Intertwining of Church and State

[Susan]

Separation of church and state is important. In my view many if not all religions are about the control of the lives of their membership. This is in direct opposition to the principles our country was founded on. The English settlers who came to this country did so fleeing the state church of King George. They saw what could happen to their freedoms when the church was the state. That is why they enshrined in our  constitution the principle of separation. In one of my postings on the old boards I had this little gem from The Federalist #10 by James Madison

Complaints are everywhere heard from our most considerate and virtuous citizens, equally the friends of public and private faith, and of public and personal liberty, that our governments are too unstable, that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority. However anxiously we may wish that these complaints had no foundation, the evidence, of known facts will not permit us to deny that they are in some degree true.  

This is exactly the issue we face today. With the religious conservatives trying to impose their view their version government on the secular and non-christians.

Author and educator George Grant was Executive Director of Coral Ridge Ministries for many years. He explains in The Changing of the Guard, Biblical Principles for Political Action:

Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness.

But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice.

It is dominion we are after. Not just influence.

It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time.

It is dominion we are after.

World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ.
- Theocracy Watch

All you have to do to see their latest front is to open your paper and read the articles and news coverage on the attempt by Bill Frist to remove the last vestiges the power the minority party has to block the Republican steamroller from their attack on the last independent branch of government. Yes the political party in control of the Legislative and Executive branches of our government wants to gain control of the only stopgap to their agenda, the Judicial branch. Believe me if this happens Justice would no longer be blind.

They accomplish this not from some populist mandate not from an overwhelming request from the population. Instead they count on apathy and lethargy.

Two great examples of this come from Pat Robertson's own words.

In his book The Millennium he said "With the apathy that exists today, a well organized minority can influence the selection of candidates to an astonishing degree."

Two years later he said to say.

"We want...as soon as possible to see a majority of the Republican Party in the hands of pro-family Christians..."  

These are not mainstream views and they are not mainstream candidates they are the fringe but they have the control and the power over the Republican party. They also have no compunction about using deliberate falsehoods to advance their agenda after all being on Gods side he will forgive them or so they believe.

The only way to reverse this is to take a direct interest and take back the control of our nation and of the political parties from the religious fundamentalists. Call and write your elected representatives. Make political contributions. Lastly let your views be known.

Several excellent websites to keep track of what these people are up to are listed below.

Theocracy Watch
The Electronic Freedom Foundation
Americans United for Separation of Church and State
People for the American Way
Alliance for Justice
Interfaith Alliance
Americans for Religious Liberty

[Svetlana]

... and doubtless, any such country would be tagged part of some axis of evil and earmarked for regime change. 

[4years]

From where I sit in this so called 'new world' I'm not so sure there is a place to flee too.
That however is, I think, rather typical of any country. The grass is always greener as it were.

I don't think (note this is pointless speculation, of course) that any one religion will triumph forever because eventually everyone dies and values change. ( "Death is the price we pay for progress." - The Dr. to Maren. Dr. Who, 'The Brain of Morbius' ). Be that as it may however it might be a while before this land is what it should be.

Interesting times we live in.

[Sandi]

The retoric of Coral Ridge Ministries, Pat Robertson etc is nothing new and is ignorance of the founders principles of religious freedom. They and others like them have been assuming they are the one true voice since the Revolution and Reform of 1776. If you read the entire link Susan supplied, it ends with [emphasis mine]:

The influence of factious leaders may kindle a flame within their particular States, but will be unable to spread a general conflagration through the other States.

A religious sect may degenerate into a political faction in a part of the Confederacy; but the variety of sects dispersed over the entire face of it must secure the national councils against any danger from that source. A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; in the same proportion as such a malady is more likely to taint a particular county or district, than an entire State.

In the extent and proper structure of the Union, therefore, we behold a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government. And according to the degree of pleasure and pride we feel in being republicans, ought to be our zeal in cherishing the spirit and supporting the character of Federalists. (The Federalist #10 by James Madison)[/list]

So thankfully today the religious sects are even more diverse than in the time of the reformation. But we must watch them like hawks, while allowing them their freedome of speach and practice of religion. We must allow them to practice their religions on either side of the wall of separation, but feverently disallow establishment.

Note to Susan: You probably have noticed that I have moved a lot closer to you on this subject. Chalk it up to many hours spent reading the Thomas Jefferson Digital Archives at the University of Virginia (yet I'm hardly halfway through). There was a Jefferson quote that sadly I can't find this morning but parphrased is somthing like: The church will alway have to be "dragged along" to accept the principles of Religious Freedoms.


Sandi

[Kendall]

After reading this post I am not sure what action to take. Very theoretic and a play of logic, but I am trying to see the practical application of such theories. Theories, if not applied die. Observations, facts, goals, and direction; if no answers and solutions are presented become meaningless.

So what do I do, throw rocks at my christian neighbor's house.

burn down the local church.

burn crosses covered with blood and ripped up female attire.

or go burn my bra at the capital steps (too valuable)

attend a christian hating muslim extemist church

Ok enough extremes.

Practically I will watch tv, moan and groan about this and that policy. Go vote for the candidates that I like or agree with. And when religious people come speaking to me, say my opinion, they say theirs, then part with no change.

Just looking for practical solutions to this stated great evil.