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Intellectual Spinning: Natural vs. Spiritual Pantheism, Ignosticism, I-Theism

Started by Ev, April 21, 2014, 07:08:45 AM

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Ev

According to Wikipedia:

"Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity,[1] or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god.[3] Some Eastern religions are considered to be pantheistically inclined.

Pantheism was popularized in the West as both a theology and philosophy based on the work of the 17th-century philosopher Baruch Spinoza,[4]:p.7 whose book Ethics was an answer to Descartes' famous dualist theory that the body and spirit are separate.[5] Spinoza held the monist view that the two are the same, and monism is a fundamental part of his philosophy. He was described as a "God-intoxicated man," and used the word God to describe the unity of all substance.[5] Although the term pantheism was not coined until after his death, Spinoza is regarded as its most celebrated advocate.[6]"

Take in mind that while I am for all effects and purposes a de-facto atheist, things like religion and philosophy intrigue me.  I am more of an anti-theist or even an I-theist...worshipping the Self and Ego instead of externalizing my "higher power."  One day, a friend asked me a question that could be considered irrelevant to my philosophy.  But since I was his friend I humored him.  The question was this:

"If there was some sort of external god, what would you (I) rather it be?"

Being an androgynous person, I latched onto the word "It" instead of "He" or "She."  So "It" it was.  I always thought that people modeled their god after them...so it was fitting that I would say this...but anyways, I told him the external "It" would have to be the Universe Itself.

I still wouldn't believe in the Supernatural, mind you, but I have entertained the idea of the Universe being Its own creator and ours as well.  It would not be "sentient" and it would lack personality...It is indeed indifferent...and we would still be an "accident" for lack of better terms.  I don't know about you, but the idea that I may not have been, but still have been, is far more exciting and joyous than thinking something "pre-ordained" my birth.  I mean, really: to defy the odds or to be because something else said so?  I like the odds of being the little fighter-rebel who beat out others to be here.  Now one can argue once you remove the supernatural, "God" as a word becomes weak/unneccisary: but I am a symbolic person and so can understand the meaning behind the word "god" even if the word "god" isn't something we agree on the meaning of.  I have also entertained the thought that if we cannot decide what "god" really is, can we really say "there is no god?"  If god is what you make of Him/Her/It, then "god" can exist as a symbolism or word of reverence, even if there is no theology/religion/supernatural entity behind it.

Which brings me to ignosticism, as described by Wikipedia:

"Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that every theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts; including (but not limited to) concepts of faith, spirituality, heaven, hell, afterlife, damnation, salvation, sin and the soul.

Ignosticism is the view that any religious term or theological concept presented must be accompanied by a coherent definition. Without a clear definition such terms cannot be meaningfully discussed. Such terms or concepts must also be falsifiable. Lacking this an ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the existence or nature of the terms presented (and all matters of debate) is meaningless. For example, if the term "God" does not refer to anything reasonably defined then there is no conceivable method to test against the existence of god. Therefore the term "God" has no literal significance and need not be debated or discussed.

Some philosophers have seen ignosticism as a variation of agnosticism or atheism,[1] while others have considered it to be distinct."

So, if we cannot decide on what "god" really is, can we even say there is none?  To what standard are we saying "there is none" of?

Backtracking to I-Theism: if I believe I am my own god and there is nothing external to worship, can I really be called an atheist?  Depends on what you define "god" as.  I may not be a true atheist to some if I believe there can be symbolic gods.  Hence my position as de-facto atheist.  (Look up de facto if you must.)

And oh, my head hurts now!   :laugh:

I find all this to be silly, mind you, but I am boored.  Spin the brain on this one for now if you are boored like me, and you may find that you'll have more success with a Rubik's cube.

  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Ev on April 21, 2014, 07:08:45 AM
According to Wikipedia:

"Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity,[1] or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God.[2] Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god.[3] Some Eastern religions are considered to be pantheistically inclined.

Pantheism was popularized in the West as both a theology and philosophy based on the work of the 17th-century philosopher Baruch Spinoza,[4]:p.7 whose book Ethics was an answer to Descartes' famous dualist theory that the body and spirit are separate.[5] Spinoza held the monist view that the two are the same, and monism is a fundamental part of his philosophy. He was described as a "God-intoxicated man," and used the word God to describe the unity of all substance.[5] Although the term pantheism was not coined until after his death, Spinoza is regarded as its most celebrated advocate.[6]"

Take in mind that while I am for all effects and purposes a de-facto atheist, things like religion and philosophy intrigue me.  I am more of an anti-theist or even an I-theist...worshipping the Self and Ego instead of externalizing my "higher power."  One day, a friend asked me a question that could be considered irrelevant to my philosophy.  But since I was his friend I humored him.  The question was this:

"If there was some sort of external god, what would you (I) rather it be?"

Being an androgynous person, I latched onto the word "It" instead of "He" or "She."  So "It" it was.  I always thought that people modeled their god after them...so it was fitting that I would say this...but anyways, I told him the external "It" would have to be the Universe Itself.

I still wouldn't believe in the Supernatural, mind you, but I have entertained the idea of the Universe being Its own creator and ours as well.  It would not be "sentient" and it would lack personality...It is indeed indifferent...and we would still be an "accident" for lack of better terms.  I don't know about you, but the idea that I may not have been, but still have been, is far more exciting and joyous than thinking something "pre-ordained" my birth.  I mean, really: to defy the odds or to be because something else said so?  I like the odds of being the little fighter-rebel who beat out others to be here.  Now one can argue once you remove the supernatural, "God" as a word becomes weak/unneccisary: but I am a symbolic person and so can understand the meaning behind the word "god" even if the word "god" isn't something we agree on the meaning of.  I have also entertained the thought that if we cannot decide what "god" really is, can we really say "there is no god?"  If god is what you make of Him/Her/It, then "god" can exist as a symbolism or word of reverence, even if there is no theology/religion/supernatural entity behind it.

Which brings me to ignosticism, as described by Wikipedia:

"Ignosticism or igtheism is the idea that every theological position assumes too much about the concept of God and other theological concepts; including (but not limited to) concepts of faith, spirituality, heaven, hell, afterlife, damnation, salvation, sin and the soul.

Ignosticism is the view that any religious term or theological concept presented must be accompanied by a coherent definition. Without a clear definition such terms cannot be meaningfully discussed. Such terms or concepts must also be falsifiable. Lacking this an ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the existence or nature of the terms presented (and all matters of debate) is meaningless. For example, if the term "God" does not refer to anything reasonably defined then there is no conceivable method to test against the existence of god. Therefore the term "God" has no literal significance and need not be debated or discussed.

Some philosophers have seen ignosticism as a variation of agnosticism or atheism,[1] while others have considered it to be distinct."

So, if we cannot decide on what "god" really is, can we even say there is none?  To what standard are we saying "there is none" of?

Backtracking to I-Theism: if I believe I am my own god and there is nothing external to worship, can I really be called an atheist?  Depends on what you define "god" as.  I may not be a true atheist to some if I believe there can be symbolic gods.  Hence my position as de-facto atheist.  (Look up de facto if you must.)

And oh, my head hurts now!   :laugh:

I find all this to be silly, mind you, but I am boored.  Spin the brain on this one for now if you are boored like me, and you may find that you'll have more success with a Rubik's cube.

Kia Ora Ev,

It's a no brainer... God, gods, no  god/s... it's all in the mind.

"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind-The mind is the root from which "all" things grow-If you can understand the mind everything else is included!



Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Ev

Quote from: Anatta on April 21, 2014, 04:50:36 PM
Kia Ora Ev,

It's a no brainer... God, gods, no  god/s... it's all in the mind.

"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind-The mind is the root from which "all" things grow-If you can understand the mind everything else is included!



Metta Anatta :)



Again, I am an atheist for all effects and purposes: but for fun every now and then I entertain these thoughts, esp. being a fantasy/sci-fi writer who includes "gods" as plot elements/characters.  I really have a lot of fun with the Gnostic side of things, with all their metaphysical paradoxes and demiurge/the Unknown: be/not be, is/not is, "god" trancends the need for existence/non-existence, not hot/not cold/there is no hot and there is no cold (but there is.)  It is a lot of fun to play around with in my opinion...but whoa yeah, it'll drive you crazy after awhile.   ;D
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Ev on April 21, 2014, 06:18:02 PM


Again, I am an atheist for all effects and purposes: but for fun every now and then I entertain these thoughts, esp. being a fantasy/sci-fi writer who includes "gods" as plot elements/characters.  I really have a lot of fun with the Gnostic side of things, with all their metaphysical paradoxes and demiurge/the Unknown: be/not be, is/not is, "god" trancends the need for existence/non-existence, not hot/not cold/there is no hot and there is no cold (but there is.)  It is a lot of fun to play around with in my opinion...but whoa yeah, it'll drive you crazy after awhile.   ;D

Kia Ora Ev,

In my younger years I use to read a lot of sci-fi books(for me a form of escapism I guess)...However the interesting thing about writers of sci-fi is how what they write can often evolve into sci-fa[ct]...

The mind is truly a magical mystery tour-full of wonder and knowing...

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Ev

Quote from: Anatta on April 22, 2014, 04:15:23 PM
Kia Ora Ev,

In my younger years I use to read a lot of sci-fi books(for me a form of escapism I guess)...However the interesting thing about writers of sci-fi is how what they write can often evolve into sci-fa[ct]...

The mind is truly a magical mystery tour-full of wonder and knowing...

Metta Anatta :)

Yes.  Like HG Wells put a man on the moon (The First Men in the Moon), nuclear weapons (The World Set Free), lasers (The War of the Worlds), and genetic engineering (Island of Dr. Moreau) for starters.

I myself made my own predictions in my own Book 0, but they are more hidden and more so on the socio-political side of things than science...unless, of course, we learn to create "artificial" life from turning holograms solid.  ("What is life?" is the question there.)
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Ev on April 22, 2014, 04:35:48 PM
Yes.  Like HG Wells put a man on the moon (The First Men in the Moon), nuclear weapons (The World Set Free), lasers (The War of the Worlds), and genetic engineering (Island of Dr. Moreau) for starters.

I myself made my own predictions in my own Book 0, but they are more hidden and more so on the socio-political side of things than science...unless, of course, we learn to create "artificial" life from turning holograms solid.  ("What is life?" is the question there.)

Kia Ora Ev,

In its simplicity ...life is just 'knowing' ...

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •