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Is time real or an illusion?

Started by peky, March 31, 2013, 08:15:34 PM

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Anatta

Quote from: peky on April 01, 2013, 04:12:37 PM
yes, our perception of time is relative to many things (drugs, emotional state, etc)

The point of this thread was to bring to the table the idea thats since the true perception of time is present or future, as the present is but an illusion, then we can say that we live in the past while projecting ourselves into the future

Kia Ora Peky,

::) And there I was thinking you wanted to prove the existence of your god to non theistic  Buddhists  ;) ;D

Anyhow back in 'time'

What is it that's projected into the future ?
Is it our thoughts ?
Our physical bodies?
And what is it that lives in the past ?
And how is it physically possible to live in the past ?

The present moment is not the illusion-the illusions are ones thoughts of the past and the future that arise in the present moment....Both of which do not 'exist'=the past is gone and the future is forever unfolding in the present moment...

Peky as a 'scientist' I take it you are aware of our physical bodies [including mental faculties] along with everything else is in a constant state of flux...

Every moment is a moment of events and no moment passes by without an event !
One can not notice a moment without noticing events taking place in that moment.
Therefore the 'moment ' one tries to pay bare attention to, is the 'present' moment!

"Transient alas are all component things-
subject are they to birth and then decay
Having gained birth to death the life-flux swings-
bliss truly dawns when unrest dies away !"


This to could go on forever ...But I've got all the time in the world, in fact the universe...no wait...the multi universe and beyond....I guess I could just say I've got time...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

Quote from: Misato33 on April 01, 2013, 09:31:12 PM
Time keeps on slippin, slippin, slippin, into the future.

Kia Ora Misato,

I like it  ;D



Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Sandra M. Lopes

I think we can all agree that the perception of time is a personal experience, different from everybody else's, so it cannot be "absolute". A typical example: pining for the whole week until the "time" comes for crossdressing seems to take an eternity; the actual few hours while crossdressing slip past in a hurry :) Or, putting it into a different way: spending three hours in the bathroom getting ready for going out is "never enough time", while the same three hours, from the perspective of my wife, seem like an eternity.

Another typical example: an hour having dinner with one's S.O. takes just an instant; an hour lunching with a droning professor of philosophy gets on our nerves because it seems it will never end. A good movie is always shorter than a boring movie — even if both take exactly 90 minutes.

Well, that's fine; but one might wonder if there is indeed something else beyond our own perceptions, and which "marks time" in an absolute, intrinsic way, even if we perceive it differently. If there is, well, then relativity is impossible and Einstein not only was wrong, but we have been deluding ourselves for the past century every time a scientist makes an experiment confirming Einstein's theorems to an ever-increasing accuracy. It makes no sense postulating that time is both absolute and relative at the same time!

However, we certainly have a notion of conventional time. By this I mean that even though relativistic clocks might disagree on the passage of time, we can still agree that there is entropy (we might just disagree on the precise amount, as this will be slightly different depending on the observer). In simple Buddhist terms, what this means is that we can observe entropy and agree that it exists conventionally — Buddhists might use the word "impermanence" to describe entropy — and we can also see how it happens, moment by moment. Thus, we can measure entropy at one moment in time, and on the next Planck time unit (the smallest possible time subdivision according to quantum mechanics), and see that there is a difference, however slightly — entropy has grown slightly, and we can define an "arrow of time" that way. This is irrefutable.

What Buddhism says about that is that time exists conventionally as long as there are observers (and Buddhism also claims that wherever there is a universe — commonly known as "phenomena" or translated as "appearances" — there are minds to observe it, and vice-versa), but it's not a property that exists on its own, i.e. intrinsically. Quantum mechanics have at least nine (or eleven, according to some) different interpretations, but the most popular ones tend to agree with that definition of conventional time. Einstein's relativistic universe has been proposed in dependence of observers; it makes little sense to talk about "time" (or even "space"!) if there is no way to measure it, and measurements require an observer to make the measurement (even though modern physics accept "mindless observers", something which Buddhism rejects: observing is an act which requires a conscious observer, and it's delusional to believe that a rock can observe other rock).

We humans can certainly speculate (as thought experiments) if a universe devoid of any observing minds can exist and if time would pass on that universe. The convention in this case is to accept that this is a valid thought experiment. However, like many other similar thought experiments, it cannot be proven or disproven — as soon as someone observes that universe to see if it has "time" in it, then there is at least one observer! — and, as such, it might be unscientific to postulate its existence (at least, by a strict interpretation of Popper's definition of a scientific theory: one that can be disproven) beyond a thought experiment. Buddhist thought is a bit more consistent in that regard: whatever universes are out there, they will always have observers with conscious minds, and, for them, time will exist conventionally; there cannot be any universes without any observers whatsoever; so, according to Buddhist thought, time cannot be an absolute, but merely a conventional experience — just like everything else, really.
Don't judge, and you won't be judged.
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Oriah

an illusion

nothing is, everything is permitted
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