How to argue with transphobes?

[~RoadToTrista~]

The answer is don't bother, as others have pointed out. They're no doubt just as likely to change their minds as you are.

Also, completely ignore comments like this when you're clearly in the minority; it'll help keep your sanity.

[Makalii]

Fear not my friend! ^_^ Your brothers and sisters are here to tell you how right you are and how wrong they are. And in time you will soon find that being backed up by all of us, and that knowledge that the argument is obviously yours, may actually be far more important to you than whether or not this random stranger is smart enough to understand what you're saying or not. In truth, calling them silly and having us agree with you that they are silly, and simply dismissing the fact that they will always be silly is far more rewarding than winning any potential argument should they prove that they in fact can appeal to reason.( I personally doubt it.)

You are arguing with a post, and even if you tell it there is more to life than being a post, it still won't say anything intelligent back to you.

[Beth Andrea]

"How to argue with transphobes?"

You don't. You can't educate the ineducable. In the greater realm of things, they are insignificant, they are as relevant as a piece of lint. Save your energy for the bigger battles.

Plus, you're on teh Interwebz...everyone's IQ and reasoning ability drops by 2d100...

[stavraki]

<--snip-->This makes me so mad and I have no idea how to respond. I tried to tell him that transpeople just want to be recognised as the gender we identify with, but he continues to insist that our gender is defined by our genitals. Does anyone have any idea of what I should respond with?<--snip-->

I hear ya.  I've found that the need for the attempt to 'logic someone' into an empathic position is harmful to ourselves in the first place.  That we are even engaging him on this level means, that by him, you have been mistreated and objectified by defining your mind and self as a function of your body parts.  Which means 'he doesn't get it' and so he is not 'seeing' you [Avatar, the movie, empathy concept].  He is seeing a phantom of his own two dimensional stereotypes in his mind and distorting others' personhoods.  He is also not aware that there is a double standard in what he is doing:

How would he feel if the world told him he wasn't male?


You might want to try a 'thought experiment'.  For example, has he seen Stargate Universe.  Ask him to think of the stones that swap minds and bodies of two people.  Ask him to imagine that swapping a body is possible, and ask him what he would think if he found himself waking up one day in a woman's body and being same-sex attracted because his mind was still the same.  Would he begin to grasp that he was still 'male', first of all because he was the same 'person' and then, would he begin to realise that biological sex, gender identity, as you well have lived are distinct, then would he begin to grasp that's the same for sexual orientation as well.  The world's really slow about the whole area.

Then say to him--the chemicals in the new brain changed his sexual orientation and he started liking the sight of men and how would he feel then, were the change beyond his control.

I dunno

[Sammy]

If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"
You "Gender and sexual orientation are two different things"
Bigot "Why do You need excuses just to be a fag? Admit that You are one"
You "You are not getting the point, are You?"
Bigot "No, You are not getting it. You are just a sick person whose brains need to be fixed. Too bad Your old man did not beat You up enough when You was a little faggy kid to show You that You can be man enough"
You "I am not a man, I am a female"
Bigot "You were born a man. Take it as a man and die a man. Or should I rather refer to You as "it"?"
Bigot 2 "All fags should be burned on stake, cause thats what the Bible says. Fags were not created by God, they are abominations and should be killed"
You "Bible does not say that"
Bigot 3 "Yes, is does. Go read it for Yourself"
You "Can You tell me where does it say so?"
Bigot 3 "No, I am not talking with fags"
You "Can You argue in civil manner without insulting other people?'"
Bigot 3 "No, its You who cant. Besides I dont see other people here, only a bunch of subhumans"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them...

[~RoadToTrista~]

If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"
You "Gender and sexual orientation are two different things"
Bigot "Why do You need excuses just to be a fag? Admit that You are one"
You "You are not getting the point, are You?"
Bigot "No, You are not getting it. You are just a sick person whose brains need to be fixed. Too bad Your old man did not beat You up enough when You was a little faggy kid to show You that You can be man enough"
You "I am not a man, I am a female"
Bigot "You were born a man. Take it as a man and die a man. Or should I rather refer to You as "it"?"
Bigot 2 "All fags should be burned on stake, cause thats what the Bible says. Fags were not created by God, they are abominations and should be killed"
You "Bible does not say that"
Bigot 3 "Yes, is does. Go read it for Yourself"
You "Can You tell me where does it say so?"
Bigot 3 "No, I am not talking with fags"
You "Can You argue in civil manner without insulting other people?'"
Bigot 3 "No, its You who cant. Besides I dont see other people here, only a bunch of subhumans"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them...

I would've just said I was supergay around line 3 and left it at that.

[Pia Bianca]

Instead, talk about facts. She obviously wants to be referred to using female pronouns and her female names. Wouldn't it be rude not to? Wouldn't only an insensitive person not accommodate her wishes?

That might be successful in some circumstances.

It is nice to know that idealists still live among us...

Idealists and their dreams are what changes the world.

You can't beat "The Internet".

Unfortunately this most certainly is true.

[Nicolette]

Look, they most likely wouldn't even pass the Turing test, let alone become educated. They may only have one parameter, a static, no less. Even if you could educate tête-à-tête, there are literally hordes, millions, willing to take their place. It has to be done en masse, otherwise you're wasting your energies. Unless, as has been said, it's an immediate physical attack. For one's own sanity: ignore.

[Sammy]

It has to be done en masse, otherwise you're wasting your energies.

Are we talking about WMD here?

[Nicolette]

Are we talking about WMD here?

Wisdom via Mass Dissemination

[vegie271]

If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"
You "Gender and sexual orientation are two different things"
Bigot "Why do You need excuses just to be a fag? Admit that You are one"
You "You are not getting the point, are You?"
Bigot "No, You are not getting it. You are just a sick person whose brains need to be fixed. Too bad Your old man did not beat You up enough when You was a little faggy kid to show You that You can be man enough"
You "I am not a man, I am a female"
Bigot "You were born a man. Take it as a man and die a man. Or should I rather refer to You as "it"?"
Bigot 2 "All fags should be burned on stake, cause thats what the Bible says. Fags were not created by God, they are abominations and should be killed"
You "Bible does not say that"
Bigot 3 "Yes, is does. Go read it for Yourself"
You "Can You tell me where does it say so?"
Bigot 3 "No, I am not talking with fags"
You "Can You argue in civil manner without insulting other people?'"
Bigot 3 "No, its You who cant. Besides I dont see other people here, only a bunch of subhumans"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them...

The worst thing is the bigots are allowed to do this to you all day online totally unmoderated, and if you say the least thing in response you are banned as being hateful, since we are the ones who are subhuman, even the forums think so

[Horizon]

If You would try to educate them, it could be looking like this. Sorry for possibly abusive language, I hope I wont violate too many rules...
You: "Transpeople are people too. They are born this way and  did not choose to be trans"
Bigot: "You are fag, just admit it"

This pattern can go on and on... Seen it countless times on YT...

Now, go try educate them...

I've seen threads that look exactly like this - even on supposedly "friendly" sites.  The Escapist is always touted as having one of the most "intelligent, inclusive" gaming communities.  Some recent polls showed that a majority of the site is horrifically transphobic, the comments significantly worse (people started calling transgirls "dudes" just to annoy them).  Trolling or not, it's aggravating to say the least.

[Pia Bianca]

I just ignore them or if I get angry enough, tell them to f**k off and be done with it. I don't waste my time getting into long winded arguments with idiots like that.

Don't argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. But you can argue with non-idiots.

[stavraki]

Don't argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. But you can argue with non-idiots.

I tend to take this position--not always.  I've found that trying to 'argue' about areas where people are prejudiced often gets their backs up.  They end up responding to feeling invalidated and disagreed with, or take issue with your tones, and or feel threatened about what you're saying (probably because they, on some level, are in denial about those aspects of their opposite-gendered self they've squashed way down deep and can't bear to accept).  Nett result, they get hot around the collar and remember how they felt about the argument, not what was said.

The same selfishness that blocks their sight (empathy) and that is about their own denial or blind spots in their capacity to read real truth, makes them unwilling to scrutinise the self.  It ends up being 'your issue--I don't like how they make me feel' rather than an empathy-development exercise for them.

Has anyone heard these ones:

you're lecturing me and patronising me.  I know what's right and what a man and a woman is.
don't be selfish.  You're ruining our family's reputation and quite clearly we know what sex  you are.
you're just doing this for attention.
how can you like 'girls' if you want to change sex and be a girl?  You're messed up, and don't make your issue ours.

etc.  Transphobia, like homophobia, and xenophobia is quite pernicious.  I believe that, ultimately, love, the greater power breaks those stereotypes.  Through fear of loss of loved ones.  Through the fortune of crises that transphobes go through that 'break' their 2 dimensional beliefs.  Through acts of courage by strong men and women who know who they are, in their true selves...

[Sammy]

I've seen threads that look exactly like this - even on supposedly "friendly" sites.  The Escapist is always touted as having one of the most "intelligent, inclusive" gaming communities.  Some recent polls showed that a majority of the site is horrifically transphobic, the comments significantly worse (people started calling transgirls "dudes" just to annoy them).  Trolling or not, it's aggravating to say the least.

You know, I was recently searching something about average muscle/body etc ratios- looking for possible triggers? - and one of the google links led me to bodybuilder forum. There was one bright dude, who had posted thatpriceless question "Does watching t-porn makes you gay and would You make out with  a t-girl?" - at some point there was a picture of Kimber James posted as well (You can look her up at Your own discretion - NSFW) - there was a poll too. Now, what was funny - the thread was full with transphobic comments and suggestions that the OP was fag and cant admit it, yet.... The poll was totally different What I saw from those numbers was that about 80% of those bodybuilders would watch that and do this . That made my day

[Pia Bianca]

You only hear those who shout the loudest.

[stavraki]

You only hear those who shout the loudest.

somewhere between 'the squeaky wheel gets the grease' and 'the goose that sticks its head out....' and all that

'the powerful lobby group who effect social change', versus the 'disaffected, persecuted minority who cannot be themselves for fear of reprisal'.

I'm still figuring out when to do each one, and when to choose my moment, and when to be quiet for the right occasion....

[Jamie D]

The worst thing is the bigots are allowed to do this to you all day online totally unmoderated, and if you say the least thing in response you are banned as being hateful, since we are the ones who are subhuman, even the forums think so

Not here, they're not.

[vegie271]

Not here, they're not.

true I come here for safety, there is one other place I go to and there they get deleted also, it is on facebook and Yahoo and Goggle+ and Twitter, Don't get me started on >-bleeped-<

at least on Tumb1r you can blacklist AND you can report a lot better although now that it has been taken over by Yahoo it will probably get worse

not to mention all the dating sites

[big kim]

I don't argue with them I tell them to colour their books in.