Kia Ora,
::) All some of us[well the vast majority of us I would think] want from society is to be recognised, as our affirmed gender with or without surgery, and in most cases this "affirmed gender"would be either male or female-opposite to ones birth sex..."Transitioning"...
But what of those who sit on the gender fence, where do they stand? Those who stay in the transit lounge so to speak...
This question is for those queer folk who don't identify as male nor female or who identify as both ... What sort of recognition if any do you want? And do you think society's ready to or will ever fully embrace your identity ?
BTW by queer folk I mean = Beyond or deviating from the usual or expected
Metta Zenda :)
I love your subject line, and I'm looking forward to seeing the responses. I'm male all the way, but I love reading about the folks who don't identify in such a binary way.
Kia Ora Arch,
::) I find it fascinating, I was blown away when I first came across people who saw themselves as either genderless or androgynous...Society will often label people as they see fit...If one looks like an X they will normally call one X...
However as all M2F & F2M "transitioners" know, correct pronouns are very important and these pronouns don't differ from the "norm"...
Metta Zenda :)
Well, I don't see it as a transit lounge between places or a fence between two gardens or a place to be stuck. To see at as this dry, arid, inbetweeny place between the two poles of gender is to not understand, and to undermine the androgyne experience.
It's an open journey of self discovery over rocky terrain, shady bowers and tinkling streams. Although I'd like recognition from big, airless corporations and governments and such, all I am looking for is self-recognition, the feeling of integrity and authenticity - and if those around me can spot that too, all the better.
In my imagination, there's no transit lounge - the space between the little towns of Male and Female is more like the Amazon basin :). Everywhere is a worthwhile destination.
I'm not really in a transit lounge, for me it's more like riding a pendulum across the divide - I feel more masculine some days, others I want to be able to express my feminine side more, although I'd much rather do that with a male body - didn't work with a female one :P
It's taken me a long time to get to this place, where I can know what I am; accept that while my body's male, I don't really ID as such in the usual, binary sense, and as long as I get to be me in peace, that's all I really ask. I've wasted too much of my time worrying about the perception of others - it'd be nice if it wasn't so complicated trying to explain to others, but until society stops thinking in binary we're SOL on that one.
I LOVE the replies you've gotten so far-- poetry! The imagery is wonderful.
I do love the subject line but no transit lounge for me either. Not even any shapeshifting. I yam what I yam.
I'm female bodied but not too obviously so. I get Sir'd a lot and that's fine. I get Ma'am'd sometimes and that's fine. I get a lot of Uhh's, and that's fine too. I wish we had commonly used gender neutral pronouns and titles to remove some of people's discomfort but I like being in the gray zone; it's who I am.
I really confuse people with my half top job. Doc wouldn't take the second breast off when I had my mastectomy and I'm not doing any more surgery, so I'm lopsided and in my own little gray zone there too.
Kia Ora, and thanks for all your responses so far.....
I guess from a Buddhist perspective [on a somewhat deeper level mind you] for some gender diverse people when it comes to "gender identity", their philosophy it would seem is....
"Sabbe Dhamma Nalam Abhinivesaya !" "Nothing Whatsoever Should be Clung To!"
I remember when I was in the androgynous stage of my transition,[I lived there for around 16/18 months on HRT and dressed in male mode-be it somewhat unisexed] and like some of you have already mentioned, at times it could be most entertaining... :icon_geekdance: :icon_evil_laugh: ;)
I'd go into a big department store and the following often happened...[even with my children tagging along-who didn't know of my HRT and gradual metamorphosis], But they seemed to get a real kick out of it though...
The first store assistant "Can I help you sir?" then a while later another assistant[same store] "Can I help you ma'am ?" ...On leaving the store at the check out, the check out assistant "Thank you have a nice day "sir"!" to the first customer..."Have a nice day "Ma'am" !" to the second and when it's my turn "Have a nice day "?" !"...Nothing but a blank smile!
Some people were just to embarrassed to use pronouns for fear of offending me...So in a sense from the cisgender view point, androgynous looking people can be a real pain in the arrrrrrrrrrsssseee ....and cause for much confusion :eusa_wall: and possibly stress especially when it comes to correct pronouns...
However it was when I had to use the public toilets/restrooms now that was a real eye opener...........
::) "The wonderful wacky world of androgyny...Ah... those were the days!" ;)
Metta Zenda :)
I want to be accepted as female without undergoing any surgery.
Quote from: Princess of Hearts on June 04, 2011, 04:47:01 PM
I want to be accepted as female without undergoing any surgery.
I like the TS credo: I am what I say I am.
A point that I might like to draw your attention to when speaking with us fine androgens as a "community"...while you may has gone though "an androgynous appearance" as you crossed from male to female...this is not the same as having an androgyn (or other non binary) identity. There are some of us that might bristle at the suggestion that they are the same.
Many of us here don't "pass" as androgyn and may not have any desire to illicit the "ummmmm" (what are you) reaction in people.
I wish that I lived in a society that accepted me as a valid gender. There are such societies (though almost all are tribal and "old world")
Asking "if the world is ready for me" though? Really? I'm going to try really really hard to take that from a perspective of trying to understand non-binaries but...I mean...I guess I don't know what to do with that question.
Lastly...I do often joke that I sit on the fence in almost all aspects of my life...and I do often describe myself as "being between male and female" because it's quick and easy and gets the point across...but that's not the whole of it. Not by a long shot!
To understand the androgyn identity is the same process as understanding any other identity. Read how they talk to eachother first, learn the "lingo" then ask some questions to find clarity.
QuoteWhat sort of recognition if any do you want? And do you think society's ready to or will ever fully embrace your identity ?
I was going to walk away from this but I can't....
Would you ask any person of any other minority this question?
Zenda,
You are so sweet and you try so very hard to be nice all the time, I am loathe to bring this up with you but perhaps you droped the ball on this one.
OMG WTF?
Kia Ora Sevan,
::) Your contribution is most welcomed...I'm fully aware that what M2Fs & F2Ms go through in regards to the "androgynous" stage of "transition" is not the same as living/ seeing oneself as a "androgyn" full time...
"And what recognition if any do you want ?" A simple enough question...When in public what would you prefer to be known as ? "Sir" "Ma'am" "Sie" "Hir" etc....And do you think society at large will even come to the party ?
There are people in society at present who see themselves as males and females, but they are naturally "androgynous" and I guess could take offence if they were to be addressed as "Sie" or "Hir" ...Or if the incorrect binary pronoun is used...One size [so it would seems] does not fit all...
Abe Lincoln once said in his Gettysburg speech [Well I think it was old Abe]
"You can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time!"
Metta Zenda :)
Kia Ora Cynthia,
::) Again the topic itself is not controversial however some "people" might choose to make it so...I can't force them see the "light" that is the error of their ways...
I just hope this is not the case...And that we can just share opinions without fear of "personal attacks"...But I won't hold my breath......
::) Or perhaps it's just "me" and that I bring out the worst in others >:-) :icon_evil_laugh: ...Oh well S...hit happens! :angel:
Metta Zenda :)
Ok...simple question. True enough. It is a simple question.
Let me then ask you a simple question.
Do you think society will accept transsexual MtFs and FtMs?
What does that even matter? Your here. You exist. You have the right to exist regardless what anyone else might say.
I don't think Cynthia was saying anything inappropriate at all. It's one of those questions that...is something that is often asked (by my parents...even.) when one is uncomfortable. "Do you think society is ready for gays and lesbians to get married?" Um...what should that matter.
I read an article recently that was written by a mother and she was talking about how they've chosen to raise their children with some awareness. Their "father" is transgender (the article didn't specify in what manner..) and so they've raised the children to ask people who come into the home (polietly) what the person identifies as. It was as simple as "Hi, how are you?" to this child.
Would I LOVE it if the whole world worked that way? That strikes me as a silly question. Um...yes! Yes I would like that very much.
Do I see that happening? No. Does that make me sad everytime someone ignores who I say I am? Sometimes even after I've expressed myself verbally about who I am, how I'd like to be address? Yes. That hurts very much. Have I grown thicker skin to it even though I shouldn't really have had to? Yes.
My personal pronoun desired? They're under my picture for reference. :)
Seems I have once again struck a nerve with a few simple lines.
Perhaps if you were to divorce what was said from who said it then what I said might have more weight.
Kia Ora Sevan,
A good question...I would guess, this would depend on whether or not the said individual greatly challenges society's concept of gender...For the most part in many "progressive" Western countries/societies, transsexual people are granted legal recognition, this would indicate society in general in those countries "accepts" transsexual people...
But there are and no doubt always will be pockets of society who refuse to come to the party...
Sadly at times when anger arises it tend to rage blindly with no specific target to attack, everyone or thing is fair game...I'm not the enemy of androgyn people... Just someone whose interested in their plight ...
Metta Zenda :)
Kia Ora Cynthia,
Simple answer to your first post is YES...why not? I can't see anything wrong with asking "harmless" questions...
But I'm at a lose how one could read "controversy" into such "harmless" questions...And I'm "not" directing this at you personally but it's just that you did bring this up...So why do you think this Cynthia ? Why would some find this offensive and take it personally ?
Metta Zenda :)
Cynthia made a good point, it's not the question itself, it's the assumptions that are going with it.
Quote from: Zenda on June 04, 2011, 11:29:08 PM
this would depend on whether or not the said individual greatly challenges society's concept of gender... Just someone whose interested in their plight ...
I for one am not trying to challenge society's concepts of gender, I am just trying to live as honestly and authentically as I can. If that living happens to challenge society, then fine, but they can get on with being challenged by themselves without me. Many androgynes seem more Mr Rogers than Ziggy Stardust. Indeed Mr Roger's quote "One of the greatest gifts you can give anybody is the gift of your honest self" is an integral part of my androgyne plight.
As for pronouns, they really don't bother me. There are commonly three sets of pronouns he/she/they, which don't fit me. The neutral ones are not all that euphonious to my ears so I don't use them. I've come to the conclusion that if they are using a pronoun about me, then it is by definition gender neutral, whether they know it or not. Of course this...
Quote from: Beth Andrea on June 05, 2011, 01:40:28 AM
This is what I offer those who don't "fit" a sir or ma'am intro...
"Hi, my name is (Beth)...what's yours? (or, "...and you are...?")"
... is the best answer, and that is my last point about the androgyne plight.
If you are honest and clear with yourself about who you are, people will refer and think of you as an androgyne whether they have heard of the word/concept before or not. I've actually had more friends tell me that i am not a boy but not a girl, then I've told them.
If there is offence caused, it's not because of the question, it's because of being viewed like exotica.
Quote from: Zenda on June 03, 2011, 11:42:44 PM
What sort of recognition if any do you want? And do you think society's ready to or will ever fully embrace your identity ?
I just want to say that I don't think that there's anything wrong with these questions. I think they are valid and come from a desire to understand. Yeah, you wouldn't ask a person who's an ethnic minority that (probably anyway), but I don't think that people of various ethnic backgrounds have a hard time understanding why someone else looks different (generally speaking). Gender identity is a whole other beast, so I just think that it's better to answer questions honestly than to take issue with the questions themselves (unless the questions are truly offensive, which these really aren't).
Anywho...
As far as recognition goes, I think for me it's more that I want people to let go of things like girl=pink/boy=blue type thinking. Male/Female/otherwise makes no difference in ability, in style, etc. Gender shouldn't be limiting. It shouldn't even be a factor.
As for the second, I think that when people are faced with something different, they are either curious or they fight against it with all their might. So I think that some people are perfectly fine with openly transgender people, whether said people are binary or not, and some aren't. That's a "know your area" situation. It's about appropriate levels of caution. I live in a liberal city where nobody cares what you are. However, said city is in a very conservative state (I mean, we have a creationist museum and they want to build a life size "ark" for god's sake). I would be perfectly comfortable identifying as trans in my city, but there are places in my state where I would absolutely keep that information to myself. On a side note, I don't think that the US is as conservative as certain media try to convince us we are...by that I mean I think some people are convinced that they should be conservative when by their own nature, they probably aren't. I have a cousin who's gay (and they all know, even if they don't talk about it), for example, and while his family won't watch Ellen (Degeneris) because she's a lesbian and they've been told that "the gays" are hell-bound, they would NEVER disown him. Never. They'd bite their own tongues off before they did that. I don't know how well that answers your question, but it's 6 AM and I haven't gone to bed yet. :icon_dizzy:
Zenda,
Why did I think your question might be offensive to others?
Because it was. I got to hear it from the horses mouth. Enough so, that I had to come and see what the fuss was about.
Yes I am gunshy lately over sensitive topics. The last week has cost me at least a small handful of friends due to sensitive topics. And this site has lost a number of good people to them being fed up with arguments.
maybe I should just avoid any topic you post in.
Shape Shifters....sounds like Beings from another universe. Transit Lounge?....Greyhound Bus Station?
This thread started off offensive and remains so.
If you are binary and wish to know more about non-binaries...don't continue to pretend like you know the answer to begin with.
Don't pretend to know you understand it at all, it's offensive.
Don't try to defend your ignorance of non-binaries, it's even more offensive.
I'd personally like to see this thread locked before it breeds anymore ill will between binaries and non-binaries.
It's turned into a no win, everyone will lose something of goodwill towards each other, thread.
Ativan
I came of age in a time and place, and with a group of people, who were challenging almost all aspects of 'societies concepts' from marriage and family, to 'success', to religion and spirituality, to the most basic ideas about the planet we're living on and our place within that web of life. Gender, gender roles, sex and sexuality were just part of it. Didn't think much of 'society' then, and given the years of experience since then, think even less of it now.
Why would I want the endorsement, or approval of those I don't endorse or approve of?
And I've never been much for hanging out in the lounge, that sounds like waiting, and waiting has never been my strong point. But I'm pretty good at wandering, and as Tolkien says "All who wander are not lost." So I wander on, and keep on rambling. And the deeper point Tolkien was making, that not everything is as it appears, is also true, and has much bearing on what's being said here. So I don't know what's happened to all those that were waiting for god, or some higher power, or some great miracle to intervene, but I guess it never came to them, and they continue to wait. And, out on that road that goes ever on I've learned the the more people try to reinforce stereotypes, the less real they become.
I know I've met a lot of people who are like me in one way or the other, perhaps in many ways, but never have I met anyone who is like me in every way. If you treat people like individuals, as opposed to a member of some group or another, then you'll find most of that wrong thinking simply slides by the wayside.
Dirty F@#*ing Hippies Were Right! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKEZoY-TMG4#ws)
Kia Ora and a thank you to those for answering the questions...
::) That's all I was asking...no mountains out of mole hills, just how one views their world from a personal level, I guess in a sense you all have[in your own way] provided this thanks...
However it would seem there will always be those who choose to see themselves as "victims" in society, even when there's no real need for them to...An unfortunate habit that some tend to wear like a badge of honour ...
::) Thanks for all your responses folks... I'm aware of the struggles some of you face in your everyday life and have no wish to make you "feel" any more uncomfortable about yourselves than you already do...
I hope that the lives of those who feel somewhat challenged by some of my posts, will improve, but I guess this will only happen when one stop seeing oneself as the "victim" ...
Thanks again...
Metta Zenda :)
Zenda, I think it's disingenuous to write off people's arguments by labelling them as "victims" just because they're upset or angry as well as disagreeing with you.
My "position": I am basically female somatically but still male anatomically, but/and fairly androgyne (with a strong leaning towards tomboy) in many other respects, as far as I'm concerned. When I responded to your post, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that you were unaware of the array of assumptions built into your questions and statements at the head of this thread, and I can see you're surprised that they've upset some people. I have to say, I felt rather marginalised and patronised by your questions and statements myself, though I did my best to step to one side of that. I'll try and say why.
I think it's quite an assumption to say that "the vast majority of us" here are identified with a fixed gender, or even identified with gender as a concept in the first place; and quite an assumption to say that there's a fence to be sat on (or either side of) or some "destination" that androgyne people should be aiming for other than where they are already.
I felt set outside of some implied "trans norm" by the way your original post was worded. I think it's easy to be upset or angry when one feels threatened, and since I'm already dealing with a certain level of daily hostility from outside the trans community regarding whether I'm an acceptable part of the "vast majority" or not (as a non-straight non-man), it's not surprising that I (or others) might get easily defensive when that kind of language appears to crop up inside our own borders. It felt like a loaded question, and it feels important to unload it. Does this make sense to you? I'd really like to have a clearer idea what it was you were trying to ask under all that.
Tools of the establishment are almost always those that want to join, not those that actually are.
Kia Ora Padma,
::) How one reacts to what I've written is how one "chooses" to react... If I get angry or frustrated it's because of "me" I can't blame others...I don't find anger or frustration to be productive and it's not a pleasant feeling to have...That why I've learnt to control what "I'm" capable of creating...
A victim's mentality is just that, constantly on the look out for someone or something to blame for their predicament ...Where does ones "feelings" come from...outside ?
You have every right to your opinions and your "assumptions"...However if I'm wrong in stating that the vast majority of members here[at Susan's] in the long run wish to be seen and treated as the gender/sex opposite to their birth sex...then I can only apologise for making this assumption...
But I guess some people have a habit of reading more into what actually been said and for what reason is anybody's guess...
We create our own problems and solutions...And it all boils down to how we "choose" to view/see life! And as a Buddhist practitioner of many years Padma, do you feel this is true ?
Have a nice day Padma and I really do mean this...
Metta Zenda :)
WOW! Did you major in 'cop out'? If not you missed your true calling.
And remember, how you react to that is up to you, not up to me.
We only have a certain amount of control over our feelings and what will or will not harm us.
The labeling of anyone as a perpetual victim as soon as they disagree with you is basicaly fighting words. It doesn't matter that you may be right. Saying that they are buying into victim mentality is just empowering that state of mind and seeking to engage it.
The saying stick and stones may break my bones but words may never hurt me, is a lie. Words can and do hurt. As a member of a 'othered' group in society I know yoy have to know this.
This is verging onto something quite different to the subject of the thread now.
Can we try and cool it down a bit, folks? It's getting a little hot in here. :)
Zenda,
I don't believe you had any intent to offend with the original post. However, as we all know, sometimes language used can offend out of ignorance. There are words and phrases about transsexuals that an outsider may use out of ignorance that are very much offensive. For androgynes often accused of sitting on the fence, this phrase can be grating.
If an androgyne came into our forum using language like 'shape shifters <insert equal analogy about fences here>' and asking if society will ever embrace our identity, I can just imagine how well that would go over...
It's a bit much to be able to write it off as 'ignorance' or 'incompetence' so I'm going with the 3rd 'i' word, intentional.
Kia Ora,
::) My humble apologies :icon_bunch:...No offence meant, but I guess some taken... :icon_userfriendly:
I won't attempt to explain why I used those words, all I can say they were not meant to offend...
Perhaps it would be best if a mod removes this thread...Before it causes more unrest...
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Zenda on June 05, 2011, 06:21:57 PM
However if I'm wrong in stating that the vast majority of members here[at Susan's] in the long run wish to be seen and treated as the gender/sex opposite to their birth sex...then I can only apologise for making this assumption...
Hi Zenda,
Firstly talking about what the vast majority thinks, is that really the logic you want to use? :) What the vast majority of people thinks means nothing to me based just on that, having 9 people say one thing doesn't make it more truthful than 1 person saying something else, both can equally be valid, or invalid to me. Plus and very importantly the bigger the number ther greater the divergence, what appears similiar in fact has after a short chat are widely different opinions
Logic aside I think you're simply wrong in your assumption, and here's why:
I was born apparently male sexed (I assume XY), now after much revelation a combination of finding my sexuality (female) and a definable intersexed medical condition, what I have is a birth defect as my sexuality is female. But everything appeared normal. Just as the rest of the building blocks of my female gender was there at birth, but they couldn't see those things, were they there?
My gender isn't the opposte of my sex because my sex was never male. It's my sex that needs changing to match my gender, not the other way round. I'm the case where a Transsexual has a definable intersexed condition, but no intersex syndrome, I get spared the dysphoria of having what appears a male sex organ by the virtue of the size of my birth defect.
The truth is my gender (of which my later sexuality was was there also) was there at birth. My sex was never what it appeared :)
Quote from: Lexia on June 05, 2011, 07:04:15 PM
Hi Zenda,
Firstly talking about what the vast majority thinks, is that really the logic you want to use? :) What the vast majority of people thinks means nothing to me based just on that, having 9 people say one thing doesn't make it more truthful than 1 person saying something else, both can equally be valid, or invalid to me. Plus and very importantly the bigger the number ther greater the divergence, what appears similiar in fact has after a short chat are widely different opinions
Logic aside I think you're simply wrong in your assumption, and here's why:
I was born apparently male sexed (I assume XY), now after much revelation a combination of finding my sexuality (female) and a definable intersexed medical condition, what I have is a birth defect as my sexuality is female. But everything appeared normal. Just as the rest of the building blocks of my female gender was there at birth, but they couldn't see those things, were they there? My gender isn't the opposte of my sex because my sex was never male. It's my sex that needs changing to match my gender, not the other way round. I'm the case where a Transsexual has a definable intersexed condition, but no intersex syndrome, I get spared the dysphoria of having what appears a male sex organ by the virtue of the size of my birth defect.
The truth is my gender (of which my later sexuality was was there also) was there at birth. My sex was never what it appeared :)
Kia Ora Lexia,
::) True...For all of the above......And nicely put...
Metta Zenda :)
Victims? After all the skrating, moaning, bitching and booing I see every time I wander into the TS sections of this site - that's a leg being pulled right there. Don't think I read anyone being a victim, I think I saw loads of people calmly explaining that your conception of the thing was a little skew-whiff, but there we go.
And Lexia ??? what was that about?
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 05, 2011, 07:13:52 PM
Victims? After all the skrating, moaning, bitching and booing I see every time I wander into the TS sections of this site - that's a leg being pulled right there. Don't think I read anyone being a victim, I think I saw loads of people calmly explaining that your conception of the thing was a little skew-whiff, but there we go.
And Lexia ??? what was that about?
Kia Ora Pica,
::) You have every right to think this...The "victims" comment BTW was not just meant for those who see themselves as "androgyn" ....It was a general statement....I'm not sexist nor sexless ;)
But I guess now someone's gonna make a big deal about this too-
::) At times it's bloody hard work being perfect... Now I know how god feels... ;) ;D
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: tekla on June 05, 2011, 06:32:03 PM
WOW! Did you major in 'cop out'? If not you missed your true calling.
And remember, how you react to that is up to you, not up to me.
Kia Ora Tekla,
::) So as not to make you "feel" left out :icon_bunch:
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: tekla on June 05, 2011, 06:57:33 PM
It's a bit much to be able to write it off as 'ignorance' or 'incompetence' so I'm going with the 3rd 'i' word, intentional.
I agree.....with a capitol I, it is apparently Intentional.
This thread should have been locked already.
Okay, enough is enough.
*click*
As a global mod, I'm allowed to post here after the thread is locked. So I just wanted to say a couple of things. First, I learned a LOT from this thread. Thank you. Second, although I thought the subject line was clever (I read a lot of speculative fiction and science fiction, and it sounded like a great story title), I clearly wasn't thinking about how it came across to the people being described. I don't think of androgynes and other non-binary folks as fencesitters and never have. But I need to practice more awareness, both on and off the site. Finally, I got a taste of what it might be like for cis people trying to talk to me--they don't really understand, they can't really understand--they can only try, and then they'll only get closer to understanding without quite getting there. Reading this thread has been humbling.