Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I am against the union of transsexuals and homosexuals in the same motion 

In my opinion we should not confuse the issue of sexual orientation, with a very different as is the case with the question of gender.

This confuses people, and they think that transsexuals are gay and vice versa, gay people are transgendered

I think that transsexuals and homosexuals have much to gain from the separation.

What do you think?

I can understand how people can say that diversity should stick together and fight for the same injustice but on the other hand I do agree that it makes people lump us in the same basket creating misunderstandings.
Though the hypothetical separation may not be enough to wash away the stereotypes, especially when you're dealing with idiotic narrow minded bigots that have no interest in cutting us any slack. *shrugs*.

I agree. But the problem is it's too mixed in to separate now.

I tried arguing the point in the 90's when the efforts were beginning in ernest to shove the T on there...in essence, my concern was (and still is) that T-related issues were not the same as those confronting the gay and lesbian population.

The transsexual person generally tends to go one of two tracks post-operatively...they either identify as hetero, in which case the GLB umbrella is NOT where they desire to seek shelter.  Alternatively, they may (as I do) identify as either gay or lesbian, in which case the issues that may arise are NOT because of being transsexual or former transsexual (depending on one's point of view) but rather by virtue of being gay or lesbian. 

Forcing the addition of another segment actually created the prospect, IMO, of hurting the legislative interests of both demographics.  Just because there may be some overlaps between the differences does not mean they need to share a piece of the PAC. 

and especially ->-bleeped-<-s, who they do there?

The "T" is the tie that binds.  Effeminate gay males, masculine lesbian females. Crossing gender lines for gays and lesbians is very common, in their attire and their actions.  Spend some time in the gay or lesbian community and you will see the "T" everywhere.  And it is through crossing gender lines that gays and lesbians are most often read as such.

I understand the sexual orientation vs. gender identity debate but that's only one part of who we are.  And there are a lot of us who are attracted to the same sex as our identified gender, more so than in the general population.

Besides, if we did separate from the G&L communities, what chance do you think we'd have to have our voices heard?  What chance would we have to gain acceptance and attain equal rights?  Trying to go it alone would be a BIG mistake.  I'll put up with a little confusion.  It gives me a chance to open the conversation to education.

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 08, 2011, 09:03:09 AM
The "T" is the tie that binds.  Effeminate gay males, masculine lesbian females. Crossing gender lines for gays and lesbians is very common, in their attire and their actions.  Spend some time in the gay or lesbian community and you will see the "T" everywhere.  And it is through crossing gender lines that gays and lesbians are most often read as such.

but when push comes to shove, it was NOT the manner of presentation that creates problems for gays and/or lesbians...rather it is precisely BECAUSE of the fact of BEING gay or lesbian.     

QuoteBesides, if we did separate from the G&L communities, what chance do you think we'd have to have our voices heard?  What chance would we have to gain acceptance and attain equal rights?  Trying to go it alone would be a BIG mistake.  I'll put up with a little confusion.  It gives me a chance to open the conversation to education.[/size][/font]

I am NOT a fan of coat-tail politics.  Never was, never will be...the specific issue of discussion does not matter.  Jumbo PACs rarely work in the true best interests of the donating populous that funds the PAC in question.   

Julie is right. The T binds the LGBT. Any attempts to divorce the T from the LBG is narrow sighted separtism that only serves to make everyone week in the long run. The politics of separtism is a sure way too self defete.

We simply do not have enough members of our small comunity willing to come out of the woodwork and make themselves known. Understandable but invisibility is a death sentance.
With the LGB we can hope to get a larger pool of allies. A larger pool of allies grants us acces to more ears. More ears is more pocketbooks and wallets that fund the cause. Not pretty or nice but it is the reality of the matter that money talks. The LGBT and HRC and other semi useless organisations do not opperate without funding and we as a group certainly can not fund our own organisations as well as the gay crowd can. They have alot more of them than us so they have more cash.

Besides you can't expect the LGBT to remove the T when there are people like me who are T and who are allied with and work with the existing LGBT as is. Asking to remove the T is apropriating my share of that T that I want squarely attached to the end of my local LGBT.
:)

oh yeah....
when I first came out as TS I was adamantly against LGBT having the T at the end. But over time my opinion has evolved.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 08, 2011, 07:17:46 AM
The transsexual person generally tends to go one of two tracks post-operatively...they either identify as hetero, in which case the GLB umbrella is NOT where they desire to seek shelter.  Alternatively, they may (as I do) identify as either gay or lesbian, in which case the issues that may arise are NOT because of being transsexual or former transsexual (depending on one's point of view) but rather by virtue of being gay or lesbian.

Erm... just to remind you, there's also a B in there somewhere, isn't there? :). It's a treat - you can be a trans bisexual and get shot at from all sides, and forgotten, all at the same time. ::)

Seriously, though, it interests me that lately I've found bisexuals the most understanding of trans people, and vice versa. We're used to being marginalised by the marginalised, so we have good empathy mojo!

I confess these days I sometimes find myself referring to the LGBTQIetc. "community" as the BLT 8).

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 08, 2011, 09:25:16 AM
but when push comes to shove, it was NOT the manner of presentation that creates problems for gays and/or lesbians...rather it is precisely BECAUSE of the fact of BEING gay or lesbian.

I respectfully disagree Ann.  And strongly so.  Public perception, based on presentation, is the primary method by which a person is presumed to be G, L, B or T.  And that perception is most often used when a person, employer, etc chooses to discriminate against you.  They don't ask first and discriminate later.  And you don't tell.  So they presume, based on your presentation. 

Before it was semi-ok to be gay, I remember guys being given all kinds of ->-bleeped-<- because other guys THOUGHT they were gay.  No one KNEW, they just suspected.  And everyone who is G, L, B or T knows better than to come right out and say it.  Even when ENDA discussions were first beginning there was an underlying effort to put forward straight-acting gays to present to the public.  They didn't want guys who LOOKED gay.

The reason stealth is so important to many of us is because, if no one knows, they can't discriminate against us (for being T).  There are still many people in the LGBT community who present as straight or cisgender because of this.  They can BE G, L, B or T but their presentation won't divulge that and they won't have to deal with the fallout.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 08, 2011, 01:26:40 PM
Julie is right. The T binds the LGBT. Any attempts to divorce the T from the LBG is narrow sighted separtism that only serves to make everyone week in the long run. The politics of separtism is a sure way too self defete.

narrow-sighted separatism? 

just...wow.

I wonder then how you classify the action of having FORCED the T upon the GLB PAC in the first place...were you accusing THOSE entities of being narrow-sighted at the time by the fact of lines being drawn between sex and gender?

Coat-tail politics SUCK, and that seems to be all the trans-activists want to do is ride on someone elses coat-tails.  It matters not whether it is legislation or court battles.  And they seem not to typically give a damn about whether it sinks the individual (as we just saw in recent litigation)...

Oh, and FWIW, my opposition to the T addition dates back to my days BEFORE having been post-correction...

The best line I heard was spoken at a transgender conference ....

You know why T is in the GLBQ soup?  Because we were picked on by the same people on the playground.

Every group needs folks to fight the cause.  So why not the GLBQ community.  When we fight each other we loose strength.  Reality it transgender is rare -- homesexuality is a bit more common but also low in numbers.    Some transgender folks fall into the q spectrum ... and some of us who are hetro but lived a good part of our lives in the GLBQ community don't want to call ourselves hetro --- so why not join ranks and fight together for equal rights for everyone.  Who else is willing to fight our fight with us?

Coat-tail politics SUCK

Perhaps, but coalition politics are the ONLY way to win, short of being the oil industry and just going out and buying your politicians outright on the open market.  Yeah, Harvey Milk won because of a huge amount of support from the gay community, but what really made the difference between the election he won, and the earlier ones he lost was not the gay vote, but the union support.  Harvey worked very hard to win the support of the unions by supporting union causes (to this day it's all but impossible to find Coors in any SF gay bar).  That's how it's done, and that's how its won.

they seem not to typically give a damn about whether it sinks the individual (as we just saw in recent litigation)...
Put the blame for that where it belongs (as you correctly did in an earlier post).  It was her lawyers who CHOSE that route - ill-advised perhaps - and not the 'cause' that forced them too.  She could have refused that defense by firing her legal team.  But being opportunistic, she saw only the dollar signs and let that blind her to the writing on the wall which would have said that 'cause based' (just like 'gay panic') defenses rarely work.

While each group have their own issues, I'd rather have them as friends than enemies.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on June 08, 2011, 03:22:01 PM
While each group have their own issues, I'd rather have them as friends than enemies.

Groups need not march lockstep into oblivion in order to be friends...

So Ben Franklin was wrong when he said:

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately"

I just have experienced transphobia within the LBG community and don't exactly feel I'm in a safe place with them. And if it isn't with them it certainly won't be found with any other group and other Ts.

Kia Ora,

::) Judging by what been said and by whom, it would seem most of the discontent regarding the LGB"T" comes from within the USA...Is it just a US problem? I've not come across it here in Aotearoa [NZ] but then I'm not an active member of any group...However for the most part the local LGBTQ all seem to be one big "Happy Kiwi Family"... But I could be wrong...

Metta Zenda :)

I've never noticed a problem here in SF. 

Seriously?
You wish to place blood on my hands?
NO!
Just because YOU 'think' this does not make it true.

Being allied with anouther group does not cause deaths. To insinuate as much is not even within the realm of believability.

The T belongs squarely on the end of GLB. It has been there for years. There will not be a fractioning of factions any time soon. And it shouldn't.
There are plenty of T people who support the LGBT as a whole group and saying that said alliance is causing deaths is just wrong. Not too mention unsubstantiated.

It doesn't matter if the T is on the LGB, transwomen will be seen as gay men regardless. Hell I have a wife and I am assumed to be a gay male all the time. Know what? It doesn't take any skin off my nose. I know the truth of the matter.

Asking for the T to be removed from the LGB because it makes you uncomfortable ignores the feelings and opinions of others.

There are ALOT of transfolks who wholeheartedly support the LGBT. Asking the rest of us to stop being part of the organisation we support because you don't like it is not exactly playing nice now is it?

Ever heard the term "Divide and conquer"?

If people who are oppressed for what amounts to the same reason (not behaving as society expects them to based on the genitals they were born with) start breaking up into smaller and smaller groups then they make themselves weaker for it.

If everyone who is oppressed would stand together and call for "Equal" rights, then equal rights would be within reach!

Truthfully I'm tired of the "infighting".  Each post "expresses" an individuals opinion about this issue.

TAKE IT AS THAT.

You don't have to agree, but be careful in how you phrase your responses.

ANY more name calling and this gets LOCKED.

Sarah L.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 09, 2011, 08:20:37 AM
Asking for the T to be removed from the LGB because it makes you uncomfortable ignores the feelings and opinions of others.

There are ALOT of transfolks who wholeheartedly support the LGBT. Asking the rest of us to stop being part of the organisation we support because you don't like it is not exactly playing nice now is it?

was it playing nice to shove it on there over the objections of many of us way back when?  The current generation may not have been around to KNOW the difference.  Some of us DID go through all of our process in the days when it was just GLB...and had it not been for the fact that I was dyke-oriented (hung out in the Houston bars at the age of 15 back when the drinking age was still 18), I would not have had anything to do with the GLB community.  I remain in the community *not* because I was born with a T-related birth defect but instead precisely because I am lesbian. 

I find it more than mildly ironic that some of us are taken to task because we don't want the inclusion of trans in the alphabet soup and are allegedly ignoring the feelings of others when the alleged majority is doing the same precise thing to US.   

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 09, 2011, 06:24:20 AM
How does attaching T to LGB hurt me?

The big fear of mine is that I will be murdered because I will be mistaken for gay by a partner who freaks out on finding out.

The combination of 1) having T attached to GLB fuels that perception to the general public, and 2)  the joining of gender variance and sexual fluidity in an umbrella causes the public to believe we can be anything ...gives proof to the public that we are gay.

This is the perception as I see it.

I am binary minded and heterosexual. I am dating a man now I have had sexual intercourse with on 2 occasions. I have not disclosed to him because every time I disclose I am rejected because of the public's perception that T people are gay. I disclosed a number of times last year that I was post-op and was rejected each time. On one occassion, I was in fear for my life. I began taking an anti depressant in January because of it.

I awoke this morning with the dream that my partner was murdering me with a gun after finding out my past. I will be seeing him tonight ...and on and on it goes.

I dont know how to deal with it, other than trying to put it out of my mind.

I feel like I am not safe because of this association. It affects my ability to leave peacefully as a woman in intimate heterosexual relationships. Its a safety issue for me.

hugs,


Valerie

p.s. This is not a homophobic problem but a safety issue.

Valerie, I understand your concerns. You have very real safety concerns and I'm not trying to minimize that. And I'm not taking any kind of a stance here on whether the T should be attached to the LGB.

But a homophobic hetero man isn't likely to care whether the T is attached to the LGB. A homophobic date's concern isn't that trans women are gay, it's that they once had a male body. He doesn't care whether you are gay, he cares what he imagines being with someone 'born male' says about him. 
Do you really think a guy like that would check his rage because the T had been knocked off the LGB?

When the T was taged on the end there WERE T people who agreed with that.
Yes there were people who were vehemantly against said alliance but their voices were drowned out by those who disagreed with them.

No one group of transsexuals own the T. It is not the exclusive proprietary domain of hetero white trans women.

I would like to keep my share of the T on the end of the LGBT. Thank you very much.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 09, 2011, 09:54:25 AM
No one group of transsexuals own the T. It is not the exclusive proprietary domain of hetero white trans women.

Nobody said it was...and let's face it, I have NEVER been in the 'hetero white woman' category.  Two out of three perhaps, but NEVER straight. 

I still find it interesting that some refuse to acknowledge that the irony that exists when a majority that claims that they are ignored by society as a whole refuses to acknowledge that they are the very same group that seeks to deliberately drown out those of us that think differently...but yet people like Val and I get accused of trying to marginalize people. 

I would advise caution with that line of argument, it's taking responsibility away from individuals for the actions they take.

It's also a false syllogism:

Heterosexual trans women get murdered by heterosexual men they're dating.
Heterosexual trans women are seen in public perception as gay men.
Therefore heterosexual trans women get murdered by heterosexual men they're dating because they're seen as gay men.

It's fundamentally flawed and based on fear rather than fact.

By my calculations, the T should have been there all along.  Most likely that didn't happen because of the stigma attached to T.

As far as the gay angle, FA is right.  Every horror story I have read where a man finds out his partner was born male has an element in it of him freaking out because he was attracted to a guy and that makes HIM gay.  He has to prove he's not gay but was just duped and is angry because of it.  So he takes out his anger on the person who duped him.   That way he can prove to the world he's not gay and regain his social status as a ->-bleeped-<-got hater.

But there's another side of the whole gay thing: those of us who have zero physical attraction to those born of the same gender as we.  Guys are great for playing golf, telling bawdy jokes and moving furniture but they don't ignite even the slightest sexual spark in me.  But I doubt knowing that would keep some deranged transphobe from wanting to kick my teeth in.

And my sexual orientation puts me in the "L" group too.  (I like to joke by saying, "I was straight until I transitioned!")

Since there's an element of T in everyone within the LGBTIQ community (and elsewhere, I might add) it's a no-brainer that T is not only included but is also considered an integral part.  There is no coattail politics, no tagging along for the ride.  We are a very important part of the entire community because T is our commonality.

If I had my say I would simply campaign to wipe out discrimination, wipe out prejudice, wipe out hatred, wipe out ignorance.  And everyone who is a victim of one or more of those things will be better off, even outside of our community.  But that's like wishing for world peace.  For now I'll settle for baby steps and working to educate the ignorant one by one.

Why don't everyone just take a deep breath and smile...?  I can understand impassioned viewpoints, but snipping, bickering, and one-upmanship aren't going to get us anywhere.  You'd think the pros and cons could be presented without attacking one another.

I know I'm adding nothing to this discussion, but please just remember that at the end of the day, we're all human beings doing our best to get through life.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 09, 2011, 10:37:39 AM
Thanks, Sephirah. I hope it is. I hope I can find a way out of this line of thinking.

Honey, people will do what they will do. And you're not responsible for how a man you're dating acts. You can only be yourself. If someone's a scumbag with you then it's not because of who you are, or any generalised perception, but because of who they are as an individual. *hug*

I am in a polyamourous relationship and I am bisexual. I like to flirt with men and occasionaly sleep with a guy.

I also have been known to frequent the local gay bar.

I am just as much a potential target as a hetero transwoman. If not more so due to my associations. How many of us are beatten coming out of a known gay bar each year? Just had one in the pappers recently if I recall correctly.

The argument that it is only hetero trans women who are facing the risks is a fallacy.

EDIT:
Sorry to hear about that dream Val. That musta sucked beans big time.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 09, 2011, 10:36:26 AM
Hi Nero,

I am working through my fears. I apologize for expressing my emotions so. It is embarrassing. I have to resolve it so I can move on and be happy.

No, I dont think a homophobic hetero man cares whether the T is attached to the LGB. I believe his perception has been affected by movement of the past 20 years. I dont think TS people in previous generations were murdered like they do today. There has to be a cause. All I'm asking is that we pause to consider why our trans women are being murdered.

I was triggered this morning by a dream of being murdered by my boyfriend who I am seeing tonight. I have to cope with that.

I apologize.

-Valerie

No need to apologize, hon. There's nothing wrong with expressing your concerns. I was just pointing out why I think they may be misplaced.

One other thing I'd like to add...  It is the negative stigma that fuels the anger that results in people in our community to be harmed.  Even if the T wasn't such an integral part of the community and we chose to go it alone, changing that stigma would take decades upon decades.  We are a very tiny voice.

By riding side by side with the rest of our community, we have a far better chance of changing the negative stigma, and much faster too.  The transphobe/homophobe will still be a phobe if he/she so chooses.  So if we happen to come across one, it will always be the stigma that will incite them, not the truth.

Val, I feel for you.  And I understand your fears.  I'm happy for you being in a relationship you seem to enjoy and I hope you will always be treated as the woman you are.  But sometimes living in fear prevents us from enjoying life.  And there's always that element of a "guilty mind" kind of thing.  Don't put yourself in jeopardy but don't put yourself in jail either.  Enjoy what you have and just be yourself.

We are harmed violently by heterosexual men.

No.

We are harmed by violent men.  It's the violent streak, not the sexuality that does it. 
P.S.  There is a lot of domestic violence in the gay community also.

I will admit that more of the assailants are men but that is not always the case.
Just recently we have had reports of women involved in violent trans bashings in the news.

:icon_hug:

Gay = Trans women  :'(

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 09, 2011, 11:25:49 AM
We are harmed violently by heterosexual men.

There is plenty of evidence men who have gay or bi tendencies but cannot accept that turn to transwomen to fulfill their needs.  When someone in their life finds out the woman they are dating was born male they respond by pretending they didn't know.  Most guys will just break it off at that point but the fringe cases will resort to violence, the level of their insecurities being so great they become completely irrational.

I believe, in time, the whole LGBTIQ phenomena will be sufficiently understood by the average person, so long as we stay united.  Already the distinction between sexual orientation and gender identity is being made in the media.  Most people can't yet wrap their heads around it, even though it's not that hard to understand if you're listening.  But most people aren't listening because they have enough on their plate already.

It will always be the extremophobes who will give the misunderstood the most trouble.  They are typically non-listeners and therefore uneducated but those we hear from are most often people in positions of power, appealing to the emotional (and therefore reactionary) side of their followers, hoping for financial support to fight off the enemy.  And it works.  Some of these people (often political and religious figures) are closeted gays who know coming out will mean the loss of their supporters, their job, their power and their wealth. 

Our opponents wear all different kinds of clothing and come in all sizes.  That's why we have to be ever vigil.

I'm not T, just an SO in a heterosexual relationship.  Also not L or G, but maybe B.  So feel free to ignore this.

The reason homosexuality is persecuted has little to do with the fact that some people like the same sex (don't yell at me yet!).  It has everything to do with the fact that liking the same sex (or, worse, actually *having* sex with the same sex) is a violation of the expectations others have on a person based upon the socially acceptable gender roles for someone of the person's perceived gender.

Basically, a gay man is wrong in the bigot's eyes because he's not acting like a man.  The transgender woman is wrong for the same reason - she's not acting like a man (the bigot sees her as a man).  But in both cases, gender stereotypes are being enforced upon the victim by a third party, and these stereotypes are just not based in truth.  In one case, the stereotype about what partners are acceptable for a man is a bogus stereotype about men.  In the other, the premise is wrong - she's female, not male.  But a huge chunk of the problem is that the stereotypes are enforced, not just that the wrong one is applied.

There are differences in the subgroups that make up LGBT*.  L's have different issues than G's (for instance, they have the double minority status of being women *and* lesbian), which makes things different.  B's are different than L's or G's, because they don't really fit nice neat categories.  "I don't know who I might be attracted to tomorrow' isn't easy for people to understand.  And obviously T's have issues that others don't (although there are many different subgroups of T's that have different issues from each other - I'd say an MTF vs. FTM's experiences differ in significant ways, that people who want to live between-genders/without-gender/both-gender/other-gender are often not having the same experiences as other T's, cross-dressers have different issues and concerns than other T's, etc.  Even within the T community, I can see even as an outsider that not everyone who identifies as part of "T" considers everyone else who identifies as part of "T" to be a legitimate member.  But somehow it's only okay for T's to ally themselves with a group that is more cohesive than T is itself?

Now there are also differences.  There are issues which are just G issues, or just L issues, or just B issues, or just T issues.  But there are also issues that affect everyone who has violated someone else's idea of what gender roles are acceptable.  And then there are issues that transcend LGBT people and include other groups.  None of this is a bad thing.

If an entire group all agreed and respected everyone else in that group, I'd probably call it a cult.

I'd say join a group and support them when they are doing the right things.  Go your own way when they are not.  You might go back and forth with the same group, supporting some of what they do one day, while fighting against it the next.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's how you know you aren't in a cult.  :)

There's another side to this as well. Being gay we face the risk of being rejected and brushed of as straight within the gay community.

Seriously though, this topic is an excellent example of how instead of discriminated groups understanding and supporting eachother they try to step on eachother pointing and screaming "at least I'm not like THEM!"

You are not at risk because we are allied with the LGB, you are at risk because you once had different parts. People jumped to their conclusions about trans people just being gays before we were allied with the LGB, just like people jumped to the conclusion that all gay men actually wanted to be women before we were allied. The cooperation, as I see it, has only worked to clear up some of those misconceptions.

Yesterday in Spokane WA we had PRIDE.
The largest group of out and proud TS and TG people (Spokane TRANS People) marched in the parade with the local LGBT. Including me and Sevan.

There was no talk of separtism, no talk of fractioning into groups. We were one group with one goal. Visability.

United we stand.....

Quote from: Wraith on June 12, 2011, 01:33:28 AM
You are not at risk because we are allied with the LGB, you are at risk because you once had different parts. People jumped to their conclusions about trans people just being gays before we were allied with the LGB, just like people jumped to the conclusion that all gay men actually wanted to be women before we were allied.

^^
This.

I think the LGB would have and easier time fighting discrimination and gaining social acceptance without the T.

But I don't think it would help us at all.   Not enough of us (especially not enough willing to be advocates) or money for us to be taken seriously.

The way I see it is that most of what the LGBT organizations currently fight for benefits us and I don't understand the arguments from the T   side for separation -  I think we would loose a lot.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 08, 2011, 09:25:16 AM
but when push comes to shove, it was NOT the manner of presentation that creates problems for gays and/or lesbians...rather it is precisely BECAUSE of the fact of BEING gay or lesbian.       

That is absolutely NOT true.  The problems for lesbians and gay men are almost ENTIRELY due to their non-traditional gender expression.  The main reason why gay men are often the targets of ridicule from, say, straight men has very little basis in their actual orientation, but in the way that they present themselves.  The stigma that gay men face in society can largely be attributed to the misogyny of society that tells us that femininity is somehow less valuable and desirable than masculinity and therefore, men who exhibit femininity are considered less valuable- and less of "real men"- to the society at large.  It ALL has to do with presentation.

Quote from: EmilyElizabeth on June 15, 2011, 12:51:07 AM
That is absolutely NOT true.  The problems for lesbians and gay men are almost ENTIRELY due to their non-traditional gender expression.  The main reason why gay men are often the targets of ridicule from, say, straight men has very little basis in their actual orientation, but in the way that they present themselves.  The stigma that gay men face in society can largely be attributed to the misogyny of society that tells us that femininity is somehow less valuable and desirable than masculinity and therefore, men who exhibit femininity are considered less valuable- and less of "real men"- to the society at large.  It ALL has to do with presentation.

I cannot really speak to gay men since I never was one and only spent time around a small number of them...most of whom were NOT walking stereotypes and thus projected no presentation issues that served to cause them problems. 

But I guess my experiences over the close to the past 30 years with the lesbian community count for nothing (I was active in the community even before graduation from high school).  I'd say I had a pretty good size cross-sampling of societal response to lesbians given the number of different areas I have lived in my career.  Who we sleep with is NOT gender expression. 

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 15, 2011, 09:45:37 AM
You think butches and andros don't face more discrimination? Seriously?

Do you think ALL gay and lesbian peeps fit a 'butch or andro' mode?  Seriously? 

But bottom line, no, it is NOT about appearance.  It IS about simply being gay or lesbian. 

I think appearances count for a lot more than you're letting on.

I am gonna have to back Sarah7 on this one.

Also Ann you said "Do you think ALL gay and lesbian peeps fit a 'butch or andro' mode?  Seriously? "

Now you are throwing out red herrings. She never said anything of the sort and you know it.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 15, 2011, 10:04:23 AM
I am gonna have to back Sarah7 on this one.

Also Ann you said "Do you think ALL gay and lesbian peeps fit a 'butch or andro' mode?  Seriously? "

Now you are throwing out red herrings. She never said anything of the sort and you know it.

Sarah is the one that narrowed the scope of the topic being discussed...and in the grand scheme, butch and andro peeps are a small percentage of the overall gay and lesbian community.  So if a red herring was tossed, it was NOT I who introduced it into the discussion... 

But to bring this back full circle, I still have seen nothing that warrants the T being in the alphabet soup.  I held that Opinion 20 or so years ago and I continue to hold that feeling...

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 15, 2011, 10:22:35 AM
But to bring this back full circle, I still have seen nothing that warrants the T being in the alphabet soup.  I held that Opinion 20 or so years ago and I continue to hold that feeling...

Ann, you and I will just have to agree to disagree.  As I've said before, T is the tie that binds us all together.  And I will always see it that way until someone convinces me otherwise.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 15, 2011, 10:23:05 AM
It is very frightening and terrible, moreso because it is not just a few fanatics but spans across society.

And those in that span of society you are referring to are led by the few very good spinners, be it in politics, religion or elsewhere.  For some things, people just don't want to take the time to do their own analysis so they choose to believe what they see on TV.

It is those people that feel it is their duty (and mission) to rid society of this plague

Actually, to tell the absolute unvarnished truth, the reality is that far and away the vast majority of people in American society really don't give a ->-bleeped-<-.  Your misfortune and none of my own as the old American ballad goes.  There are concentrated pockets of people who feel this way, and if you're in one of them I'd suggest you move, because those places are about to slowest to change.  And granted they have a couple of real loudmouth speakers, but those people have followers who for the most part are old, fat and can't chase you any faster than their Hover-round can carry them.  And old.  Did I say old and fat?  Yeah, they are not going to be with us much longer.

Quote from: tekla on June 15, 2011, 11:41:24 AMAnd granted they have a couple of real loudmouth speakers, but those people have followers who for the most part are old, fat and can't chase you any faster than their Hover-round can carry them.  And old.  Did I say old and fat?  Yeah, they are not going to be with us much longer.

This has been my experience as well.  The loudest bigots tend to be aging fast, and declining even faster.  This probably is because they spend all their time trying to force other people to live by arbitrary rules that they themselves don't abide, rather than doing something practical with their own lives (such as improving their diet or exercise, for example)

I listen to Christian radio programs.  I'm the type of person that believes in keeping my friends close, but my enemies closer.  Anyway, it is always the "old" guys talking who hold the most judgments.  The younger talkers tend to be more open-minded, more reasonable, and more willing to concede in arguments if the opposition makes a valid point.  They also tend to think more critically and logically.  Sometimes they even make good arguments on hot issues (such as abortion) without referring to the Bible at all.

The world is getting smaller, figuratively speaking.  We are living in a world where it is becoming impossible to step on everyone else's toes.  People are learning how to compromise and work with people of varying beliefs and lifestyles.  Those who do not learn how to compromise are going to have a hard time living in another decade or two.

I agree that the T does bind. From my own experience, we are joined at the hip. I support whatever will benefit the gay, lesbian, and bisexual communities. Yes, our issues may be different but we suffer the same oppression without and within the community.

Recently when I was at the community center I was obvserving the many expressions of gender and sexuality. I said to myself that they are my brothers and sisters. This is the way I feel and we need to support one another.

Gennee  

I would suggest that our community has only gotten the legal advances in many states and cities due to coat tail politics. We don't have the numbers and are still 20 years behind the L & G communities for social acceptance. Heck, we're still trying to fight our way out of the DSM ! (something that gays and lesbians did long ago)

I understand Val D's point to a degree, but violence is violence as Tekla said. To Julie's point and others, gays and lesbians often cross gender lines with their gender expression. However, the difference between them and us is that their gender identity conforms with their birth sex. Ours does not.

I'm sure though, that some gender queer gay and lesbians stay within their own communities, and choose not to transition because a) they like to be accepted by the group b) they have a better chance of 'hooking' up and finding a partner if they remain in their same physical and social gender. I know of one lesbian who dropped her GF because that person is now transitioning male. This woman now has her eyes affixed to my friend who is MTF.

So in the end, you can be T and not L,G, or B-or not. If you're LGB you can also be T. Some segments of society, however, will see us as all queer or wrong while others won't care at all. Just the way it is. 

Hi,

I'm comeing at  this  from a very different view point  *& county  N Z,, 

  i work alone  & i get better results as well. im allso different, im intersex both male & female not seperated dont think as one or the other ,

I allso learnd 14 years ago i had no trans friends nore knew any . so what i did was stay close to my women friends & i talked with them mind you tranistion was not a word i used because i did not change from one gender to another hence my difference. so it was stand alone ,

Over the last few years iv been accepted as a person & as a woman in my own right, the trans community here is so fragmented that they dont agree among them selfs so theres no point to have all the different groups of people even try  to work to gether it wont happen ,

If your trans = transsexual you will have the same rights as any woman tho many lesbain wont agree with that because they dont accept any males let alone trans, so if you have any detail being a male background then your out. even when you live as a woman whos had surgery,& iv been told that to my face, from lesbain who i thought were friends,  now not all are like that of cause i do have lesbain friends who are my our friends,

I have put on air in the media = papers & nation wide T V  what its like for a transfemale to live , & as a woman, & being well known as well  people do & have heard what its like & are willing to accept difference .

If i had tryed to work with the trans community it would not have happened, as it was i did try after some time,

The other point ill  make is the trans  community dont wont intersex people around them . that to i know from my friend who was told to not come to any meetings that where takeing place ,

so my thinking is till people with in the trans community accept others with thier many difference's working to gether will never happen, . okay thats here in N Z ,  You know the meaning of the word  undertow , well thats what its like,  now there may be afew  who are willing to accept difference tho not many .

...noeleena...

The T belongs in the LGB because of shared oppressors and many transsexuals like me and a host of others volunteer time to the LGBT on a regular basis.
We are part of the political alliance that puts in a fair share of man hours.

Now if you can convince these T women and men to stop being part of their local LGBT you will have a tough row to hoe.
For many of us the local LGBT centers are the hub of socialization. The only calm port in a stormy sea of bigotry.

The T belongs in the alphabet soup because alot of us are doing our damndest to keep it in there.

Here's the real deal.  If Section A of a group wants to DO, and Section B does not, well the DO side always wins out.  It will be done as long as some members are willing to do it.  As long as there are people like Cynthialee and myself, all the people in in all the basements writing on all the blogs is not going to change it.

Most people alienate themselves from the T community because of the stigma.  If we had the same respect and social status as the Two Spirit did, we would be one of the top rungs of the social ladder.  The only way to rid T of the stigma is by being seen and heard and then by presenting ourselves with respect and dignity.  Eventually the tide will turn.

Stealth, alienating each other, fighting among ourselves, alienating our allies, will all delay or impede any progress we might enjoy had we all just worked together.  And instead of 20 or 30 years, it will take 100 years.

Val,
You may well be right. But the genie is out of the bottle. There is scant chance that the LGBT will ever fraction or take the T off the end.
I think that perhaps it would serve those who share your opinion to focus energy into some other venture that can net social change. As it is the majority of trans folks out there have no clue as to the war over alphabet soups and the TS/TG thing. The majority are just living life and doing their thing. They don't read the bloggs and news sites you and I do. How can you hope to disassociate the T from the soup when the majority of the T folks working with their local LGBT do not even have exposure to this debate?

Quote from: cynthialee on June 15, 2011, 01:18:00 PMshared oppressors

^^
This.  So much of this.

To me, that's what it's all about.  I fight for drag queens not because I like drag queens, but because the exact same sexist system is using the exact same excuses for discriminating against them as me.

It doesn't matter whether you are a man in a dress, or whether you are perceived to be a man in a dress.  The discrimination is coming from the same sexist system.  The whole reason anyone has to socially transition to begin with is because of that system.  If it wasn't for sexism, SRS would just be another body modification.

I question why many transsexuals still support this system of sexism, when this system is the only reason they were ever discriminated against to begin with.

I question why many transsexuals still support this system of sexism,

Because they have just as much invested in it, if not more, than the oppressors.  As Pogo said: We have met the enemy, and it is us.

I am two-spirit myself so maybe I have a different view from many. I'm sure there are five things that LGB & T agree on. Yeah, T may be years behind but oppression is oppression. Here, the Stonewall Riots was a historical event but I can point out where it went astray. I will do that in a subsequent post.


Gennee  

I don't see any of this as some sort of monolith, but more like Golden Gate Park with all sorts of different sections, terrains, events and activities.  You can't be everywhere at once, sometimes you don't even know what going on there on the other side of the hill, you like some of it more than other parts.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 15, 2011, 01:18:00 PM
The T belongs in the LGB because of shared oppressors and many transsexuals like me and a host of others volunteer time to the LGBT on a regular basis.
We are part of the political alliance that puts in a fair share of man hours.

Now if you can convince these T women and men to stop being part of their local LGBT you will have a tough row to hoe.
For many of us the local LGBT centers are the hub of socialization. The only calm port in a stormy sea of bigotry.

The T belongs in the alphabet soup because alot of us are doing our damndest to keep it in there.

I agree with you about this. I have always been a very big supporter of LGBT and the T being in the LGBT.

A lot of people say they dont wanna be part of the LGB because lesbians and gays are nasty to us.

Well, from my experience, I have had only wonderful experiences with lesbians and gays and we need to be careful not to stereotype people because we do not like it when others do it to us.

Quote from: Annah on June 21, 2011, 12:55:51 PM
I agree with you about this. I have always been a very big supporter of LGBT and the T being in the LGBT.

A lot of people say they dont wanna be part of the LGB because lesbians and gays are nasty to us.

Well, from my experience, I have had only wonderful experiences with lesbians and gays and we need to be careful not to stereotype people because we do not like it when others do it to us.

I agree with you Annah!

I got the honor and opportunity to start and coordinate an international joint statement against transgender pathologization and I am completely overwhelmed by the support it received within the LGBT community with more than thirty groups supporting it now.
For the first time the Danish trans- and LGBT organizations stand united not in support of gay rights, but in support of transgender rights.

My experience is one of support and acceptance too. I strongly believe in the idea of a big rainbow family.


Best wishes

So long as T people keep volunteering time and money to the LGBT then the T belongs there.

I wasn't forcibly conscripted into helping the LGBT. I went of my own volition.

As for why the T belongs there:
Transsexuals and transgenders violate societial norms for thier birth sex in the changing of said sex. Homosexuals violate societal norms for their birth sex in who they are having sex with.
In both cases societal norms regarding sex are being violated. The T binds the LGBT when you think of it.

From my angle it seems that some T people are upset that some other T people have decided to throw their support to the LGBT.

What I do with my spare saturdays has zero reflection on anyone else. To ask me to stop being part of the LGBT because of your comfort and beliefs are being violated completely ignores my comfort and beliefs.

No one group of T people own the T. If some of us wish to use our part of that T for a political cause....it is our right.
No one is coopting anyone else. No one is forcing anyone to do anything or believe anything.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 25, 2011, 03:27:18 AM
If that is true then this can partly be a gay issue and we should just admit it. And if it is, drop the T and advocate for broader gay rights openly.

I still don't think it's a gay issue.  It's about stepping out of line and not living "appropriately" for what others think you should be, based on your perceived gender.

For gay men, that's sleeping with other guys, "an abomination".

For someone who has transitioned, or is trying to transition, that's supposedly going against how God created a man or women to be.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 25, 2011, 03:27:18 AM
Looking at it from the other side, why do gay organizations advocate for trans people? Is it out of the kindness of their heart, or is there an agenda that totally negates straight peoples identity because many gay people enjoy expressing themselves in a gender variant way? If there is no agenda, why dont gay organization take up the cause for other groups?

I remember some of the first times I went out with my wife, when she did something to show she was part of an LGBT organization.  I remember thinking "OMG, people are going to think I'm gay."  In other words, they are going to think my identity is different than it is.  After all, some people, sadly, do mistake women for men, and that's going to be a lot more common when the woman is transitioning or post-transition, no matter how much work someone goes through to avoid that.  And, thus, their affectionate partner must obviously be gay in some people's eyes.  Showing support of the gay community is something gay people would do, so that would likely influence an observer's "guess" about her gender, maybe even swaying someone who might otherwise have considered her female.

I've since learned that some of this was my own homophobia.  I've also learned that my wife clearly had a stronger, more developed sense of who she is than I had at the time (she's not ignorant as to how identifying publicly would change people's perceptions of her).  I respect her a lot for that.

As for why the LGB community is willing to support T, they definitely haven't always been willing to do so - at least not some of their leaders (witness the first drafts of ENDA in the US).  But that doesn't mean history is completely lost.  A lot of it may have been who was on the front lines fighting the cops at Stonewall and why they were there together.  A lot of it was that "homosexual" applied just as much to the trans person as to gay person, when laws were enforced - they were the same category according to the law.  While we've grown as a society, an "T" doesn't equal "L or G" today, it used to, and the prejudiced groups still treat them the same.  The people being arrested during that time period for being "homosexuals" were often people wearing the wrong gender's clothing.  So the connection goes back at least that far, even if we know sexual orientation has nothing to do with gender.

That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with having T-only groups to focus on the issues that are unique to T people.  There are plenty of L groups, after all - clearly L's felt that LGBT groups weren't 100% representative of their needs on their own.

When I first came out I was very much oppossed to the T being in the LGB so I do understand the arguments. I just do not think they are as sound as I once did.

By all means if there are those of you who do not wish to be part of the LGBT, then do not volunteer there. Form a trans only group, but don't get mad at those of us who do wish to be part of the LGBT. We do have the right of self determination do we not?

Quote from: Slanan on June 25, 2011, 09:17:43 AM
I still don't think it's a gay issue.  It's about stepping out of line and not living "appropriately" for what others think you should be, based on your perceived gender.

For gay men, that's sleeping with other guys, "an abomination".

For someone who has transitioned, or is trying to transition, that's supposedly going against how God created a man or women to be.

This is why I'm so interested in gays and lesbians.  Well, mostly lesbians  ;D

The arguments people use to discriminate against gays are essentially the same arguments they use to discriminate against us in our community.  It is essentially "God created X to do Y, and Y to do X."  For transsexuals the argument is "God created Y to be Y, and Y can't become X"

Both of these arguments are based on the idea of God (or some other force) creating women and men to BE a certain way, and that existing outside of that certain way is WRONG.  The only difference between us and gays in this respect is that the "certain way" that we are existing is different.  But since moralists don't like ANY of our certain ways, there's no point in trying to fight separately when we are all being beaten down by the same Morality Club (as I call it).  If soldiers are attacked on the battlefield, they have a much greater chance of surviving if they fight together and coordinate their firepower, rather than trying to individually take on their opponents.

Or, as a man who was an expert in hindsight once said:

QuoteFirst they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.  Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.  Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

- Martin Niemoller (German pastor who was imprisoned by Nazis)

Quote from: cynthialee on June 25, 2011, 08:53:13 AM
No one group of T people own the T. If some of us wish to use our part of that T for a political cause....it is our right.
No one is coopting anyone else. No one is forcing anyone to do anything or believe anything.

then don't get pissed when some of us lobby against legislation that we do not believe accurately represents our past history or medical condition...

Today Sevan and I attended our IRL trans support group hosted at the local LGBT center.
There was no talk of separation and there was only support and comunity focus on anyones mind.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 26, 2011, 12:23:22 AM
Today Sevan and I attended our IRL trans support group hosted at the local LGBT center.
There was no talk of separation and there was only support and comunity focus on anyones mind.

Cythialee

I noticed this as well. When i meet up with LGBT face to face there doesn't seem to be an issue. LGBT are working in harmony and together we are getting a lot done.

It seems that all the arguments of not wanting to be part of the LGB spectrum or that LGB somehow hates us seem to originate and swim about the internet world because I haven't seen it in the real world.

For example, I work alongside the HRC. I do a lot of work for them as a transgender voice person. For me, it has been an experience of a lifetime. I have shared my transgender story to Al Franken, Joe Lieberman and a Delware Senator all in one day because Joe Solmonese was kind enough to invite me to his friend's house where they celebrated the "Don't Tell Don't Ask repeal party." Joe made sure of it that every single influential law maker in that house knew me and made sure that they sat down to hear my story. That house was so packed that day that Joe could have done whatever he wanted but he focused his time and energy in pushing for the transgender cause.

Online, you hear a LOTTA trans people bash HRC because of ENDA. But everysingle "real life" trans I met during Pride Parades, gatherings, etc where I represented HRC, i have heard nothing but wonderful comments from the trans community.

So there is a big difference on the internet versus the real world. I think a lot more civility is practiced in the real world because you are looking at you "opponent" eye to eye and a diplomatic solution is always better versus hiding behind a monitor.

The local LGBT staff got our group (newest incarnation) off the ground. Then the non trans folks turned the IRL support group over the the T people in the LGBT and steped back. There wasn't a single cisgender at todays meeting. Nothing but transfolks.
Right now Sevan is the group leader. (Comunications Co-ordinator) The group is being run for trans by trans. The only involvement of the cisgender LGB allies is to provide space and a voice.

One of the neat things that got brought up was that there doesn't seem to be much of a quid pro quo going on. The LGBT center is providing us space, a voice in the local rag, and I just found out that they have retained a therapist who can write HRT and SRS letters for the trans folks who opperates on a sliding scale.
We are giving them a T too hang on the LGB and occasionaly some man hours. So we are going to do our best as a group to try and give more time to the center.

Like I said before if you want to convince the trans folks at the local level, who do not even know there is a movement afoot to separate the T from the LGB, you will have a tough row to hoe.
The only people localy who were even aware of this movement were Sevan and I and a couple of women we talked about it with a few weeks ago. The attitude here in Spokane is unity.

I would opine that it is not at all unlikely that many of us who do not agree with a particular term currently being used nor see the need for the additional letter on the gay and lesbian umbrella are apt to be in the group who DO NOT go to 'support group' meetings.  Let's face reality- many of those of us who share the viewpoint I subscribe to tend to be post-op and have had life in order for many years.

I think the last one of those sorts of meetings I went to might have been in '97...

valerie, do you desire integration or assimilation?

I am not willing to loose myself in the process of transition. I nearly did so to the gatekeepers and I will not repeat that mistake. Giving up half of my life to hide what I went through is giving up half of myself. Surviving my past is a symbol of great strength - something I can be proud of. If the past is not accepted - not just because we ourselves chose a different path, but because we feel it is not accepted by our surroundings - it becomes instead a burden.

Quite a lot of research have found psychosocial function to correlate with openness. Of course this has nothing to do with you - I cannot and shall not make any statements in this regard - and what is right for one person may not be right for another. We obviously have each our own reasons for the choices we make.

while it is true that many tgirls after surgery will tend to go stealth, it is also true that just as many girls after surgery decides not too.

For me, i really do not have a desire to go stealth; which is fine and my own path. To be honest I have been blessed more being open transgender than stealth but again this is my own path.

Many people will think it would be crazy not to go stealth in my profession (religion) but I found that it opens more doors for me being an LGBT activist.

But everyone's journies are different.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 07:33:23 AM
Transsexual folks early in their transitions desiring integration with society need to consider this before blindly following what may be perceived as the easier, more supportive path to transition, and instead step out on your own and make your own way. We each have to ask ourselves, do we desire integration or not? Do we want an asterisk next to our gender or an "O"? What are your goals in life for yourself, your dreams?

Supporting the cause of the LGB community is honorable. Attaching T to it comes with a cost.

hear, hear  :eusa_clap:

I fit under the LGB umbrella precisely BECAUSE I am a lesbian.  If not for that, I would have little to do with them other than read the occasional news article simply because I would have as little interest in that as I would, say, domestic versus foreign wheat futures.  I would not be aligning with them politically simply by virtue of a birth defect/medical condition.   

I'm old enough that remember all the 'transgender' clamor that those of us who were essentially woodworked were 'harming' the 'cause' (whatever the eff the 'cause' might be).  There is still the overly vocal group that maintains that anyone who had their birth defect addressed via medical information should be public about who they are.  Did not agree with it back then and do not agree with it now. 

I agree with the united we stand part.
Here is where I am in the spectrum of LGBT. I was the L for over 20 years and now moved to the T but as a heterosexual male. I struggle to see where I fit in at this point. I know when I go to FTM meetings locally I am in the minority on many levels, if there are 20 people at the meeting 3 of us will be heterosexual males the rest bi or gay men. We all go out after the meetings and have a drink those of us that are the smaller group sit together and have discussed how do we fit in here. The fact that we are all also older, 40+, makes our issue difficult because we have all been part of the lesbian community for 20+ years and now we feel lost from what was our "home base".  I do not know how or if I fit in the community but I know that we need to be in the alphabet mix in order to move our rights forward.
Maybe it's not as much about fitting in in the end and more about moving forward?
Cheers Myles

Quote from: myles on June 26, 2011, 09:19:30 AM
I agree with the united we stand part.
Here is where I am in the spectrum of LGBT. I was the L for over 20 years and now moved to the T but as a heterosexual male. I struggle to see where I fit in at this point. I know when I go to FTM meetings locally I am in the minority on many levels, if there are 20 people at the meeting 3 of us will be heterosexual males the rest bi or gay men. We all go out after the meetings and have a drink those of us that are the smaller group sit together and have discussed how do we fit in here. The fact that we are all also older, 40+, makes our issue difficult because we have all been part of the lesbian community for 20+ years and now we feel lost from what was our "home base".  I do not know how or if I fit in the community but I know that we need to be in the alphabet mix in order to move our rights forward.
Maybe it's not as much about fitting in in the end and more about moving forward?
Cheers Myles

Exactly. It is about moving forward :)

To be T in LGBT is not a naughty word. I am somewhat in your boat with this. I only see good things having the T in LGBT because it promotes unity in spite of persecution.

We had a Sexuality class in my Graduate school last semester and a good portion was concerning transgender studies. Studies had shown (based on trans surveys and interviews) the following (which I found to be very interesting):

Around 80% of trans people have no issues with the LGBT spectrum
The majority of trans people who who do not want the T in LGBT are Male to Female Lesbians
The majority of trans people who are fine with the LGBT spectrum are Female to Male (all sexual identities and orientations)

The most passionate trans people who voice an opposition on transgender labels (such us "transgender vs transexual" etc etc) are Male to Female trans
Female to Male trans people, for the most part in the survey, really was not bothered by the labels.

The Majority of trans people who felt they were threatened or taken advantage of by the LGB were Male to Female Trans
Of those Male to Female Trans, it was inconclusive which sexual orientation felt threatened by the LGB.

I did a similiar survey on my facebook and my blog and the result were darn near identical.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 01:54:47 PM
I dont know about the majority but I am heterosexual, dating men exclusively. As a heterosexual woman, I dont see why the LGB organizations attorneys and lobbies should represent folks like me or push for legal changes for me, since I am not gay.

Then you represent the minority factor :)

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 01:54:47 PM
I dont see why the LGB organizations attorneys and lobbies should represent folks like me or push for legal changes for me, since I am not gay.

I am more the: Hey here are some people willing to help! COOL!-type.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 02:25:26 PM
I think it is cool too, to have help. I just wonder what the motivation and if there is a cost. If the lobby pushes for gender variance and expression, how does that help the transsexual person who just wants to change their sex? It comes back to the binary vs. variant argument.

(I'm talking about this from a USA-centric view)

The problem is that you probably won't ever be able to make all the bigots change their views of what makes a person male or female.

Not everyone would agree, for instance, that surgery does - and they would argue about *what* surgical technique actually changes sex.  Others would say it's chromosomes.  Others would say it's what you are born looking like.  Others would say it's based on gender expression, and not separate from it.

Sure, you could pass a law, but chances are it would hurt the people who don't fit neatly into the categories defined, or are pushed into a category they don't like (for instance, what if chromosomes become the test?).

In the end, the need for lawyers and lobbyists is to create laws that protect people.  The law that protects the intersexed person can also protect the person who is absolutely, definitely female, but wasn't considered female by their doctor at birth - if the law is done right, and not just passed by intersexed people who want to distance themselves from people who have had SRS.  Likewise, a law saying that post-op women are women could be drafted in either an inclusive or exclusive way - it could be used as a weapon against no-ops, intersexed people, pre-ops, and people who don't identify as male or female ("When you are a woman, you can use this bathroom.  Until then, get lost.").

That's probably the biggest reason for working together.  To make sure that some people don't get fight for rights at the expense of everyone else's rights.  Thank goodness many of the people who are LG & B have raised a stink about leaving T out of ENDA - despite the fact that the #1 argument being used to keep it from passing is that "we'll have men in dresses in your young girl's bathroom" (note that the bigots opposing ENDA would likely consider someone who has had SRS to be a "man in a dress" with no business in any bathroom, regardless of the state of that person's genitals).  And thank goodness that some cross-dressers, among many others, were willing to stand up to the police at Stonewall - something that has helped far more people than just cross-dressers.

I have a lot of background in the disability rights movement, and I've seen that the laws that have helped people (rehabilitation act, IDEA, ADA) are generally very inclusive, much more inclusive than even the lawmakers writing them and the lobbyists promoting them were expecting.  Heck, my favorite amendment is the 14th - the only amendment that gave women anything beyond the right to vote, yet, ironically, one of the biggest reasons some legislators opposed it is that they felt giving blacks citizenship would imply that women were equal to men.  And when we work together with people who don't oppose us, we make better laws.  We end up with inclusive ADA laws, not ADA laws that focus on physical accessibility only.

Do you have data that shows how race effects the results of that survey?

it didn't break it down by race :(

Quote from: Annah on June 26, 2011, 06:07:49 PM
it didn't break it down by race :(

what about sampling methodology?  was significant discussion devoted to that component of the article?

Question: For those who desire to separate, how many live with discrimination, bigotry, hatred, etc because they are TG?

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 07:03:40 PM
Oh, another thing before I go my merry way... about being a minority. Minority yes, because post SRS is not a goal of the T community overall though it is the ideal in most cases for MtF women. But challenging to achieve.

Some transsexual MtF folks who now support the advocacy of the LGB that are pre and mid transition will, in some cases, complete their transitions with SRS. Once they do, will they still desire lobby efforts by LGB organizations representing their rights as women? Just asking those people to think further down the line of their lives about what might be in their best interest.


p.s. you guys and gals are so patient with me, thanks :)

Hey Valerie

The Survey stated that those they interviewed,  60% of the transwomen interviewed were post operative, 30% were pre operative who is taking HRT and seeing a Therapist or who had received their srs papers and non ops, and 10% were transwomen who were still in the closet and had not taken any steps towards transition.

70% of the survey for transmen were post op for their top halves (hysterectomy were included in this), 25% were transmen who were receiving HRT and therapy, 5% were transmen who were post op on top and bottom. Nothing was giving considering transmen still in the closet who hadn't started transition

@Ann Onymous

The survey was taken in the U.S. and Canada. While it did not have stats on other countries, they did mentioned that other countries where persecution of trans people were involved they worked alongside the LGB "underground"

Quote from: Annah on June 27, 2011, 11:59:33 AM
@Ann Onymous

The survey was taken in the U.S. and Canada. While it did not have stats on other countries, they did mentioned that other countries where persecution of trans people were involved they worked alongside the LGB "underground"

But that does not speak to the actual methodology.  In other words, if it was a self-selection response, then it really is not even statistically valid.  If it was done through various support groups, then it becomes self-selection in an even narrower context...

With so many of the older generation of trans folks woodworked there is no way we could get a survey or poll that would be accurate.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 27, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
With so many of the older generation of trans folks woodworked there is no way we could get a survey or poll that would be accurate.

but yet the 'younger generation' apparently feels no compunction about claiming that the majority are in favor of the term du jour and has absolutely no qualms about seeking to 'other' us...

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 27, 2011, 12:54:16 PM
But that does not speak to the actual methodology.  In other words, if it was a self-selection response, then it really is not even statistically valid.  If it was done through various support groups, then it becomes self-selection in an even narrower context...

The surveys were handed to Clinics, support groups, therapists and some were done by post graduate students asking various transpeople if they could be interviewed.

So not it wasn't a self-selection

Quote from: cynthialee on June 27, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
With so many of the older generation of trans folks woodworked there is no way we could get a survey or poll that would be accurate.

for those in stealth, i believe they were contacted by their formal therapists and current General Practioners

I would need to grab ahold of it again to be 100% sure but I believe that's how they interviewed girls in stealth if I remember correctly

Val,
I haven't seen anyone advocate for a third gender marker other than a few voices. I highly doubt that any law maker here in the states would propose a law that recognises a third gender. That would be a little too far out for the people and not likly to garner votes at a reelection bid.

From where I am sitting there is no threat of being saddled with a 3rd gender status.
Although my spouse would be thrilled to have 'other' on hir ID card, personaly I would not like that one bit.
I am in a bit of a mental quandry over the entire subject of 3rd gender designations on ID's. I would hate it on my ID but I would be so happy if Sevan could have that. Ze is only ever recognised as ze see hirself in trans groups and amongst a few close cisgender friends.
I am torn on this one big time.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 27, 2011, 01:10:39 PM
Would anyone be in favor of a permanent asterisk next to their gender marker or an O as their marker for the rest of their life?

I don't see a reason for an asterisk, that would be a stigma. On the other hand if you ask me whether I will prefer people to accept me as transsexual and woman: no doubt. It's quite interesting, but today it is other people girl-ing me, not myself. I just relax and enjoy. For instance in one of my clinical trials the nurse advisor made sure to tell me that I didn't have to tell my colleagues I am transgender and in another trial their worst fear was that I wouldn't be able to keep myself quiet among my patients, which is of course no problem, because there are professional reasons to do so.
I know women who are several years post-up, who was prohibited from telling colleagues or anyone else about their past. THAT would be my fear.

I experienced the same within my own family: It's no problem you are a girl, but do not tell ANYBODY you were ever different :)
Not too long ago we went to some family festival and my mother wanted me in a sundress to match her. She made a fuzz about my legs, wanted me in tights, but it was 25 C or something so I refused and she went on "You don't want anyone noticing do you?" You should have seen her reaction when I said "No problem, if they do I'll just tell them I am transgender. After all I joined a flash mob for versatility the day before." "B, b, but, maybe WE don't want that.", she said.

I am openly transgender, but people seem to go out of their way girl-ing me now :) All of my classmates. About a month ago I even had a teacher take me to the side apologizing for using the phrase "Ladies and gentlemen" a week earlier. It's an all girls class and she felt sorry for hurting me. How sweet is that :)

The first 1,5 years was nightmare for one, because I had to go by male name 11 months before a legal name change was allowed, but now? My school and classmates CARRY me forward.

Not really.

Quote from: Annah on June 26, 2011, 01:40:40 PM
Exactly. It is about moving forward :)

To be T in LGBT is not a naughty word. I am somewhat in your boat with this. I only see good things having the T in LGBT because it promotes unity in spite of persecution.

We had a Sexuality class in my Graduate school last semester and a good portion was concerning transgender studies. Studies had shown (based on trans surveys and interviews) the following (which I found to be very interesting):

Around 80% of trans people have no issues with the LGBT spectrum
The majority of trans people who who do not want the T in LGBT are Male to Female Lesbians
The majority of trans people who are fine with the LGBT spectrum are Female to Male (all sexual identities and orientations)

The most passionate trans people who voice an opposition on transgender labels (such us "transgender vs transexual" etc etc) are Male to Female trans
Female to Male trans people, for the most part in the survey, really was not bothered by the labels.

The Majority of trans people who felt they were threatened or taken advantage of by the LGB were Male to Female Trans
Of those Male to Female Trans, it was inconclusive which sexual orientation felt threatened by the LGB.

I did a similiar survey on my facebook and my blog and the result were darn near identical.

Annah, I can tell you why this is.

Trans women are often mistaken for gay men. Trans men may be mistaken for lesbians.

In modern American culture, lesbians are not fully accepted or understood - lesbian sex isn't seen as "real sex," lesbians are seen as "just needing a real man" (or cruder formulations) to straighten them back out. However, lesbians are not seen as threatening or icky. Most people are not grossed out by imagining lesbian sex; most straight men are turned on by it. Being seen as a lesbian isn't scary unless you're attracted to men, and even then it doesn't really trigger any deep-seated horror, just a mild fear of invisibility and unattractiveness.

Gay men, on the other hand, are still objects of hate and disgust and fear. People are alternately threatened and revolted by us. The negative stereotypes surrounding gay men include effeminacy, of course, but also a whole lot of other horrible things like that we're filthy sex-addicted drug-abusing serial-rapist ->-bleeped-<--eating disease factories. We're not any of those things, and most people who aren't consciously extreme bigots will intellectually acknowledge that we're not any of those things, but emotionally, those associations are damn near impossible to break. A lot of the mental and physical health issues in the gay male community can be traced back to the fact that we can't even get rid of those associations for ourselves; we have internalized deep feelings of shame and worthlessness and we act them out in dangerous ways.

And a trans woman, especially if she's feminine from the beginning, spends much of her life fighting off accusations (internal and external) that she's a gay man. This is even more true if she's a lesbian. "I'm not gay!" she screams. And she throws herself into hypermasculine presentation and behaviour trying to prove her not-gayness. And then eventually it all becomes too much and she comes out, only to find that she's now thrust in a political coalition with...gay men. "I'm not gay!" she screams again. "I'm not transgender! I'm not a drag queen! I'm not anything like them! I'm transsexual...I'm just a woman."

And she's right. She's just a woman. What she doesn't realize is that the pain and discrimination she's felt all her life, from when she was young and taunted for being gay to when she came out and was once again taunted or threatened or even murdered for being gay, isn't just because she's mistaken for a gay man. It's because she's mistaken for a gay man and people hate, fear, and loathe gay men. But she doesn't realize this - she thinks it's natural to be viscerally terrified of being mistaken for a gay man, because inside, despite her intellectual belief in GLB equality, she still remembers those messages society sent her about gay men. And when she screams "I'm normal, I'm just a woman," she's really screaming "I'm not one of those weird hypersexual drag-wearing dirty disease-ridden homos!" It's the same thing the assimilationist "straight-acting" gay men are trying to say. Some damn near say it outright in their blog posts, while others have a more coded way of putting it, but the message is the same.

It doesn't work, though. People aren't going to believe you, as long as you're insisting that you're a member of a group with higher social privilege than the one they've mentally put you in. The fact of trans women being mistaken for gay men isn't going to just go away, whether or not the political coalition is dissolved, because the fact is that as children trans girls and gay cis boys are nearly indistinguishable, and as adults you're both still people born in male bodies who do some things that are assigned as "womanly." That's not the fault of the political coalition. As long as gay men are hated, trans women who disclose will be in danger, because you're getting the secondary effects of hate directed toward another group - and bigots don't believe people who insist on a higher level of privilege than the bigot wants to assign to them.

What the coalition can do - what it needs to do, and the reason it needs to exist - is to make every colour in the GLBT rainbow socially acceptable. Trans women wn't have to live in fear of being murdered when and only when gay men don't have to live in fear of being murdered. That's a simple fact. And then, when we're all about equally acceptable, it's not going to be such a big deal to correct people who make the wrong assumption. Just as a gay trans man now, like myself, can fairly comfortably say "I'm not a lesbian, I'm a gay man," a trans woman in a world where gay men weren't hated would be able to say "I'm not a gay man, I'm a woman." And people would believe you. And you would be safe.

Kyril,
bullseye!

Valerie, I think that our own fears are often our worst enemies. It was a huge step for me, when I started transition - took me ten years from the day I was sure about my gender issue to I started doing anything serious about them, in fact, but the world still stands and the smoke has gone.

There are several reasons why I don't think the LGBT-cause will have the results you fear

1. Even though marriage and registered partnerships have almost exactly the same consequences legally gay marriage is probably the single most wanted right within the LGB-community. One of the strongest arguments is that society should treat everybody equally and not have separate laws splitting the people based on their sexual orientation.

The hot issues in Sweden (and soon in Denmark too) is that everybody should be allowed to be recognized in their preferred gender. Othering would contradict, what we actually work for and it would contradict the history of LGB politics as well.


2. A lot of stuff is going on in these areas within the European Union right now. The commissioner of human rights issued a paper stating that it is in accordance with human rights to acknowledge the preferred gender of a transsexual and that medical procedures should not be forced upon anyone for this reason. The committee of ministers issued a report stating that no european countries ought to keep unnecessary registers of their citizens gender identity, sexual orientation or religion. Just recently a report from the council of europe backed the two others stating once again that it is a human right for every person to have their gender identity legally recognized.

So far it seems that we are not moving in the direction you fear.


3. Visibility is about making room to be yourself without fear to disclose when, where or if you want. It is about enhancing your possibilities and making gender (and sexual) variation a natural part of the surroundings.

For instance consider Thailand. My sister-in-law has been the most fantastic support you can imagine. To her being a transsexual is nothing special - she is so used to us from her home country. What more can I wish?

But you are not part of the LGBT.
You do not have anything to do with them.

Certainly you can not be objecting to the free willed choices of others?

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 27, 2011, 05:09:00 PM
But I am just a woman. I am not gay!! I'm really, really not. Being attached to LGB just says, yes I am. I am part of LGB and will always be (according to your views)  :icon_no:. It says you'll never be the same as other women (to me). Even if I have a vagina, breasts and look just like any other woman.

I believe you that you're just a woman. I really, truly do.

But being in a coalition with LGB doesn't mean that you are LGB. Lesbians are in LGBT too, but they're not gay men, nor are they necessarily trans*. They just share common goals with gay men, bisexuals, and trans people. And straight trans women - whether you believe it or not - share common goals with lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals. It doesn't mean you are one of us, or that we believe you are one of us. Just that we have common needs and goals.

Straight trans women and gay men have the shared, completely understandable common need to not be murdered because someone thinks we're gay. You (trans women) are not going to get that by simply splitting off and insisting that you're nothing like gay men, even though it's true. The bigots think you're lying. They think you transitioned to trick them. They think all gay men are disease-ridden sex-crazed perverts who want nothing more than to to rape children and straight men, and trans women are just gay men who dress up and take hormones to fool straight men into sleeping with them, to rape them by deception, to turn them gay. That's their thought process when they find out you're trans. It has nothing to do with the political alliance, and everything to do with straight up homophobia.

The bathroom panic is the same thing. They don't really understand or believe in same-sex attraction and love. Their perception of gay men is that we're deluded, lust-filled, sex-crazed perverts who are out to rape anything and everything. And a trans woman in a women's bathroom, in their eyes, is just one of those gay perverts who wants access to their little girls. And when you tell them that's not true - that you're not gay, that you're a woman, that you're straight, that you have no interest in little girls - they don't believe you. They won't believe you, because in their worldview, you have every reason to lie. In their worldview, being a gay man is a terrible, terrible thing and anyone would deny it, even if it means claiming to be a woman. They would sure as hell deny it (see: Larry Craig).

Trans women aren't murdered just because people think you're gay men. You're murdered because people think you're gay men and that gay men are subhuman and deserve to be murdered. The truth is that neither is correct; you're not gay men and nobody deserves to be murdered. But we have to attack the "deserve to be murdered" part before the "not gay men" part, because as long as the bigots believe that some group of people is subhuman and worthy of death, they're also going to believe that they get to define the boundaries of that group, because nobody they believe is in it can be trusted, because you're subhuman and worthy of death. It's circular, but it's how it works.

In societies where Jews are persecuted, atheists and Christians with Jewish relatives don't get anywhere by claiming that they aren't Jewish. It's true - they aren't Jewish. But when the bigots are in power, they make the definitions, and "truth" doesn't enter into it.

I'm sorry, but we are right back to the same old arguements.

Lets call it a draw, and get on with life.

The reality is no matter how we identify, no matter who we want to be associated with, no matter how we present - mainstream society will decide for themselves who and what we are and any changes in that perception will happen slowly and over a long period of time.  Even if we all, right here, right now, agreed with each other about this debate, it would have practically zero effect on how the world would perceive us.

The best thing any of us can do is educate those within our own lives.  They are the ones who matter most right now.  As a group, be it a trans-only or LGBT group, we can tackle larger challenges.  And it will be the groups that will have the most impact on society.

To the best of my knowledge, the National Center for Transgender Equality, probably the most active and vocal TG group in the U.S., is walking hand-in-hand with LGB groups.  And LGB groups, despite any earlier resistance, has included the T as being part of their community. 

I can't see any debate here or on any other forum having any effect on changing that.  From where I sit, this inclusion has had a far more reaching and positive impact on how T people are perceived than if we tried to go it alone.  We can argue this here until we're blue in the face but that fact will not change.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 28, 2011, 06:56:17 AM
By their nature, heterosexual and homosexual are strongly repelled by each other.

This is false.

Heterosexuals aren't repelled by homosexuals "by nature".

Homophobia isn't some "natural state" of the heterosexual.

Heterosexism is nurture.

So is Cissexism.

Those who wish to woodwork and can by all means should do so. Living a life of scrutiny is not for everyone.

But I do believe that those of us who are visable serve to demystify our existance. By being visable we give a point of referance to those who know us. By living our lives productivly and with love demonstrates that we are just as capable of being valuable members of society, just like anyone else.

If every one of us went deep stealth there would be no one to provide an example to the world that we are not deviants when the bigots start spouting off their hate messages against us.

Quote from: kyril on June 27, 2011, 03:50:46 PM
Trans women are often mistaken for gay men. (...) Gay men, on the other hand, are still objects of hate and disgust and fear. People are alternately threatened and revolted by us.

This was a very interesting post Kyril. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

I do think homophobia and transphobia may some times be intertwinned, but I think it may operate on different planes too.

I remember in the beginning of my transition one of my neighbors explicitly said "Tippe, you are making MY balls shrink!". I take this as a statement that my transgressing gender boundaries made him insecure about his own position in the gender spectrum. What he had always taken for granted - the sex/gender binary - was suddenly confronted by my rejection of my ascribed gender. He was thereby forced to consider whether his own position was full filling to him too.

That is different from how you explained homophobia.

Quote from: kyril on June 27, 2011, 03:50:46 PM
Annah, I can tell you why this is.

Oh you are preaching to the choir. I completely agree with you! I have very similar beliefs as to why we should be in the LGB spectrum and your other post was also spot on!

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 28, 2011, 06:56:17 AM
By their nature, heterosexual and homosexual are strongly repelled by each other.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 28, 2011, 09:44:14 AM
I think it is fair to say that it is distasteful, to say the least, for both straight and gay people to imagine being intimate with each other. Phobias aside, gay people are strongly turned off with the idea of sex with straight people.

Ok. I've pretty much sat on the sidelines for a lot of the discussions over the last few months and avoided getting involved, one or two minor posts notwithstanding. But this is just too much. I'm sorry Valerie, but in the above you are just flat out wrong, and you are perpetuating damaging, outdated stereotypes by saying these things. I could go into a long and convoluted post with plenty of disclaimers about minority positions and discussing how much those above viewpoints appear prevalent because of the way mainstream society has been coached to react to homosexuality since the late 19th century, but I just don't have the time, or the inclination, to get into this on that level.

People are strongly turned off by a lot of things. For instance, I'm strongly turned off by the idea of my parents having sex. Very strongly. In fact, I wish I weren't contemplating the idea right now. But that doesn't mean I can't love my parents, and be happy for them, and think it's cute when they hold hands and cuddle and kiss - I think they're adorable, and I love that my dad loves his wife, even though I reallyreally don't want to think about anything beyond what they do in public.

(applies brain bleach)

Anyway, there are lots of couples whose sexual activity would totally turn me off. Older folks, thirteen-year-olds, people I find particularly unattractive, lesbians, my family, my ex-husband and his new girlfriend. But I don't hate them or fear them or want them to stop being affectionate with each other or want to ban their relationships, and God knows I don't think they deserve to die for loving each other. I think most people would agree...except when it comes to gay men and trans women, who are the recipients of a special sort of socially-learned hate and fear.

Agreed.  Your experiences, outlook and presence has a great value.  At least to me.  And I'm sure that its almost stupid crazy hard.  Women are more accepting and I think are more sexually fluid (even if they protest that up one side and down the other) and seem to have less problem getting their heads around it. 

And I think that when Valerie said "by their nature, heterosexual and homosexual are strongly repelled by each other" she was speaking in strictly intimate and sexual sense.  They can - and do - get along great in life, but everyone -- EVERYONE -- has sexual stuff that they just freeze up and go Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww to.^*  And however that gets wired into us (and how the fetishes get wired in also) it's wired in damn hard, and those reactions are immediate and unconscious, no matter if's its what turns you on or off.  And lots of guys get the anti gay deal pounded in.  I can't think of another one that is so constantly, publicly, and culturally enforced as the no gay men deal.  Yes, lesbians are hot.  That's because the majority of porn consumed is consumed by men, and no where in the world is the "i don't even want to ever see another man's penis ever" more clearly illustrated than in the popularity of hot girl on girl action.

In societies where Jews are persecuted, atheists and Christians with Jewish relatives don't get anywhere by claiming that they aren't Jewish.
Oh hell yeah.  I bet far more straight guys get beat up for 'being gay' then gay guys do.

* - Here, read this list and tell me that your reactions are not immediate, and that some of that stuff would be an instant deal killer, no way, I'm not talking to you for another second now that you've told me that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handkerchief_code (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handkerchief_code)

Um, I feel the need to add here that a lot of gay men I know are very strongly attracted to straight men (as one of them expressed it once, "unreconstructed masculinity is a real turn-on!").

Quote from: Padma on June 28, 2011, 06:17:41 PM
Um, I feel the need to add here that a lot of gay men I know are very strongly attracted to straight men (as one of them expressed it once, "unreconstructed masculinity is a real turn-on!").

That is just sad fetishizing and sexual objectification of a person who does not apreciate it.

Personaly I find men who lust lesbians, gay guys who lust straight guys, straight girls who lust gay men ect ect to be down right creepy and inaproproriate.

Most of the gay men I know are gay because they like men.  Not men who act like girls, but big smelly men.  Likewise get rid of the stereotype of the dykes on bikes and you'll find most lesbians are highly fem, it's a male-free world after all.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 28, 2011, 06:20:33 PM
That is just sad fetishizing and sexual objectification of a person who does not apreciate it.

Personaly I find men who lust lesbians, gay guys who lust straight guys, straight girls who lust gay men ect ect to be down right creepy and inaproproriate.

Well, the only point I was making is that it goes on, not whether it's a good/bad thing, just that it's counter to what's been said above about there being no attraction.

To me, it's not automatically inappropriate/creepy. Sure, sometimes it's fetishising/objectification (just as it is with heterosexuals too), but sometimes it's just the standard "being attracted to someone and then finding out they're unavailable" situation that everyone goes through, but in this case because of sexual orientation. If you're a gay man who likes butch men, this is more likely to happen to you, and that's not creepy, it's just painful. Granted, if you only pursue people who you already know aren't going to be attracted to you, then that's pointless and inappropriate, whatever the reason.

Let's all remember that life is an enormous tapestry with variation everywhere, and try to refrain from attacking diversity and each other's opinions.  And on the matter of opinions, I understand that there are some pretty strong ones here, but can we please use some less inflammatory wording to convey them?  It's not doing anything but hurting other people's feelings.

I know several lesbian MTFs (post-op, not that it should matter) that have horrible stories of rejection from potential partners.  Granted that it's rare for a woman to go into "gay rage" and kill the partner, so there are clearly different dynamics, but I don't think it's that MTFs are seen as gay men, I think it's simpler than that: They are seen as men.  So, yes, an MTF who dates a man might be seen by some as gay, since a man who dates a man is seen as gay.  But the rejection that an MTF might get in some lesbian circles isn't because she's seen as gay, but rather because she's seen as a creepy straight guy.

Witness the whole womyn-born-womyn thing at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

I don't think never hearing transgender/transsexual and "gay" mentioned as part of a group will change this.

As for heterosexual/homosexual, I think a lot of that is because sexuality isn't quite so black and white.  I suspect a lot of people who are heterosexual hold *some* small amount of homosexual attraction/desire/etc.  That doesn't mean they want to sleep with another guy (if they are guys), but it does mean that some have huge self-denial things going on, and, thus, become violent at times.  I don't think it is as simple as "homosexuality and heterosexuality are opposed".  I think probably the majority of negative reactions associated with homophobia come not from people who aren't turned on by it, but rather by people who *ARE* turned on by homosexuality.  There's research to support this - look up "Is homophobia associated with sexual arousal?"

The solution to that problem?  As society learns that sexuality isn't neat little categories, things will get better.  Not just for the gays, but for plenty of straight people too.

I can speak as a person born into a male's body, with no desire to change that, and as someone who's only wanted sexual intimacy with women.  The biggest things I had to get over to date the person who's now my wife was simply ignorance.  I thought of an MTF person as "that crazy person" (yes, that has it's own layers of bigotry), and *because* most well adjusted MTF people live without too much social awareness [EDIT: What I mean is that many well adjusted MTF people don't stick out, and don't parade about as having transitioned, but rather simply live as their appropriate gender], the only people I knew who were MTF were people that I didn't think were very stable mentally.  Fortunately I knew some very outspoken intersexed people, even if I didn't know any outspoken T's (nor G's, L's, or B's - I grew up in the country where people like that supposedly don't exist).  It was the awareness of intersexed people that let me understand transgendered people - after all, the brain is just a different sex organ than the other parts, but just as important in determining a person's sex.

Of course plenty of intersexed people are quick to say, "I don't want anyone to think I'm trans.  I'm not like those..."  They worry that association with trans people will hurt them.  Ah, more minority politics - everyone thinks someone else has to lose for them to win.

I've since realized I'm hardly a stereotypical heterosexual male - but I suspect the stereotypical heterosexual male is a lot rarer than people think.  And I'm certainly in a long-term heterosexual relationship, with zero regrets.  But I've grown over time and understand that none of these traits - sexuality or gender - are quite as firmly defined as people might like.

I suspect fighting for the right thing ("Women are women, and shouldn't have to live with other labels," for instance) probably matters far more than avoiding politically associating with certain other groups.  I think that is more likely to accomplish something than insisting on separation is likely to accomplish.

i think one of the main issues here in the last few posts is that we are putting  black and white requirements to sexuality.

I do agree with Padma. Ive seen a gay man become romantically involved with a woman once. It doesn't necessarily make him bisexual or seeking out a fetish. Likewise, I have seen a gold star lesbian fall in love with a transman and Ive seen another gold star lesbian (i use the word gold star because they had never been with a man before) who had a relationship with a cisgendered male.

It happens and you cannot really dismiss these are even classify them as bisexual or something they were just experimenting with as a form of fetish. On campus we jokingly call these experiences "homo" and "hetero flexible."

We, as transgender people should understand that not all sexuality and gender identifications are cemented within their own definitions.

And the gay man who had the relationship with the woman is gay. He has never been with a woman since. The same is true with the two lesbian women.

Back in my male days I had 3 diferant women who were die hard lesbian fall in love with me. Married two of them and almost married the other.
I know that I have always been a woman and obviously it was my inner female spirit that drew these women too me but still I had (have) a male body and that must have definatly worked against me.

Valerie, with all due respect, I didn't come close to making a personal attack on you. I pointed something out about two particular things you said and I stand by it completely. So in more detail.....

You made the statement that by nature homosexuality and heterosexuality repel each other - your words. Repel, as in disgust, sicken, find offensive... pretty incendiary comment by any standard, that gay and straight peoples private actions disgust each other on a basic level. Understand me, I am not saying that there aren't people on both sides who feel like that. I'm saying that it's not the default majority opinion  'by nature'. Everyone has things that turn them on, make them go 'ewwww' and make them go 'meh'.Generally speaking, amongst gay and straight adults the reaction to the one they aren't is 'meh', from what I've seen. Not turned on, not retching. Neither uncomfortable or excited. It's not distasteful for me to imagine what the other side gets up to.... not always thought like that, but I grew out of being a young teenager. Most people I know are the same way. Not all; some get turned on too, and some feel a bit sick; but most.

Now, that spread doesn't even come close to covering the wide variety of reactions to various sexualities, and reasons for them, that I've come across. I've had conversations with gay men who don't get lesbian sex because ' it's not actually sex unless at least one penis is involved' (actual quote ). I know guys who got into violent fights as teenagers at the merest hint of suggesting they might be gay who are not only completely straight but now are totally happy to full on tongue kiss another man for a bet in full view of 500+ people without blinking. I can also think of some who absolutely squirm at the thought of anal sex, with either gender.... or what sex with another man would entail. Just like I can think of women who squirm at the thought of anal sex. Like I can think of a female friend who gags at the thought of oral sex on a woman... not because she is repelled by lesbianism, but because it's her biggest turn off. Girl on girl or guy on her, bring it up in conversation and watch her gag and turn green.

My point is that if someone is repulsed by a sexual act, the hetero or homosexual nature of the act or themselves shouldn't be first on the list of things to look at for reasons why they find it repulsive. And they certainly aren't inimical to each other.

Also, I never said the viewpoint that hetero and homosexuals find each other distasteful is prevalent.... I said it appears prevalent. Like it appears the world is flat because you can't see past the horizon. For an awful long time people in the west were told sex and sexuality were bad, sinful, to be indulged in reluctantly for procreation if at all.... and that has shaped attitudes for a long long time. Still does strongly for some people. It's part of the root of why homosexuality as a bad thing found its way into our society - if sex is for procreation and sinful and wicked even when for that purpose, then sex without the chance of that is even more sinful and wicked was the almost logic used. And that used to get drilled into us by every means possible for generations. When homosexuals were reluctantly accepted by the moral majority as actually existing, the teaching became even more focused. Unless you hate it, you must be gay. You have to find it repulsive or else there is something wrong with you. So even if you don't have a problem with it, you say you do if it comes up.

And that is where the idea that it's a natural state for homosexuality and heterosexuality to be repellant to each other comes from, rather than the much more logical concept that if something doesn't turn you on, in most cases it just... won't turn you on. Thats the stereotype, and there are a lot of people who are lost in it, and it will take generations more to fade away from being considered the norm. For the same reason it appears so prevalent - it's been a part of us for a very long time, and the people who are really invested in the whole deal are very, very loud. And publish a lot, and speak out a lot, and make it so that 9 out of every 10 things you can find on the subject are about how gay sex is bad, even when 70+% of people are fine with gay marriage. At least until very recently thats the mess everyone was raised in.

And it's something that you, in what you said that I took issue with, are doing a little bit to keep alive and kicking. Not, I think, out of deliberate malice or anything close. Just because of your experiences, as a part of the circus and your experiences with the people you make part of your life who have also been subject to the same pressures. And I'm not negating  or questioning any of those experiences with what I said. I'm saying they spring from a false premise we've all been fed to some extent during our lives.

So no, I don't think it's fair to say that it's greatly distasteful for gay and straight people to imagine being intimate with each other, at least any differently than they would find imagining being intimate with someone of their preffered sex who was unattractive distasteful. And I in no way agree that it's the natural state of things that they automatically strongly repel each other. Apparently not agreeing with you on this and calling you on it amounts to a personal attack?

And since you asked, I've been bringing up why people are gay or straight with them for a long long time now. Asking awkward questions is something that came natural to me, and in the majority of cases? Well they don't have sex with people they aren't physically attracted to because they aren't attracted to them whether they are gay, straight or bi, not because they viscerally dislike the other option. And their emotional reaction to being in an intimate encounter or getting fondled by someone they aren't into really doesn't vary dependent on their gender.

One of the reasons transgender has the negative stigma it does is the visualization of surgically altering your sex organs is repulsive, horrific and/or unimaginable for many people.  It is simply taboo.  And it conjures up the belief anyone who willfully and knowingly has or even wants to alter their sex organs must be insane.

In the early stages of the ENDA campaign, gay and lesbians alike felt the proposed bill should exclude transgender.  "We'll come back and get you later."  When I was in the process of spreading my wings I frequented a couple of nearby gay bars.  I met many gay guys who, before getting to know me, hated transgender people.  But they didn't know any before meeting me.  I befriended a lesbian and we became very close but even she admitted she had a problem seeing me dressed as Julie.  She preferred my male self.  And my experiences are not uncommon.  The average person simply has a problem with transgender people and most of that comes from conditioning.

When Barney Frank seemingly had no problem excluding trans people from ENDA I was shocked.  I thought a gay politician would have had been educated enough to realize how hopeless it would be for trans people to ever gain protections against discrimination if they had to do it alone.  But there he was, leading the ENDA charge and tossing us aside in the process.  He, and most LGB people, didn't want the stink of the T on the ENDA bill.

That's one of the reasons I'm happy we are now seen as an integral part of the LGBT community.  And, as I have said before, it just makes sense to be included because the T is one of our commonalities.  But all that aside, I'm not the least bit surprised when some people express revulsion toward certain forms of sex and revisions of genitalia.  Isn't that visualization primary in the reaction some people have?  What I often wonder is why they even go there.  Like Kyril said about his parents having sex, you just don't think about it.  But some people won't let go of those mental images and they are typically the ones who campaign the hardest to prevent passage of any laws that will give people like us the same rights as everyone else.

Kia Ora,

::) Correct me if I'm wrong[it has happened  ;)], but it would seem this issue seems to be predominantly a US issue, else where in the world we[ gay and trans] tend to be "one big happy family" ...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on June 29, 2011, 11:36:30 PMCorrect me if I'm wrong[it has happened  ;)], but it would seem this issue seems to be predominantly a US issue, else where in the world we[ gay and trans] tend to be "one big happy family" ...

Our culture here in the US is based on creating foes and fighting them.  We also believe everyone should live the way we want them to because we are always right.  All we're trying to do is help you realize just how great we are and how right we were all along.  It's a curse to be perfect!

Actually it's just a political thing in the United States because these issues have important political components and consequences in the United States, and the political system is the only system we use to do such things.  Therefore there are a lot of people writing about it in that kind of style and tone.  In social and cultural settings its never really brought up because the only people who really care about that stuff are home fixing everything on the internet and not out in society being social at all.  If they even have the capacity to be social.

else where in the world we[ gay and trans] tend to be "one big happy family" ...

Actually pretty much outside of the First World gay and trans are not one big happy family, they are persecuted, and not organized.  In fact, else where in the world most of the people live in the third world and these are not problems that concern them at all.

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 30, 2011, 09:04:52 AM
Our culture here in the US is based on creating foes and fighting them.  We also believe everyone should live the way we want them to because we are always right.  All we're trying to do is help you realize just how great we are and how right we were all along.  It's a curse to be perfect!

You are soooo right on this!!! LOL Love it!

And we'll go all Shock and Awe on you if you think we're wrong.