Am I the only one bothered by this?

[Carrie Liz]

Yeah... it definitely bothers me. Because I've pretty much known that I wanted SRS since I was like 13 years old, and my conviction has never waned in regards to that. My bodily dysphoria is still very high in that regard, to the point where I feel like I'm not able to have a normal healthy relationship with my body as long as that obnoxious appendage is still down there. Whereas the social aspects, although they do bother me, have never been as bad for me in terms of dysphoria.

Honestly, the current setup feels backwards to me. Genitals are something that, in the grand scheme of life, mean NOTHING. Maybe three or four people during your entire lifetime will ever care what they are. Whereas your gender presentation is something that affects your life on such a deep and complete level that it permeates every single facet of your existence and will permanently change how you interact with the world forever.

I can't socially transition yet because I'm still not getting gendered female by anyone, so I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female while they're still very clearly seeing a male. But I can't have this surgery, something that I've been convicted about getting for my entire adult life, something that I feel like I can't function sexually on a basic level without, and something that I'd be totally fine still having had done even if for some unforeseeable reason I decide to not transition fully, because my countdown clock doesn't even start until that major life-changing switch that I want to make absolute sure I'm completely 100% ready for is already over. That really rubs me the wrong way that I have to do something that could potentially destroy my entire life if I don't do it right, just in order to be eligible for a freaking cosmetic procedure that would do absolutely nothing negative socially and its only affect would be to make me feel better about my own body.

I can understand having an HRT requirement for SRS, since a trial run with hormones usually quickly separates out the fantasy-only crowd. And I can definitely understand requiring letters from therapists saying that you're mentally sound and doing this for a reason that they deem appropriate, and that you're willing to accept full responsibility for the outcome. But the 1-year RLE requirement, to me at least, I only see as an unnecessary hindrance keeping a lot of people who really would benefit from it from getting it done, and keeping them in a body they hate even longer.

[Cindy]

Yeah... it definitely bothers me. Because I've pretty much known that I wanted SRS since I was like 13 years old, and my conviction has never waned in regards to that. My bodily dysphoria is still very high in that regard, to the point where I feel like I'm not able to have a normal healthy relationship with my body as long as that obnoxious appendage is still down there. Whereas the social aspects, although they do bother me, have never been as bad for me in terms of dysphoria.

Honestly, the current setup feels backwards to me. Genitals are something that, in the grand scheme of life, mean NOTHING. Maybe three or four people during your entire lifetime will ever care what they are. Whereas your gender presentation is something that affects your life on such a deep and complete level that it permeates every single facet of your existence and will permanently change how you interact with the world forever.

I can't socially transition yet because I'm still not getting gendered female by anyone, so I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female while they're still very clearly seeing a male. But I can't have this surgery, something that I've been convicted about getting for my entire adult life, something that I feel like I can't function sexually on a basic level without, and something that I'd be totally fine still having had done even if for some unforeseeable reason I decide to not transition fully, because my countdown clock doesn't even start until that major life-changing switch that I want to make absolute sure I'm completely 100% ready for is already over. That really rubs me the wrong way that I have to do something that could potentially destroy my entire life if I don't do it right, just in order to be eligible for a freaking cosmetic procedure that would do absolutely nothing negative socially and its only affect would be to make me feel better about my own body.

I can understand having an HRT requirement for SRS, since a trial run with hormones usually quickly separates out the fantasy-only crowd. And I can definitely understand requiring letters from therapists saying that you're mentally sound and doing this for a reason that they deem appropriate, and that you're willing to accept full responsibility for the outcome. But the 1-year RLE requirement, to me at least, I only see as an unnecessary hindrance keeping a lot of people who really would benefit from it from getting it done, and keeping them in a body they hate even longer.

I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?

[Sophia Hawke]

I'm pretty sure most informed consent doctors are going to want to hear from a therapist at some point, at least all the ones ive looked at do.

[KabitTarah]

I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?

I read it as GRS is more important to her than the social transition. RLE stands in the way.

[Cindy]

I read it as GRS is more important to her than the social transition. RLE stands in the way.

I hate talking without the OP opinion but I would question why - and that is where a therapist is/maybe important.  I don't care if I pass or not, but I do not need GRS to validate that opinion. I'll have GRS/SRS/GCS as soon as I can.

Maybe there is a confusion in my mind here? It can easily happen!

Maybe I'm in total agreement and didn't understand what was being said.

[suzifrommd]

Honestly, the current setup feels backwards to me. Genitals are something that, in the grand scheme of life, mean NOTHING. Maybe three or four people during your entire lifetime will ever care what they are.

I really like how you worded this.

I can't socially transition yet because I'm still not getting gendered female by anyone, so I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female while they're still very clearly seeing a male.

Carrie, can challenge this statement? Obvious it feels true to you, but I know a lot of people who socially transition who do not pass as female (though everyone treats them as women now). The gendering of female is a result of transition, not a prerequisite.

It may be that you are uncomfortable transitioning with your current level of passability. I'm just inviting  you to consider that that has more to do with your level of comfort and readiness.

I suppose the real question here is 'does a one size fits all' protocol work? If not what should be in place?

Very well stated. Hard to answer.

For me, I have no problem with RLE, I just find it a needless exercise. It isn't helping me personally figure out whether SRS is right for me. Given that, it seems wasteful to ask every one to do it when at least one person I know (and a few others by the posts in this thread) are not finding that it serves it's intended purpose.

The ancients used to sacrifice to their gods for rain each spring. We no longer do that, since we know that rain comes from weather, not deities. It was a useless activity. Problem is the people with the power to require RLE aren't the people who actually pay the cost of going through it so they see not reason to reevaluate their procedure.

Would a one-year waiting period work? Probably a question for the surgeons, since RLE is really for them, because they need to know they're not hopelessly screwing someone up by operating.

[RavenMoon]

The only part I don't agree w/ is the not really living as a woman bit. Passing is not the definition of living as a female. Being female is the definition of being a female

True, but I meant the experience as to how other people see you. We all relate to being female, but how does the rest of the world treat us? That's what I meant.

[RavenMoon]

I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?

Exactly. No one you interact with on a day to day basis knows what you have down there, they see your face first.

I think GRS is the last step to be done. And the SOC says that too.

[Carrie Liz]

I may be reading this wrong, and please correct me, how will GRS allow you to be accepted? And what difference would that make to you?

Yup, you're definitely reading it wrong. Because I never said anything about GRS making me more accepted. I actually said the opposite, that I'm well aware that SRS is basically something that has zero effect whatsoever on your social life. What I did say is that I feel like I can't function SEXUALLY with my current anatomy, and that I have very high feelings of genital dysphoria, where my social dysphoria isn't as bad.

Carrie, can challenge this statement? Obvious it feels true to you, but I know a lot of people who socially transition who do not pass as female (though everyone treats them as women now). The gendering of female is a result of transition, not a prerequisite.

Yeah, I guess that's a personal thing. In my own mind, I don't feel like I can reasonably expect people to accept me as female if everyone is still very clearly gendering me male even when I'm wearing female clothes. I'm not saying that I'm going to wait until I pass to everyone all of the time before I do it, because then I'd probably never make it at all. But until I get gendered female by at least SOMEONE, so that I can know that I look at least reasonably female, I don't feel like I can do it yet. I'd like to pass to at least a few people first.

[Tessa James]

I agree that the so called RLE or test is arbitrary, capricious, unenforceable and out dated.  I am one of those who is having a fantastic time transitioning, passable or not and, will not allow the tyranny of the nameless majority to decide my fate.  We really are so very unique and the decision to have GRS is dependent on more variables than the mere passage of time.  Where's the proof we have to show a surgeon that we have been out all year?  Daily pictures in a dress?  How would that work for someone who never leaves the house?

The gatekeeper thing feels like the intrusive nanny state.  I accept that HRT or surgery is my responsibility to understand.  I accept that living with my true identity expressed has real value and is helping me learn and understand my new place in the world.  For me that is voluntary and I reject the formulaic concepts that once required that only the passable could apply.  Today's dogma, tomorrow's dog ->-bleeped-<-.

We are still dependent, to a large degree, on the surgeon or clinic policy or standards.  I am grateful to be living in a progressive era when understanding is changing the rules and hopefully a few hearts along the way.

[RavenMoon]

but I know a lot of people who socially transition who do not pass as female (though everyone treats them as women now).

"Everyone" being friends or strangers? Sometimes strangers are just polite, but they know someone is not female. If that's acceptable to the person, then that's fine. Also depending on where you live it can get you killed. That happened not to far from where I live recently.

Clearly we all have different ideas of what we want in our transition. I know I'm not the only one who wants to just blend in as a female without even thinking about he word "passing." Transition means to cross from one state to another. Worrying about passing means you didn't finish that transition yet.

That doesn't mean I'm trying to be "stealth" either per se, but I have zero desire to be seen as a man in women's clothing. So my goal is to transition and then never have to use the word transition again. 

This is what my friend Victoria Esher calls the "Ick Factor" (she wrote this after a conversation we had about my concerns about passing)

http://tg.victoriaescher.com/ick-factor-let-others-transition/

As with everything this is just one opinion. 

[RavenMoon]

Where's the proof we have to show a surgeon that we have been out all year?  Daily pictures in a dress?  How would that work for someone who never leaves the house?

Or never wears dresses? I know at least one women that never wears dresses, and pretty much dresses like me. Or maybe I dress like her. lol

Very nice post by the way. You have a way with words.

[suzifrommd]

"Everyone" being friends or strangers?

One friend reports that she "never has problems" with anybody misgendering her. I've heard others say the same thing.

Worrying about passing means you didn't finish that transition yet.

Would this mean that a woman who will never pass - someone who has huge hands for example - can't complete her transition?

[Adam (birkin)]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and having looked at this thread I have a few thoughts on it...

- I think the RLE (with HRT) can potentially be helpful in the sense that, perhaps someone would be happy presenting as their "new" gender in public without having to have surgeries. They may enter the process believing they want the "whole shebang" and then come out of it realizing that they were happy keeping the parts they were born with. And if that's the case, more power to them I say.

- I'm also not convinced it's 100% about whether or not you will be happy in your "new" gender (as in, proof that you re truly male or female). Transition comes with a great deal of other challenges, social, but also emotional. I can honestly say that as much as I thought through the challenges of transition, there were some that I just didn't see coming until I started HRT and began actually...being physically in-between. That was a very hard stage, where I didn't know if people saw a man or a woman and I occasionally heard people asking. No amount of surgery would have helped with that, and some people may end up not being able to pass perfectly or near perfectly. That's a HUGE challenge and a huge emotional hurdle to overcome, should that be a person's reality. So the question was never about, could Caleb function as male, it was could Caleb function being seen in between? Could I have emotionally handled SRS if that ended up being my life? Could I have gotten on with life and been a healthy, functional member of society if I was seen as female (or as visibly trans) for the rest of my life? I can't answer that question. But I could only begin to have an inkling of how this would make me feel by living as male and being visibly (by my appearance, not by outing myself) trans.

[RavenMoon]

One friend reports that she "never has problems" with anybody misgendering her. I've heard others say the same thing.

And that's wonderful. 

Also some people are more gender nonconforming than a transsexual. I'm a transsexual and make no excuses about it. I've dressed gender nonconforming most of my life, and want to go further than that now. And that's for how I see myself, and not how others see me, but how others see me is part of who we are. Life is confusing at times, no?

Would this mean that a woman who will never pass - someone who has huge hands for example - can't complete her transition?

I have kind of wide hands, but long fingers. I attribute that to playing guitar and bass since I was 11. The rest of me is small, so they look out of proportion. 

But look at this woman's hands. They look just like mine!



(Yes, that made me wonder if she was trans, but I don't think so, and if she is she looks great.)

I think there's more to it than hands. Honesty the biggest thing seems to be the face. The thing that always makes me spot a trans lady is an overly prominent nose. And yes, some cis women have big noses, but it's different, and even they should do something about it. (can you tell I don't like my nose? lol)

I'll be the first person to say I've become rather opinionated as I got older. I don't mean to ruffle feathers, and I'm really very open minded. I'm a very sweet Scorpio.    I just think some people don't try hard enough (trans, cis, or otherwise). And it's usually them saying they don't care, or believing they don't need to, and no one will tell them otherwise. Sometimes giving constructive criticism is a good thing. If I was out in public and looking bad I want someone to tell me... PLEASE! This is why I stopped posting in the "Do I Pass" threads, because sometimes they really don't and no one will say so.

But this is just my opinion. 

[RavenMoon]

I've been thinking about this a lot, and having looked at this thread I have a few thoughts on it...

- I think the RLE (with HRT) can potentially be helpful in the sense that, perhaps someone would be happy presenting as their "new" gender in public without having to have surgeries. They may enter the process believing they want the "whole shebang" and then come out of it realizing that they were happy keeping the parts they were born with. And if that's the case, more power to them I say.

Good post!

I want the whole shebang, but at this stage in my life don't care as much about the bottom part. I don't hate it, but I also don't really use it much anymore. lol An orchiectomy might be enough for me at first. As long as my clothes aren't lumpy I'm happy.

I care more about how people see me. I've always been that way. I don't leave the house on bad hair days lol (not true, but almost true) It's a personality flaw I guess.

I seriously put off my transition because I disliked growing older. I figured if I was unhappy as a middle aged man I'd me more unhappy as a middle aged woman. But I got a lot of encouragement from a good friend who is a trans woman, and we are almost the same age. She started her transition in her mid 40s. She said "do you want to be at the end of your life one day and realize you should have done it? Major fail!" That woke me up!

- I'm also not convinced it's 100% about whether or not you will be happy in your "new" gender (as in, proof that you re truly male or female). Transition comes with a great deal of other challenges, social, but also emotional. I can honestly say that as much as I thought through the challenges of transition, there were some that I just didn't see coming until I started HRT and began actually...being physically in-between. That was a very hard stage, where I didn't know if people saw a man or a woman and I occasionally heard people asking. No amount of surgery would have helped with that, and some people may end up not being able to pass perfectly or near perfectly. That's a HUGE challenge and a huge emotional hurdle to overcome, should that be a person's reality. So the question was never about, could Caleb function as male, it was could Caleb function being seen in between? Could I have emotionally handled SRS if that ended up being my life? Could I have gotten on with life and been a healthy, functional member of society if I was seen as female (or as visibly trans) for the rest of my life? I can't answer that question. But I could only begin to have an inkling of how this would make me feel by living as male and being visibly (by my appearance, not by outing myself) trans.

I really fear the in-between stage. I want to start HRT as soon as I can, but realize I would be happier with some FFS (and hair removal of course), and I need to start saving up for that. It's extremely frustrating, and takes everything I have not to jump out the nearest window! But I've had gender dysphoria my whole life, and made it this far (barely) so a few more years won't kill me (knock on wood). I wish I didn't care about my appearance so much, but that's who I am. 

You are so right about challenges. We did not grow up as girls. It's a whole different culture, and they are often treated differently, and not always in a good way. My mother raised me as a gentleman, but some men are asses. You have to walk in someone's shoes.. or pumps in this case.   As an example of culture shock, I was married to an African-American woman, and have two bi-racial kids. Talk about people staring? Even to this day, I'll be on the bus with my daughter, and people look at us like we have two heads... so she's a little tan girl with a huge bushy afro and I have on purple nail polish... lol Also, I remember my ex telling me once in a shoe store that we were being followed to make sure she wasn't shop lifting! She worked on Wall Street for crying out loud. That made me see that people are often treated differently because of how they look. And I had no idea because I don't live their lives.

So I'm expecting a whole lot of new experiences as a woman. Both good and bad. Just buying clothes has a learning curve!

But I can't wait...

Hope my experiences help shed a little light on this for others. We all seem to have similar stores to tell. That's why I love it here.

[calico]

RLE/RLT never really sat well in my head either I just cant get past "test" or "experience" to me that wording emphasizes that you are in some study program or your trying to reach a qualification and that its "just" a temporary state, it leaves/ left a bad taste in my mouth, I feel it needs some rewording/ reworking to be more current and up to date perhaps mixed in with the informed consent as well kinda a 50/50 partake. like instead of it being a test perhaps it coul0d be just "has been living for at least" etc if ya get what I mean by that. sorta basically a minimum requirement. idk this is just a spurt out of my head   

[RavenMoon]

I can understand that they want people to be sure that this is what they want before having surgery. But I honestly think if you went that far you meant it!

I don't know what the day-to-day life is like for most women, but I don't see how it matters. It only matters for my day-to-day life. And I'm already living that, except I have to live it as a man, even though that's not how I feel.

So how could living as your true gender be anything but liberating? I mean please, I'd do it tomorrow if I could.

Maybe this is all about avoiding lawsuits?

[kinz]

what bothers me most is like, the concept of RLE/RLT makes it seem like trans people aren't leading lives in accordance to their gender, like. if you are a woman, you are leading your day-to-day life as a woman! your experiences as a woman are not less legitimate because you're not cis, your health issues are women's issues, it's not you who's leading a "false life", it's the rest of the world who's falsely identifying you. now, for people for whom social dysphoria is a thing, that doesn't mean it's wrong to feel like you're presenting yourself in a way you feel is insincere or not reflective of who you truly are. but in my opinion that's not something that has to do with someone's feelings about their body.

so what frustrates me about a lot of this construction is this idea that a lot of psychological establishments promulgate that you have to be seen/want to be seen as conventionally feminine/masculine, have to be seen/want to be perceived as cis in society and "disappear", and generally have to adhere to the orthodoxy of a bunch of old cis dudes who CANNOT POSSIBLY IMAGINE what it is to live our lives, feel what we feel, and have the relationship to gender that we do, in order to be legitimate. so—there's nothing WRONG with having those wants/desires/needs, but to impose it as a blanket on everyone, and to withhold recognition of people's lives as "genuine" or "real" unless they follow those rules? that strikes me as absolutely cruel.

[LizMarie]

Some of us also have extreme body dysphoria. On more than one occasion when I was young, I thought about "cutting it off". My marriage was wracked by long intermittent periods of being unable to function sexually at all, because I was dysphoric that I have a penis not a vagina.

So, quite honestly, even if I was gendered male in public for the rest of my life, if I could have SRS, I would, because for me every day when I get out of the shower, or go to the bathroom, this is a constant reminder of what is wrong with me.

Lots of others don't have body dysphoria like I do. I understand and accept that. Honestly, I plan to do SRS first (especially if I can get insurance coverage for it), then FFS, then probably VFS. So while it's not a big deal to society, it's a big deal to me.

Even so, as I've mentioned, RLE was one way for the medical profession to reduce "regret" issues with SRS surgery. It's not a very good tool but it's the only tool they had. And yes, it's giving way to informed consent. I wonder if cases of regret will rise again the way they were before the WPATH SOC earlier versions were published?