kinda saddens me cause I fear my mom will be like your mom. I feel like 5 years from now she will be like "Oh hay did you meet my daughter" and I'll be standing there with a huge mustache or something.
These were former work friends. My situation is that when I came out as trans a lot of my friends turned super ugly (meaning would point it out and be extremely cissexist). I lost a lot of people so I'm kind of willing to keep not so awesome friends because of all this bizznezz. Plus, they get me out of the house which I need to do more often. They don't seem to be doing it on purpose, it's more of a slip. They don't understand everything but it's a start. These people last saw me around 4 months ago and didn't notice changes.
I also kind of wish I were in the position were people just didn't use pronouns, or tried to figure out what pronoun to use. Right now it's all female all the time.
Oh I looked up androgen insensitivity stuff and it turns out that if I have it then both my mother and father would have it, which is hard to do.
I'm also listening to my voice (via headphones) to see what's changed. My voice is a bit lower than 1 week on T but I don't have that gravely, grumble quality. To me it sounds like a low female voice (and I guess it's the same with others since I'm not pegged for female over the phone).
DO NOT COPY THESE LINKS WHEN QUOTING. I WILL REMOVE LINKS WITHIN A WEEK!
One Week:
15 weeks:
I have a newer one but I'm groggy so it sounds different.
The changes are happening, they're just happening slower than you'd like i'm guessing.
My only advice would be to try to not pay so much attention to it. It seems like most of your posts are about waiting to see changes and wondering why they haven't happened yet. I know it's a lot easier said than done but a watched pot doesn't boil. Taking voice recordings and pictures every week will only drive you crazy in the beginning. It's good to document change but obsessing over it will slowly drive you crazy.
Obviously I hope you aren't offended by this, not trying to make you angry. Hopefully just make a useful suggestion.
Logan1986, I used to think of transition as a car ride. I used to be really positive and think "I should enjoy the road trip and the destination will be great." Now I'm in that frustrated space that a 10 year old might have "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" I've been comparing myself against others who are at the same point in their transition. I'm just not yet at the point I want to be at considering my timeline. Like being stuck in traffic (hope all these driving metaphors aren't too weird). It's bothering me a lot, and I hate that it's easier to say I'll ignore it than to actually ignore it. I notice with the pictures that my face has changed, and I've noticed my voice changing, too. I just wish everybody else could see it.
I just thought I should be able to socialize as male and be treated as if I were male (even a young male like a teenage boy) by now but I'm not.
I understand that and I hope I didn't make you mad with what I said. I remember reading that you were on a low dose at first, and then it was messed up so the first few months didn't really count. Maybe you can use the 'one to two month guidelines' instead and find it to be better?
Quote from: Nygeel on March 22, 2011, 06:59:34 PM
Logan1986, I used to think of transition as a car ride. I used to be really positive and think "I should enjoy the road trip and the destination will be great." Now I'm in that frustrated space that a 10 year old might have "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?"
I kept telling myself the same thing--enjoy the journey because it's going to take a long time to "get there." Get where? Well...you know, full voice, body fat completely shifted (that can take years), full body hair, full facial hair, full comfort with myself. After two years, I have the voice--it shifts a tad every now and then--and I'm not sure all of the fat has redistributed. I'm waiting for hair on my chest and decent hair on my face (cursed blondness). Comfort with myself? Could take years.
It's only been a few months for you, Nygeel. Some guys take a year or more to really settle in, and the people who are watching you change day by day can be awfully obtuse (as Jay's mother indicates). Give it at least six months before you start to worry again. (I know, hard to do, but you have to give yourself time.)
BTW, Jay, something tells me that your mother's name is Cleo. :laugh:
@Logan1986 that might be a better idea to compare against people at around 2 months instead of 4(the low dose wasn't my doctor's fault, it's the fault of social workers at the clinic). For some reason I sorta woke up on the right side of the bed today and just felt better about myself and noticed some differences that I didn't before. It also didn't hurt to wear an outfit that made me look and feel really good. I used to have huge hairless patches on my calves, now they're starting to fill in. My arms are becoming a little leaner as are my legs. Also have a lot of muscle soreness. I'm guessing my levels are where they're supposed to be (I think the bleeding stopped).
@Arch Oh gosh, that's not even the "there" I was thinking of! I was simply thinking of "there" as being comfortable with my body and being seen as male from random Joe Schmos. Full voice not needed, body fat shift not completely needed, full body hair very much not needed (I'm not looking forward to being a wookie but will deal with it if/when that happens), some facial hair would be cool...my idea of "there" is a lot less than yours. My "there" is just being able to do a few simple things. There aren't too many people watching me change day by day. The people that see me daily haven't noticed any change, nor have people that saw me pre-T and recently.