Check this out. While I'm all for new research and whatnot.. I don't think I'd classify as anywhere near autistic. I had lots of boys and girl friends as a kid.. communicated with them all well. Gender identity doubfully arose from an inability to communicate for me. :P
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/224443.php (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/224443.php)
thanks Tad for posting this link! I have a young friend with Asperger who considers himself trans-man.
Him and his parents will find this very interesting.
That's actually very interesting. The passage almost sounds like they're trying to make the FTM's "disorder" seem to be caused by other things. Almost like a write off, but maybe that was just the way I read the passage.
I find that I actually befriend girls a lot easier then I do males. I tend to over think that males might notice that I am not making all the same gestures, or I might miss a cue, or something and see through me. Just a general fear of how men will look at me more so then anyone else, because they are the ones I most want to blend in with. But I've come to notice, after growing more and more over the years, is that men don't even care half the time. Nor do they pay enough attention.
It seems weird to say I have male like interested because of autistic traits. It could be true, but the evidence doesn't align in most of the people I've met before.
They are totally trying to pass it off as other disorders in this research. In general research isn't sure what causes FTM transexuality as much as they are sure about mtf's.. the field on ftm's cause is considered pretty much empty. Anyhow.. they are suggesting that people with autistic traits deal try and cope and learn skills that autistic people would learn, and see if that changes their gender identity once they start learning to socialize better? Really, this totally makes sense to me for some 'trans' people. If it can filter out some of the people who would otherwise consider themselves transexual.. but figure out another method of living life that works for them and lets them be happy through treating their autism.. all the power to them! But if they start saying all ftm's must be autistic and therefore trying to treat all as such. I'd be pissed.
Correlation is not the same as causation. It irks the heck out of me that people draw a causal link where the only evidence is "some" correlation.
Secondly, even if there's a causal link between autistic symptoms and being a trans man, there's the chicken and the egg question.
It is quite possible we display autistic symptoms, such as difficulty communicating, because we're uncomfortable in our own bodies, in which case the causal link would be the opposite of what the article suggests.
Quote from: Miniar on May 18, 2011, 04:58:00 AM
Correlation is not the same as causation. It irks the heck out of me that people draw a causal link where the only evidence is "some" correlation.
Secondly, even if there's a causal link between autistic symptoms and being a trans man, there's the chicken and the egg question.
It is quite possible we display autistic symptoms, such as difficulty communicating, because we're uncomfortable in our own bodies, in which case the causal link would be the opposite of what the article suggests.
This ^
Also, it seems like the article is saying the reason for transition is just so they can socialize with males as a male, basically just because they don't have the same interests/perspective/whatever as females. But transitioning is way more than just "fitting in," it's about being comfortable with your own body and being treated as the gender that you identify as. Even if autistic females wanted to fit in, and have socializing be easier, they wouldn't go through with transition unless they actually were trans, because you would have to be completely insane to make that many physical changes to your body if you didn't actually identify as male. No matter how bad your social awkwardness was, it totally wouldn't be worth it to fix that if you had to get a completely masculinized body to do so (I mean, if you actually identified as female).
Meh, one of the few trans males I know personally.. went through surgery etc... only to come out years later and say that he didn't identify as male, but as female and was now detransitioning.
There are disorders that present as GID in making one think they identify as something else.. only to find that once the disorder is sorted out.. that there is no longer any cross identification. Schizophrenia is one example.
Not that has anything to do with this article.. but more at the comment saying only people who are really trans transition.
wow, thanks for posting this.
The research itself is very interesting, but I would join the others in saying that correlation definitely cannot be interpreted as causation.
This lady, Rebecca Jones, seems to be making this grave error by putting a causality interpretation on her results. This is particularly serious when one has a small sample size. (Generally speaking I would be extremely suspicious if the sample size is anywhere under 100 due to statistical problems.)
I checked their paper summary, and the total sample size for transmen is 61, bio males 76, individuals with Asperger Syndrome 125. It is also unclear how the sample selection was carried out. I would therefore be very reluctant to put any causality interpretation on the results.
Another plausible explanation that would fit their results perfectly would be for example, that ftm individuals with gender dysphoria may also have other anomalies in their brain structure. So the anomaly "causing" gender dysphoria could also be "causing" an increase in the likelihood of Asperger Syndrome simultaneously.
Thus Asperger Syndrome does not cause gender dysphoria, but is associated with it; just as sore throat and blocked nose are related in a flu case, but sore throat does not cause a blocked nose, but some other root cause is causing both of the symptoms.
By the way if anyone has access to the full article, I would be very interested. Here is the sample summary I found: http://www.springerlink.com/content/e87737556t5jg7k0/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/e87737556t5jg7k0/)
odd that these articles are springing up everywhere, just about a month ago i was talking about me having all these social awkwardness odd mannerisms etc etc and my therapist agreed with me that i should go to some kind of specialist some day to see if i actually get a diagnosis. i took the autism spectrum quotient test online, scored 40. the lowest apparently in the single digits - aspergers or other high functioning scores 32 to 38 and extreme is 50. printed it out and showed her and it pretty much confirmed everything we talked about. i wondered if i had autism all along for the last year or so, when it started being talked about all the time on tv. it was like "i did that as a kid....and that.....that too......i still do all those things!" it's not literally a diagnosis though so i should go find someone to see about this when i have the transportation and money.
i like that people did this kind of research except the article is worded all wrong, calling us girls who think we're guys. that we should get further therapy to be talked out of transitioning pretty much. kind of sounds like they want to diagnose people like me with some new form of autism and ignore the G.I.D. really bugs me that one of the "researchers" is a trans woman. really? there's no way a fellow trans person would stand by this. i don't think anyone who's really any kind of expert on G.I.D issues would make this kind of claim.
heh heh anyone else reminded of x-men, the last stand? stand in line for the cure.
Annoying and downright offensive is what I call stuff like that.
I was diagnosed with a form of childhood autism when I was just a few years old, and later I was diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome when I was 18.
When I decided to transition it was straight out of one of my deepest phases of denial and therefore I was trying to be a girl at that time to the extreme, but I NEVER thought transition was going to give me an easier time when it comes to my AS related problems. I actually thought, and still think, that my life as a male will actually be HARDER in that regard, but that wasn't going to stop me. My brain really is trying to operate a male body and male functions that just aren't there, and that was enough to bring me to the edge of suicide. To me, that's all it is about. I do feel more comfortable presenting as male, and I do relate better to other males, but the driving factor is not getting away from social troubles in any way or form - it is the internal torture of constantly subconsciously counting myself naturally as a guy and feeling completely crap knowing that it's not the physical reality, not to mention how I expect my body to be male and have extreme body dysphoria.
Despite all that, my family still thinks that my "transness" is a mindtrick I'm doing on myself because of AS. Aspies are known for having "special interests" that they can immerse themselves with and become extreme experts in their field of interest, and that's what my family thinks I've done. Thing is, the topic of transsexualism is something I stayed away from like the plague for most of my life, because I was ashamed to be "like that" and wanted it all to go away. That's NOT the way a "special interest" looks.
The mental healthcare on the other hand have treated me very differently from my family. They know I'm diagnosed with AS but that has never been an issue to them. I know that some psychologists actually prefer administering HRT to transsexuals with Asperger Syndrome for the exact reason that we don't care as much about gender roles as neurotypical("normal") people, and therefore supposedly have a higher rate of "success" at becoming happy with transition. And that's the opposite of what they say in that article where they think AS transsexuals would want to transition with gender roles as their reason.
People with Asperger Syndrome are not stupid, but the article makes it sound as if they can't make responsible desicions for themselves. If the person does not already have an AS diagnose but shows AS symptoms I'd agree that it's a good idea to inform the transsexual about it just to indeed let him/her make a more informed desicion. Because in case they DO have AS, and as AS can't be treated, they have to realize that it will stay with them even after transition(maybe relieved a bit due to better confidence and more congruity with their body, but still stay), BUT it should not be treated as a causation. That's what's extremely offensive. They spit on the true reality of the torture that it is to be trans.
Wraith's right.
My daughter's an aspie.
She's universally considered very intelligent and capable, even if she has her aspie related problems.
If given "all" the information on a subject, I trust her to make an informed, responsible decision that is Right for her.
QuoteCorrelation is not the same as causation. It irks the heck out of me that people draw a causal link where the only evidence is "some" correlation.
Secondly, even if there's a causal link between autistic symptoms and being a trans man, there's the chicken and the egg question.
It is quite possible we display autistic symptoms, such as difficulty communicating, because we're uncomfortable in our own bodies, in which case the causal link would be the opposite of what the article suggests.
Totally.
I personally did and often still do have poor social skills, not unlike many other guys in my family.
Also felt like the only weird apple on the tree.
I would be interested in knowing which symptoms the FTMs in this study had.
From reading the article below on autism, poor social skills is about the only thing I can relate to at all.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/autism/DS00348/DSECTION=symptoms (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/autism/DS00348/DSECTION=symptoms)
Don't think you guys have a lock on autism. I've seen it in many MTF friends, ones I know very well. There's no doubt in my mind those traits are much more prevalent in TSs than the general public.
One friend has an Asperger's MTF child. And it was this that first caused me to look at those traits in her (our friend) as well as other friends. The traits seem to be there in many of them. Maybe I'm there too.
From what I understand, autism is usually accompanied with higher intelligence. I don't personally know one "lower intelligence" TS.
More study is coming, I'm sure.
I've got Asperger's Syndrome, and I'm worried that the psychologists and such will "explain away" my trans feelings as being results of my AS, or something, and therefore deny me any help at all. I know I won't magically become socially competent, smart and neurotypical by transitioning. I will still be me, only with a body that matches my internal image of myself. I don't care much about gender roles, none of the people with AS in my school do.
I think it's just society's stupid way of blaming transsexuality or ->-bleeped-<- on something else. Funny how they think FTM's have autism and MTF's have ->-bleeped-<-.
I don't have any damn disease or symptom or anything like that, I was never even diagnosed with GID. I think it's all crap. We shouldn't be diagnosed with any type of disease. It's offensive as hell.