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Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?

Started by suzifrommd, September 22, 2014, 01:25:53 PM

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Taka

people amputate other limbs for religious reasons nowadays.
some do it because of a body dysphoria that is way too eaay to dismiss as a mental disorder.

what if the need is programmed in brain structure?
what if the person is of a sound mind and fully realizes how crazy their needs seem to others, and even themselves, but no therapy can releave them of the dysphoria?

are we going to tell people that sorry, you will not be allowed to do what's needed to finally be rid of your pain.
are we dooming them to a life in unhappiness just to feel better about ourselves?

is it really ok to close all roads out of misery, so that suicide really and truly becomes the only way out?

shouldn' life be valued over function, if that is what the person chooses for themselves?

i'm not saying let everyone do whatever as ling as thwy can afford it.
just that if therapy can't fix a person's body dysphoria, because it is not caused by any curable mental illness, why not just fix the body?

would it not be good to remember the horror of those days when we'd rather resort to lobotomy than admit that a person can be transsexual, and that a sex change could be a solution?
why is a body change so much worse for those who identify differently, but feel the same pain?
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Allyda

Quote from: JLT1 on October 04, 2014, 10:52:52 PM
Allyda,

WPATH standards do not apply to intersexed individuals.   You should not need a letter from a psych. 

Hugs,

Jen   
Thanks Jen. I thought so but they told me they needed it so this is why I'm upset. I'll have to remind them I'm intersex, and shouldn't need a letter from a therapist.

Again, thanks. :D

Ally ;)
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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Devlyn

"Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?"

Absolutely.
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JLT1

Quote from: Allyda on October 05, 2014, 07:57:02 PM
Thanks Jen. I thought so but they told me they needed it so this is why I'm upset. I'll have to remind them I'm intersex, and shouldn't need a letter from a therapist.

Again, thanks. :D

Ally ;)

Hey,

I took a copy of the WPATH standards with me and showed it to them.   It didn't work but they were embarrassed while they lied to me.....

Hugs,

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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JLT1

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on October 05, 2014, 08:02:28 PM
"Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?"

Absolutely.

Devlyn!

OMG!  I've missed you..........

Hugs,

Jen

(Oh, agree with the post.)
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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Devlyn

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Shantel

Been reading this thread for the first time, some comments are good and some come off as a load of crap! Some people like to submit themselves to a lot of evaluation which is fine for those who can't think for themselves and don't know for certain who they are and what they want to achieve, and I suppose that's good for them. In my experience I didn't do any of that, just showed them the money and got everything I wanted done. Having done all that even one very notable, well known surgeon was ready to perform SRS but I decided it was not essential at the last minute. I have never worn a dress and the only counseling I had was for wartime PTSD issues. In my purview a lot of what goes on as good therapy and the appropriate hoops for some to go through, is nothing more than unnecessary gatekeeping for people like myself who know their own hearts and minds. I really hate to read the insistent know-it-all one-size-fits-all demands of the self-righteous well-intended types who demand that others step in line and follow suit with them. I'm not that vanilla and I'm sure others feel the same. If I wanted a vagina and preferred to continue to present as a male I would do just that!
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AnonyMs

It would be interesting to see a poll on this subject, if anyone is is inclined to set one up. I've no idea how.


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EchelonHunt

AnonyMs, next to New Topic, there is New Poll :) But I'm not sure if making a poll for this kind of topic in Gender Studies would be suitable...? 
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AnonyMs

I must admit I don't usually look at which forums posts are in. I tend to go though the recent topics, as there's interesting posts all over the place. I've no idea if its suitable or not, so I'll leave it to someone else.

My thinking was that there's a lot of discussion here, but its difficult to tell how representative it is in general and I'm curious. I was a quite surprised there could be so much argument for preventing people having SRS. Maybe shocked would be a better word than surprised.

Personally I'm kind of stuck, as I can't transition due to family/work and I've been making myself dangerously ill because of it. When I say can't, I mean I could, but the price to be paid would be very high and I can't bring myself to do it. If I could have SRS, continue to live as an man, and manage to keep going, then why should I not? I see a fair number of people losing their families over this - would you have SRS and try to live as a man effort to keep your family? I'm not sure SRS is enough, as in many ways I think it's a small thing compared to the social side, but its something I'd consider worth trying.

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Devlyn

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Jen72

Shantel you bring an awesome point and yes I think an evaluation should still be in order.

But that evaluation like I had said before should be done on a case by case basis.  Hence not every person is the same therefor not every situation should be remedied the same.

As a general medical example lets say you have some ailment that requires medication.  The first medication (works on 90% of the population) does not work so it is then evaluated to try a different one. Being as this issue is way more complicated of course so does the variation of the remedy for the problem. But to discover the remedy an evaluation is done in the process whether done by professionals and/or yourself. At this point if you live in certain countries you can be limited to more then just money to get the job done so to speak.  I assume you live in the USA which money can buy everything it seems there.  I happen to live in Canada and when it comes to healthcare there is little choice but to follow the loopholes.  Lastly yes WPATH needs to be modified in such a way as to have criteria set forth for everyone not just a general yup this is it thing.  It should not be the total written in stone this is it law rather a guideline used. 

The one thing I see as the problem as the medical profession is most likely made up of CIS people that cant comprehend transgendered therefor are judging/evaluating transgender on something they really can not understand.
For every day that stings better days it brings.
For every road that ends another will begin.

From a song called "Master of the Wind"" by Man O War.

I my opinions hurt anyone it is NOT my intent.  I try to look at things in a neutral manner but we are all biased to a degree.  If I ever post anything wrong PLEASE correct me!  Human after all.
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Shantel

Quote from: Jen72 on October 06, 2014, 11:27:19 AM

The one thing I see as the problem as the medical profession is most likely made up of CIS people that cant comprehend transgendered therefor are judging/evaluating transgender on something they really can not understand.

Precisely, and that's often the elephant in the room!
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Jake25

I think they should do whatever they find appropriate because its their life, and body. Let's just hope that it was well thought out.
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Ange

I've read this topic 1 year and a half ago, when it was still active. I didn't answer it but I felt quite hurt by some comments.

Today I'm 12 monthes HRT, 1.5 month post-op, dilating three times a day. I'm presenting male, I'm defining myself as "a person" and I've never been that happy. I do wear dresses and skirts (especially these days with the donut), and makeup, because it suits me well, but it's pretty rare and it tends to make me really uncomfortable and out of place. Most of the time it's just jeans and a good old sweater.

I went to thailand and gatekeeping was pretty loose. I just had to get 2 letters which were pretty easy to get, without even lying to any of my two psychiatrists. I just said I needed HRT and a Vagina and that I didn't really considered myself as a woman. I described who I was. In 1 hour it was over.

The only thing that annoys me is all the people that says "you're rather androgynous, when are you going to present as female" and "you should change your sens of humour, your jokes are rather manly". There's a billions of things about me that are manly, and a billions of things that are womanly. Not my fault if these criterias just sucks.

Good lord. What's wrong with people, I wonder. Persons are persons. Do you really need to create categories ? I'm sorry but I'm just interested in being happy. And I am, right now.
Tell me what your definition of "man" and "woman" is, I'll tell you which I am. Not the other way around.
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PrincessCrystal

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 01:25:53 PMWhat do you think? Should someone be allowed SRS who is not planning to present as a female?
Here's my issue: presenting as female is hard, and getting people to accept my transition without judgement is going to be impossible.  Why, if I don't care how I'm presenting 90% of the time, should I have to put myself in the situation where I'll be ridiculed and persecuted, and probably lose my career, just because I want to be more comfortable with my body when I go to bed, take a shower, or am intimate with one of my partners?  SRS isn't about passing.  It's about what happens when the clothes come off.

Granted, I'm not the person you're describing, as I do plan on presenting as female outside of the workplace, but I actually prefer the way that my jobs work from a male perspective, and I'm not even sure I'd like to work at them if I were a woman.
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SadieBlake

TL;DR - I'm approved, y'all's views are nice and still largely beside the point

Should is always such a fun question. Much as I would love to pass as female and I certainly could, I'm mostly presenting somewhere in the non-binary and content with my choice, more on that below

Being "allowed" gender confirmation surgery suggests it's a privilege that I have to earn the naughty bits I might have otherwise been born with. I'd rather put it as I'm approved - by the only people who matter, 2 pshrinks and two different surgeons who have accepted me for GCS, a 3rd is waiting for my consult to be approved.

I'm also accepted by my gf of 18 years who's never been a fan of transition, my daughters and by the people who are my friends and co-workers. I'm glad the gf has finally come around, it's been dysphoria inducing that she's always accepted me as a cross dressed chick at home and not accepted me as a woman, objected to medical transition.

When I brought up the need for a surgery letter with my psychiatrist she was concerned primarily on technical grounds - my insurance company policy document implies that RLE includes passing for 12 months in all contexts. I was completely down with an RLE - I feel for me it's both feasible for me and a good process to ensure I'm emotionally prepared for what would follow - I'm also clear that WPATH 7 allows for non-binary presentation.

So my therapist wanted a consultation with someone more experienced in gender identity, I had the referrals for that the next day and had selected someone I liked a couple days after that. She said right off the bat "yes, even the WPATH 7 language is outdated, let alone the insurance language"

If course we had to run through a couple of months of getting 2 pshrinks' schedules to align and another couple of months for #2 to evaluate.

As of Friday I have her draft letter, like what she wrote etc, here's the she sums up my presentation.

"qualifies for a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria. She presents as organized and capable, and as having undergone a long process of self-examination and self-expression regarding gender identity. She presents visually primarily as male, with a beard and a receding hairline, but also with feminine accents. She has long experienced doubts about being able to pass as female, and describes herself as making do as non-binary in gender presentation, but nonetheless wanting to more fully occupy her female identity, to be treated socially as a Woman, and to have her body as congruent as possible with her gender identity." 

That is all that needs to be said about it. I actually identify as binary female, I've tried going off hormones to see if I could be comfortable cycling between feminine and masculine at the endocrinole layer and that didn't work at all.

To the question posed and many views posted since, I will be presenting somewhere in between male and female

Electrolysis: I don't have the resources, or at least wouldn't choose to spend tens of thousands of $. Pretty clearly my body hair is also not being fully eradicated by HRT so I'm resigned to being an hirsute chick

FFS would be covered but the time I'm going to have to take off work as a self employed person for GCS is bad enough

I'm half bald, that's not changing and wearing a wig in my professional work isn't physically possible

I don't care to present one way at work and another elsewhere, inconsistency in presentation has been an element of my dysphoria - dressing at home only actually makes me feel worse.


One thing I've found troubling in this thread is a repetition of the idea that anyone's opinion outside of mine and my health care providers even matters. These have come along with fairly strong misrepresentations of the WPATH SOC which indicates that flexibility is required.

Certainly access to appropriate care is an important issue and societal views of gender nonconformity ultimately do have an affect on laws enabling or restricting access. As such I find the degree of misunderstanding right here on Susan's.org disappointing.

Personally I'm lucky to live and work in an environment that's both accepting and affords me full insurance coverage for all I need and a lot of things I will choose not to access.

I know that makes me the exception, I try to remember that when difficulties arise.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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Xirafel

I find it slightly amusing how easy it is to undergo castration while SRS is a huge drama.
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SadieBlake

Xirafel, the criteria are the same as far as diagnosis. The only difference in WPATHis that the year RLE isn't required for an orchiectomy. The year of HRT is the same, also subject to medical necessity.
🌈👭 lesbian, troublemaker ;-) 🌈🏳️‍🌈
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