Lies and self-image issues...

[AbraCadabra]

Why would it be such a powerful trade with the female part of the species?

Lying, to oneself, to one's spouse, to friends, girl- and boy-friends, on the web, the list goes on and on.

I have (as usual) my own ideas about this, as a lie well told – one got away with it – is a kind of power-trip, alas a power-trip for the possessors of low self-image.
How great to 'feel' you fooled someone 'above' you? I guess rather good... or?

What would you say?

Axélle
PS: "outing oneself" so as not to lie, actually was the last thing on my mind...
OMG, am I such an innocent? 

[Annah]

I posed this question with my ethics and therapy professor.

A little background on this: I am stealth now in every aspect of my life except for dating. I will still tell a person who wants to be romantically involved I am trans before it even gets to the point of anything more serious.

However, with my profession, I am in stealth and I have been lying on a few issues of my life. I was troubled by this and I emailed my professor.

Here is what he had stated to me and I hope this helps:

Hi Annah:  You raise a very sensitive issue here. I guess I'd approach it from the perspective that protecting your privacy is the first value and sometimes a discretionary response is indicated.

You can't always know in advance when you have inadvertantly set in motion a line of inquiry that threatens to "out" you unintentionally, as you illustrate here.

It is good that you are bothered by misrepresenting yourself, especially when you also try to be an advocate for gender justice when you can. My view is that it is not unethical to "fabricate" to protect your privacy, since so much is at stake. The only thing you can do is to try to minimize the occasions on which it is necessary.

This may mean, among other things: know where you are and who you're with; how honest you can be; how and when to "bail out" of a conversation before you have to "fabricate." All of this is vastly easier to say than to do, and I can only barely imagine the difficulty it imposes on you. Let me know if this makes sense.

Feel free to follow up. I'd like to know if I've really understood the concern you raise. Remember: you are brave and resourceful. Trust that. Blessings,

[Tori]

Trolls...

[Tori]

I posed this question with my ethics and therapy professor.

A little background on this: I am stealth now in every aspect of my life except for dating. I will still tell a person who wants to be romantically involved I am trans before it even gets to the point of anything more serious.

However, with my profession, I am in stealth and I have been lying on a few issues of my life. I was troubled by this and I emailed my professor.

Here is what he had stated to me and I hope this helps:

Hi Annah:  You raise a very sensitive issue here. I guess I'd approach it from the perspective that protecting your privacy is the first value and sometimes a discretionary response is indicated.

You can't always know in advance when you have inadvertantly set in motion a line of inquiry that threatens to "out" you unintentionally, as you illustrate here.

It is good that you are bothered by misrepresenting yourself, especially when you also try to be an advocate for gender justice when you can. My view is that it is not unethical to "fabricate" to protect your privacy, since so much is at stake. The only thing you can do is to try to minimize the occasions on which it is necessary.

This may mean, among other things: know where you are and who you're with; how honest you can be; how and when to "bail out" of a conversation before you have to "fabricate." All of this is vastly easier to say than to do, and I can only barely imagine the difficulty it imposes on you. Let me know if this makes sense.

Feel free to follow up. I'd like to know if I've really understood the concern you raise. Remember: you are brave and resourceful. Trust that. Blessings,

Annah, I love you.

English is a difficult language and love is a difficult word.

I stand by my statement.

That was a man "trying" to understand... and failing.

That was not your gospel. Nor was it a man interpreting said gospel.

That was OLD SCHOOL getting YOUR boot!

[Tori]

Ah... say WHAT?!

A joke.

[Tori]

Yeah, I see.

English is a terrible language.

Jerk. :p

[Annah]

Annah, I love you.

English is a difficult language and love is a difficult word.

I stand by my statement.

That was a man "trying" to understand... and failing.

That was not your gospel. Nor was it a man interpreting said gospel.

That was OLD SCHOOL getting YOUR boot!

I don't understand what you mean by that statement.

I actually found his response to be wise and respectable.

I think you must have read a different message from my professor other than the one I posted. If you honestly thought he was giving me the boot or failing then you must get offended easily.

He even wrote in the letter, "I can only barely imagine the difficulty it imposes on you" so he doesn't presume to know all the answers.

I'm still perplexed about your gospel comment.

[Annah]

yeah, i was thinking it came from a Google translator because the response did not make much sense....and her statement was as if I had posted something completely different

[Tori]

  I am sorry Annah.

I am taking some very strong night time medication right now, and delusions are a side effect. It has come to the point where I turn my computer off before I take it. I made the mistake of browsing on my phone past night.

What I saw in that letter last night is not what I see today with a clear head.

Again sorry, I thought the side effects were minimizing. I guess they aren't. Can't wait to get off this stuff.

[peky]

Annah,

You ever read a book called: "the people of the lie." That book is pretty good at separating the good lies from the bad lies. I would agree with your professor that when it comes to your privacy, omissions and misdirections (what you may call good lies) is the best way forward

[Elsa]

sometimes we don't have a choice but to lie to protect ourselves and those we care about

I believe that if you have to choose between a lie that protects yourself and your family/ friends/ loved ones and the truth that makes us feel better but puts everything we hold dear at risk and endangers not just ourselves but those we care about the choice is obvious.

We can either choose to lie or somehow escape the situation where we have to lie.

Annah, your professor sounds really smart and awesome.

Tori, it's ok sometimes to see things differently because our situation and mindset at the time may not always be the same as others so it's difficult to make the choices we would normally always make and then we find ourselves wondering why on earth did we do that

ps : an typing on the phone so sorry if things get messy

[Annah]

I've always struggled with the morality of this.

However, as my Professor pointed out, fabricating the details of my past to certain people will not hurt them and I do keep the responsibility with letting the people who need to know my past know.

For example, in the church setting, I told my Conference. I told them them because they are the equivalent of Bishops and the ones who ordains me. They also need to know to weigh the outcome of any possible ramifications if a local church member were to find out and complain, my "higher ups" will already know and had already accepted my gender presentation.

I am a female, through and through. My past will not harm my congregation members. If they were to find out and disagree with it, they simply find another church to call home. This is where I believe there is a difference with lovers. For me, not telling a lover may harm him. It is a strong emotional betrayal and not easy to just walk away from when someone shared their most intimate and vulnerable moments with you.

Likewise, with my congregation, they know where I stand with LGBT issues. They know I embrace everyone who walks through our doors. So, me not telling them of my past isn't really me trying to avoid controversy. It's me not having to desire to disclose the specifics of my sex. Me being a female, a pluralistic church, has no bearing on my ability to minister.

My professor is also right about another thing. If a discussion looks like it may head towards an encounter in which I may need to fabricate, I simply change the subject or not involve myself with any unnecessary disclosure.

It is an interest issue.

This winter, I need to spend three weeks in an Amish Community. I will dress like them, I will live them, I will work alongside them and worship with them. While they will know I am not Amish and I am doing this for a requirement in Seminary, they will never know my birth Gender. I just cannot. If I did, I would not be welcomed. These are times when I need to avoid certain discussions so I will not have the need to fabricate.

In the end, the issue isn't a low self esteem issue. Nor is it an issue of me being ashamed of being transgender or my sexuality. It is more along the lines that I need to protect my interests, job safety, and those who have confided within me.

[Tori]

I may need google translator to understand that.

Annah, I thought your mentor was telling you to NEVER lie about your past, but to never tell the truth either. This really upset me. Delusions are like that. They feel real. I even read your post several times before replying. I was convinced I knew what I was talking about.

Oops.

Also, sorry Abra.

You are both tremendous assets to this community.

[Annah]

I may need google translator to understand that.

Annah, I thought your mentor was telling you to NEVER lie about your past, but to never tell the truth either. This really upset me. Delusions are like that. They feel real. I even read your post several times before replying.

Also, sorry Abra.

You are both tremendous assets to this community.

no worries

My professor was saying that it is ok to fabricate in order to protect your privacy/sexuality/etc when things may create confusion, hostility, hurt, or any other emotion that isn't very productive....just be aware of your surroundings and if you feel bad about fabricating things then gauge the conversation and make the decision to carry forward or to end the conversation.

[Tori]

Annah:

Clearly, that is the case. Your professor is very knowledgeable and thoughtful.

Still haven't taken the crazy pill.

Need to soon though. So, goodnight.

Again, sorry.

[peky]

How to know what is a "good" lie and what is a "bad" one?

Once you lie the jig is up... as one lie tends to lead to the next, right?

Also the German saying: "Wer einmal lügt dem glaubt man nicht und wenn er auch die Wahrheit spricht"

In prosaic English: "A liar is not believed even when he speaks the truth..."

Once found out to be a liar, something happens... a bond of trust is broken... not easily restored, if ever... and THAT, will add to and confirm a liars feeling of low self-image, yes?

Once such low self-image is accepted by the self (becomes normative)... lying can become a habit. I have seen this to be most prevalent in substance abusers... lying as much to themselves as to anyone else. Self-delusion and low self-image seem very good companions.

Therefor the second part that goes with lying seems low-self-image... unless we pity the person we're lying too. It will be equally devastating and undermining trust...

If this is getting too heavy, please ignore my reflections,
Axélle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie 

[Elsa]

best example of a good and bad lie that I can think of:

well, if you had a choice of telling the truth and putting your loved ones and ourself at risk where they/we could be murdered in our sleep cause of some i****'s hate or telling a lie, to ensure your own and your loved ones safety = good lie...
it could also be something as simple as not telling the truth about Santa to your kids so they don't loose their childhood innocence and are able to enjoy a few more years before the seriousness of life, that comes when we become teens, sets in.

a bad lie is something that harms a person either in the future or at present or in the past, its something lie when someone asks us if we would be there to meet them at a particular time but then we ditch them at the last moment and that person/persons have to spend their entire evening just waiting for us to turn up but we don't.

[peky]

How to know what is a "good" lie and what is a "bad" one?

Once you lie the jig is up... as one lie tends to lead to the next, right?

Also the German saying: "Wer einmal lügt dem glaubt man nicht und wenn er auch die Wahrheit spricht"

In prosaic English: "A liar is not believed even when he speaks the truth..."

Once found out to be a liar, something happens... a bond of trust is broken... not easily restored, if ever... and THAT, will add to and confirm a liars feeling of low self-image, yes?

Once such low self-image is accepted by the self (becomes normative)... lying can become a habit. I have seen this to be most prevalent in substance abusers... lying as much to themselves as to anyone else. Self-delusion and low self-image seem very good companions.

Therefor the second part that goes with lying seems low-self-image... unless we pity the person we're lying too. It will be equally devastating and undermining trust...

If this is getting too heavy, please ignore my reflections,
Axélle

There are two kinds of men and only two. And that young man is one kind. He is high-minded. He is pure. He's the kind of man the world pretends to look up to, and in fact despises. He is the kind of man who breeds unhappiness, particularly in women. Do you understand?

[Elsa]

I guess what Peky is trying to say - I hope you don't mind Peky -

is men who are brutally honest are sometimes despised because they can sometimes do more damage than good.

Especially to a woman's self-esteem, self-image.

am sure you must have heard of and even asked this question to a guy:
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
"Do you think I should try loosing weight?"
"Do my thighs look big/small?"
And the list goes on - as a woman - there is a point up-to which I DON'T want a guy/girl I am in a relationship to be brutally honest especially when its about something I am sensitive about.

edit: People who are sometimes brutally honest sometimes risk the lives, jobs and relationships of those around them.

[peky]

I guess what Peky is trying to say - I hope you don't mind Peky -

is men who are brutally honest are sometimes despised because they can sometimes do more damage than good.

Especially to a woman's self-esteem, self-image.

am sure you must have heard of and even asked this question to a guy:
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
"Do you think I should try loosing weight?"
"Do my thighs look big/small?"
And the list goes on - as a woman - there is a point up-to which I DON'T want a guy/girl I am in a relationship to be brutally honest especially when its about something I am sensitive about.

edit: People who are sometimes brutally honest sometimes risk the lives, jobs and relationships of those around them.

Rigth on! You go girl!

The quote it from the character Komarosky who is speaking to Lara in the movie Dr Zhivago.

I do not preach or practice the art of lieying, but yes, I have told a few. Almost all -but few stupid ones- were said to protect someone or myself.

Trough out my life, I found that self-rightous, brutally honest, high-minded people are very hard to live with, so I avoid them.