Being a hispanic person, I take to this idea of Machismo. In no way am I claiming that anyone else need view this in the same light. I am saying this right now, this is my idea of masculinity.
I believe that I should be the better person in many ways. I should be the provider, I should be tough skinned, I should not cry before others, I should always do my best to take care of women. With the last one, I'm sad to say that I am essentially a sexist. You want to know how, then ask, but I'm not volunteering more than that.
I find it an unattractive and humiliating thing for a man to cry before another person, with only slight exception to an SO. The SO has to be of long-term and serious status. Even then, I do not cry before my SO unless it overcomes me. I hate it. I have a goal in life to be the man of the house, to be able to provide my family with enough and some more. I understand I can't give them the world, but I'll try. I want a wife who'll be a housewife, and fortunately that's the goal of my SO before her meeting me. I lucked out with that.
I also feel that I need to appear to be the best. I don't so the best at that with my shy nature, but it does allow me to put on a front. My front is just a stern/angry look. Being hispanic with cholos and gangsters here and there (I don't live in LA, so there aren't too many here) I need to look like a tough guy. I need to be taken in with a grain of salt.
Just like any male animal in nature, I need to be one worthwhile, one worth imitating. I need to be the goat with bigger horns or the peacock with flashier feathers. I am in no way a show off, but I'll do the typical act of "one-up"ing whoever tries to "one-up" me. I'll also jump on the wagon of not being a ->-bleeped-<-.
I vary with my situation because not everyone can take things so lightly, but in the end I have principles that say I'm a man and I'm not weak.
I guess I'm really just wondering how everyone thinks of this and how they perceive their own masculinity.
My gut reaction is "ick." Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.
In my opinion, defining masculinity as the absence of femininity is cowardly, and that is what comes to mind when you say you won't cry in front of others. Granted, there are plenty of situations in which I wouldn't cry simply because other guys would give me sh*t, so I can understand faking stoicism in the name of safety. Personally, and fortunately, I live in a liberal area and have artist friends. To me, crying is participating fully in life, and that isn't gendered. Also, as an example, my ex bf is ex special forces. He fought with elite soldiers, and was rewarded for his bravery. He also is straight, which is why we broke up, but he has no problem with being seen as gay, and he loves to cry when he feels pain. None of our friends think he is less of a man, and on the rare occasion someone tries to mess with him, he could and has, but doesn't want to, beat their *ss. The point is, you can be very feminine and masculine at the same time. It's not an either/ or thing.
To me being a man means keeping my word, staying true to my values regardless of the consequences, and protecting women, children, the elderly, and anyone else who needs to be protected.
But those are just my thoughts, and seconded:
Quote from: crazyandro on April 28, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
My gut reaction is "ick." Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.
It's always interesting hearing people's different perspectives on what exactly masculine means. I grew up with basically a completely opposite point of view. With my family and friends, it is usually the women who are more assertive and dominant. Many of them are better educated and earn more than their spouses/SOs, and generally nobody cares. I would love to be in the position of being able to care for someone I love, but the thought of having a housewife just seems...beyond odd. That may just be because I don't know any women who are or have expressed a desire to be one.
I take to this idea of Machismo. ... this is my idea of masculinity.
Why haven't I filled them out? Why do I keep putting them off? Why? I talked to my therapist ... My therapist and my SO both say to just go for it.
I can't think of anything less macho than ... I asked my therapist, I asked my GF, I still can't make a decision... Like anyone who is really macho would care in the least, or even ask around about something they knew was right for them.
I need to look like a tough guy.
Real 'tough guys' don't look tough, they are tough, it oozes from them - form follows function. Chuck Norris would look tough in Kate Middleton's wedding dress.
I need to be one worthwhile, one worth imitating. I need to be the goat with bigger horns or the peacock with flashier feathers. I am in no way a show off, but I'll do the typical act of "one-up"ing whoever tries to "one-up" me. I'll also jump on the wagon of not being a ->-bleeped-<-.
Dude, you work at Disneyland. I don't see how any of that follows being a 'character' in a theme park. A less macho place on earth I can't possibly imagine outside of a Paris runway during Fashion Week.
I really always thought that the entire macho deal was a cultural reaction of Latin men to being surrounded by Latinas, pretty much the fiercest women on earth. They had to put up that entire 'man up' deal to keep from being ground into the dirt by the point of a stiletto heel. For all the macho stuff, Latin culture is decidedly matriarchal. You can take almost any Jewish Princess joke (the Jewish culture being THE most matriarchal culture ever) and substitute Latina and they still work. What's a Latina do with her ->-bleeped-<- every morning? Send's him off to work. Perfect fit.
white girl: If I catch you cheating on me we are so over.
Latina: If I catch you cheating I'm going to cut your balls off.
And, oh yeah, the white girl is kidding, she'll sob, she'll cry, she'll stay. The Latina is not kidding in the least, you better run if she catches you.
Wolf Man, I kinda fall in the same boat. I am not Hispanic, but European and I try to be a gentleman in all things. I don't believe in crying in front of others and I want to be the provider for my family just like you. I am eerie quiet unless I know people which gives its own toughness. I don't care so much about the tough look though. I suppose when I am riding my Harley, I can fit the bill since I prefer the more old school look, but otherwise I just prefer the confident well dressed look. My job does not require dressing up so I normally wear jeans and a designer polo with high end cologne with no synthetics. Which is a great conversation starter with ladies because most men don't spend a lot of money on cologne so I smell different. I think the way I do things speaks volumes for who I am, the pride I have in myself and I have a ton of respect, plus nobody messes with me.
Honestly, I see machismo and shows of stereotypical masculinity as just that; a stereotype that has little to do with what I think matters when it comes to being a man. Crying, to me, is not a sign of weakness nearly so much as other things like lying, bigotry, sexism, bullying, and otherwise not standing up for those who need it or trying to be controlling in all situations when it isn't warranted. Personally, I think men that try to control women or are threatened by a woman working or earning more than them are usually insecure and compensating. 'Traditional values' are harmful to men and women, on principle they create inequality and resentment. The human condition is to be scared, but I've always viewed the true cowards as those who spend so much time posturing and trying to convince others (and themselves) that they are not, and criticizing those who don't meet certain arbitrary standards for masculinity. That's not being a man, that's being a fake.
I don't care about being perceived as tough, I know I can handle myself if the situation calls for it and all peaceful mediation fails. I also don't care about being thought of/seen as 'a ->-bleeped-<-', again, that's an archaic notion that gay men by default aren't masculine. I'm a strong person, in many ways, but I don't care if that's not obvious to those who don't know me well; to most, I'm a well meaning goof who's always cracking jokes. I've got a fairly dominant personality, but above all I believe in fairness. I love strong women, and I love working along side them and under them. I know when I'm beaten in leadership ability and experience, and I'd never try to one-up or overtake anyone who's earned their position over me.
Masculinity is very much YMMV of course, but I grew up with a father who had some very traditional notions of masculinity, so I abhor them. He was an abusive alcoholic, and was entirely dependent on my mother for guidance and emotional security. When she was young she wanted to be a housewife, but once her kids were in school it wasn't enough and she needed to do something for her; to have her own life and career, (as women should be encouraged to believe they deserve and are entitled to). My dad, however, couldn't handle that, became increasingly emotionally abusive to her, all while being the sole bread winner and resenting the hell out of everyone for it.
My dad is still homophobic, racist, slightly sexist, and angry at the world. Because I was living as a heterosexual female with a boyfriend for 6 years, I will forever be just 'a ->-bleeped-<-' to him, but I'm positive that as I am now I am already more of a man than he'll ever be. I take responsibility for my actions, and I blame no one else for my failings. So, no, my masculinity doesn't involve subjugating women to make me feel better about myself or the lack of control in my life( I'm speaking about my experiences with men like this, not you Wolf Man). :) I do not feel that women need to be 'taken care of', many young women today are a lot more educated and independent than young men, which I find remarkable when the media does everything it can to convince women their worth is mostly or solely based on their appearance. I'm still a feminist, as much as a guy can be, anyways. I suppose I could be viewed as weak or unmanly for that, luckily it wouldn't bother me, manhood is what you make of it. *shrugs*
Quote from: Bahzi on April 28, 2011, 08:48:45 PM
that's an archaic notion that gay men by default aren't masculine
You reminded me of this. It's slightly off topic, but I thought I'd share anyways.
Steve Hughes: the "straightness" of gay men, and the "gayness" of straight men (CC) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9SiDtJLaU#)
Most of the gay men I know, those in my age range, are damn good in a fight, they had to be. No running to the teacher and crying about being bullied - they had to learn to defend themselves, and did.
And it seems that physically you might be living in 2011 California, but mentally that's pretty much 1800 Mississippi.
@ Lee: thanks for that link! i almost fell down laughing at that :D
I second everything he said. But here's what stands out to me.
Quote from: Bahzi on April 28, 2011, 08:48:45 PM
Crying, to me, is not a sign of weakness nearly so much as other things like lying, bigotry, sexism, bullying, and otherwise not standing up for those who need it or trying to be controlling in all situations when it isn't warranted.
My dad is still homophobic, racist, slightly sexist, and angry at the world. Because I was living as a heterosexual female with a boyfriend for 6 years, I will forever be just 'a ->-bleeped-<-' to him, but I'm positive that as I am now I am already more of a man than he'll ever be. I take responsibility for my actions, and I blame no one else for my failings.
This is a perfect example of who I want to be as a person. I have always felt that there could be no greater pride than to know you have earned the respect of others by being a man (or for women, too) of principal, being honest, being truthful and honorable. Those are values that matter to me. And his words there are also inspirational to me, because it reminds me, for all of the people that make fun of me for not being feminine like I'm "supposed to be" (I'm not 100% out to the world as trans), but I am a better person than they are because I am truthful, I don't bully or belittle others, I'm not bigoted or prejudiced. Those things mean so much more. So much more. Character is what I strive for more than anything. And to me, that means I need to control my anger better as well, and not resort to being a brute. Just because I can fight equal to a biological man doesn't mean I should. I want to be a better than that.
I don't know what masculinity is, I guess it's a lot of wrestling instead of hugging and also punching. It's also playing 'gay chicken', and making near-constant jokes about being gay yourself. This is the masculinity I've observed from peers my age. The girls can climb on each other, playing with each other's hair, commenting each other's bodies, etc, but the guys can't.
In my new class, however, the guys aren't like that. One of them loves Twilight, action films (his favourite is Inglorious Basterds), and romantic comedies. We all watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. When a new girl in class, dressed in Gothic Lolita fashion and looking like a little princess, challenged us in arm wrestling, she beat us all. There are little to no sex jokes, and absolutely no gay jokes. Nobody touches others before asking first. My dream job would be programming, and this summer I'll work in a Salvation Army store. I fit in a lot more in my new class, but I still get along well with guys in general.
I'm not sure if I'm masculine, feminine or neither.
respect of others by being a man (or for women, too) of principal, being honest, being truthful and honorable.
Yeah, that's a given, lacking that stuff you will not even get to earn the respect, which mostly consists of "show up, shut up, do the work." Work, how good you are at it, in combination with how much you make (successful business types), how much prestige there is attached to it (doctor, lawyer, full college professor), or how cool/manly it is (construction, firemen, rock concerts, working at River Rouge) is pretty much how guys judge other guys. The next thing most guys ask after your name is "what do you do."
If you are a thief, or a liar your gone before you even get going. No one in real life, not men or women, put up with that kind of crap for more than a New York Second. Male or female, if you are not true to your word, you're useless in reality.
Beyond that you should have a huge sense of humor, thick skin, be able to get as well as you give, not take anything other than work and family too seriously, tolerate differences, don't pick on those weaker than you, don't back down to people stronger than you, protect if needed. If you can't handle your liquor or drugs don't do them, no one will think less of you for that - but pass out and all bets are off, sharpies are your friend.
I'm proud of my masculinity. I am a man – of course I want to be seen as strong, brave and tough because to me that's manly. I pride myself on stoicism in certain situations but I don't have a problem showing a sensitive side either. I don't pound my chest or put others down or think less of anyone else to be seen in that way. I have had girl friends tell me it's my energy that makes them feel safe walking down the street with me or sitting in a bar, and the fact I look like a bouncer!
But it's not because I talk it up or treat them as second class citizens or delicate flowers – the chicks around me would kick my ass black and blue if I acted like that! Though they do appreciate the protective quality in my personality – I'll defend those who can't defend themselves be them female, child, animal or another man til I can no more.
In Webster's masculinity is defined obviously as qualities and appearances generally associated with men. Macho is defined as a man who is aggressively proud of his masculinity. A chauvinist is a person with a prejudiced belief in the superiority of his or her own kind. And a sexist is generally a male chauvinist with a chauvinistic belief in the inferiority of women.
There is nothing wrong with feeling like a proud man; I too am a proud man. It's when you do it at the expense of others that you're no longer just being masculine but bigoted. I am all for each to their own but it's a little two-faced to think of women in this way having been born as one of them!
Now I never felt like a girl or a woman for those of you screaming this having just read my last sentence. I like many of you always knew I was supposed to have been born male, but I did live my first 25 odd years on this planet as one of them, even treated as a woman from time to time. If it were me I would feel hypocritical to in turn treat a woman as inferior or even to have that mentality.
QuoteMy gut reaction is "ick." Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.
^ This.
It does explain though why smart, talented, and motivated Latinas tend not to marry Latins in ever increasing numbers.
I'm not interested in trying to live up to someone's idea of what a man is supposed to be. And I don't have any interest in asking other people to live up to my idea of what a man (or a woman) is supposed to be. Frankly, I'm not sure I even have any such ideas.
Other people would generally describe me as masculine. In the gay community, I'm (legitimately) "straight-acting." But I'm not acting - this is just me. Quietly dominant, competitive, respectful, emotionally reserved, drawn to physical work and rough play, a "fixer" rather than a "talker." But that stuff doesn't make me a man; a woman could have all those qualities. And my dad's ten times the man I'll ever be and straight to boot, and he's gentle, cooperative, non-competitive, physically unassuming and emotionally open. If I could be more like him - more 'feminine' in a lot of ways - I'd be a better man for it. Because in the end, being a good man is just being a good human being.
Sorry, too busy being a gentleman to think about being macho (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.wg.uproxx.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2Fbillionaire-dog.jpg&hash=022ab4ed5cee8fa86a6ced35c5ac7d11d93e54ff)
Malinkibear I have no idea where you get these images but I love them!!!
Sorry, I had to say it.... back on topic.
I've got to be, a macho man. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08#noexternalembed)
Quote from: malinkibear on April 29, 2011, 11:48:23 AM
Sorry, too busy being a gentleman to think about being macho (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.wg.uproxx.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2Fbillionaire-dog.jpg&hash=022ab4ed5cee8fa86a6ced35c5ac7d11d93e54ff)
Is that a dog?
Quote from: Sharky on April 30, 2011, 12:58:39 AM
I've got to be, a macho man. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08#noexternalembed)
Is that a dog?
I've actually no idea ???
Quote from: malinkibear on April 30, 2011, 01:40:18 AM
I've actually no idea ???
I was trying to figure it out. It looks really small compared to the floor boards. I though it might be a dwarf hamster, but it has a back nose. I don't think hamsters can have black noses.
Whatever it is it's amazing hahah.
I don't think I could have a wife who stayed at home... I think in this day and age you have to make a loootttt of money to be one man who takes care of a wife and kids with a house and car. Even then I wouldn't want to do that, probably because when I was growing up as a women if a man wanted that from me I would be extremely offended and the idea of that still angers me. I would never expect that from any girl.
I can be a bit of a feminist in mind, but I don't like to show it... right? 'Cause women can stand up for themselves, they don't need a man to do it for them...
The extent of my masculinity socially is that I like anything marketed for men, like clothes, body wash, etc. etc. basically if anything is gendered I have the "for men" brand. I want to be muscular so I work out and exercise everyday. I like programming, web developing, video games and beer... but again this is just in terms of masculinity that is socially constructed. Other than that... I'm not Mr. tough guy, I don't try to one-up anyone, that's annoying, I don't talk about 'how many girls I've banged' to my friends, don't like sports and all that crap.
Quote from: crazyandro on April 28, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
My gut reaction is "ick." Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.
I feel the same.
I'm not even sure what makes something masculine but from what people tend to think masculine is I guess i'm pretty masculine, I dress masculine, listen to metal, when I can i'll grow facial hair etc but I wont hide my femininty, i'm comfortable with my gender and gender expression. I don't feel the need to be super macho.
Also it's horribly sexist to think that crying or not being tough is bad because that's a woman thing.
Quote from: Nathan. on April 30, 2011, 08:23:04 AM
Also it's horribly sexist that to think that crying or not being tough is bad because that's a woman thing.
I agree.
I have sat back and read replies but now I have to pipe up, because I am personally starting to take offense.
For any of you that think not crying in front of others is a sexist thing, or makes you less of a person... you are very wrong.
There are a multitude of factors that can influence a person's not wanting to cry in front of others. Some of the factors are age, culture, upbringing, religion and personal past among others. The beauty of the human race is the fact we are not clones and have individual thought.
I did not cry at my father's funeral and he was and still is my idol in life, does that make me sexist or less of a person... NO, and I dare anybody to tell me different. None of you know my past or anything about me, yet people make general comments. I encourage everybody to consider what may be said, the context and remember we are all different with a different story.
Quote from: Jigsaw on April 30, 2011, 01:30:39 PM
I have sat back and read replies but now I have to pipe up, because I am personally starting to take offense.
For any of you that think not crying in front of others is a sexist thing, or makes you less of a person... you are very wrong.
There are a multitude of factors that can influence a person's not wanting to cry in front of others. Some of the factors are age, culture, upbringing, religion and personal past among others. The beauty of the human race is the fact we are not clones and have individual thought.
I did not cry at my father's funeral and he was and still is my idol in life, does that make me sexist or less of a person... NO, and I dare anybody to tell me different. None of you know my past or anything about me, yet people make general comments. I encourage everybody to consider what may be said, the context and remember we are all different with a different story.
There's nothing bad about not crying in front of others. I was always horribly embarrassed about breaking down in tears, and one of my favourite effects of T is that I don't cry anymore.
It is, however, sexist (and destructive, and hurtful to other men) to believe that crying in front of others is objectively a bad thing, that it shows weakness, that it's only acceptable for women because they're supposed to be weak, that a man who cries is somehow less of a man. It takes a lot of strength to be comfortable showing emotion publicly - a different kind of strength, a kind I don't have. My dad does, and like I said, he's more of a man than I'll ever be.
Quote from: Jigsaw on April 30, 2011, 01:30:39 PM
I have sat back and read replies but now I have to pipe up, because I am personally starting to take offense.
For any of you that think not crying in front of others is a sexist thing, or makes you less of a person... you are very wrong.
Except that no one said that, at all... O_o They said that the idea that crying in front of others automatically makes one weak or woman-like was sexist and not true, which is what the OP was asserting. No one said the opposite, I think you were misreading or jumping to conclusions.
Masculinity to me is displaying the traditional male attitude, or living the stereotype. I like to look masculine, but my mindset is the completely opposite. To each is their own. I certainly am on different wavelengths as you. Kudos to your pride. Be very aware the very idea of machismo is probably changing as we speak. I understand different cultures have less change and hold to the tradition (or even stereotype, lol) but in general I think the terms of masculinity vs. femininity-- they are not what they were even 10 years ago. "Live like you wanna live baby!"
ah the great irony of being an open minded community...everyone can see masculinity how they choose, but here's all the reasons why your view is wrong.
I don't think it's a terrible thing for you to have this view of masculinity. It's obviously a big part of your culture and upbringing and if there are certain things you'd like to continue then good for you. You clearly stated it was your own view and no one else has to agree so if it works for you go with it.
I think I've been raised with similar values. I was raised by two incredibly tough women who I wouldn't want to mess with in a fight but simple things like opening jars for them or holding doors just feel masculine. Always being the one to build everything in the garden or the toys at Christmas, doing any heavy lifting, fixing anything to do with the car.
As long as you aren't forcing anyone else to believe the same things you believe then you be the best man you know how to be whether that's Oscar Wilde or Clint Eastwood.
I knew I'd receive such offense to the things I said, but I want to thank Logan and Joey for understanding that it's my own stance and I in no way wish it upon others.
I'd like to thank Tekla for his brutal honesty. I respect anyone who sticks to their views despite anything.
I'd like to let the "feminists" know that I am in no way pushing my views upon others and believe that feminism is pushing women a little too far. They have said they are feminists and for the choice of women, yet I've seen many do as you do. They are furious that a women would want to do anything that isn't independent of men such as being a housewife or even doing pornography. I still believe women have this choice, even in terms of birth. I never have or will suggest a woman to be a housewife for me, it's simply something I strive for and I have an SO who strives for it as well.
I enjoy hearing everyone's idea of masculinity. It really does let me in on what's going on around me. I follow a stereotype because it's the only thing I really know to be masculine. My SO does not appreciate it, yet I can't break from it. Tekla is right in that there a so many things wrong with this ideology and my way of living currently. I see that and it really is a big cause of this mess of feelings I have, but I still follow it. I will follow this idea of masculinity until I become a strong enough man to be like kyril's dad.
And to Aussie Jay: I see my wrong in certain feelings because I was female myself, but I still stick to these feelings. I feel like having been subject to a female body/life I can find justice in some things I think, but I even find truth in it that trumps what I think. Despite what shows me to not think in these ways, I do. And until I can see the man in myself, then I will do what I can to be seen as a man to this society.
Feel free to comment more on your types of masculinity or on anyone elses or my OP or this. Yeah. Thank you all for contributing.
Quote from: Wolf Man on May 01, 2011, 12:08:00 PM
I'd like to let the "feminists" know that I am in no way pushing my views upon others and believe that feminism is pushing women a little too far. They have said they are feminists and for the choice of women, yet I've seen many do as you do. They are furious that a women would want to do anything that isn't independent of men such as being a housewife or even doing pornography.
:o
Please talk to more feminists or something, all the feminists I know have no problem with women being hosewives or being in porn, it's all about choice. It's actually anti feminist to shame other women for their choices.
Quote from: Nathan. on May 01, 2011, 12:17:54 PM
:o
Please talk to more feminists or something, all the feminists I know have no problem with women being hosewives or being in porn, it's all about choice. It's actually anti feminist to shame other women for their choices.
ditto; please talk to other feminists. I'd try to elaborate, but there are others who can do that much better.
wow, things have turned awkward here. calling a bunch of transguys who disagree with macho feminists when they didn't say they were actually made me giggle. unfortunately up to this date a lot of feminists will argue that being a transguy one could not at the same time be a feminist. i'm glad it still works for pointing fingers though.
to Wolf Man: i hope you're not going to take this the wrong way...but you mentioned that your significant other doesn't like your macho attitude and later on you even identified it as a pattern you adapted in order to mask insecurities.
you may be trying to distance yourself from "the former you" by mimicking what the men you grow up among did to display masculinity. but not everything about our past selves is "bad"...one of the "advantages" of being a transguy, so to speak, is that we don't need to treat women like aliens - because they're not. most of us are used to women around us, due to how we were socialized (forced or not). that way, we actually have a broader scope of socialization than most people. that's a good thing, there's no need to reject it, because it broadens your horizon, imho.
I am not a feminist. I may have feminist mind-set tendencies? but that is because I grew up being a tomboy woman and it was frustrating to deal with sexism while living as a woman. So now that I am a transgender female-to-male why I would become the man I hated dealing with as a woman because "I can" now?
I am not against your ways, I just personally don't understand it and think some of it is sexist based on my life experiences but it's interesting to read regardless.
Quote from: Wolf Man on May 01, 2011, 12:08:00 PMAnd to Aussie Jay: I see my wrong in certain feelings because I was female myself, but I still stick to these feelings. I feel like having been subject to a female body/life I can find justice in some things I think, but I even find truth in it that trumps what I think. Despite what shows me to not think in these ways, I do. And until I can see the man in myself, then I will do what I can to be seen as a man to this society.
I've been waiting to see what you wrote next mate! I have no problem with opinion obviously I have my own too. I do apologise if you thought I didn't support the fact you're entitled to yours..
I'm attempting to understand what you're trying to say above - are you saying that because of your female body you justify feeling that women are inferior? Because you know they're weaknesses and the effects of emotion etc?? I don't mean offence if I've misunderstood.
It really sounds reading "despite what shows me to not think in these ways, I do. And until I can see the man in myself, then I will do what I can to be seen as a man to this society" that you don't want to see things the way you do.
It sounds like you don't enjoy the views you do but feel them necessary to be seen as a man. The most important person's opinion is yours mate! It's what you think, how you feel about your manhood and masculinity - about being true to yourself.
I guess I took the opposite view having been born female, a similar sort of stance to JayUnit I guess. I look at it like well I was a strong "woman". I was a butch, manly, masculine "woman". And I hated, really hated when guys would treat me as less than equal.
I can appreciate the physical differences between the sexes but at least give me the opportunity – don't treat me as inferior. And now on the other side of the coin, where I always should have been, I know how it made me feel to be treated like that and I can't imagine treating a woman as less than equal!
If what written in the OP are your real beliefs stick to them mate no matter what people think. As someone stated before so long as you don't expect everyone to share your opinion...
Thanks Aussie Jay. You got it right for the most part. I feel that I understand the inferiority of women having lived as one and having a body that functions as such.
I can see what you and JayUnit mean by having been there and not wanting to subjugate. Also I don't think I've ever been like either of you in terms of being proud in the masculinity I had as a female. I also shoved it off as me just being a man underneath it all and I was subject to personal discomfort when people knew I was female and expected something different from what I was.
I'd also like to go back on what you said of me not really wanting to feel this way. I would like for me to become confident in my masculinity so that I can have emotions and not be ashamed, but not crying exactly.
Wolf man one day you'll be old what you going to do then become a vampire?
More to the point this talk of subjugation, the world is full of weak men and women and it is the weak who have the need to subjugate. Because we each can only subjugate ourselves. I know this takes cognitive ability to understand.
Quote from: Wolf Man on May 02, 2011, 10:48:33 AMAlso I don't think I've ever been like either of you in terms of being proud in the masculinity I had as a female. I also shoved it off as me just being a man underneath it all and I was subject to personal discomfort when people knew I was female and expected something different from what I was.
I'd also like to go back on what you said of me not really wanting to feel this way. I would like for me to become confident in my masculinity so that I can have emotions and not be ashamed, but not crying exactly.
I always knew I was supposed to have been born male and it used to make me insanely angry when guys thought I should be more girly because it just wasn't me! But it wasn't the card I was dealt so did the best I could as I thought living as 'female' was the only choice I had for so long. I never felt right living as a 'woman' but the masculine parts of my personality was the only thing that got me through – the fact that I wasn't really a girl! It is kind of what helped me decide to take hormones – I really enjoyed the masculine parts of my personality and body, and what better way to enhance them than with T!
May I ask are you on T or started therapy? Like (assuming you are) is your transition in motion - something to look forward to I mean. I felt helpless before I started to actually do something about the feelings I had. Like I tried extra hard to pass and my actions were probably a little more macho that I actually was – is that kind of what you feel like (but maybe a little stronger)? Or do you actually believe that inferiority exists in women, apart from an actual physical difference between some men and some women and that they actually are subordinate??
Quote from: crazyandro on April 28, 2011, 07:59:09 PM
My gut reaction is "ick." Sorry.
But you have the right to live however you want.
I have to agree. Though I would rethink my friendship towards a person who expressed such rampant sexism.
Aussie Jay, I haven't started T yet, but I am going to therapy. I actually talked to her today about this post and we're getting somewhere with it. I did mention that I feel that I carry some beliefs with me because I need them to feel secure in myself, as for others they are simply my own. I came to identify which ones today in therapy and it really pointed out to me which ones I have because I believe I need them to pass. I like to think that once I start T, I'll truly be on my way to becoming more confident in myself and putting some of these "beliefs" to rest because I won't need them for security. I hope to one day become so confident in myself that I'm like kyril's dad or any such man.
Lexia, I will admit that I see myself as no more than a sorry, weak, scum excuse for a man. I don't express that though.
Quote from: Wolf Man on May 03, 2011, 06:27:28 PM
I will admit that I see myself as no more than a sorry, weak, scum excuse for a man. I don't express that though.
I'm seriously curious and trying to understand, I hope I don't come across as being belligerent..
But mate, how can you say you feel secure or manly when you think the above sentence? Buddha - "The mind is everything. What you think you become." And someone else said you are who you pretend to be, so you better pretend to be someone you can live with.. I can't see how you can be a proud man and think that of yourself.
But kudos for talking about it with a therapist - that can only help IMO dude..
Wolf man listen to these guys they are wise indeed.
While your idea of masculinity isn't the way that I'd ever want to live, I respect and understand your feelings on the issue.
That being said, I actually rebel against the masculine stereotypes of my own culture, that being American. In America, Men are viewed as the king of their castle, with a beautiful trophy wife at their side. Guys are burly and tough, and protect their woman, they don't cry and generally don't have feelings, they're all muscle-headed jocks, and are there to take care of broken appliances, jars that the woman can't unscrew, and cars. They all stuff their faces full of chips and buffalo wings while they scream at football games with Uncle Charlie. Guys aren't allowed to be sensitive, or artistic, or emotional.
I can't stand being this way though.
I'm flamboyant, especially for a straight guy, and a lot of men look down on me for that, they tell me that I'm not real and that I'm just a lesbian who doesn't like being treated like a girl. In a way, I kind of wish that I could blend in, but I know that it's not me, and I don't want to pretend, so I've adjusted to being that weird overly artistic guy who splashes paint on his clothes, wears tight vinyl pants, sports something between a fauxhawk and an A-line, and makes jewelry out of his home. Yeah.
I guess, I disregard masculinity since it doesn't fit me.
Quote from: Wolf Man on May 03, 2011, 06:27:28 PM
Aussie Jay, I haven't started T yet, but I am going to therapy. I actually talked to her today about this post and we're getting somewhere with it. I did mention that I feel that I carry some beliefs with me because I need them to feel secure in myself, as for others they are simply my own. I came to identify which ones today in therapy and it really pointed out to me which ones I have because I believe I need them to pass. I like to think that once I start T, I'll truly be on my way to becoming more confident in myself and putting some of these "beliefs" to rest because I won't need them for security. I hope to one day become so confident in myself that I'm like kyril's dad or any such man.
Lexia, I will admit that I see myself as no more than a sorry, weak, scum excuse for a man. I don't express that though.
I think this post of yours best highlights my thoughts on machismo. This sort of hyper-masculinity for the sole sake of being seen as "strong" and "manly" is something I see as the result of personal insecurity. Because a person feels insecure, but doesn't want to be seen as insecure, they try to overcompensate. This is fairly common among abusive spouses/parents, and particularly fathers/husbands, and unfortunately it becomes a vicious cycle if one party doesn't decide to nip it in the bud before it gets out of control. Men are brought up to think that they need to act a certain way in order to be "manly" and "powerful," yet the reality is that everyone has their weaknesses and insecurities, no matter what your gender is. But because many men are encouraged to hide their weakness and insecurity, they may becoming overly aggressive or violent when they feel they are being challenged or when they want to exert their "power" and largely because they feel trapped within those insecurities/weaknesses and aren't able to express that for fear of being seen as "feminine" or "weak."
I realised a few years ago that my biggest weakness as a teenager was the facade of strength and control that I created around myself, and that was the reason for many of the problems I brought on myself. It was only when I came to terms with my weaknesses instead of hiding them so obsessively that I finally calmed down and was able to be myself a little more instead of being so concerned about what others thought. I think many of us have to deal with this at one point in life. But ask yourself why you want to be stone-faced, externally "tough" and "take care of women." Are you "taking care" of them for
them or for your own peace of mind? My guess is the latter.
I think that's the main issue both in the whole "white knight" thing many guys try to pull off as well as the typical "macho" guy. Both equally as destructive, imo. In the end the facade is more about you and your insecurities than anyone else or your supposed responsibilities towards them.
It's great you're talking to your therapist about this. It shows that you've at least been able to identify this in yourself and are willing to step back and take a look at yourself and who you thought you were or needed to be. Introspection is important. Good luck!