Susan's Place Transgender Resources

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden)

Well, how do you feel about it?

Perfectly honest?  Sad.  Sure, he was a terrible person who did terrible things, but death is still death and killing is still killing.  The whole enterprise makes me sad.

I only celebrate the deaths of others when death releases them from physical torment and they go in peace.  All other death is mourned.  May not be a popular sentiment in this case, but it's still what I believe.  I'm sad that a human being died at the hands of another human being.

I'm somewhat interested, but mostly in how this might affect the next election. Did Obama just get a big boost to his re-election chances?

  Now, now, lets keep it civil here.  I'm a moderate Republican and I think our President did quite well here.  The death of that murderer may not change things that much.  I don't see my nephews coming home anytime soon, but I bet their morale is high now!  Pray for them and their comrades.
  Joelene   

It's a bit of an "all-over-the-place" thing for me.

There's the whole "I find it a little bit rude, at best, for american soldiers to hunt down people on foreign soil, often uninvited."
I mean, this bothers me...

There's the whole "well, now he's dead... at what cost?"
Think that it'll reduce terrorism? I doubt it..
In fact, I think that the pursuit of him across country borders is likely to result in new terrorists taking up the cause against who they perceive as an invading army.

There's also the whole "yay, a horrible human being is gone!"
I can't deny that little bit.

But then theres the most morbid and horrible thing of 'em all...
I'm playing "dead pool" with my family. What that is is a game in which we write a list of ten names of famous individuals who we "think" will die each year.
Osama Bin Laden is on my brother's list.
This means I'm going "Oh for fudge's sakes! I'm never gonna win!"

I'm a bit in the so what category.

Is it going to bring back or comfort people who have suffered from his acts?

Does hunting down a person and killing them belittle our morals?

"we" claim to have the high moral ground but does that justify the acy of killing another person.

The bi laden's of the world have been turned into the USA hating people, or even western democracy hating people by years of acts that we have not addressed. In fact we have increased those acts.

I think Trump was reported as saying if we want Libya's oil we should go in and take it. This is how to create bin ladens.

I'm probably glad to see the back of him but how many more 'martyrs' will it create.

I lived in Liverpool during the IRA terror attacks. Killing them didn't solve anything, engaging in dialogue did, eventually. But killing is easy, dialogue is difficult.

Just thoughts

Cindy

After the attacks on 9/11, I had faith that America would bring justice to bin Laden.
At the time, I wanted nothing more than him captured dead or alive.

However, after a few years passed, I grew cynical of our government's ability to act.

Just after 9/11, America was the most united I had ever seen.
In the next few years, it became the most divided I had ever seen.
The Iraq war caused a lot of political infighting, whereas bin Laden was being forgotten.


Now that he has finally been killed, I'm reminded of the feeling I had after 9/11, when we were united.
Having accomplished a long sought-after mission, my faith has gone up.

Of course, we still have a whole lot of other problems to clean up, but I hope tonight's news will encourage us to stay committed to our missions.
His death isn't going to be the end of terrorism, but I feel satisfaction that justice has been served.

Don't think it's got anything to do with justice but revenge - and dancing in the street about someone's death is induces queasy feelings. Imagine those people out side the White House cheering and banner waving all had beards and were chanting in Arabic over the death of an American person and the general reaction would be horrified.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 02, 2011, 03:41:41 AM
Don't think it's got anything to do with justice but revenge - and dancing in the street about someone's death is induces queasy feelings. Imagine those people out side the White House cheering and banner waving all had beards and were chanting in Arabic over the death of an American person and the general reaction would be horrified.

I think one of the scenes that upset very many Americans after 9/11 was the rejoicing of Palestinians in the streets.  Same thing. We will never deal with the World problems by killing. No matter how much satisfaction the death of a particular person gives. You cannot be unraped, you cannot be unmurdered. We need to deal with the problems no matter how unpalatable it is.

Cindy

I have to admit that my thoughts were:

1. Unfortunately extremism just got another martyr.
2. Even so this is probably what the US should have done years ago instead of stirring up useless wars which we cant win.
3. Sadly this probably wont change much.

I feel pretty much the same as I guess a lot of people did when they knew Hitler and Co were all dead. Sometimes people are just evil.

Quote from: justmeinoz on May 02, 2011, 04:57:08 AM
I feel pretty much the same as I guess a lot of people did when they knew Hitler and Co were all dead. Sometimes people are just evil.

I'm thinking this is were it goes wrong for me. Hitler was a person who tried extermination of a group(s) of people because he felt that it made the world, his world, pure.

Were the Resistance movement in WWII terrorists? They were to one side, freedom fighters to the other.

I'm not making any apology for 9/11 or any other barbaric crimes. I've been very close to terror attacks. I've stood under a shower washing stuff off me that wasn't a part of me and throwing up at the same time.

But I think I'm coming from the position of effectiveness. I'm not sure that there is any evidence that Bin Laden was evil. He hated the Western Democracy's with a passion. Does that make him evil? He killed lots of innocent people, does that make him evil? "We' do the same. 'We" kill people now with drones etc, there is a compound lets fire a drone missile into it from XXX miles/kilometers away. It was success, we killed a high ranking terrorist.  The children and women who died are just a bit sad really.

I'm going to shut up.

Cindy

Like killing Gaddaffi's son and some grandkids yesterday.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 02, 2011, 05:21:35 AM
Like killing Gaddaffi's son and some grandkids yesterday.

Yes. Sins of the Father?

And I know that I can have total argument against that comment.

I attended a birthday party for a 1 year old. When do you take on the sins of your father?

Our you are just cute until proved otherwise

Cindy

I couldn't be happier, unless they had put his head on a stick!

Quote from: Tracey on May 02, 2011, 05:52:40 AM
I couldn't be happier, unless they had put his head on a stick!

I do this with the greatest respect. You have been a warrior. Why do you want to see a head on stick? What does that do?

Sorry I'm very definitely not trying to offend.


Cindy

I am glad he has gone. I think there will be others who pick up where he left off. So it doesn't change a whole lot.

What I do struggle with is seeing Americans dancing in the streets celebrating his death. To me it really puts them on the same level as the idiots in the middle east who burn flags. I do understand the feeling of relief the Americans must feel but dancing in the street ?

Quote from: Amy85 on May 02, 2011, 12:49:52 AM
I'm somewhat interested, but mostly in how this might affect the next election. Did Obama just get a big boost to his re-election chances?

I sure as hell hope NOT.  If anything, this claim that we had learned OBL was in Pakistan the whole time tells us that the continued presence in Afghanistan was a MAMMOTH error on the part of the military (of which BHO is the Commander in Chief). 

Further, as long as the economy is in the toilet, more people SHOULD look at those issues come next election.  We cannot afford four more years of BHO and the policies he has sought to ram down the throat over the objections of the populus.

As far as the death of OBL is concerned, I fully expect to see a spate of incidents over the next few months.  He was more likely a figurehead at this point in his life as opposed to a true leader.  By BHO making such a point of this having been a USA effort as opposed to a collaborative effort, he painted an even larger target on THIS country.

@ Cindy, I really don't need a head on a stick, once again I fall victim to posting first thing in the morning, or OUC: Operating Underinfluenced by Coffee! Is there a "caffeine filter" on these forums? I need it! Hugs, Tracey

"The king is dead, long live the king." 

No, I'm not pro-terrorist.  All I'm saying is now that Bin Laden is gone there is already someone else who has taken his place.  Terrorism will live on.

What I know is the US and other countries made Bin Laden public enemy #1 and by taking him out we celebrate a symbolic victory.  Was he the mastermind he's been portrayed to be?  Or was he just another cog in the wheel of terrorism?  I don't know.  But the simple fact the US put out heightened terrorist warnings immediately following his death says killing him did little in winning the war against terrorism.

What I am much more excited about is the people who live in the countries where terrorists are born and bred have been standing up to their dictators, protesting against them and forcing some out of office and out of their countries.  A strong message is being sent that inhumanity will not be tolerated much longer. 

The grass roots efforts by the citizens of those countries will go a lot farther than the symbolic killing of one man.  Let's hope our leaders do the right thing to support these grass roots efforts and help make the changes permanent.

Personally I don't really care.  Just get our people out of Afghanistan.

The other more serious problem that comes from this is that once again, the world gets to see the USA act in its all-too-typical double-standard mode.  We were all up in arms at the celebrations occurring in parts of the world when the Towers fell.  We felt it was wholy inappropriate given the loss of life.  Yet when OBL is killed, we have crowds of people in the USA dancing in the streets precisely because ONE person has been killed. 

And yet the masses cannot grasp why significant parts of the world population HATE the USA with a fervent passion. 

Of course, with the heightened awareness of the potential for incidents, expect the government to also use the death as a basis to further restrict some freedoms within the USA vis a vis additional searches for travel, increased paperwork for travel, et al. 

Personally, though this man was evil incarnate, I wish it had happened differently.  It would have been far better to capture him and bring him back and put him on trial in a very public way.  If he was to be executed (which he definitely deserved), it should be done in an orderly way.  I think we have just shown the adversary we are very much like them.

I have friends in the service and their moral is greatly improved, my brother almost cried (and he was mentally ruined by his naval experience).

Personally, I never liked all of this focus on death and war and terror. Maybe this will help some move on.

Inside the compound *WARNING* Some graphic content

http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/25088364#video=25090486 (http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/25088364#video=25090486)

The elite team behind the raid

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/20110502/pl_yblog_exclusive/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/20110502/pl_yblog_exclusive/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden)

Americans Celebrating

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_us_reaction (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_us_reaction)

Sure, there's one less evil person in the world, but that isn't going to change much, and I'm not the kind of person who gets any sort of satisfaction or feeling of justice over anyone's death, no matter what they did with their life.

Personally, I think the U.S. should keep its nose out of other countries' business, unless said country specifically invites the U.S. to help them with whatever political, social, etc., stuff they're dealing with. Starting wars that you can never win is never going to solve anything, it's just more people dying faster (since we all die eventually). I know this is a rather idealistic (and thus unrealistic) statement, but if everyone in the world refused to fight in wars, we'd always be at peace (with the exception of the constant quibbling of politicians and other persons in power).

And, as Laura91 said, Americans are total hypocrites. All this nonsense about freedom, while limiting more and more of citizens' rights in the name of so-called security, is bloody ridiculous and a waste of effort. But I digress..  :P

It was a hollow victory.  If he had been hunted down and killed in this manner within 1 year of 9/11, without going into large-scale foreign conflicts, it would have been much better.  We took 10 years though.  Sure, it's great from a revenge point of view, but so much has been saddled on this one person's shoulders.  Someone else will step up and take his place.  We're never going to end the problem of extremist muslims without addressing the root of WHY there are extremist muslims in the first place.  In that respect, I fear the US has done too much damage already.

last night i posted my comment on fb about this talking about how this isn't going to change anything at all. the war is still going, there's who knows how many hundreds of others that have probably already replaced him. this isn't going to make the world all sunshine and puppies. it took 2 minutes for someone to to give me flack for that. the entire homepage was people being all "wahoo! i think I'll have a drink to celebrate! ding dong the witch is dead!" probably dancing around like an idiot, yes it's true we got rid of one ONE evil mastermind to the attacks and it's better that he's not around anymore plus they would have executed him anyway but yeah wherever he was buried there would be a statue in no time and dancing around throwing a party about someone's death makes you no better than all the people over there we saw dancing and celebrating, burning american flags and effigies that looked like George W. Bush to upset us. and why did it take 10 years?! being super happy about a death even if they did horrible things seems barbaric to me. so I as soon as i found out and still am like "yep one down...now what?"

A few things came to my mind watching the news last night.

A)  The USA USA! chants were really boorish and ugly.

B)  I do not like the idea of our govt assassinating enemies any more than invading countries or torturing suspects.  We have really lost our way.

C)  Somehow it was hard for me to feel sad for him though.  I don't think that has ever happened to me before.

Oh let's see, he murdered over 3000 of our people, and when his time came he grabbed one of his 4 wives and used her for a human shield resulting in her death, and demonstrating Muslim attitudes toward women quite clearly.

He had it coming and so do all the other Muslim men who see women as property, chattel, and livestock.

I'd have loved to have gone to a party or rally or something last night, but my city wasn't having one and I had to get up really early for work.

My first thought was pure joy and relief, followed plenty of expletives on how I was feeling.  I proceeded to get the only alcoholic beverage in my fridge and drink it (while 'celebrating' online with my boyfriend and a friend.)

I realize that this is just one guy, that there is going to be a backlash at some point, that the 'war' (operation in reality, not war) will be going on for some time longer, and that terrorist organizations (within the US and outside of the US) will still be going strong.  I recognize this and I am mildly afraid for my family members in the service, but I'm still happy.   

I have no issues with killing people (who have committed atrocious crimes) and I have no issue with wars...and I don't feel remotely sad about this guy's death.

The world has enough bad people in it without a mastermind putting all of them together.  Granted terrorism isn't over yet but Bin Laden was the poster boy of terrorism.  Only the fanatics will miss him.

9/11 Families react

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_sept11_families;_ylt=AsBYyI6tgPlOqqlC1PBahzu9F4l4;_ylu=X3oDMTFjNHZxMTkxBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bl9wcm9tb3NfdG9wX2JhcgRzbGsDOTEx (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_sept11_families;_ylt=AsBYyI6tgPlOqqlC1PBahzu9F4l4;_ylu=X3oDMTFjNHZxMTkxBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bl9wcm9tb3NfdG9wX2JhcgRzbGsDOTEx)

A dear friend of mine who may well have become my S/O died in the 9/11 attacks

I have very mixed emotions about this whole thing at this time

Thank you everyone for your participation in this discussion

Hugs

- Virginia

Quote from: Laura91 on May 02, 2011, 12:37:39 AM
I don't care. It's not really going to change anything.

This.

Not Everyone is celebrating Bin Laden's death

http://observers.france24.com/content/20110502-pakistan-saudi-arabia-not-iraq-afghanistan-everyone-celebrating-bin-laden-death?ns_campaign=nl_quot_en&ns_mchannel=email_ (http://observers.france24.com/content/20110502-pakistan-saudi-arabia-not-iraq-afghanistan-everyone-celebrating-bin-laden-death?ns_campaign=nl_quot_en&ns_mchannel=email_)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/story?id=13512344 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/story?id=13512344)

The backstory has started to emerge. If the above link works it's a piece about OBLs courier.

Oh, the party is this weekend.  :D ;D

I can understand that Americans might be happy at Bin Liner's death, but dancing in the streets is just not the sort of thing we would do here.
There was just a mood of sober reflection if I remember correctly, when the Bali bombers were executed in Indonesia, and a realisation that there were still some on the loose.
There is a general sense here of there being plenty to be done to defeat this menace yet.
Karen.

If he had been hunted down and killed in this manner within 1 year of 9/11, without going into large-scale foreign conflicts, it would have been much better.  We took 10 years though.

Oh I wouldn't be too sure of that.  Granted 10 years is a long time, so long that most people would have given up, lost hope, or quit.  Then there are the kind of people that only exist as Crazy Americans (though several other cultures also breed them).  Those people, pay any price, bear any burden, climb every mountain - ain't no mountain high enough, ain't no river wide enough to keep me from you types - they were always going to win out in the end.  There were just X number of people - the kind that tend to end up in places like Delta Seal Team 6, the Pentagon, the Presidential Administration, the CIA - who were always looking for him, and were always going to kill him when they found him.  This was no ordinary mission, this was a quest for revenge and justice (either one, epic in and of itself alone) that never quits.  I'm not sure it doesn't send an even deeper message.  There are people in the world who are not 'off topic' ever.  Not for a minute, not for a second - can't distract them.  Do Not Piss Them Off.  Also: DO NOT ATTACK THE UNITED STATES WE WILL VERY SERIOUSLY ->-bleeped-<- WITH YOU - ask Japan.^*  No matter when it's postmarked, all that matters is that its delivered.


As for the whole hunted him down and killed him.  Yeah, 'bout that...   Just imagine, had the Royal Wedding not gone as planed, had some terrorist got in and killed Kate, Willis, Harry or Liz?  How long would MI5 and those highly elite SAS and ex-SAS soldiers hunted that person down?  Would they have quite after one year?  Four?  Ten?  How 'bout never?  How long did Israel and other Jews hunt down the ex-Nazi's who ran the death camps?  Yeah.  So about America....  I mean the very real reason that heads of state are not ordering the assassination of other heads of state on a routine basis is that whole bit about revenge.  It's not that they are gentlemen, nope.  Far from it.  It's that they know, that they have guys who would do that, as does the other side.  Checkmate.

* - Or you could go with any of our fine number of domestic brands, like asking Tim McVie, the people at Waco, MOVE in Philadelphia, what's it's like to declare war on the USA, even if you're doing it from Texas or in the cradle of the nation.

Quote from: tekla on May 03, 2011, 08:18:55 AM
....even if you're doing it from Texas or in the cradle of the nation.

Aren't those the same thing?

*runs

I'd have wanted a trial.

I would have preferred that he be captured alive and made to stand trial as well

I would have preferred that he be captured alive and made to stand trial as well

He could have turned himself in at any of the convenient world-wide locations of USA Inc. and we would have given him a trial.

I agree with Tekla. Also, two things about Pakistan. One, they let Osama live there. Two, they let us go in and kill him. The latter eclipses the former.

He could have turned himself in at any of the convenient world-wide locations of USA Inc. and we would have given him a trial.

LOL  :laugh:

I agree with Tekla.

I agree with Mr. Rogers on some issues, but that's beside the point

Check this out... Apparently Bin Bin wasn't armed

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110503/ts_yblog_theenvoy/in-aftermath-of-bin-laden-raid-new-intelligence-shifting-accounts (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110503/ts_yblog_theenvoy/in-aftermath-of-bin-laden-raid-new-intelligence-shifting-accounts)

That won't incite any fanatics to carry out attacks on us  :P

Quote from: Virginia M on May 03, 2011, 09:19:04 PM
I agree with Mr. Rogers on some issues, but that's beside the point

Lol

Apparently Bin Bin wasn't armed

He should have armed himself then.  Really?  Like he didn't know that someday that doorbell was going to ring and it wasn't going to be Avon Calling?

I don't care about the person, but how the lies/truth evolve. Fascinating. Is there truth?

Truth is a theoretical construct.

Like all of these guys, I won't miss him. What I do miss is the idea that someone, anyone is presumed innocent until found guilty in a court of law.

I'm not saying that he was innocent, but it's for a court to determine.

I also think that having captured him, alive, and sparring as many lives in his home/compound would have proven something to the world-that we are a nation of laws which respects life. (quite unlike the terrorists)

Having Bin Laden face the families of those he helped to murder would have given the families some satisfaction and closure, too. It would also show future terrorists that their mission is one of shame and sorrow. Having Islamic clerics visit UBL in prison to admonish him for shaming the Koran might have also made a statement.

SEALs thought Bin Laden was trying to reach for a nearby weapon

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden)

Can you imagine what would have happened if we had just captured him? 

First we'd have to deal with the countless nuts who would come out of the woodwork with bombs strapped to their waist, blowing themselves up in crowds, demanding bin Laden be released.

Then we'd have to put him up for trial and who knows how that would turn out.  Of course all that time more nuts would be killing innocent people.

And in the end if we found him guilty and sentenced him to death the nuts would turn up the heat and more innocent people would die.  And in the end bin Laden would be their hero/martyr.  Who knows, a new religion could have been formed.

No, I think there was only one choice once they entered the house.  He had to die.  And burying him at sea was also the better option.  No grave for the kooks and nuts to visit and remember him and walk away with renewed revenge in their hearts.

Can you imagine what would have happened if we had just captured him?

I think the friends, family and relatives of the 9/11 victims should have all had the opportunity to kick him in the  :icon_censored:  at ground zero, but that's just my opinion

Like all the fanatical nutters aren't going to start some (more) stuff anyway? :P

The fanatical nutters hate us anyway, but at least a figurehead has been shown to be fallible.  There won't be any pilgrimages to his grave either now he is on the bottom of the ocean.
As for being unarmed, he was a combatant not in uniform , so stiff bickies Osama.

There won't be any pilgrimages to his grave either now he is on the bottom of the ocean.

Al Qaeda members and/or sympathizers won't be able gather and/or congregate in one general area? It definitely will be interesting  to guess where the new leader of Al Qaeda will strike in order to prove themselves

Kia Ora,

::)  They crucified a young Jewish guy call Jesus and look what happens after they did that !

Personally I think along the lines of Gandhi "An eye for an eye will make all the world blind!"

Revenge is not sweet, it just fuels more revenge which fuels more revenge which fuels more revenge etc...

BTW like the controversy surrounding Hitler, did Osama ever pull the trigger ? What I mean by this is did he ever physically kill anybody? 

Metta Zenda :)

Rules of Engagement included only taking OBL alive if he was naked. Otherwise there would have been no way of knowing if he wasn't wearing some form of suicide vest/belt.

Also seems that he hadn't left the same room, for over five years. That according to the wife that he threw towards our SEAL team.

Quote from: Zenda on May 06, 2011, 02:11:23 AM


BTW like the controversy surrounding Hitler, did Osama ever pull the trigger ? What I mean by this is did he ever physically kill anybody? 

Metta Zenda :)

I was on a jury in a first degree murder case.  The man charged never pulled the trigger, but he hired someone to do it.  The trigger man testified against his boss for a lesser charge.  The man we tried was found guilty and was sentenced to life in prison.  In the US as in most other countries, the one who hired the hitman is just as guilty as if he pulled the trigger himself.
  Joelene

I'm not sure about this post so feel free to comment. It is not meant to be argumentative or nasty BTW.

My personal opinions about bin Laden's killing are on the thread and I stand by them.

What gets me is that this was a total set up. They knew where he was and went in with probably the world's best assault team. Brave men all, and I mean that. They were wearing cameras and night goggles and were recording stuff in real time. It was being viewed by the head of the CIA and the President of the USA, and no doubt others. Once reported the story keeps changing. Why?  He used a wife as a shield, yes/no. He was armed, yes/no. He had weapons in reach, yes/no. He had not left the compound for five years ::) so they knew he was there five years ago?

I'm in no way trying to be rude to the people who have suffered from this person. But many people in his part of the world have suffered from USA foreign policy in appalling ways. Visit a Palestinian refugee camp. You will very quickly ( if you live) find out why the USA is hated by these people.

People compare this person to Hitler, no one has brought up Stalin or the North Korean nut, or other evil nuts who  kill their people. I lost a friend in 9/11. I know many of you lost more than that. I've had friends killed in IRA terrorist attacks while having a quiet drink in a pub. I understand the HELL of a terrorist attack

We are not tackling the problem. I'm sorry to say this, and I hope I do not lose friends; But I do not think this person was evil, he was waging war in the only way he could. Yes he was willing to kill innocent people and did. He was willing to use unprovoked attacks, and did. People suffer and die. And yes great and awful sins were committed. But to wage war against the USA, how do you do it? (Read by the way the War of the Flea)

But 'we' have been and are doing the same. Does an Afghanistan woman cry for her baby any differently? Was her labour and love and acceptance any different to yours?  Does a Pakistani woman think that killing her family is OK because a USA drone missile missed its target and killed her family, but we said sorry, so that's OK.?  So when someone in Pakistan accidentally lets off a drone missile in California and destroys a shopping centre that's OK? Whoops Sorry. But It's a fight against terror. We make mistakes but we fill in corrective action reports.

Have a think. What is American foreign policy in the middle east? Do you know? Are you even interested? What Western country has the longest established and most politically critical relationships with middle east countries? The USA is seen as an enemy by many middle east countries, and dare I say it one of the reasons is how little concern you put into your political system.


I think many people in many democracies will suggest that USA foreign policy is driven by big business (BB). When BB can cause a country to go to war that is not good. But it gets worse, Mr Trump was reported asy said 'If we want Libya's oil we should just go and get it' . Now that is what Hitler 's foreign policy was.

Sorry
Ranting but feels good.

And of course I'm open to debate

Cindy

Quote from: Joelene9 on May 06, 2011, 04:34:17 AM
  I was on a jury in a first degree murder case.  The man charged never pulled the trigger, but he hired someone to do it.  The trigger man testified against his boss for a lesser charge.  The man we tried was found guilty and was sentenced to life in prison.  In the US as in most other countries, the one who hired the hitman is just as guilty as if he pulled the trigger himself.
  Joelene

Kia Ora Joelene,

::) I guess this guilty verdict would apply to a few American presidents, also some European holders of power too...

It all depends on which side of the fence one stands...

Metta Zenda :)

Last I herd he died in 2006 from kidney failure. But they quickly shut up about it because they where not ready yet. But I think the magic he can performed to make the laws of common physics Just not exist 9/11/2001 is simply amazing. Why we would want an anomoly like that dead is beind me. He also from a cave on the other side of the world made NORAD (the most high tech inpenigable defence stystem ever) Stand down for a morning. The most amazing thing he did was be wanted by the CIA and be on the payroll at the same time, and even visit with CIA agents after 9/11 and get treated in an american hos[ital by an american doctor.

A truly magical man. I wish I could do what he does. I would end war instead of start it.
Or maybe it was Americans all along? That would explain a ton of questions.

People in the Middle East certainly don't object to Americas foriegn policy of buying tanker after tanker of oil, the foriegn policy they object to is our support of Israel. So if you say American foriegn policy is the problem, what are you really saying?

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 02, 2011, 12:36:52 AM
Perfectly honest?  Sad.  Sure, he was a terrible person who did terrible things, but death is still death and killing is still killing.  The whole enterprise makes me sad.

I only celebrate the deaths of others when death releases them from physical torment and they go in peace.  All other death is mourned.  May not be a popular sentiment in this case, but it's still what I believe.  I'm sad that a human being died at the hands of another human being.

Do you mourn the 30,000 children that dies every day out of starvation! I know several families who lost father./mother; I see their children almost every month. I am biting my tong not to say what I really feel. Let me just say that some of my direct ancestors were gas and burn by Nazis. Am I sad that Usama, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc are death? Hell no, I hope they will never see G-d.

Bin Laden isn't dead, and won't die for a long long time.

As the old old saying goes: "He isn't dead as long as he exists in memory and in our hearts and minds." That doesn't just go for loved ones who pass away. It goes for anyone who lives on through word and thought and deed... remembrance isn't discriminatory, fondness and hatred mean the same, and have the same effect.

The only way to kill Bin Laden is to forget about him. Totally. Let the mythos die with the man. Then that will be an end to him, for good.

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 02, 2011, 04:13:10 AM
I have to admit that my thoughts were:

1. Unfortunately extremism just got another martyr.
2. Even so this is probably what the US should have done years ago instead of stirring up useless wars which we cant win.
3. Sadly this probably wont change much.

This, more or less. I read on the TwilightSucks forum I'm on that Al Qaueda (spelling? who gives a ->-bleeped-<-) is actually a hell of a lot less organized than most of us think. I've also heard, from a lot of people, that Bin Laden was more of a figurehead than anything.

I don't think it's going to change things, except to boost our morale and make them probably hate us more, but I think it is nice to know he's dead. As long as he actually is, and this isn't some BS conspiracy. I've got no qualms with taking joy in someone's death, but I'll be first to admit that my morals are very skewed compared to most.

Al Qaeda confirms Osama bin Laden's death

http://www.france24.com/en/20110506-al-qaeda-confirms-osama-bin-laden-death-islamist-websites?ns_campaign=nl_quot_en&amp;ns_mchannel=email_marketing&amp;ns_source=NLQ (http://www.france24.com/en/20110506-al-qaeda-confirms-osama-bin-laden-death-islamist-websites?ns_campaign=nl_quot_en&amp;ns_mchannel=email_marketing&amp;ns_source=NLQ)

The freaks keep freaking.

Unfortunately I think 'they' will try for a 'spectacular' event. I just hope it fails.

Why are people nasty?

Cindy

Quote from: CindyJames on May 07, 2011, 02:34:48 AM
Why are people nasty?

Because it's easier, and takes less effort, to blame the world than to look inside and fix the real underlying issues. A majority of hate comes from insecurity, but most never admit to that, content to focus outward and vent their rage upon everything that gives rise to that insecurity.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 07, 2011, 02:44:40 AM
Because it's easier, and takes less effort, to blame the world than to look inside and fix the real underlying issues. A majority of hate comes from insecurity, but most never admit to that, content to focus outward and vent their rage upon everything that gives rise to that insecurity.

I know. I find it easier to love. But I think I'm strange.

I think it was Isaac Asimov in the Foundation series put in a sentence that has dictated my life. "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" . It is so true.

Sadly it is not understood.

Cindy

Quote from: kate durcal on May 06, 2011, 06:37:29 PM
Do you mourn the 30,000 children that dies every day out of starvation! I know several families who lost father./mother; I see their children almost every month. I am biting my tong not to say what I really feel. Let me just say that some of my direct ancestors were gas and burn by Nazis. Am I sad that Usama, Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, etc are death? Hell no, I hope they will never see G-d.

I think you totally and utterly misunderstood my comment.  I never said I was sad that Osama was dead, I said that any type of killing saddened me.  Any type of killing committed by anybody.  I don't support the enterprise of killing.

Yes, starving children are sad too, but that's nothing to do with murder, which is all I was talking about.  And I'm sorry your ancestors were murdered, but to me that would still be no reason (in my opinion) to continue the cycle of death.  If someone killed one of my relatives, I would feel the same toward their killer.  Sorry if that's not popular (apparently I'm supposed to have some bloodlust) but that's just the way it is.  Please respect that.

I actually didn't react to the news. It's doesn't really change anything. What needs to change is the governemnt's foreign policy. We're less safe, in my opinion. Bin Laden was trained by the CIA. In my opinion, they knew where he was. They just wante d to pick the pick time. Bin Laden was taken out because he knew too much.

Gennee

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
-Clarence Darrow

  You may quote peaceful tracts from the likes of Ghandi and MLK, but it will never stop those peoples and cultures that advocate violence.  World history is full of that.  Back in the Soviet era there were a lot of kidnappings of diplomats from many countries in Lebanon.  The Soviets acted just like the kidnappers of their diplomat.  They found out who was behind it, kidnapped and killed his brother and sent his gonads to his family via a courier.  They immediately got their diplomat back, unharmed.  The US and other countries had to wait awhile for their diplomats and education advisers to be returned dead or alive.   
  Remember, bin Laden has had more moslems killed than the foreigners because they were not Sunni or from the right sect of Sunni.   A lot of his henchmen used the locals for suicide bombings simply they are not from their tribe!   Both of my nephews witness this crap of bombing the mosques at prayer time!  One thing that kept bin Laden in power was his openess to the locals.  He even built roads and bridges for them.  There might be a disaffecton of the Taliban from the al Qaeda simply because the mad doctor Ayman al-Zawahiri, his second in command, is favoring his fellow Egyptians to the top slots.  There might be more bloodshed amongst the al Qaeda if Ayman al-Zawahiri is selected to head it. 
  But also, there are the many colors of al Qaeda that the main body cannot control.  These loose cannons may kill more of their own people and others who don't abide by their beliefs.  Stay tuned in these interesting times!
  Joelene

Quote from: Joelene9 on May 08, 2011, 01:06:55 AM
  You may quote peaceful tracts from the likes of Ghandi and MLK, but it will never stop those peoples and cultures that advocate violence.  World history is full of that.  Back in the Soviet era there were a lot of kidnappings of diplomats from many countries in Lebanon.  The Soviets acted just like the kidnappers of their diplomat.  They found out who was behind it, kidnapped and killed his brother and sent his gonads to his family via a courier.  They immediately got their diplomat back, unharmed.  The US and other countries had to wait awhile for their diplomats and education advisers to be returned dead or alive.   
  Remember, bin Laden has had more moslems killed than the foreigners because they were not Sunni or from the right sect of Sunni.   A lot of his henchmen used the locals for suicide bombings simply they are not from their tribe!   Both of my nephews witness this crap of bombing the mosques at prayer time!  One thing that kept bin Laden in power was his openess to the locals.  He even built roads and bridges for them.  There might be a disaffecton of the Taliban from the al Qaeda simply because the mad doctor Ayman al-Zawahiri, his second in command, is favoring his fellow Egyptians to the top slots.  There might be more bloodshed amongst the al Qaeda if Ayman al-Zawahiri is selected to head it. 
  But also, there are the many colors of al Qaeda that the main body cannot control.  These loose cannons may kill more of their own people and others who don't abide by their beliefs.  Stay tuned in these interesting times!
  Joelene

Kia Ora Joelene,
::)  The universal law of cause and effect "Violence begets violence!" "Hatred begets hatred!" and "Stupidity begets stupidity!" and the latter seems to be the biggest danger/threat to humanity...

Metta Zenda :)

My personal thoughts on the Death of Osama Bin Laden:

One madman down, too many more to go.

- It was the worst thing we could have done, both as a nation, and as a unified body of people.
Why? Well, think about it. If you're fighting for an extremist cause (i.e. Al-Qaeda) and someone just took out your leader, you're going to do one of two things. A) You'll commit suicide because you refuse to be captured by the infidels (from their point of view, of course), or B) you'll be spurred to fight for your fallen leader in his honor (think "Remember the Alamo!").

We just kicked a HUGE beehive, and I don't think we have enough epipens to go around, if you get what I mean.

- I also personally think everybody needs to look back at the Declaration of Independence. There's a famous line that pretty much says that the government is in place to insure the well-being of the people and provide for the common defense. That doesn't mean go defend everyone else, meanwhile there are people without homes living on the streets of the national capital. It's the capital for crying out loud!

Now, I know that statement just kinda sounded like I was saying no homeless people in the capital, but they're alright everywhere else. That wasn't my intent. I was just saying that when somebody thinks of a capital, especially ours, in theory, they think, "wow. This sure is a nice place. Sparkling waters, immaculate streets, everyone has a fair say in everything."

Now, in reality: "Wow. This place is terrible. Green, murky water, litter in the streets, people with no homes sitting on streetcorners hoping not to get murdered while they try to get barely enough money for breakfast. There's corrupt congressmen and congresswomen, and hate crimes go on everywhere. I think I can even hear bullets flying through the air way over yonder."

If we can't take care of our own people, why should we try to take care of everyone else's? Okay, yeah so they had a tsunami (Japan), of course we send them help. Okay, you had an enormous earthquake that leveled 3/4 of your country (Haiti). We'll send you help. Okay, you're having a civil war (think 'Nam)? We'll help the people that aren't directly involved but in exchange nobody comes through our picket line, and we establish a DMZ around our facility. When you guys are finished duking it out, you can have your what's left of your country back.

Instead, in that situation we say "we must fight communism! It's evil! (Staying with the Nam thing here)" Billions of dollars and millions dead later, alright we need to leave. We're screwed they're screwed. Why don't we just haul *** and pray they don't all get nuked.

American government officials seem to all have a like-minded thought that the whole world needs our help, the whole world wants our help, and the whole world is getting our help. I think we have military garrisons in nearly every country on the whole dang planet!

Alright. I think I'm done ranting.

These are my opinions.

I realise this is off topic. But from the previous poster I would just like to make an observation.

Caveats. I'm married to an American woman, I love her and her family. I think a number of American people on this site know my love, friendship and respect for them and for their country. I am totally thankful for the protection Australia gets from the USA. And I hope Americans are thankful for the effort we put in to help.

The last time I was in the USA I was in SF. I watched in Union Square while a homeless drunk/addict leaned against the front wheel of a Rolls Royce and lost control of his bladder and bowels. It was 10am. He was taken away by police, I hope for some help.

It just hit me of the reality of modern America.

I remember the picture of the girl in Vietnam running down the street with her back on fire from napalm. 

That picture, taken by a USA reporter, and who subsequently rescued the young girl, defined war for me.

The man in Union Square, for me, defined USA welfare systems.

Sorry off topic but I think relevant to the last post. "You" want to be the worlds police but have lost sight of the plot, and yes I suspect it is the BB aspect that causes it.  No money in welfare, heaps in developing weapons. But then you have to find somewhere to use them.

Sorry for the rant.


Cindy

I often feel like we need to get off the world stage and get back to taking better care of our own people... The American people need to get the politicians off the biz as usual carousel

Not missing Bin Bin much

Quote from: Virginia M on May 08, 2011, 03:54:46 AM
I often feel like we need to get off the world stage and get back to taking better care of our own people... The American people need to get the politicians off the biz as usual carousel
Not missing Bin Bin much

I so agree!

Yep, any country that lets it's own weak & vulnerable sleep on the street should be banned from badmouthing anywhere else (I'm including my own heartless country)

I didn't really go crazy celebrating or anything, but I was surprised to finally hear the news of his death. And I'm glad he's no longer alive to cause more harm to anyone else.

Here's an idea: Bring all our troops home from everywhere in the world.  Take the money we blow on "Defense" (it's really Offense) and put it into our failing infrastructure.

See the Report Card (http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/)

Once infrastructure totally breaks down, this country won't be able to function.  And we will be easy pickings.

Most of the countries that hate us do so because we stick our noses into everyone's business, try to tell them how to run their lives and take up residence in their countries.  Pull out and a lot of that hatred will eventually die.  And as far as intelligence is concerned, we can still do that behind the scenes, just like everyone else.

Imagine turning on your faucet and being able to drink the water.  Imagine driving on our roads without a pothole taking out your wheels.  Imagine wind and solar energy replacing fossil fuel energy.  And imagine the cost savings to each and every citizen of this country.

A solid infrastructure or dead enemies?  I'll take the former any day.

Quote from: JungianZoe on May 07, 2011, 07:39:46 AM
I think you totally and utterly misunderstood my comment.  I never said I was sad that Osama was dead, I said that any type of killing saddened me.  Any type of killing committed by anybody.  I don't support the enterprise of killing.

Yes, starving children are sad too, but that's nothing to do with murder, which is all I was talking about.  And I'm sorry your ancestors were murdered, but to me that would still be no reason (in my opinion) to continue the cycle of death.  If someone killed one of my relatives, I would feel the same toward their killer.  Sorry if that's not popular (apparently I'm supposed to have some bloodlust) but that's just the way it is.  Please respect that.

In 1961 there was 3 billons humans, in 1999 the number has risen to 6 billion, by 2045 the number will be about 9 billon, with a great proportion demanding "American Standards of Living" Carrying capacity of earth assuming every arable land is exploited as intensive  and efficiently as US  6.2 billions. What do you think is going to happen to the the "excess 3 billions"
You look like a young woman, you better get used to the idea of "wholesale killing: in the name of National Interest (read food and water). Me, I do not have to worrie, I will be long dead.

Quote from: kate durcal on May 11, 2011, 09:45:00 PM
In 1961 there was 3 billons humans, in 1999 the number has risen to 6 billion, by 2045 the number will be about 9 billon, with a great proportion demanding "American Standards of Living" Carrying capacity of earth assuming every arable land is exploited as intensive  and efficiently as US  6.2 billions. What do you think is going to happen to the the "excess 3 billions"
You look like a young woman, you better get used to the idea of "wholesale killing: in the name of National Interest (read food and water). Me, I do not have to worrie, I will be long dead.

Okay friends, this topic is getting out of focus... It was meant as a thread for people to discuss their feelings regarding Bin Laden

I can understand a bit of thread drift, that is somewhat expected, but argumentative posturing will not be tolerated

Thank you all for your participation in this discussion, but I am thinking to request this thread locked

Quote from: Virginia M on May 11, 2011, 10:46:46 PM
Okay friends, this topic is getting out of focus... It was meant as a thread for people to discuss their feelings regarding Bin Laden

I can understand a bit of thread drift, that is somewhat expected, but argumentative posturing will not be tolerated

Thank you all for your participation in this discussion, but I am thinking to request this thread locked

Thank you, Virginia... before I display my youthful naivete in a manner unbecoming of my code of respect.

Breathe, Zoe, breathe...  :icon_cry:

If you combine a complete and utter ignorance of both basic government and current geo-political realities with tissue-thin ethics it sure makes for more laughs than an episode of Modern Family.

  Bin Laden is dead, whatever things or events happen directly from this will be short lived.  Bin Laden will be remembered long after al-Qaeda is disbanded for the actions against a superpower, even for those who don't follow in his beliefs.  In the old Communist countries, they taught the revolutionary virtues of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, even though they dispoused their capitalist ideals.   
  It is from my Christian belief that he, as well as all others, including saints and despots, will face Judgement and give an account of himself for the entry into God's Kingdom.  We're here on Earth now and must live on.   It is time for all of us to bury him.  Bravo Zulu at sea.
  Joelene

While many cheered his death, Bin Laden accomplished his goal, to financially hurt the US.  By some estimates, the post 9/11 cost to the US for the war on terror was about $2.5 trillion, most became part of our national debt.  This year alone, US taxpayers will be burdened with $45 billion in interest on that money.  And the future doesn't look so bright.  Economists are saying these costs will continue ad infinitum. 

Next year the US plans on spending another $114 billion on wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, $125 billion for the Pentagon, $14 billion for Homeland Security and billions more on intelligence and aid to Pakistan. 

I haven't seen the figures on what al Qaeda spent or what Bin Laden personally spent but I'm sure they got a lot of bang for their buck.  And it is our kids and their kids who will be paying the tab for a very long time.  They, like the people killed on 9/11, had no part in the actions that stir up emotions of hatred in the likes of people like Bin Laden but pay they will.

OBL personally may not be able to further hurt innocent people, but what he has done will continue to cause incalculable harm.  In some ways, we only shot the messenger.

Apparently Bin Bin was still very active in the planning of attacks

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110512/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110512/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden)

Officials: Bin Laden eyed small cities as targets

By KIMBERLY DOZIER, AP Intelligence Writer – Thu May 12, 7:45 am ET
WASHINGTON – Though hunted and in hiding, Osama bin Laden remained the driving force behind every recent al-Qaida terror plot, U.S. officials say, citing his private journal and other documents recovered in last week's raid.
Until Navy SEALs killed him a week ago, bin Laden dispensed chilling advice to the leaders of al-Qaida groups from Yemen to London: Hit Los Angeles, not just New York, he wrote. Target trains as well as planes. If possible, strike on significant dates, such as the Fourth of July and the upcoming 10th anniversary of the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
Above all, he urged, kill more Americans in a single attack, to drive them from the Arab world.
Bin Laden's written words show that counterterrorist officials worldwide underestimated how key he remained to running the organization, shattering the conventional thinking that he had been reduced through isolation to being an inspirational figurehead, U.S. officials said Wednesday.
His personal, handwritten journal and his massive collection of computer files show he helped plan every recent major al-Qaida threat the U.S. is aware of, including plots in Europe last year that had travelers and embassies on high alert, two officials said. So far, no new plots have been uncovered in bin Laden's writings, but intelligence officials say it will take weeks, if not months, to go through them.

Yeah, I'll bet that he had weapons of mass destruction in his secret lair too.

I have mixed feelings about Bin Laden's death.  I know it may provide some sense of closure for the friends and families of those who died on 11 September 2001 but I'm sure it will spark some form of retaliation from these terrorists.

Quote from: LadyTeresa on May 12, 2011, 12:21:55 PM
I have mixed feelings about Bin Laden's death.  I know it may provide some sense of closure for the friends and families of those who died on 11 September 2001 but I'm sure it will spark some form of retaliation from these terrorists.

I will say: "bring in on" In my humble opinion the war in Afghanistan should have been conducted by air attacks, and special ops "seek and destroy" mission, and the type of ops  executed against Pablo Ecobar (e.g. if you cannot get Pablo, get his dentist, sooner or later people get tired and turn him over)

Yest to conduct this type of operation will have to have the political determination to do it, and with all the current sensibilities and political correctness, I am afraid it is and was a no go. The cost of our high moral stance: we are bankrupting ourselves. yes, 10 year and 1 billon dollar just to kilkl Usama.

Quote from: kate durcal on May 12, 2011, 08:57:34 PM
I will say: "bring in on" In my humble opinion the war in Afghanistan should have been conducted by air attacks, and special ops "seek and destroy" mission, and the type of ops  executed against Pablo Ecobar (e.g. if you cannot get Pablo, get his dentist, sooner or later people get tired and turn him over)

Yest to conduct this type of operation will have to have the political determination to do it, and with all the current sensibilities and political correctness, I am afraid it is and was a no go. The cost of our high moral stance: we are bankrupting ourselves. yes, 10 year and 1 billon dollar just to kilkl Usama.

Quite possibly the most offensive post since.....well the last thing that you posted on this thread. I am lost for words! >:(

Please enlighten me as to what is exactly offensive!  ???

There is nothing offensive about the truth. I have not use foul language at all, or  belittle anybody, at most I have a few grammatical error and typos.

Since Vietnam, we have been forgetting about the cost of winning wars. We are fighting people so determine to  hurt us that they will stop at nothing, even their women have no qualms at strapping some plastic explosive and blow themselves to kingdom come just to hurt us.

I am not for war, I have been on one, had a bullet hole to prove it, plus still I do not sleep well, so it is not like I am praying for one, but this people -the Islamic extremists- started. Now, what are you prepared to do to win? Use harsh language, or try to play cumbaya with them? I am just telling you in my expert opinion what it would take to really defeat the enemy. The solution is not pretty but war is what it is.

I don't see where it's all that hard to understand that if you declare war it's not unexpected that the other side might well take it up and fight back.  (Which works for both sides here, BTW). 

If you don't really understand the 9-11 attacks (or think it's because 'they hate our freedom') then you really don't understand what's going on.  Likewise, if our hunting him down and killing him shocks you, you really don't understand what's going on.

Quote from: kate durcal on May 12, 2011, 08:57:34 PM
we are bankrupting ourselves. yes, 10 year and 1 billon dollar just to kilkl Usama.

I'm not sure exactly how much we spent specifically on hunting down and killing OBL but I do know the costs of the wars since 9/11 is in the trillions.  I would venture to guess if just the money we spent on OBL personally was added up it would be more mind boggling than just $1B.

No one does war better than the USA.  And no country comes even close to what we spend on defense.  With as good as we are supposed to be at this kind of thing, I was surprised it took so long to nail him.

Quote from: tekla on May 13, 2011, 05:04:29 PM
I don't see where it's all that hard to understand that if you declare war it's not unexpected that the other side might well take it up and fight back.  (Which works for both sides here, BTW). 

If you don't really understand the 9-11 attacks (or think it's because 'they hate our freedom') then you really don't understand what's going on.  Likewise, if our hunting him down and killing him shocks you, you really don't understand what's going on.

Please, enlighten us?

Katie, you are advocating the U.S murdering innocent people. Call me naive if you must, but yes I still find that shocking.

not OBL, OIL.

Quote from: MillieB on May 13, 2011, 05:47:34 PM
Please, enlighten us?

Katie, you are advocating the U.S murdering innocent people. Call me naive if you must, but yes I still find that shocking.

I am not advocating murder of anybody. War is always murder, and sometime to edn a war and preclude more death and more economic ruin, a country has to choose the leeer of evils; that is what we did when we bomb hiroshima and nagasaki. Now we are embroiled in a dirt war with some extremist, a costly  asymmetric war. What I presented above was exactly what it would take to dismantle that or any similar organizations and win the war. How many innocents will die? To many, I admit! but at the long run it would save more life in both sides. There are examples of countries who had the political will to conduct such a war. Yes there innocent casualties in both side and when look at it with the ethical ad moralistic glasses on, those war and those regimes have been condemn as barbaric, but the countries that emerged out them are know healthy, peaceful and prosperous, costly yes. Now there are other countries were there was no such a political will to conduct such a war, and now and for the lat one hundred years the asymmetric war goes on with no end in sight.

With the plan I outlined above the war against Usama/Taliban would have been over in 2 years at less human and economic cost. Now, have we won the war? if we live Afghanistan today or  next day, what do you thing is going to happen? Let m offer you my expert opinion, the Taliban would be back in control in no time (a year or two), then back to training terrorist (Uh, did I say back to the future?) And if we stay, how many trillions of American tax payers are we willing to sink into a lose cause? This is the kind of narrative we refuse to consider because our high mind, costly and perilous stand

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 12:27:22 PM
With the plan I outlined above the war against Usama/Taliban would have been over in 2 years at less human and economic cost.

Ignorance truly must be bliss.

A war over idealism, and radical religious beliefs, doesn't just go away; most certainly not in that period of time.

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 12:27:22 PM
Let m[e] offer you my expert opinion

Again. While I admit expertise is hard to define in a case like this, claiming you are one when you have obvious logic gaps is rather silly.

As for the topic at hand:

I was indifferent when it happened and still am. Cutting one head off of a (Lernaean) Hydra doesn't do much other than annoy it. What I am very happy about is that they captured a ton of information.

Quote from: Domitia on May 14, 2011, 01:01:26 PM
Ignorance truly must be bliss.

A war over idealism, and radical religious beliefs, doesn't just go away; most certainly not in that period of time.
Again. While I admit expertise is hard to define in a case like this, claiming you are one when you have obvious logic gaps is rather silly.

As for the topic at hand:

I was indifferent when it happened and still am. Cutting one head off of a (Lernaean) Hydra doesn't do much other than annoy it. What I am very happy about is that they captured a ton of information.

i cannot tell you my exact qualifications without putting myself in danger. Let just say several degrees beyond the usual bachelor, more than 2 decades serving some masters whose job is preserving your rights (including the one to insult me). I live through some of the wars and scenarios I described to you. One of my advance degrees is in analyzing conflicts. My opinions are based in education (beyond Wikipedia, Cable, newspapers, magazines,or your local cafe). There are at 3 conflicts in three different countries were through campaigns similar to those described above the terrorist extremist were extirpated. All 3 happen n the second half of the 20 century.

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 02:31:27 PM
  more than 2 decades serving some masters whose job is preserving your rights

Could you relay the message that they are not doing a very good job!

Quote from: kate durcal on May 13, 2011, 04:34:34 PM
There is nothing offensive about the truth. I have not use foul language at all, or  belittle anybody, at most I have a few grammatical error and typos.

I'm sorry, but I can't hold my tongue now... what you said to me two nights ago, pretty much insinuating that I was naive because of my age, that was damn belittling given everything I've gone through in my life.  And I know this is my own stupid problem, but I should say that, given what I experienced before I was even 10 years old, that's one of the only things anyone can say to me to set me off.  Claiming I know nothing because I'm young?  Because I'm not jaded?  Because maybe I'm hopeful for a better future?

Yes, I've been on a downhill slide ever since you said that to me, crying no less than six hours because of it.  It opened up all of the horrors of my past--all the things that spawned more suicide attempts than I can count--and left me unable to look at anything right now without breaking down.

Okay, you have a whole lot of advanced degrees, but what do you know about getting smashed around with the buckle end of a belt because you left a spot of toothpaste in the bathroom sink?  Or cigarette burns because you left a toy out?  Getting locked in a dark room because you looked at the television?  Going two days without meals because you said you were full before cleaning off your plate?  Having a knife waved at you because you were seen talking to another kid?  How about lying to teachers and police so that you wouldn't have to live with the guilt of taking your four siblings' only parents from them while you got to go live with you other parent?

Sure, call me naive.  Say I know nothing.  But you know what?  I do know a thing or two about violence, and my experiences left me dead set against violence and against killing.  Instead of becoming jaded, I embraced a philosophy of love that I sadly couldn't extend to my own self until just recently.

So next time you want to insinuate that someone is too young to know anything, stop and think that maybe they know more than you could ever fathom.


(My part of thread derailment is over... sorry about this)

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 02:31:27 PM
i cannot tell you my exact qualifications without putting myself in danger. Let just say several degrees beyond the usual bachelor, more than 2 decades serving some masters whose job is preserving your rights (including the one to insult me). I live through some of the wars and scenarios I described to you. One of my advance degrees is in analyzing conflicts. My opinions are based in education (beyond Wikipedia, Cable, newspapers, magazines,or your local cafe). There are at 3 conflicts in three different countries were through campaigns similar to those described above the terrorist extremist were extirpated. All 3 happen n the second half of the 20 century.

Odd that you feel hostilities of this nature could end in 2 years then. Furthermore, claiming to be anything over the internet is pointless, especially when it's about something that would supposedly place you in danger. People don't talk about things like that when it's true.... most certainly not on a public forum.

Furthermore, your (subtle) implications on where I get my knowledge is odd considering you have no idea what I do or don't know and do or don't believe. Hint, hint: My age is irrelevant.

I don't see much point in arguing with you though. I called a bluff and I'm not going to back away from it, but arguing with a wall never gets anywhere.

I am deeply sorry about the abuse you suffer as a child. I think the people who abused deserve but the worst punishment. you did nothing wrong but be an innocent child. You have my compassion and empathy
I do cry and pry every day for the innocent children that die everyday from starvation, malnutrition, and dehydration. I think that any child abuse, physical, sexual, or emotional, is an abomination in the eyes of God, and a shame to humanity.
I am sorry and I apologize for my post and for the pain it caused you. I hope you can find some comfort in my sincere words.
Your email touch a raw nerve on me, hence perhaps my abrasive tone. I often heard criticism about how we go about protecting our culture our freedoms and our way of life, most if not all of this criticism a "Monday night quarterback" come from people who are in the comfort of their homes, and who have never experience the conflict or who have a very superficial knowledge of the subject.
Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on May 14, 2011, 03:13:05 PM
I am deeply sorry about the abuse you suffer as a child. I think the people who abused deserve but the worst punishment. you did nothing wrong but be an innocent child. You have my compassion and empathy
I do cry and pry every day for the innocent children that die everyday from starvation, malnutrition, and dehydration. I think that any child abuse, physical, sexual, or emotional, is an abomination in the eyes of God, and a shame to humanity.
I am sorry and I apologize for my post and for the pain it caused you. I hope you can find some comfort in my sincere words.
Your email touch a raw nerve on me, hence perhaps my abrasive tone. I often heard criticism about how we go about protecting our culture our freedoms and our way of life, most if not all of this criticism a "Monday night quarterback" come from people who are in the comfort of their homes, and who have never experience the conflict or who have a very superficial knowledge of the subject.
Kate D

Kate, thank you.  Another part of my philosophy is to forgive and forget.  Ill will only brings everyone down.  So I thank you for your kind words and I accept your apology.  I'm also sorry for how I kind of unleashed in that post of mine.

(And now I'm officially done with thread derailment... for reals this time  :angel: )

Kate, we disagreed in the CRaSH thread, but I'm with you on this. I, too, bore arms to defend free speech, and on the days people use that freedom to defend terrorists or insult me and other warriors, I ask myself why I did it. Hugs, Tracey

Quote from: Tracey on May 14, 2011, 04:26:27 PM
Kate, we disagreed in the CRaSH thread, but I'm with you on this. I, too, bore arms to defend free speech, and on the days people use that freedom to defend terrorists or insult me and other warriors, I ask myself why I did it. Hugs, Tracey

Just out of interest, what free speech threatening foe are we talking about?

First, I must express my gratitude to all for helping keep this thread civil. Emails and blogs take some human elements out the communication equation and thus tend to misinterpretation.

Second, I never post anything that I cannot back up with references, and I do not mean Wikipedia, yet I agree and concede that it is hard sometime to take a leap of faith and trust that what other people claim to be in the in the net is true. However, just like in common life sooner or later the true nature of people shows. I wish I could put my picture and tell you my real name, but I truly cannot. Some evil enemy is hunting me, and I must not reveal my nature and whereabouts. I expect this situation to come to an rend in a year or year and half. Then, I will be able to be less cryptic about my identity and share where I am in my transition.

Third, unless you have seen combat, like Tracy and other in this forum have seen, you just have no idea how traumatic and life changing the whole thing is. In my case, it took the excitement out of many things, it left me constantly aware of my situation to the point that it is debilitating, a hatred for the enemy that does not go away as the faces of those who died in my arms are sear in mind, and the other stuff like bad dreams, etc. Fortunately it left my compassion and empathy capacities intact.I am telling you this because to emphasize the fact that I do not like war, nor I want anybody to go through it. 

Fourth, the issue of what people who fight the wars (in uniform or not) is that basically they do because we (they) swear an oath to defend the Constitution of the USA, and that includes your rights of free speech and the pursuit of happiness among others.

Fifth, I stand by my assertions of how to win an asymmetric war as repugnant as it may be, but I cannot in honesty no say when it is true. Perhaps now we will not, as a high minded society, go down that road, but believe me that if our survival is threatened, we will do what we must.

Finally, I would love to hear other propositions as to how we could win these asymmetric wars

Kate D

Tracey,

Hugs back. "Stay frosty and in the shadows"

Well, my post was just to signify that it's rather useless to claim yourself as an expert; it doesn't give you any more weight in the argument.

While I don't have much reason to doubt your claim of being an expert I don't have much reason to believe it, either. (Other than with how I think your idea is extremely off-base) In the end it's irrelevant. Even if you gave every ounce of evidence of who you are, it's all useless online. I've seen numerous people claim to be people they aren't; and some do incredibly good jobs at being someone else, even to the point of having fake pictures of IDs, phone numbers, email addresses, addresses .etc (typically real documents of someone else).

The two year claim is what I have a fuss with. Again, I'm not making something out of nothing because of the specific "2 years"; it's the claim altogether. Ten years, even, I would doubt. You could be the most informed, most well trained, person in the world and meet me in person to prove it. That claim is ridiculous. This type of a "war" is going to take decades upon decades, not a couple years.

The hatred of people doesn't just go "poof" and go away. Nor will killing all of them do this either; now you're just ticking more and more people off. Going to kill them too? Unless you kill everyone, you're not going to get very far. We're talking ideologies that are being ingrained through the generations of people involved, not a crazy dictator leading a solid army. You don't eliminate an ideology by killing a person. With that said, hugging trees and screaming "make peace" wont do anything either. In the end, killing civilians, even if they had some contact with a non-civilian, is wrong (in the sense of being excessive, brutal, and unnecessary).

I could easily go on for a long time and throughly explain where I stand in all of this, but it's not worth the time, arguing, or risk of anger falling upon me. I would advise people not to assume what my stance is though; I'm not a parrot.

Also:
I don't really see how I insulted you (assuming that it was in reference to me). Other than saying your opinion was ignorant, and doubting your qualifications, I never really insulted you personally. The "bluff" I stand behind is the 2 year plan; not who you are. The "wall" comment was in part about the internet as it makes evidence harder to show, and in part about how strong opinions tend not to change regardless of evidence. My "hint hint" was proactive defense for the good-ol' "You're to young to know" statement that I have received numerous times in the past; usually by people who don't know what they're talking about.

Furthermore:
Having problems with soldiers is illogical. It's like getting mad at a cashier for the price of food. If a soldier does their job and doesn't sway from orders they're doing their job. It's the person who gives the orders that you have problems with. As a note, I don't count "terrorists" (including the rebels in south America and other terrorist-like workings) as soldiers.
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How does what I'm saying relate to Osama?

His death just means more hatred. The intelligence that was gained from killing him is great news, however.
Thus, like everything, it's a double blade; both good and bad.

I base the 2 years time frame in a couple of facts. 3 wars were conducted by 3 countries with vastly inferior capabilities than those we poses, ad they took them 6 -7 years. The fourth country was more capable the war was shorter, although i may confess that the elimination of the extremists was not so complete. So, if we were to bear all of our might with a political resolution, yes I do anticipate 2 years tops. Remember I am not talking about conducting a war like the one we are currently engage, but using a new paradigm.   

To be fair, after re-reading your posts over and over, you don't actually have *extremely* far off ideas as I. However, the two year thing I still disagree with because it's spread and entrenched itself too much. If that was done at the very start of this, preferably even before the great wake up calls on the US / when many key leaders were actually in the US, I would entirely agree.

Now? No. It's just spread too far and affected too many.

Taliban taking control of Afghanistan within a year or two after a withdraw with how things are now? Very, very, likely.

War is never nice, never has, and most certainly never will be. Playing the "moral" route is extremely expensive but it's hard to play the "moral" card in society and politics if you're using "immoral" means; even if reason is there.

I'm stopping here though.

Quote from: Domitia on May 14, 2011, 10:05:08 PM
Well, my post was just to signify that it's rather useless to claim yourself as an expert; it doesn't give you any more weight in the argument.

Also:
I don't really see how I insulted you (assuming that it was in reference to me). Other than saying your opinion was ignorant, and doubting your qualifications, I never really insulted you personally. The "bluff" I stand behind is the 2 year plan; not who you are. The "wall" comment was in part about the internet as it makes evidence harder to show, and in part about how strong opinions tend not to change regardless of evidence. My "hint hint" was proactive defense for the good-ol' "You're to young to know" statement that I have received numerous times in the past; usually by people who don't know what they're talking about.

--------------------

How does what I'm saying relate to Osama?

His death just means more hatred. The intelligence that was gained from killing him is great news, however.
Thus, like everything, it's a double blade; both good and bad.

Let's try to remember friends that this is a discussion, not an argument... Everyone's opinion is valid... No, we may not always agree, but telling someone that they are ignorant and/or don't know what they are talking about is rather rude... There are better ways to express that you disagree with another person's ideal and/or opinion

Again, thank you for your participation

Quote from: Virginia M on May 14, 2011, 11:20:42 PM
Let's try to remember friends that this is a discussion, not an argument... Everyone's opinion is valid... No, we may not always agree, but telling someone that they are ignorant and/or don't know what they are talking about is rather rude... There are better ways to express that you disagree with another person's ideal and/or opinion

Again, thank you for your participation

Ignorant in that they're ignoring factors of something; which I still feel is true, but don't feel like arguing debating over it. Furthermore, argument more along the lines of a debate. You're right, it's not an argument, but it's a little bit more than a discussion in that it has formatting.

Can have an ignorant opinion without being an ignorant person. I don't see how critiquing an opinion, however harshly, is like critiquing a person.

I also never said someone didn't know what they were talking about; that was in reference to another forum.

People can call me out on things. I don't claim to be the all knowing, all powerful, flawless and perfect being; which isn't capable of existing. My opinions, and I myself, have flaws just as anyone else; the biggest being how I use phrases and words, often seeming as if I am insulting a person's capability. It would make sense if you were from other forums I visit, where it's clear such phrases are about the opinion, not person, but no one (I believe) is, so I try to no avail; largely because you need to be harsh, but it's entirely about the discussion at hand, not people at hand. Hence why I've stated that expertise is irrelevant.

The reason I'm leaving is because discussing war is icky. I dislike violence and therefore am leaving to avoid the stir-ups that war-related discussions can cause if you aren't careful. Not to mention, the bad feelings involved of just thinking about it. I could easily discuss what is arrogant about the opinion (again, as in lacking something), if it was about a more mellow topic.

Edit no. 20. I also wouldn't edit a million times if I truly wanted to insult and individual :/

Understandable, but you shouldn't feel like you have to leave... Your opinion is just as valid as everyone else's... I'm just asking everyone to avoid using terms that could be viewed as inflammatory

I don't like war and/or violence either, but that doesn't mean we can't have a peaceful discussion about it... Maybe if enough people can discuss such issues in a civil manor we can bring an end to war by practicing peace... But that's just one of my crazy ideas  :laugh:

Anyway, no bad feelings... I'm not perfect either

Hugs

- Virginia

 :police: Let's avoid getting personal.  This thread is about the death of Bin Laden and how each of us feel about it.  And how we feel about cannot be debated.  It's our feelings.  And if along the way we go off on a tangent, let's keep focus on the fact that each and every one of us is stating an opinion, OUR OPINION.  So please, let's respect that.

Just to clarify things, I never earned a right sleeve combat patch. I served in peacetime. The enemy of free speech at the time was the Soviet Union. Our mantra then was "kill a commie for mommie!" Back to the original topic, I'm still dancing in the street about goat boys death!

Yes, we're so far apart on this that I'll bow out now before I really exercise my freedom of speech that you didn't fight to protect.

As for Bin Laden? What has it changed other than to give the prez a few more popularity points?

Thanks for the reply, young one.

What has it changed

1. He sure is not going to be planning any other attacks
2. He comes from one of the richest families in the world, so that source of money is no more (most important point really)
3. Already stopped several Republicans from entering the Presidential race
4. Critically wounds the Republican 'weak on defense' claims
5. Rough justice perhaps, but some justice nonetheless

Yeah yeah Tekla who gives a ->-bleeped-<- about organized political party politics.  They don't care about people, it's about WINNING for those guys.

Well smart people care, because elections have consequences in democratic societies. The next president is going to be able to name one if not more SC justices, perhaps even replacing Scalia and Kennedy, and turning the constant 5-4 votes the other way.  Think Sotomayor and Kagan would be there if Sara Palin had anything to say about them?

Guess what we in the econmically advanced North live in a Plutocracy, smart people know this. 

But do you even know what that means?  Plutocracy. 

There's some room for movement but we've been bought off with the riches of other countries.  We're all Plutocrats.  I love the democratic spirit that has Trade Agreements with economically poor countries that perpetuate world poverty, they do so because it's what our societies are built on.

So having the nice face of the Democrats makes you sleep better at night? sleep well poor in pocket and poor in soul Plutocrat.

Getting back to the subject at hand

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110517/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_raid (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110517/ap_on_re_us/us_bin_laden_raid)

   ...

By KIMBERLY DOZIER, AP Intelligence Writer – Tue May 17, 7:06 am ET
WASHINGTON – Those who planned the secret mission to get Osama bin Laden in Pakistan knew it was a one-shot deal, and it nearly went terribly wrong.
The U.S. deliberately hid the operation from Pakistan, and predicted that national outrage over the breach of Pakistani sovereignty would make it impossible to try again if the raid on bin Laden's suspected redoubt came up dry.
Once the raiders reached their target, things started to go awry almost immediately, officials briefed on the operation said.
Adding exclusive new details to the account of the assault on bin Laden's hideout, officials described just how the SEAL raiders loudly ditched a foundering helicopter right outside bin Laden's door, ruining the plan for a surprise assault. That forced them to abandon plans to run a squeeze play on bin Laden — simultaneously entering the house stealthily from the roof and the ground floor.
Instead, they busted into the ground floor and began a floor-by-floor storming of the house, working up to the top level where they had assumed bin Laden — if he was in the house — would be.
They were right.

   ...

Is he still dead?  (people in that part of the world have been known to come back after 3 days and such)  Then there really is no more news.  How doesn't matter that much, though the helicopter FU (Again?  Really? remember Iran?) I'm sure is the reason they all look so concerned in the official WH photos of them watching in real time (Just like they show in the movies kids).

Is he still dead?  (people in that part of the world have been known to come back after 3 days and such)

LOL... That was my main concern also  :laugh:

And yeah, what's the deal with the helicopter FUs? You'd think they'd have gotten that one figured out by now