Quote from: About.comPenalties for Failure to Register for the Draft
Men who do not register could be prosecuted and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. In addition, men who fail to register with Selective Service before turning age 26, even if not prosecuted, will become ineligible for:
- Student Financial Aid - including Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.
- U.S. Citizenship - if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.
- Federal Job Training - The Job Training Partnership Act (JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service.
- Federal Jobs - men born after December 31, 1959 must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service.
So yeah, according to U.S. law, I must sign up for the Selective Service because I have male genitalia in my pants. It's not death that I'm afraid of, it's being forced into a male body throughout extensive military training. More or less, if the draft occurs before my surgery, which I doubt it will, my whole life will go down the drain. I would have to shave my head and train until I become "fit" in a body that I don't belong.
So this is where my question comes in:
If I were to sign up for the Selective Service now, at age 18, while still technically male, what would happen after I surgically become female? Is it possible to be removed from the list? If not, what would happen, would I still be listed as male? How could I change this? So many questions...
I am not a lawyer. Lets start with that...
If you can demonstrate that you have GID you will be declared unfit for military duty should you be drafted. (which there is not a real threat of that any time soon)
You do not currently fit the profile for a combat ready soldier. Now if they make it so trans people can serve in the military you could theoreticaly drafted if they were to reinstitute the draft.
But face it that is not likely to happen in this puritanical society.
Relax. Fill out the selective service form and send it in. You will be ok.
Register for it. If you do get called in, and look female, there will probably be a somewhat uncomfortable conversation. After said conversation, they will most likely let you go and change their records.
I wouldn't worry about it though. The chance of getting drafted is relatively small already because 1) the draft is unpopular and 2) they have more volunteers than they can use at this point anyway. I went through a similar dilemma because I registered for the draft right after 9/11 happened and was certainly nervous about that - they never called me though.
For anyone to be drafted the congress would need to pass a law calling for the draft and the president would have to sign it into law. There would be major debate around the country and it would be the only thing on the news.
You will know if they institute a draft.
Also the way the draft works is a lottery. Just because you register does not gaurenty that you will be drafted. Your number has to come up for you to be drafted.
Thanks so much for the advice. I'll sign up whenever I get a chance. :)
I was nervous about registering for the draft way back in 1980 :laugh: But obviously it is more of a formality than a worry because it is very unlikely that there would actually be a draft any time soon... The Gov't likes to keep that option open though just in case some real serious stuff hits the fan... A draft would pretty much be a last resort after they've called up as many veterans and reservists as possible
Quote from: cynthialee on May 14, 2011, 11:13:48 AM
I am not a lawyer. Lets start with that...
Me either.
Legally you have to register but the odds of actually being called into service are very, very. very remote since we've become a volunteer army (something we didn't have up through Vietnam).
I'm pretty sure that even if you were drafted, you would have to pass a physical to get in.
I didn't even think about it when I registered. It was easier to just do than to try to fight it now. If the draft gets reinstated and my number is called, I will take action at that time. However, I don't feel I need to worry about this currently. I have more important issues to worry about.
I get the impression that this is more a matter of public indoctrination than any realistic proposal to draft people.
Conscripts don't make very good troops, frankly. Modern warfare doesn't really need them. Certainly not such a mechanised military as the US, or, for that matter, most NATO countries.
But it seems to suit the purposes of some to maintain a state of threat.
America is undefeatable. It is essentially, uninvadable. This is due, in part to its military but mostly because its geography, the diversity of its government, the numbers of beligerent civilians.
In all honesty, if some foreigh state took over control of Washington DC, how many Americans would instantly salute their new overloards and follow whatever?
I don't want to get into any discussion on the purposes of this nonsense. Partly because I doubt many Americans are able, at this time, to seriously look at any evidence, without feeling conspired against, but mainly because this isn't really the sort of forum in which that discussion is relevant.
However, as a non-American, I suggest that it is really just an excercise in enforced enrollment in patrotism. It can do little or no har, but could create problems if you refuse.
In the mean time, have a look at this: http://www.draftregistration.us/ (http://www.draftregistration.us/)
i didn't even register. i was supposed to once i turned 18 according to the laws, and what people wanted me to believe. i'm 19 now, and not registered. i figure, why bother? i have asperger's, expressive receptive language disorder, and then i'm on cross sex hormones transitioning into a female. it seemed pointless for me to bother from the start, and it's obviously pointless now. i'll be getting my name legally changed soon. if you did register, i'm pretty sure there's "consciencious objector." if you ask me, the draft thing is a joke at this point. they have more than enough men and women alike going into this line of work for their own will. if world war 3 ever did strike, they just won't take anyone in our situation. you have to be "in a correct state of mind." what's more, they still don't treat their women as equals. they won't let the women be in the front line of fire ever. last thing is, males are only eligible from 18-25.
When I was 22 and serving in Germany with the US Army, I got a letter from Selective Service reminding me to register! I threw it away. Spacial is right, conscripts make poor soldiers, they don't want to be there.
There can be problems with not registering, especially if you don't legally change your sex for quite some time. Even if you change your sex during the registration period (which, I should point out, is very short), that might not be enough to keep you out of hot water later. I don't know which records the Selective Service System relies upon or how SSS records get updated, but even if you change your sex with the Social Security Administration, do not expect that office to automatically notify the Selective Service System--that's your job. And I don't think the SSA would bother to contact the SSS retroactively. In any event, it is probably safer to register and then sort it out later.
As you noted, if you don't register, then you can run into problems further down the road. You can be denied federal benefits like job training and student loans, not to mention that you can't get a federal job. Some might think that they will never need such benefits, but you might want to keep your options open because you never know which direction your life will take.
@SpaceyGirl--I don't know what to make of your post. Registration has nothing to do with your medical status, your name change, your beliefs, or your in-transition status. By registering, you are not stating that you are fit for duty. You're just registering. The other factors only come up later, if there is a draft and if your name is drawn.
As others have pointed out, a draft seems pretty unlikely because we have a volunteer military at the moment. But you are still legally required to register, and people can and do find obstacles when they don't.
Quote from: Arch on May 14, 2011, 01:34:13 PM
@SpaceyGirl--I don't know what to make of your post. Registration has nothing to do with your medical status, your name change, your beliefs, or your in-transition status. By registering, you are not stating that you are fit for duty. You're just registering. The other factors only come up later, if there is a draft and if your name is drawn.
As others have pointed out, a draft seems pretty unlikely because we have a volunteer military at the moment. But you are still legally required to register, and people can and do find obstacles when they don't.
so i should give my male alias to them? people will distinguish what i'm presenting as and what a birth certificate says? that's why i don't think it's suitable, because it's like an imaginary person in their registry.
Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 14, 2011, 03:58:13 PM
so i should give my male alias to them? people will distinguish what i'm presenting as and what a birth certificate says? that's why i don't think it's suitable, because it's like an imaginary person in their registry.
They will deny you availability for certain forms of federal assistance ( the most important being federal grants). You are no more to them than a number, no harm can possibly be done by registering, especially since you have been diagnosed with GID and it disqualifies you from service.
I am a Vietnam era veteran. I disagree that conscripts make bad warriors. I joined back when the draft was really at the top of inducting conscripts. Those conscripts, like their fathers before them, fought like hell. It depends of the quality of the draftees that makes an army. In our all volunteer army, you need at least a GED to enlist.
In my Navy bootcamp company, we had a lot of people that didn't know how to read, including a high school "Head Boy". He had others do his assignments for him in school! My company commander, the senior of the company chiefs in my battalion, could not believe it. He was held back and sent to the Navy's remedial studies school. These people did the menial work such as compartment cleaning and mess-cooking aboard ship.
Joelene
Quote from: SpaceyGirl on May 14, 2011, 03:58:13 PM
so i should give my male alias to them? people will distinguish what i'm presenting as and what a birth certificate says? that's why i don't think it's suitable, because it's like an imaginary person in their registry.
Hon, your presentation doesn't matter to the Selective Service System. The folks there only care that THEY have you down as male and that you're supposed to register--and face any consequences of not registering. If you are legally male to the federal government, that's all they care about.
Think of it this way. If you file tax returns, rack up Social Security benefits, get a job, and/or apply for a passport (or already have a passport), you do that with your federally legal identity, which is tied to your Social Security number and the identity that the federal government has on record for you. Why should registering with Selective Service be any different? It sucks that your true identity is not recognized, but people have to jump through hoops to get the feds to acknowledge that persona.
BTW, you can usually register online, but I don't know if you can do that after the usual 60-day window has elapsed.
Go ahead and register. America is not currently using the draft. And being transsexual is still grounds for being ineligible for the draft.
These videos will open your eyes to the terrible truth about governments: They are actually predatory corporations. UNITED STATES CORPORATION and THE UNITED KINGDOM CORPORATION. Obama is CEO of this corporation.
Meet Your Strawman! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME7K6P7hlko#)
14th Amendment Citizenship: Citizen or citizen? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4xV4MTnCdc#)
The current military code does not allows transsexuals to serve.Go ahead and register, if they ever call you, just tell them you are transsexual, and off you are.
For the most part, governments are just pomp and circumstance. It costs more money to try to force people to sign up than the benefit they get from it (even if the draft were implemented). Most likely, nothing will happen to you if you don't register. I don't know of anyone who has actually been fined/jailed for violating these types of government mandates. I don't even know of anyone who has even been contacted or notified by the government after violating such mandates.
And for all you ftm's who change your gender before age 25 I believe you have to register as well .... but as said before you will be found medically unfit to serve if drafted
I got the same notice to register when I turned 18. I didn't register because I was in my rebel without a cause, I hate my life, I'm so confused phase...It is now 10 years later, I am currently paying off Federal School loans, I worked on an air force base as a civilian, I just got my Tax return In the mail. I would think if they were going to try and deny me something because I didn't register, they would have done so by now. But as everyone else pointed out, had I realized it then I would have just registered, they are not going to be calling for a draft anytime soon. Just my two cents!
<3 Teagan
All Americans these days are actually 14th Amendment Citizens, this is NOT the same as being an American citizen. Never, ever agree verbally, by behaviour or in writing that you are a United States Citizen. Stating that you are a United States Citizen gives the Federal government jurisdiction over you, and they can do what they like with you. You should always maintain that you are an American Citizen, never let anyone tell you that United States Citizen and American Citizen are just slightly different ways of saying the same thing: they aren't.
All the Western countries are officially bankrupt. America become officially bankrupt in March 1933 and since then the Federal government has run the country under Chapter 11 Bankruptcy; debtors in possession. There are in reality only three groups operating in society these days. (1) Employees, ALL persons aged between 18-65 are employees of the government regardless if they work directly for the government or not. The government works like an employment agency. They lend out their employees to businesses etc and take a cut of each of their employees salary as part of the employment agency fees. They own you and they charge businesses a fee for the use of their property. (2) The second groups are called 'Agents', these are persons involved with law, law enforcement, and everyone who is directly employed by the government. This group's major function is to create, and gather revenue for the state. Police officers are no longer 'Peace officers' they have become 'Policy enforcement officers'. Courts are actively trading as businesses. (3) The third groups consists of 'Wards of State', these Wards include children, the retired, prisoners, and the unemployed.
Ideally you should renounce your government issued passport, driving license and any and all other government issued documentation and paperwork. Possession of ANYTHING that can tie you to the government e.g. social security or any Federal benefit means that you are not free from their jurisdiction and they still have full legal power over you. Beware of creating and/or maintaining anything that could create an 'Adhesion contract' between you and the government.
This all boils down to one thing: You ask absolutely nothing from the government and they ask absolutely nothing from you. They can't ask you to join their military and you can't ask them for any government 'benefits', i.e. social security, Medicare, unemployment benefit, Veterans' benefits, etc or ask they to pay your college, university tuition fees or give you a maintenance loan. Do you know the difference
between 'Legal' and 'Lawful'?
I can't believe that this is still in existence.
Australia has only had conscription for limited periods. Attempting to introduce it during WW1 nearly brought down the Govt, during WW2 only once the Japanese became involved, and then from the Korean War through to 1972. The latter took the form of a ballot, depending on birth date, so not everyone was called up either.
If you don't want to go, there is no way short of a real major national emergency that anyone is going to be drafted. Repeal of don't ask - don't tell is not going to change within your draft-eligible lifetime your draftability if you declare GID. I was drafted in 1968, the worst year in fifty years to be drafted; I mean they were grabbing up draftees into the marines. I had bad feet, we had partied for 36 hours prior to my reporting for examination elevating my blood pressure, and I said I was gay. Surprise!!! I was rejected. What a let down! Not!
I suggest signing up as required, and that will be the last you hear about it. And after all, it is the law. For males. For now.
Susan Kay
Am I missing something - everyone else seems to have thumbs up/thimbs down markers on their screens (not that I'm seeking criticism, just wondered why.)
Quote from: spacial on May 14, 2011, 12:46:39 PM
In all honesty, if some foreign state took over control of Washington DC, <snip>
It would probably be an improvement considering who's in the district of criminals now...
One of the quickest ways to end your military service, under DADT, is to say, "I'm gay!" And all the discussions had in working to overturn DADT never once included transgender people. So if you're trans and you say so, should the draft ever be reinstated, just say so and I'm sure they will be happy to show you the door. Just don't show up dressed like Corporal Klinger.
Quote from: Princess of Cups on May 14, 2011, 10:55:40 PM
All Americans these days are actually 14th Amendment Citizens, this is NOT the same as being an American citizen. Never, ever agree verbally, by behaviour or in writing that you are a United States Citizen. Stating that you are a United States Citizen gives the Federal government jurisdiction over you, and they can do what they like with you. You should always maintain that you are an American Citizen, never let anyone tell you that United States Citizen and American Citizen are just slightly different ways of saying the same thing: they aren't.
All the Western countries are officially bankrupt. America become officially bankrupt in March 1933 and since then the Federal government has run the country under Chapter 11 Bankruptcy; debtors in possession. There are in reality only three groups operating in society these days. (1) Employees, ALL persons aged between 18-65 are employees of the government regardless if they work directly for the government or not. The government works like an employment agency. They lend out their employees to businesses etc and take a cut of each of their employees salary as part of the employment agency fees. They own you and they charge businesses a fee for the use of their property. (2) The second groups are called 'Agents', these are persons involved with law, law enforcement, and everyone who is directly employed by the government. This group's major function is to create, and gather revenue for the state. Police officers are no longer 'Peace officers' they have become 'Policy enforcement officers'. Courts are actively trading as businesses. (3) The third groups consists of 'Wards of State', these Wards include children, the retired, prisoners, and the unemployed.
Ideally you should renounce your government issued passport, driving license and any and all other government issued documentation and paperwork. Possession of ANYTHING that can tie you to the government e.g. social security or any Federal benefit means that you are not free from their jurisdiction and they still have full legal power over you. Beware of creating and/or maintaining anything that could create an 'Adhesion contract' between you and the government.
This all boils down to one thing: You ask absolutely nothing from the government and they ask absolutely nothing from you. They can't ask you to join their military and you can't ask them for any government 'benefits', i.e. social security, Medicare, unemployment benefit, Veterans' benefits, etc or ask they to pay your college, university tuition fees or give you a maintenance loan. Do you know the difference
between 'Legal' and 'Lawful'?
There is no country "America" thus there could not be an "American Citizen," My country is the USA and with all its shortcoming it is my country and the best of the world in all aspects. I am at the service of my country in a mission from G-d, if I die carrying my duties, so be it. Any day is a good day to die for your country.
Kate D
Quote from: kate durcal on May 15, 2011, 06:49:39 AM
There is no country "America" thus there could not be an "American Citizen," My country is the USA and with all its shortcoming it is my country and the best of the world in all aspects. I am at the service of my country in a mission from G-d, if I die carrying my duties, so be it. Any day is a good day to die for your country.
Kate D
Wow. I can't tell whether you're serious, or if this is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. I certainly hope it's the latter. Of course, if this is the way you really feel, then you're the perfect candidate for military service.
Personally, I think whether it's a good day to die for my country or not depends on what they're asking me to die for.
I put myself into that wonderful draft ages ago and nothing has ever come of it. It would take a real war for something like that to even appear again and even then it would just be a last resort. So that really is not a worry. Also has others have said if it comes down to it? You can use the trans defense and skip over the whole thing quite easy.
After all I know there is no chance in hell of me dying for a country that does little/nothing in my defense as a member of the transgender community.
Quote from: VeronikaFTH on May 15, 2011, 08:25:19 AM
Wow. I can't tell whether you're serious, or if this is supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. I certainly hope it's the latter. Of course, if this is the way you really feel, then you're the perfect candidate for military service.
Personally, I think whether it's a good day to die for my country or not depends on what they're asking me to die for.
The oath you take when you sign is to defend the constitution of the USA. When you sign with the Armed Forces you go under a different law system. You have to obey all legal orders given to you. Some of those orders send you in harms way. What most guys die for is in reality for their bodies and or the mission at hand. Of course you can refuse to do so which can lead you to a dishonorable discharge, jail time, and when deserting in the face of the enemy the punishment could be death.
After the fiasco of the Vietnam era draft, service in the forces is voluntary, good thing for moral and for competence. The current registration is used in case of an extreme situation, as posted previously by Susan Kay. I would urge all young men not to break and do register.
In a personal note, I was deadly serious. We are what we as products of our families history and our own experiences. My Mom relatives were murdered by Nazis, my Dad family chased and murdered out of the old country by fascist, just to land in another country which later on get embroiled in another asymmetric war. My uncle machined gunned in an street because of his political writing and view, then comes the guerrilla war. Kidnapping, home invasion, murder, war. Like I said before, I have a bullet hole and night mares to prove to myself that I did not dream all of that s... Lucky me, later on the good G-d send me to the USA who kindly adopt me as a daughter. I was gifted by G-d, and have earned all my degrees and skill. years ago I sign and I did take the oath, and no I am not in uniform, but in some services that means nothing if you catch my drift- So yes, any day is a good day to die for my country. I said that because some of my ancestors did not fight and was corralled in to train wagons like cattle to the slaughter house. You have to fight for what you belie, and I do believe in the constitution of the USA and USA.
Quote from: kate durcal on May 15, 2011, 09:26:33 AM
The oath you take when you sign is to defend the constitution of the USA. When you sign with the Armed Forces you go under a different law system. You have to obey all legal orders given to you. Some of those orders send you in harms way. What most guys die for is in reality for their bodies and or the mission at hand. Of course you can refuse to do so which can lead you to a dishonorable discharge, jail time, and when deserting in the face of the enemy the punishment could be death.
After the fiasco of the Vietnam era draft, service in the forces is voluntary, good thing for moral and for competence. The current registration is used in case of an extreme situation, as posted previously by Susan Kay. I would urge all young men not to break and do register.
In a personal note, I was deadly serious. We are what we as products of our families history and our own experiences. My Mom relatives were murdered by Nazis, my Dad family chased and murdered out of the old country by fascist, just to land in another country which later on get embroiled in another asymmetric war. My uncle machined gunned in an street because of his political writing and view, then comes the guerrilla war. Kidnapping, home invasion, murder, war. Like I said before, I have a bullet hole and night mares to prove to myself that I did not dream all of that s... Lucky me, later on the good G-d send me to the USA who kindly adopt me as a daughter. I was gifted by G-d, and have earned all my degrees and skill. years ago I sign and I did take the oath, and no I am not in uniform, but in some services that means nothing if you catch my drift- So yes, any day is a good day to die for my country. I said that because some of my ancestors did not fight and was corralled in to train wagons like cattle to the slaughter house. You have to fight for what you belie, and I do believe in the constitution of the USA and USA.
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't believe in blind patriotism. I was born in the US, I've lived here my whole life, but whenever I see this kind of "God Bless the USA" rhetoric it really touches a nerve with me.
I would like to point out that blind patriotism like that ran rampant through Nazi Germany, and possibly played a part in the horrible killings of some your ancestors and relatives. Blindly following orders was the excuse all those soldiers gave for the atrocities they committed.
Nobody is perfect, no country is perfect. I'm glad you like the USA, and that you have done well here... But blindly defending this country is a bit narrow-minded IMO.
Quote from: Teagan E. on May 14, 2011, 10:48:09 PM
I got the same notice to register when I turned 18. I didn't register because I was in my rebel without a cause, I hate my life, I'm so confused phase...It is now 10 years later, I am currently paying off Federal School loans, I worked on an air force base as a civilian, I just got my Tax return In the mail.
I don't think it makes a difference to tax returns, but I'm wondering if you slipped through the cracks on the loans and the job? (I know, seems an unlikely coincidence.) I got a gigantic hassle over job training because I hadn't registered (even though I had an exemption letter), and the second time I was at the center, one of the gals was right there in the waiting room, giving the third degree to a middle-aged guy about his never having registered. He apparently had no good reason and no exemption letter from the SSS. They gave him the boot right then and there.
I was thinking, "I'm glad I got my letter," but then they gave me a hassle, too. In private and over the phone. So much of a hassle that I decided it wasn't worth it to out myself to them.
Sign up for the draft. It will take an act of war declared by congress that is only intersted in lining their pockets and throwing the rest of us breadcrumbs (another story and time). By then you can get your name and gender legally changed. Would that not preclude one from being drafted. Just my 2 cents worth.
Quote from: Princess of Cups on May 14, 2011, 10:55:40 PMThere are in reality only three groups operating in society these days. (1) Employees, ALL persons aged between 18-65 are employees of the government regardless if they work directly for the government or not. The government works like an employment agency. They lend out their employees to businesses etc and take a cut of each of their employees salary as part of the employment agency fees. They own you and they charge businesses a fee for the use of their property. (2) The second groups are called 'Agents', these are persons involved with law, law enforcement, and everyone who is directly employed by the government. This group's major function is to create, and gather revenue for the state. Police officers are no longer 'Peace officers' they have become 'Policy enforcement officers'. Courts are actively trading as businesses.
You remind me of this guy:
Quote from: Stefan MolyneuxWhen you look at a map of the world, you are not looking at countries, but farms.
You are allowed certain liberties - limited property ownership, movement rights, freedom of association and occupation - not because your government approves of these rights in principle - since it constantly violates them - but rather because "free range livestock" is so much cheaper to own and so more productive.
It is important to understand the reality of ideologies.
State capitalism, socialism, communism, fascism, democracy - these are all livestock management approaches.
Some work well for long periods - state capitalism - and some work very badly - communism.
They all fail eventually, because it is immoral and irrational to treat human beings as livestock.
The recent growth of "freedom" in China, India and Asia is occurring because the local state farmers have upgraded their livestock management practices. They have recognized that putting the cows in a larger stall provides the rulers more milk and meat.
Rulers have also recognized that if they prevent you from fleeing the farm, you will become depressed, inert and unproductive. A serf is the most productive when he imagines he is free. Thus your rulers must provide you the illusion of freedom in order to harvest you most effectively.
Thus you are "allowed" to leave - but never to real freedom, only to another farm, because the whole world is a farm. They will prevent you from taking a lot of money, they will bury you in endless paperwork, they will restrict your right to work -- but you are "free" to leave. Due to these difficulties, very few people do leave, but the illusion of mobility is maintained. If only 1 out of 1,000 cows escapes, but the illusion of escaping significantly raises the productivity of the remaining 999, it remains a net gain for the farmer.
You are also kept on the farm through licensing. The most productive livestock are the professionals, so the rulers fit them with an electronic dog collar called a "license," which only allows them to practice their trade on their own farm.
To further create the illusion of freedom, in certain farms, the livestock are allowed to choose between a few farmers that the investors present. At best, they are given minor choices in how they are managed. They are never given the choice to shut down the farm, and be truly free.
Government schools are indoctrination pens for livestock. They train children to "love" the farm, and to fear true freedom and independence, and to attack anyone who questions the brutal reality of human ownership. Furthermore, they create jobs for the intellectuals that state propaganda so relies on.
The ridiculous contradictions of statism -- like religion -- can only be sustained through endless propaganda inflicted upon helpless children.
The idea that democracy and some sort of "social contract" justifies the brutal exercise of violent power over billions is patently ridiculous.
Is that it? That is the best you or him can offer? An analogy to farms, and pseudo intellectual childless view of the world; it remind me of the pot-head psychology of the sixties
Quote from: kate durcal on May 15, 2011, 05:46:43 PM
Is that it? That is the best you or him can offer? An analogy to farms, and pseudo intellectual childless view of the world
So, you are arguing that it is perfectly justified for men in costume (police and other government agencies) to forcibly take my property away from me (through taxes) to pay for activities that I disagree with?
You may call it pseudo intellectual, but I call it slavery. And so does Stefan Molyneux. That's why I never signed up for selective service. Nobody is going to threaten me (also known as "terrorism") to force me to do something that I don't want to do.
So, you are arguing that it is perfectly justified for men in costume (police and other government agencies) to forcibly take my property away from me (through taxes) to pay for activities that I disagree with?
Why yes. Since you have the option to leave at any time, you choose to enter into a social contract by remaining. No one in society ever gets everything they want - something they should have learned in that thing called 'a family' - but we agree to some form (for us, majority) of decision criteria. Your staying is both an active as well as a tacit acknowledgement of that.
Quote from: tekla on May 15, 2011, 10:55:54 PMSince you have the option to leave at any time, you choose to enter into a social contract by remaining.
I choose nothing. I stay on this land because I can. I have no obligation to social contract. If they believe I do not have the right to choose my location of residence without agreeing to social contract, they are free to try to remove me.
The idea that my choosing to set up home in the environment of my choice somehow obligates me to follow arbitrary social rules is absolutely ludicrous.
Quote from: cynthialee on May 14, 2011, 11:13:48 AM
But face it that is not likely to happen in this puritanical society.
Relax. Fill out the selective service form and send it in. You will be ok.
First, I agree 100% about registering. You lose out on a lot of things if they decide you're male and but not registered. It's not worth it, particularly for someone who would just be wasting the military's time if they ever called you up (they'd probably ask you to verify that you really have GID and aren't just faking it to get out, but that would likely be a very short conversation before you could go back on with your life).
As for puritanical government, weren't the puritans the ones who did bundling? :) (that's the practice of allowing the unmarried couple sleep together in one bed in the parent's house, so that at least they would know who the father was and he couldn't easily deny it! It was practiced by some puritans in rural areas)
hhhmmmm souonds like a great idea for some entertainment!!! Once i get better I am going to go down to the army recruiting center and tell them that I want to join the ARMY, and just see the changes they go through!!! lol! Better yet, I think ill go and try to join the Marines, that might be even more entertaining!!! lol
VeryGnawty, I am afraid that Tekla is correct. When you accepted your Social Security number you entered into a contract with the Federal government and VOLUNTARILY agreed to be bound by them and their statutes and regulations etc.
The Federal government was only seeking to contract with you when it informed you of your SS number. You could have rejected that number and thus refused to contract with the government. However, you and millions like you were under the false belief that you had to possess a SS number to be able to work: you don't! The government tricks you into contracting with them, then if you make a fuss about this, the government likes to turn around and state that you voluntarily entered into a contract with them, and here is the thing you DID voluntarily enter in a contract with them. They will say that nobody forced you to accept the SS No that THEY issued you. You were free to reject the offer to contract.* Forced contracting is illegal, nobody can force you to contract with them. What the government does is it makes you a contract offer(in the guise of accepting an SS number) you don't realise that this is an offer to contract and you believe that you need said number to work legally so you do nothing. You don't reject the SS number within the legally approved period of time and the government then claims that you have agreed to the contract by tacit acquiescence.
Many people seem to believe that if you don't sign anything then you haven't entered into a contract. However, contracts can be assumed to exist between parties if you verbally agree(in front of of people who could be called as witnesses) and by behaviour.
When your credit card company sends you a letter stating that they are going to be increasing the interest rate on your card, or increasing your credit limit, or the minimum amount that you must repay each month. Many people just throw this letter in the bin. To change the terms & conditions between contracting parties, the party that wishes to make the changes must 'notice' the other party(ies). That 'letter' from the CC company was actually a notice. you have been noticed. If you do nothing about this notice them you will be judged (in court) to have voluntarily agreed to the new contract and there will be nothing you can do about it afterwards. Of course in the case of a CC company you can either pay off the balance owed or switch your balance to another CC company of your choice.
You can renounce your current 14th Amendment status by issuing a Notice of Understanding and Intent and a Claim of Right.** This document should state - with a great deal else - that your contract with the government created by your birth certificate and further strengthened by your accepting of their SS number is void ab initio due to their failure to fully disclose.
Anyone interested in learning much more about all this should google: Rob:Menard, fmotl, Freeman on the Land. Look up and watch on YouTube and Google Videos Rob:Menard's two excellent films: Bursting the Bubbles of Government Deception, and The Magnificent Deception.
* There is an old maxim in law which states: Let he who would be deceived be deceived. In other words if some other party takes advantage of your ignorance of the law then the law will do nothing about it. The law takes the view that everyone knows the law so no one can claim ignorance when it comes to legal dealings. This knowledge of the law that Judges assume was true when there where only four laws: (1) Do not physically harm anyone. (2) Do not steal from or deprive anyone of their property. (3) Do not damage anyone's property. (4) Do not employ mischief(fraud) in your contracts. Today there are millions or laws, statutes, Acts, by-laws, ordinances etc so ignorance of the law today is commonplace. Always remember that the government is a predatory corporation that seeks at all times to wring, money, property and other assets from the public. The government makes the Mafia look like rank, bungling, ineffectual amateurs. The government is running one huge protection racket and Ponzi scheme.
** Must be notarised by a Notary.
I did not read the whole topic (concentration level is pretty low at the moment), but did I hear, uh, read well? Are the US forcing you to subscribe to the military in case they need you? And BECAUSE you're male on top of that? I honestly hope I am mistaken. This would be unfair, against the ethics and sexist. I know it's bad to ask about things that have already been discussed, but I'm having trouble reading much text right now.
It's not just SS# and the US. It's all governments and societies and civilizations through all time as best as we can ascertain. It's nothing new, it's the fricking Code of Hammurabi. (1700 BCE, and that's not even the oldest, its just the oldest we have in complete written form.) There has never been this 'perfectly free' society where you as a single entity are the only controlling force in the universe. It's always been a matter of give and take, survival odds are much better in a society than in a state of nature. But if you want to live there on Ron Paul Island in the Land Of Rand, be my guest. Many deluded people are in jail because they somehow came up with the nonsense that if they just think the Federal (or local, or state) Government doesn't have any power over them then the government is powerless to act. It never was that way.
Quote from: tekla on May 16, 2011, 06:00:17 PM
It's not just SS# and the US. It's all governments and societies and civilizations through all time as best as we can ascertain. It's nothing new, it's the fricking Code of Hammurabi. (1700 BCE, and that's not even the oldest, its just the oldest we have in complete written form.) There has never been this 'perfectly free' society where you as a single entity are the only controlling force in the universe. It's always been a matter of give and take, survival odds are much better in a society than in a state of nature. But if you want to live there on Ron Paul Island in the Land Of Rand, be my guest. Many deluded people are in jail because they somehow came up with the nonsense that if they just think the Federal (or local, or state) Government doesn't have any power over them then the government is powerless to act. It never was that way.
I agree that it is not just America that does this it happens in all countries, the western countries especially as they are all bankrupt. When you were born your parents registered your birth. By doing so they unknowingly legally abandoned you and the government then stepped in an claimed you as 'salvage'. When you register anything you legally transfer legal title to whomever accepts the registration. The government accepted your registration and thus has legal title (full and complete ownership) to you.* Your parents had equitable title -or use title - until your were 18. You have only use title over your own body. The government literally owns you. It is the same when you register your car, you give over legal title(full ownership) to the government when they accept the registration. The government now owns your car, they let you drive it, and pay for all the petrol, and all the maintenance, but be assured you are not the owner, you are the registered keeper.** That is why they can impound your car and crush it, and why you are liable to traffic fines because they own 'your' car and they fine you when they don't like how you are treating their property.
Getting back to birth registration, because the government owns your child or children they can and will take them from you - their babysitters, and primary caregivers - if they don't like what you are telling your children. Remember the real reason for the Waco Siege? The government didn't like what Koresh was telling their property. Koresh was telling them social, religious and political truths that the government didn't want their property to know about. So they sent in the 'agents' to put a stop to this and then spun the media a tale that Koresh was a highly dangerous religious fanatic who was planning something and he was an evil Svengali figure with complete power over the women and children in his compound.
I realise how all this must read and sound. It seems pure tin-foil hat stuff but I assure you it is all true. Devour anything by Rob:Menard, and Jordan Maxwell. Mary Elizabeth:Croft and Irene:Gravenhorst.
Your name .why is it all in CAPS who is your name (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PNX1oURDsc#)
* That is why they can demand that your child be vaccinated and why they can make vaccinations mandatory: they own your body. When you own something you can treat in whatever way you like.
** Look this up in your vehicle documentation. Also google Jordan Maxwell.
What Is A Freeman On The Land (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PDijIY8dNg#)
Quote from: Princess of Cups on May 16, 2011, 06:31:36 PM
I agree that it is not just America that does this it happens in all countries, the western countries especially as they are all bankrupt. When you were born your parents registered your birth. By doing so they unknowingly legally abandoned you and the government then stepped in an claimed you as 'salvage'. When you register anything you legally transfer legal title to whomever accepts the registration. The government accepted your registration and thus has legal title (full and complete ownership) to you.* Your parents had equitable title -or use title - until your were 18. You have only use title over your own body. The government literally owns you. It is the same when you register your car, you give over legal title(full ownership) to the government when they accept the registration. The government now owns your car, they let you drive it, and pay for all the petrol, and all the maintenance, but be assured you are not the owner, you are the registered keeper.** That is why they can impound your car and crush it, and why you are liable to traffic fines because they own 'your' car and they fine you when they don't like how you are treating their property.
Getting back to birth registration, because the government owns your child or children they can and will take them from you - their babysitters, and primary caregivers - if they don't like what you are telling your children. Remember the real reason for the Waco Siege? The government didn't like what Koresh was telling their property. Koresh was telling them social, religious and political truths that the government didn't want their property to know about. So they sent in the 'agents' to put a stop to this and then spun the media a tale that Koresh was a highly dangerous religious fanatic who was planning something and he was an evil Svengali figure with complete power over the women and children in his compound.
I realise how all this must read and sound. It seems pure tin-foil hat stuff but I assure you it is all true. Devour anything by Rob:Menard, and Jordan Maxwell. Mary Elizabeth:Croft and Irene:Gravenhorst.
Your name .why is it all in CAPS who is your name (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PNX1oURDsc#)
* That is why they can demand that your child be vaccinated and why they can make vaccinations mandatory: they own your body. When you own something you can treat in whatever way you like.
** Look this up in your vehicle documentation. Also google Jordan Maxwell.
What Is A Freeman On The Land (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PDijIY8dNg#)
im sorry, but thats whacked!
So unhappy and unsatisfied with the western countries, and knowing you cannot change such a fundamental operating systems, then you are welcome to go to the workers paradise of China, Vietnam, or Cuba, or for more freedom there are couple of very free African kingdoms, better yet go to an Arab country and claim your virgins, other options exists
Some of the discussion on this thread seems similar to the Sovereign Citizens movement. I'd suggest reading the materials at some of the anti-hate organizations (ADL, SPLC).
As for renouncing US citizenship, the US State Department does not recognize any renouncement of citizenship (or variation that would exempt you from some laws, such as some state or local laws, including the draft) that occurs while you are on US soil. You might or might not be right, but the legal system won't recognize you as anything but a US citizen (which they see as 100% Equivilent to "American Citizen"). There's lots of people in jail because they thought they didn't have to pay income tax (being a sovereign or "American" citizen was cited by many)... Maybe the government is wrong - but you'll lose fighting them.
I'd advise anyone that believes they may have special status (other than citizenship) under the 14th amendment to talk to a lawyer one-on-one (make sure they are certified to actually practice law in your jurisdiction, not just had a legal degree or worked one time as a lawyer).
As for having a social security number, you do need to have one to work, get almost any benefits, be claimed as a dependent, receive money through nearly any source, do most banking, etc. But it doesn't make your responsibilities more or less than if you didn't have one. You don't get the choice to accept US citizenship in the US. You have it if you are born here and don't renounce it (properly, by going to another country and doing it there) or have a situation such as dual-citizenship as as minor (there are some ways to lose citizenship there). But otherwise, whether you agree with the government or not, you're bound by their rules. Your consent is not legally required.
Quote from: superkitty036 on May 16, 2011, 07:14:48 PM
im sorry, but thats whacked!
Hey Kitty,
Good to see you! I thought with your grade 3 glioblasotma you were a goner.How was the surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation? How much they took? where it was located? You have to fill us girl! Sorry if I am hijacking the thread but it is sure good to see you. Perhaps you can start a new thread on your progress
Kate D
Quote from: Princess of Cups on May 16, 2011, 05:17:48 PM
VeryGnawty, I am afraid that Tekla is correct. When you accepted your Social Security number you entered into a contract with the Federal government and VOLUNTARILY agreed to be bound by them and their statutes and regulations etc.
Not all of these regulations were properly explained from the outset. Therefore, I declare my contract with the federal government (and any related organizations) void as laid out in the instructions of VeryGnawty's Manual of Full Disclosure v2.0
VeryGnawty's Manual of Full Disclosure v2.0 takes precedence over all other documents. It says so in the first line of the manual. And I quote, "All other parties previously or heretofore to be mentioned or not by this document agree to the guidelines of this document under the condition that they ever have, have sought, or engaged in any form of communication be it verbal or nonverbal with the entity known as VeryGnawty."
Line 2: Ignorance of, or failure to aknowledge, Manual of Full Disclosure does not exempt one from the guidelines of Manual of Full Disclosure.
So you see, the fact that the government even wanted a contract with me to begin with is proof enough that they have already violated a contract that they already had with me as laid out by VeryGnawty's Manual of Full Disclosure.
I have only hinted at how you can become a Freeman-on-the-land *because what I have presented thus far is mind-blowing and it is foolish to introduce too much information too early. People will almost instinctively want to reject this information as it undermines everything that the government has filled your heads with since first grade, and what your parents, other loved ones and the media have told you your entire life. What you should do is mull over all the information so far presented and let all the doubts, all the disbelief, all the 'no the government is not like that really' and 'this is like something from those Matrix films' come to the surface. You can run away from this all you want but sooner or later everything will click into place in your mind. One day the realisation 'oh my God it is really is true' will pop into your head. Suddenly everything about politics, government, banking and finance will make sense. You will be able to predict future political and social events to the astonishment of your friends and family because you now know how society works, and the true motivations of the politicians and business elite.
* Freeman-on-the-land is non gender specific so we don't need to be afraid of this title.
Quote from: Corey on May 14, 2011, 11:02:10 AM
So this is where my question comes in:
If I were to sign up for the Selective Service now, at age 18, while still technically male, what would happen after I surgically become female? Is it possible to be removed from the list? If not, what would happen, would I still be listed as male? How could I change this? So many questions...
When and if they call you, you tell them you had SRS and that you are a transsexual, you show them you modified birth certificate, and because the military law does not allow transsexuals to serve, they will have to let you go. I am sorry your thread went south; please do not listen to the wacky postings by fringe elements
Love,
Kate D
Quote from: kate durcal on May 16, 2011, 07:25:02 PM
Hey Kitty,
Good to see you! I thought with your grade 3 glioblasotma you were a goner.How was the surgery, chemotherapy, and radiation? How much they took? where it was located? You have to fill us girl! Sorry if I am hijacking the thread but it is sure good to see you. Perhaps you can start a new thread on your progress
Kate D
i did
I wanna kill kill kill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NzFJxX8yoY#ws)
You can get anything you want, at Alices Restaurant!
Excepting Alice.
I've got great news! I just put this whole thread through the universal translator, here's what it said: "Corey, fill out your selective service paperwork, send it off, and forget about it. You'll never hear from them again. You're not a barnyard animal, slave, indentured servant, or a rake, like you've been hearing. You're a wonderful person with your whole life in front of you, go enjoy it."
DITTO