Intimacy with others

[insideontheoutside]

I was reading another post and caught the line that went something like, "I've pushed away everyone who wanted to get close to me", and it made me think about how many times I've done that in my life and that led to me thinking how the way I am has seriously effected how I deal with intimacy with others.

How many are in that boat? How many have just uncomfortably "faked" times of intimacy with someone just to get through it? Or avoided it at all costs?

When your brain and your body don't completely match up, it basically ruins having an intimate relationship with someone unless you can find some way to get over your personal issues. Even with someone who said they accepted me as I was and said they were attracted to me. I couldn't get over my own issues with my body.

[Jamie D]

I was never comfortable in the sexual role I was expected to fill.  It just did not feel right, and my mind was often elsewhere.

Some evolutionary biologists will argue that we exist is individuals to pass along our DNA through sexual reproduction.  That, in fact, coitus is the most important thing we do, because it propagates the species.

I like to think our existence is more substantial than impregnating one another!

[Cindy]

It is an odd thing intimacy etc. I love my wife to pieces but I was very rarely intimate with her. I couldn't bring myself to kiss even. Now I totally enjoy intimacy with my BF even though I still have the wrong parts. I'm also a right royal pain with wanting him to kiss and hold me.

Is it a sexual thing or a relaxed thing. I'm now very comfortable with being me but I wasn't when I was trying to be him. So it is sort of I like being me so I like getting attention, and giving it of course.

[Stochastic]

insideontheoutside, You have started a number of thoughtful discussions on the non-transitioning forum. I could never open up to anyone except my wife (that's why I would like to keep her). I have a tendency to keep many personal topics to myself not just the TG stuff. It really is hard to openly develop a friendship or relationship when you have a deep secret.

Funny thing going through my high school and college years. I thought it was not right for me to pursue women and innately felt the need to play hard to get. It was years later that I realized it was my female brain calling the shots on how I deal with courtship.

[insideontheoutside]

insideontheoutside, You have started a number of thoughtful discussions on the non-transitioning forum.

Thank you.

[michelle_kelly]

I would raise my hand and say I am in the same boat.  When I was younger I avoided it at all costs and lead a very lonely life.  Lot of it was trust issues, feeling like I wasn't normal and a failure, feeling wrong with the body I have and like you said the big secret.  Even when I couldn't avoid I would find any reason to push them away and I paid dearly at times for doing that.

Although me and my wife have been married for thirteen years now, it was a very rocky road especially at the beginning.  There where times I pushed her away hard enough that we separated.  But I learned that she was willing to accept me for who I was as a person.  That I feel very honored and grateful to have such a person in my life.

[Tanya W]

It really is hard to openly develop a friendship or relationship when you have a deep secret.

I second this notion.

Looking back on my life, I can see how again and again I have let people come only so close because of the secrets I hold. There seem to be three big ones - addiction, abuse, gender - though I suspect the presence of these and my usual way of handling them leads to many, many more.

Each of these secrets seems like a 'sore spot' in my psyche and whenever someone gets a little too close, I pull away in one way, shape, or form.

Right now, with gender up in such a powerful way, I find myself being crushed by this dynamic, mores (I think) than ever was the case with either abuse or addiction. I am pushing everyone away / retracting from all my relationships. It is so very painful and so very lonely.

In order to overcome this situation, I do - as inside suggests - need to find some sort of peace with the body/identity situation I find myself in. At the same time, however, I also need to chip away at this longstanding pattern of withdrawal. I need to learn to open up, to share with others, to be intimate.

[insideontheoutside]

At the same time, however, I also need to chip away at this longstanding pattern of withdrawal. I need to learn to open up, to share with others, to be intimate.

That process of looking back on situations and events in your life where patterns like pulling away first started to happen is an interesting experience. When I did it, in one way I felt like, man how could I be so stupid to not see that! Then in another way it was like turning a light bulb on and finally seeing how much my image of myself dictated my behavior.

I've struggled with the intimacy thing in particular. For one, just defining what it is. Is intimacy just being super close to someone physically or sharing those deep aspects of yourself that you only can do with someone you trust? Is it wrapped up in sexual stuff? Since I never had the usual experiences of teenagers experimenting with "getting close" to other people there's still some things I feel like I'm in the dark on. It's not like I didn't/don't have a sex drive because by myself I do alright lol. But with someone else, it's like an anxiety attack. The most I've ever actually enjoyed from someone else's touch is massage (and not enjoy in a sexual way, just feel good). Sometimes the occasional hug is fine. But on my own personal scale of 1-10 (one being totally fine and 10 being an anxious meltdown), hugs are a 1. I'm not really into kissing. I've been on the fence for years about cuddling (anxiety inducing if someone expects that to lead to more). Actual sex has never been less than a 6 (the few times that I've managed) and I had a whole rule book that basically prevented the other party from doing anything against the rules. So when people talk about being intimate/having sex as some wonderful, spontaneous, amazing connection blah blah blah I have no idea what they're talking about. In recent years, I've actually questioned if I'm a bit asexual. My interest in having these experiences with someone else again is pretty low. But is it low because of the fact that I never had good experiences in the past or what? I certainly love and care about people in my life. But here's the thing, would it really benefit me to be more intimate? I'm married to someone who's legit asexual (as in zero interest in it). I have a very close friend who's down to "experiment" (and yes, who I'm married to knows about this and is perfectly fine with it if it were to ever happen), but she's in another state. It just seems like so much effort would have to be put into it and at this point I'm not sure I can muster the motivation or if I really have the interest or it's more I hear all these other people I know talking about it and I feel once again like I've missed out on something.

I have definitely been taking more steps to just open up to people who are my friends though. I came out to a long time friend this year who's only reaction was something along the lines of, "Ah that makes sense!" (granted she's a butch lesbian so it's not like it would have weirded her out or anything). The last few years I've been more open in just being myself. I don't put on some "gender act" anymore, pretending to be something I'm not for the outside world. But maybe that's as far as I need to go? I just don't know though, which is why I talk about it.

[Tanya W]

I've struggled with the intimacy thing in particular.

There is so much I want to say about what you have written, inside. I just spent a while with your 'Clothing, accessories, and hairstyles' thread, however, and it's late and I'm tired, so I am going to try to focus! You are keeping me up way too late!

In a previous post on this subject, I gave voice to my sense that both my secrets (addiction, abuse, and transgender being the big ones) and the habits of isolation I have built up around these have lead to struggles with intimacy most, if not all, of my life.

Another piece in this puzzle is, for me anyways, the issue of psychological development. As we progress through life in a relatively 'normal' fashion, we realize a certain number of psychological markers. We learn our world is safe, for instance. We learn we are loved. We learn to trust, to risk, to share and exchange. We learn to feel for another, for others. We learn that we can differ from these others and yet still be friends, lovers, intimates.

When this progress is affected by an other than 'normal' life, however, our relationship with these markers is very often undermined. In my case then, my struggles with intimacy are not only rooted in the facts I have hidden my gender sense for decades (and my abuse and my addiction) and isolated as a means of doing this, but also in the fact these two have affected my psychological development in some profound ways. I never learned the world is safe. I never learned I am loved - not as I am because this has been hidden. I never learned to trust.     

In recovery circles, it is said psychological development stops when our addiction begins. I can see this and feel this in my life - and not just with addiction. I realized I was 'different' at eight. In many ways, this is how I feel - like an eight year old trying to navigate an adult world. Trying to pick up some of the pieces I missed decades ago because I was so, so, so wrapped up in secrecy and isolation.

[Kaelin]

This post will use Sternberg's idea of intimacy, pertaining to "closeness."

Deeply personal matters (particularly ongoing ones) require a higher intimacy threshold to reveal, and people who have them need to build a deeper level of closeness before they can have "everything in the open."  Yet the feeling of having to hold back can just as well diminish feelings of intimacy, escalating the difficulty involved (and the other person sensing that reservation can also slow the intimacy-development process).  For these very reasons, the more we think of our non-conforming status as a deep secret, the more it holds up back from developing our relationships with others.

Of course life's not quite that simple, because depending on our environment and our place in society, that extra sharing can directly hurt or sometimes help us in predictable and unpredictable ways.  Still, the most important step we can take is to love who we are and embrace intrinsically innocuous matters such as not conforming to the expectations of our assigned gender (rather than the shame typically expected of us).  Doing so allows us to deal with the rest of our lives (including other gender-related matters) with greater nuance and carry ourselves with the poise required when the matter of our identity or expression does come up (and not avoid more than necessary or to be ashamed).

[Tanya W]

This post will use Sternberg's idea of intimacy, pertaining to "closeness."

A beautiful and articulate post, Kaelin. Your clarity and precision may have made my day!

[Stochastic]

insideontheoutside, Tanya W, and michelle_kelly,

I understand your difficulties because I have been there too, but I have also found many positives from my experience. I have learned from a very young age that I can not depend on others to solve my problems. Being transgendered has made me a self reliant and determined yet empathetic person. Hope you can find a positives as well.

Julia

[Tanya W]

Hope you can find a positives as well.

This has been a most provocative comment, Julia. I have been mulling it over for days. 'Positives!?!?' I ask myself. 'In being trans?!?!'

Personally, I am still struggling with full acceptance of this situation and many days are spent in an alternating hurricane of panic and despair. In the midst of this, positives are hard to see. It is not that they don't exist, but it is difficult for me to see them.

This where your comment comes in. It feels like you are inviting me to consider the question, 'What are the positives in being trans for me?' Empathy, sensitivity, an ability to see many sides / possibilities - these and more come up, which is helpful in a 'whew it's not all horrible' kind of way.

What is striking me as even more interesting, however, is the space in which I am able to experience and note these positives. I cannot access any of these when I consider myself as either 'male' or 'female'. When residing in these extremes, I end up whirling about in the hurricane mentioned above - my mind is racing, my body on fire, my ability to see or feel or sense near wholly consumed by these.

On the other hand, when I am able to rest between these two extremes - letting my body appear as it appears ('male', by the way), my internal experience arise as it arises (typically 'female', sometimes 'neutral') - the hurricane subsides and the positives already mentioned become much, much more accessible to me. It is literally as if I am another person. It actually feels okay.

Which makes me wonder: I have read a great deal about the spiritual potency of transgender folk in traditional cultures. In most of this reading, this power is affirmed but never explained or exemplified. Might this potency arise, in part, out of the sort of 'in between' state some us us find ourselves in? In shamanic  - and other spiritual - work, 'in between' is a place of great uncertainty and, consequently, great promise and power. Might this be what your question has allowed me to touch here today?

           

[insideontheoutside]

Which makes me wonder: I have read a great deal about the spiritual potency of transgender folk in traditional cultures. In most of this reading, this power is affirmed but never explained or exemplified. Might this potency arise, in part, out of the sort of 'in between' state some us us find ourselves in? In shamanic  - and other spiritual - work, 'in between' is a place of great uncertainty and, consequently, great promise and power. Might this be what your question has allowed me to touch here today?
           

While Julia's quote made you think (not that it didn't make me think too ... I can see positives in my situation), your comment above, Tanya, made me think!

[Tanya W]

While Julia's quote made you think (not that it didn't make me think too ... I can see positives in my situation), your comment above, Tanya, made me think!

I am curious to hear what comes up for you in this regard. It may, however, require another thread!

[JoanneB]

I'll run with intimacy as a close open personal relationship and not the child proof alternate for sex version.

When you cannot be open and intimate with yourself how can possibly be with others? We try in every way to suppress a very large aspect of our true beings while also building this Holly wood facade to fill in the voids. The image we feel we need to project to the world must always be maintained, reinforced. If anyone in anyway sees through the weakness we are hiding behind our world will come crumbling down.

The cost of coming even close to our real selves is high. For many that have tried showing a little, the cost of open and honest, intimate, is far far higher.Usually ending in a bad way. However the rewards can be great.

In comming to accept myself I have also been able, in fact drive, to be more open and honest with my wife. This intimacy has been crucial in us still being together during this struggle of mine which deeply effects her.

[Gina Taylor]

Even though I was totally honest with my wife when we met about my need for dressing as a woman, when it came to intimacy my heart or mind was never into it and I was alwasy doing it for her.

[Tanya W]

When you cannot be open and intimate with yourself how can possibly be with others?

And there it is...

I notice this again and again in my relationships. I am able to be open and intimate to a point. In fact, I am often applauded for my openness and intimacy with others.

Soon, however, we begin edging toward the forbidden - that landscape that I know is there, but have historically avoided. I start feeling tension when I am with the other. The sense of protectiveness and hiding increase. More and more I feel I am play-acting in our exchanges - calling in my responses. Some people have, over the years, even commented upon this.

As all this occurs our interactions strangely decrease. They don't call quite so much. I don't reach out. They don't call at all. Still I don't reach out. Eventually, I realize it has been years since we last spoke.

Perhaps, based on this, I can offer a revision of Joanne's words: We can only be open and intimate with others to the extent we are able to be open and intimate with ourselves. The line this fact draws in the sand has cost a lot of friendships over the years. The extent to which dysphoria / transgender has been the motivator for my picking up a stick and drawing this line is beginning to stun me.

I am tremendously lonely.   

[insideontheoutside]

Soon, however, we begin edging toward the forbidden - that landscape that I know is there, but have historically avoided. I start feeling tension when I am with the other. The sense of protectiveness and hiding increase. More and more I feel I am play-acting in our exchanges - calling in my responses. Some people have, over the years, even commented upon this.

I've had a couple weeks to think about this. I'm not sure if your "forbidden" realm is the same as mine (mine is most decidedly actual physical contact that requires the removing of clothing), but I'm still torn about whether I actually desire to go into my own forbidden realm with anyone, or whether what I desire more is just to feel like everyone else or rather, to feel "normal". And that of course begs the question of whether that's even possible to feel normal.

I was having a discussion with a friend of mine (the same one who says they would foray into the forbidden realm with me), mentioning things like "rules" I have placed on myself (and consequently, others), and how much different I feel from people, especially when it actually comes down to sex. Her argument was that it really is all in my head (the different part) and that if I just accepted that there are people like me out there, and that it's not that I have the "wrong parts", it's that I refuse to accept that another person could possible want me for who I am, and not whatever parts I happen to have, that I would find some peace about it. But when we have these discussions it just makes me upset. It makes me feel like she really doesn't understand what I go through. I have no doubt she's being honest, but it's just I still can't seem to navigate around physical realities and how certain situations do not make me feel good at all, but quite the opposite.

I realize I'm actually quite jealous of people (regardless of their gender or any gender issues) who can manage to just let go and enjoy being with another person – to be spontaneous about it, to actually get physical joy out of it. This is a problem I've tried to approach from many different angles but always find myself either angry, frustrated, jealous, lonely, or hating my own body again. And I wonder how many trans people have managed to come to some internal harmony about it. My friend has said she has been with another trans person who identified as male and mentioned that they just "rolled with it" and "enjoyed themselves". This was a total alien concept to me. I've never just "rolled with it". It's always been a forced act to either pretend to be something I'm not, or pretend to be something I am, but without the parts to match.

And then after another circular conversation with my friend, she ends up frustrated as well saying that I refuse to see any positives in my situation, or to even try to. On top of that it makes her feel like I don't believe her or that I don't care enough to give it a shot. I do realize that over the years I have taken the "easy way out", so to speak, and basically just pushed people away. I even married someone that has zero interest in sex. But I'm back to struggling with my own internal demons, trying to decipher whether I really do have a sex drive and want to get close to someone, or whether I really don't and never did and it's all been pretend or just striving to feel "normal".

[stavraki]

I was reading another post and caught the line that went something like, "I've pushed away everyone who wanted to get close to me", and it made me think about how many times I've done that in my life and that led to me thinking how the way I am has seriously effected how I deal with intimacy with others.

How many are in that boat? How many have just uncomfortably "faked" times of intimacy with someone just to get through it? Or avoided it at all costs?

When your brain and your body don't completely match up, it basically ruins having an intimate relationship with someone unless you can find some way to get over your personal issues. Even with someone who said they accepted me as I was and said they were attracted to me. I couldn't get over my own issues with my body.

My fear of intimacy, on those occasions it can or does come out, can come out as 'battling' rather than 'withdrawing'.  That usually happens when I sense something in the other person that scares or invades me (I can peg it with 'abusive language' or 'criticisms of me' or 'controlling behaviour, like yelling about being late 30 minutes).  I never match them in the abuse.  I don't name even name call.  I just get very wordy as I try to get the other to see what they're doing.

Usually doesn't work.  I find it better to take some space and reconnect when empathy can be re-established...