Why Do I Feel Uncomfortable When I See a Very "Unpassable" Transwomen

[Maud]

You're assuming i had a normal male upbringing which I didn't, I don't care to go into detail but I had as near identical as can be upbringing to my sister. Different people have different experiences and there are some who you will just never pick up on. Allot of people tell me I'm not TS from within the community because of allot of the reasons why I manage to blend so well.

Mawd, actually the reverse is true, I suspected that you were not raises strictly as a male that's why I put that caveat in. There is a genetic boy who is being raised as a girl here in Norcal, when she grows up, she will likely pass "absolutely." But IMO she is not a transsexual because she never really had to transition from the male to female role.

I had to transition from a male to female role just I only lived properly in a male role for all of 6 weeks before I thought "f**k this" and went FT, my parents didn't enforce any gender stereotypes on us at all, well, it was more that we both got equal dose of gender stereotypes, point is we were encoraged to just be ourselves. To quote my mother "if you want to be a girl you can be a girl".

[Keira]

Melissa,
Did you actually read the 5 paragraph instead of being "witty" at my expense.
I truly don't appreciate it and I'm signing off from this thread.

[NatalieC]

I understand how you feel. Some people just are embarassing to the whole idea of passing and I wonder how they live with themselves. Like this transwoman here were I live is supposed to be a spokesperson for us and she doesnt event try to use a female voice and she is very ugly and mean. Its not a good image and is giving people the wrong idea here! My laser specialist is an older guy who gets around the scene here and he and his mates laugh at her. He told me I was a true ->-bleeped-<- and that he would do everything he could do to help me pass including other laser beauty therapies at a discount! My point is that it is hard for us that pass or will pass to be comfortable with someone who clearly doesnt pass well and never will because their dreaming or something. Anyway no offense to those who dont pass and never will! But it does make me a little uncomfortable when you put yourself out there setting a bad example. Like this transwoman going on the news here with that male voice.Argh its so unnatractive.

[Elizabeth]

I understand how you feel. Some people just are embarassing to the whole idea of passing and I wonder how they live with themselves. Like this transwoman here were I live is supposed to be a spokesperson for us and she doesnt event try to use a female voice and she is very ugly and mean. Its not a good image and is giving people the wrong idea here! My laser specialist is an older guy who gets around the scene here and he and his mates laugh at her. He told me I was a true ->-bleeped-<- and that he would do everything he could do to help me pass including other laser beauty therapies at a discount! My point is that it is hard for us that pass or will pass to be comfortable with someone who clearly doesnt pass well and never will because their dreaming or something. Anyway no offense to those who dont pass and never will! But it does make me a little uncomfortable when you put yourself out there setting a bad example. Like this transwoman going on the news here with that male voice.Argh its so unnatractive.

Laff, you say something super insulting, then say "no offense". I am actually laughing right now, huge smile on my face. I can't believe you really think you are better than me. You think I owe you something? I also never use a female voice, I have never even tried. I spent most of my life pretending to be a man only to have "true ->-bleeped-<-'s" tell me I need to use a pretend voice? And pretend to be something I am not. I don't need to "act" like a woman, just like any woman don't need to act. I am fine being myself.

What I am super glad about is the fact that my happiness is not dependent on how others present themselves. I am also glad I am not a superficial judgmental person that judges people based on their own truth. And I am really glad I am not having discussions with strangers about it, so they know I am a judgmental shallow person. Nothing personal.

What I really hope is that I continue to embarrass people like you with my "I don't care what you think" attitude. I will live in my absolute unpassable bliss, while you will remain upset about something you can do nothing about.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Maud]

I don't mean to stir this up but i'm going to anyway....

If someone can't be bothered to pass and doesn't much care that people see them as a TV or a bloke in a dress then whatever, doesn't much effect me, it's your life and you can live it how you please. I just don't think it's reasonable to expect people to accept you as something you don't present as when you could present that way you just choose not to be because you essentially can't be arsed.

Clothes don't mean squat to me/ transition is all about how people percieve me and finally fitting in, I was tired of being the oddball girl/boy weirdo and when i transitioned everything just clicked and my life became enjoyable, I didn't start enjoying my life because I was wearing womens clothes at all and if you're not trying to pass as a woman that's essentially what you're life comes down to.

Though i could just be an oddball as I never did crossdress.

[Steph]

This topic has been discussed many times before and again it has raised the same hackles as before but none the less a relevant topic.  I remember when i first started this journey, looking in the mirror I would often despair that I looked like a freak a "guy in a dress" consequently I stayed locked behind closed doors or restricted my activities to the privacy of group meetings and such.  It got to the point that I couldn't bear to be shut it, trapped by my insecurities, so regardless what others thought I ventured out.  I know there were times where folks would stare at me in passing and I was ridiculed for the way I looked.  But you know something at the time I was doing everything thing possible and affordable to pass.  I can imagine that there were those who would have thought that i didn't put any effort into my appearance but believe me I did.

I can understand the embarrassment that some TS may suffer when in the presence of one that doesn't pass so well or appears not to be concerned by their looks as everyone experiences the same type of feeling when one of their peer group goes against or doesn't "properly" reflect the norm.   From my military life I remember how embarrassed I was when I saw fellow soldiers in uniform looking unkempt and disheveled and how they brought shame to my group.  The same goes for us, but unless we know the intimate details about the TS in question, who are we to pass judgement, to say that they are not trying, to say that they don't care, maybe they are doing all they can to climb out of the rat hole that is their life.

Of course there are those who naturally flaunt the social norms, the flamboyant ones, the ones who want to be seen as "men in dresses", "women in pants" (That doesn't sound right )  Personally I find that folks like Dame Edna, bring just as much ridicule on our community more than any non-passing TS who may be encountered out there.

Just some random thoughts.

Steph

[melissa90299]

I am on disability, which right now is 100% of salary or $75,000 per year. I will probably be in recovery for a year although my compensation will be reduced to around $55k Somehow I will manage to squeak by, but the good news is that I will be here to entertain you.

And the bad news is the people of California are seemingly paying a lot of money to publish your 'theories' and  subsidize these distractions from your recovery. When I think of how, while I was teaching elementary school, I had to beg for a hundred dollars in art supplies for the kids I was teaching, it makes me sick. Focus on your recovery and save your life. The need to win Internet arguments isn't going to help you get healthy.

Gina M.

It makes you sick that people who are ill receive disability that they collect that THEY paid into? Disability payments comes from the pool of money paid in not from general revenues. I only get $700/week from the state, the rest from Liberty Mutual.

I am focused on recovery otherwise I wouldn't be trying to figure out things like why I feel uncomfortable in these situations. I think I am improving as the last time I saw an unpassable TG, I didn't feeel uncomfortable. But I did feel somewhat superior which isn't right.

I am still working on my character flaws. And I have a lot of them, one of which is always trying to get the last word in arguments. If you read my post carefully, you will see I modified my view a bit about it being impossible to pass "absolutely." Philosophically, I feel virtually nothing is an absolute. Anyway, I am not going to continue this argument, it is pointless.

I apologize to everyone who I might have pissed off, lately I have been feeling great but I still get into funks where I feel really, really ->-bleeped-<-ty and, though I don't mean it, it comes through in my posts here.

BTW the treatment  that people get to recover from drugs and alcohol is far less costly in the long run than leaving the disease untreated. Just think of what it costs to institutionalize or hospitalize an untreated addict/alcoholic.

[Rachael]

Of course there are those who naturally flaunt the social norms, the flamboyant ones, the ones who want to be seen as "men in dresses", "women in pants" (That doesn't sound right )  Personally I find that folks like Dame Edna, bring just as much ridicule on our community more than any non-passing TS who may be encountered out there.

Just some random thoughts.

Steph

ah, so people who pass are all like dame edna?

wtf does a drag queen have to do with the passability of TRANSEXUAL women?


maud, im on your side here.
and melissa, yes, there is too much ego strokeing.
you know, in the uk at the gic, one must put effort into thier transition of your not allowed to transition. you must try to look like the gender you wish to be accepted as, to be physically allowed by therapists to proceed. god, this effort buisness is such a drag isnt it?
and yeah maud, this isnt about clothes for me either, i never dressed in womens clothes, or wore a bra, till i had breasts of my own . no early life 'crossdressing' here. I know im a girl, of course i do, im me afterall. my transition is to let society know im a girl too, and so that they will treat me as myself, without having to tell them what i am. so call that pandering to society. but its THEM that i want to change thier opinion of me to that of a female. if i dont try, im still a girl,sure, but nobody will see her. Such is transition. and in the UK, pass or not, i MUST be seen to be atleast trying to present female.

[melissa90299]

I understand how you feel. Some people just are embarassing to the whole idea of passing and I wonder how they live with themselves. Like this transwoman here were I live is supposed to be a spokesperson for us and she doesnt event try to use a female voice and she is very ugly and mean. Its not a good image and is giving people the wrong idea here! My laser specialist is an older guy who gets around the scene here and he and his mates laugh at her. He told me I was a true ->-bleeped-<- and that he would do everything he could do to help me pass including other laser beauty therapies at a discount! My point is that it is hard for us that pass or will pass to be comfortable with someone who clearly doesnt pass well and never will because their dreaming or something. Anyway no offense to those who dont pass and never will! But it does make me a little uncomfortable when you put yourself out there setting a bad example. Like this transwoman going on the news here with that male voice.Argh its so unnatractive.

Laff, you say something super insulting, then say "no offense". I am actually laughing right now, huge smile on my face. I can't believe you really think you are better than me. You think I owe you something? I also never use a female voice, I have never even tried. I spent most of my life pretending to be a man only to have "true ->-bleeped-<-'s" tell me I need to use a pretend voice? And pretend to be something I am not. I don't need to "act" like a woman, just like any woman don't need to act. I am fine being myself.

What I am super glad about is the fact that my happiness is not dependent on how others present themselves. I am also glad I am not a superficial judgmental person that judges people based on their own truth. And I am really glad I am not having discussions with strangers about it, so they know I am a judgmental shallow person. Nothing personal.

What I really hope is that I continue to embarrass people like you with my "I don't care what you think" attitude. I will live in my absolute unpassable bliss, while you will remain upset about something you can do nothing about.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Love always,
Elizabeth

Elizabeth, I don't know how to say this without offending you but it sounds like you are in denial when you say that you delight in not passing. It's just not healthy to want people to react negatively toward you but I don't think that you really feel that way, I think that you are using this as a defense mechanism. Have you told your therapist about this "attitude?"
 


BTW Rachel you have made amazing progress, you should be proud. And time is on your side, so it's only going to get better. And if we are not going to make any effort to present in a manner that we are looked upon correctly (as a female) then what's the point? If all one wants to do is wear women's clothes and speak in a masculine voice, I would respectfully question whether that person is transsexual or CD.

[Jessica]

If you've got too much balding, there's no current solution ...

http://news.hairlosshelp.com/hair-cloning/intercytex-releases-faq-on-their-icx-trc-hair-cloning-procedure/
Currently in Phase2 trails in the UK, probably available in around 2010.

If you've got real big passing issues, 50 inch chest and six foot 5, what do you do then, find a bridge?

Bridges aren't certain enough.

There is my contribution to this thread.

Jessica

[LostInTime]

But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans.

That is not necessarily so. The one thing that helps me is that I do not have any overt behavioral cues that may alert someone. I know this because it has been pointed out time and time again. I have even been approached by other T gals who wish to know how to carry themselves and behave in a similar manner. I cannot help them because it is natural for me. For years I was picked on for walking like a girl or talking like one and on and on. I had to work at appearing masculine in my manners. I took on a fake limp to hide how I walk naturally, cut my hair short, and tried to keep my body language less animated.

I am no one special. If I grew up in such a way I am sure that many others have as well. Besides the "masculine" and "feminine" behaviors are all dependent on one's own culture and also the host culture that you may find yourself in. African American males have a different set of expectations, are raised differently, and then have to reconcile all of those things with a dominant white culture in the United States. Same thing for every minority here and the states and then there are changes in expectations and even in terminology depending on where one may live in the US (or the world). There are no hard and fast rules for either side.

[Kate]

it sounds like you are in denial when you say that you delight in not passing...

Speaking *only* for myself, there was a time where I hesitated on trying TOO hard to pass for fear I would fail and look ridiculous. It's a catch-22: if you present totally female, you're more likely to pass... but if you fail, you're also more likely to attract stares and ridicule. So it was tempting to be somewhat androgynous, where if someone read me as a male, they might just think I was dressing and behaving *feminine*, and not realize I wanted them to read me as a woman.

I got over that in terms of visual presentation, but I STILL struggle with it with the voice... where I fear making a fool of myself and sounding fake and silly, so I end up not putting as much effort into it as I should when speaking with people.

Point being, maybe not all unpassable TSs are trying to challenge gender expectations... maybe some of them are just afraid to try and fail?

And Elizabeth, this isn't meant to apply to you at ALL. I just mean maybe some OTHER TSs out there might simply be afraid. I *love* how self-accepting you are, and I'm learning a lot from you.

~Kate~

[melissa90299]

But if she was raised as a male, there will always be something in her behavior which might cue a highly perceptive person that she trans.

That is not necessarily so. The one thing that helps me is that I do not have any overt behavioral cues that may alert someone. I know this because it has been pointed out time and time again. I have even been approached by other T gals who wish to know how to carry themselves and behave in a similar manner. I cannot help them because it is natural for me. For years I was picked on for walking like a girl or talking like one and on and on. I had to work at appearing masculine in my manners. I took on a fake limp to hide how I walk naturally, cut my hair short, and tried to keep my body language less animated.

So effectively, you never assimilated as a male, so my caveat would apply in your case. Someone who "acted like a girl" all her life,  regardless of what sexual organs, she has is going to be perceived as a girl. That is not hard to figure out.

[Rachael]

i was raised a boy, but my manerisms, behaviour, walk, stance, just me, is totally female, my friends have said they cant belive they didnt notice, and that its natural. tbh, i dont care if ->-bleeped-<-s want to try to read me, but if non trans folk cant, im happy with that. i garuntee half these 'transexuals' you all claim to have clocked turn out to be nothing but natal females... paranoia makes people see things...
I met a trans activist, who lets face it, has met a lot of trans people, and she didnt know i was trans till i mentioned something about my transition. then asked if i was f2m or m2f. i was just wearing jeans and a hoodie, although i agree with the andro sentiment, i find i pass better when not trying to hard, and feeling comfortable, in jeans and a hoodie, than in normal more feminine clothing. i can relax, and its eaiser to see me.
Though lets not confuse worry about being read, for not feeling one has to try...

[melissa90299]

People don't expect transwomen to dress butch, that really throws them.

i garuntee half these 'transexuals' you all claim to have clocked turn out to be nothing but natal females... paranoia makes people see things...

Calling me paranoid contributes nothing to the discussion and only diminishes you, not me.

I can guarantee you that not one of them was, I have I would guess thirty years of life experience over you, I have had two professions that depended on having developed a keen and accurate assessment of non-verbal communication. My instincts and intuition are uncanningly accurate. If you have learned anything in your short time on this planet, you should know that my reality is not yours and yours is not mine.

[Rachael]

ah, your older than me, so your better than me. gotcha.



and butch works my non trans best friend told me things like wearing hoodies, and my eyebrow piercing make me pass, because you just wouldnt expect a trans person to do something fairly masculine. but hey, its me, and it works.

[melissa90299]

ah, your older than me, so your better than me. gotcha.



and butch works my non trans best friend told me things like wearing hoodies, and my eyebrow piercing make me pass, because you just wouldnt expect a trans person to do something fairly masculine. but hey, its me, and it works.

Not better, just wiser.

[Elizabeth]

...
Elizabeth, I don't know how to say this without offending you but it sounds like you are in denial when you say that you delight in not passing. It's just not healthy to want people to react negatively toward you but I don't think that you really feel that way, I think that you are using this as a defense mechanism. Have you told your therapist about this "attitude?"
 
...

It is not so much that I delight in it as much as I just don't care. It really does not concern me what others think. There is always going to be bigoted people. Listen, there are plenty of women that look more masculine than me and I am sure people comment about them all the time. Studies have shown that TS women exhibit more feminine characteristics than genetic women, particularly younger genetic women.

I think all this business about trying to emulate women is completely silly. I am not interested in living my life how others see fit. If I did, I could have just remained in my male role. I have been dressing and living my life as a woman for three years now. I am treated great in my community and rarely does anyone stare at me. I have never had anyone comment about me, at least not where I could hear it.

So? If I can successfully live my life the way I want, and be treated with respect and dignity, which is the case. It's just really hard for me to buy into all this other nonsense about passing, when the truth is, it's all just a matter of opinion. My life is working, that is all I care about. The fact that my life is working is proof enough to me, that all this other hooey about passing or not passing is just ego, vanity and insecurity.

My advice to other TS's is simple, don't worry about what others think, say or do. You don't control it, so it's a waste of time to worry about it. Trying to live one's life for the expectations of others is not how I choose to live my life. So if anyone does not like how I dress or present myself, it's really just too bad. Look away. I don't represent the TS community, I represent myself. My one rule is this. Please myself because if I don't, no one else will. And it really works for me.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Rachael]

if you dont represent the TS community, dont comment on its behalf...

younger genetic women arent as feminine as a ts? SURE... just because women are less classically feminine, doesnt mean you get to do les s work to pass. being female isnt about femininity, its beyond that, and just not careing wont ever make you accepted as a woman, but tolerated.

[Elizabeth]

if you dont represent the TS community, dont comment on its behalf...

younger genetic women arent as feminine as a ts? SURE... just because women are less classically feminine, doesnt mean you get to do les s work to pass. being female isnt about femininity, its beyond that, and just not careing wont ever make you accepted as a woman, but tolerated.

Maybe that is where we differ. I don't need to be accepted. I mean what you are saying is that, no one will ever accept me if I don't pass. So if I basically lie and fool them, they will accept me. I am not a genetic woman. I am a woman that was born in a man's body. Pretending that is not the case to gain acceptance is not acceptance.

I also pretended I was a man for 42 years to gain acceptance and was accepted. I am not looking for acceptance from anyone that will not accept the truth about me. That I was a woman born in a male body. I am not ashamed of this and see no reason to hide it. I am also not interested in the friendship or acceptance from anyone that would only accept me, believing I am a genetic woman. To me that is shallow.

Perhaps you are embarrassed or ashamed that you are TS? You feel a strong need to hide this fact from everyone. It doesn't bother you that someone may not accept you unless you fool them into thinking you are a genetic female. I do not have this issue. You see, everyone who treats me kind and with dignity, knows exactly what I am. No pretense, no lies, no hiding my past or what I am. That is important to me, after hiding what I was for so long. Perhaps that is our only real difference.

Love always,
Elizabeth