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Spiritual 'Otherness'?

Started by Aazhie, April 07, 2015, 04:57:23 PM

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Aazhie

Hey, just wondering if anyone else has a spiritual aspect to being non-binary, no matter what you identify as,or not.  I was reading some articles about Nordic and Native American concepts of their non binary shamans and it was really fascinating.  It was something I'd heard a little about, but the idea of someone being a non traditional gender role being respected, whether that came with other restrictions or fear, was really cool to me.  Just curious about your own research or personal experiences.

Occasionally I do wish to have been born a 'normal' guy with mind and body matching up but overall I have become pretty happy being different from the average cis person.  I feel able to relate to a wide variety of people, both 'vanilla' and wild outliers and I have to assume being a transman can account for at least some of this.  Before I admitted to being transgender I always felt apart and yet a part of the queer community, with an exceptional affiliation for gay men but it never made sense. I feel like I now understand even more the concept of 'doing God's work,' in the sense of having a place you fit in and can help others and have something of a community. I'm not really religious but I guess I am spiritual.  It also seems to feel better to think of the suffering I put myself through as at least partly necessary to become who I am now. 

I guess if I have a question here it is, do you feel like your journey has been something that has influenced you spiritually, or in a way that isn't completely explainable?
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
Johnny Cash
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suzifrommd

Not sure whether this is exactly what you're referring to, but I definitely feel I've gained a powerful wisdom about the human condition by understanding both sides of the gender divide.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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Lady Smith

QuoteI guess if I have a question here it is, do you feel like your journey has been something that has influenced you spiritually, or in a way that isn't completely explainable?

Yes definitely.  Before I finally had to admit the truth I'd been hiding from all my life my female self appeared often to me in my dreams.  During the transition from sleep to awakening I would have the sense that my body was female, I could feel the weight of my breasts on my chest and I didn't have a penis.  My body felt 'different' on my bones too, but I can't really explain it any better than that. 
The concept of being two-spirited is something I completely believe in and is a major reason why I have no difficulty with being a Religious woman of faith because I know that this is how my God made me and God doesn't make mistakes.
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Aazhie

@suzifrommd  Yeah I'm not even sure what I mean either, ha ha ha! But the aspect of seeing things from both sides is an extremely fascinating subject to me...

@Lady Smith  Wow, that's very powerful imagery.  I had a friend comment she didn't like the "Born This Way" song Gaga made b/c it brought religion into it and seemed exclusionary of transgender people.  But to look at it from my view, I was born this way.  Jung talks about animus and anima- some people just become their spiritual half of 'otherness' by transitioning.  I can see it as a very symbolic and religious experience.
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
Johnny Cash
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Kendall

i'm not sure if i see spiritual aspects with new eyes or of i try to make my spirituality conform. im not native american nor nordic.
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Aazhie

Quote from: Kendall on April 09, 2015, 07:39:59 PM
i'm not sure if i see spiritual aspects with new eyes or of i try to make my spirituality conform. im not native american nor nordic.

That's understandable

I was only using native/nordic religions as slightly more specific examples, as my own traditional protestant upbringing does not really have elements that I can relate to. I have met folks who were raised or are from backgrounds/countries where non-binary genders are more respected and visible in the culture, though it all depends for everyone...
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
Johnny Cash
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Aearon

I'm a non-binary Anglo-Saxon and Nordic Heathen, and a lot of my gender stuff intertwines with my religious stuff. One of my patron deities (gods I work with more often than others) is Loki and he's very genderfluid. The Norse had a concept of "ergi", often translated as "unmanliness", but I have my issues with archaeologists. For me it has connotations more of a gender outside of the male and female binary - so I often identify my gender as ergi.

Seiðr magic was commonly done by women or by ergi people - deities associated with seiðr include Freya, Loki and (surprisingly enough) Odin. From some older writings (and I'll have to find the articles about them again because they were incredibly interesting) seiðr workers (a better term than "shaman", since it's a) not quite accurate and b) rather appropriative) weren't exactly embraced with open arms, but they were considered very powerful.

Many Aboriginal groups had gender constructions completely unlike the current Western binary, and through colonization, many were lost, or forced to be hidden. Many Aboriginal people are now reclaiming these identities, under the blanket term of two-spirit.
-Aearon
(xie/xem/xyr pronouns please!)
☿ non-binary and proud! ❤ & ✿ to all my siblings! ^u^
Trans and Non-binary shrine: please feel free to leave a candle for fallen and struggling siblings.
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Aazhie

Quote from: Aearon on April 18, 2015, 02:39:47 PM
I'm a non-binary Anglo-Saxon and Nordic Heathen, and a lot of my gender stuff intertwines with my religious stuff. One of my patron deities (gods I work with more often than others) is Loki and he's very genderfluid. The Norse had a concept of "ergi", often translated as "unmanliness", but I have my issues with archaeologists. For me it has connotations more of a gender outside of the male and female binary - so I often identify my gender as ergi.

Seiðr magic was commonly done by women or by ergi people - deities associated with seiðr include Freya, Loki and (surprisingly enough) Odin. From some older writings (and I'll have to find the articles about them again because they were incredibly interesting) seiðr workers (a better term than "shaman", since it's a) not quite accurate and b) rather appropriative) weren't exactly embraced with open arms, but they were considered very powerful.

Many Aboriginal groups had gender constructions completely unlike the current Western binary, and through colonization, many were lost, or forced to be hidden. Many Aboriginal people are now reclaiming these identities, under the blanket term of two-spirit.

I was reading an article discussing some of the Norse/old germanic religions and their nobinary gendered shamans recently.  My ancestry on my dad's side is Prussian, our last name is a mangling of the town of Vlothow and we may still have some relatives there.  Since I was fairly young I knew about the two-spirits concept but never in depth, almost exclusively as a native American idea, and I had no idea how many Asian/Pac Islander and European cultures used to have ideas for non binary people, often exclusive or mystical that involved a lot of respect.  It makes me happy to know that there are even positions of power given to someone who identifies as non binary in one way or another :)

I find it interesting the way the Nordic magic tends to isolate the magic users in certain regards.  You obtain knowledge that not everyone can understand or empathize with and in a small tribe it would be unlikely to have more than one or two transgender people in a small community.  I guess I can see a lot of the 'not welcomed with open arms' aspect in the way I prefer to be alone.  It's not that I can't conncet with other people, I'm just introverted enough that I don't need company all the time to be happy.  But looking back it sometimes felt like I needed to be alone to think about things and other people could sometimes be a distraction to the ideas I had to muse over. 

I'm also pretty bummed out that the Thor movies never go into Loki's nonbinary nature... and Odin is portrayed as exceedingly boring, when the two of them, in my mind, are some of the more enigmatic and fascinating dieties I've had the chance to learn about from Norse mythology! Not that they did much justice for Thor's personality either, but most moviemakers seem to think audiences can't handle complex characters... too bad!

Can you possibly elaborate on how to pronounce Seidr?  Also i have no clue how to make the d shape symbol!!
You build on failure. You use it as a stepping stone. Close the door on the past. You don't try to forget the mistakes, but you don't dwell on it. You don't let it have any of your energy, or any of your time, or any of your space.
Johnny Cash
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saint

Yeah I see my gender as being part of my spiritual path.  In the sense that some people identify with the divine male or divine female; I identify with the divine androgyne.  And as I connect more strongly with my true gender and accept it more fully I see my spirituality blossom further too.
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Majj Wynn

Spirituality definitely can affect someone's view of gender!
Especially, if you believe that we're spirit first, then that can either contribute to your personal gender identification, or confuse it even more, because spirit may not be gender oriented.

In Life Between Lives, the author (hypnotizing people and regressing them to 'inbetween' human lives) came to see that there was no gender at the spiritual level, but that everyone portrayed themselves differently based on the lives they'd had. If you had a very significant life as a woman, it might be what you'd project as yourself in the spiritual world, though sometimes it was how the other spirit interpreted them, like if they had a life with them and their most significant relationship was them as male, then you'd see more the masculine in them because of that.
The move lives someone's had, the more defined they become, so it could just be that our transgenderism has more to do with our spirit's evolution than something physically in our mind that determines our gender.

Well, just something to consider :)

For me, I'm not sure, though I am growing my spirituality, and gender does get affected by it. I know that I'm not bound by gender, and may not even be bound to being human. But right now I'm living a human life, and I'm trying to find out who I am at heart, and it's that last part that counts most for me :D
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foosnark

Yes, this is a big deal for me and always has been.  I am a former Kemetic Orthodox priest, and currently generally pagan; I follow some "shamanic" practices (not to get too much into a discussion of the use and misues of the term) and occasionally explore Faerie work.

"Two-spirit" describes me best of all the terminology -- I have no claim to Native American cultural heritage but it is still a near perfect match.  I'd encountered the "ergi" concept before and that also fits.  (My spouse is a Lokean and I've learned a bit about Him and Odin through her.)  I've also read about a Sufi group where the holy men consider themselves female in the presence of God.

As do I.  I'm really only on the feminine side in a religious or magical context or in certain kinds of dreams.  In daily life I have a somewhat weak sense of gender, not identifying much with manhood or womanhood, but sort of a dark gray purple in terms of the enby pride flag. ;D  I present as male, am equally okay with "he" or "they", don't have much of a comfort zone with interdressing (*), and I don't have a physical sense of dysphoria.

I dreamed once of a young pair of twins -- one male, one female -- living on the edge of civilization, guided by a particular spirit object; as the dream progressed I found that I was both twins. 

In another set of dreams there was a powerful god nearby whose brilliance forced me to look away (something I've experienced in ritual as well) and I had the sudden distinct feeling that I was female because He was so close by.

In a series of other dreams I've met a mysterious smiling woman, and gotten the sense over time that she was actually me.

While thinking about this thread this morning, I found myself with the urge to buy or make a long skirt for dancing (a colorful circle skirt and/or something with a lot of flying ribbons) and use that in my magical practice.  (I did used to wear a galabaya in Kemetic Orthodox practice, though in its culture it isn't a gendered garment.)  Like I said, normally I'm not comfortable with wearing womens' clothing; but I feel like in the context of worship and magic it would suit me well.  At least according to some internet sources, some cultures' shamans used that sort of clothing to represent flying.  I've always had an affinity with the wind more so than other elements so maybe that's where this is coming from.


(*) -- wearing or shopping for womens' clothing generally makes me feel ridiculous and self-conscious.  While I have some drive to express my gender identity outwardly, I don't want to be read as being in drag or as trying to pass for female.  Because it's a difficult situation and I feel so weird about it I generally keep my signs very subtle or hidden -- colorful over-the-knee-socks with my jeans, jewelry under my shirt, maybe painted toenails that nobody ever sees.  It's enough to appease myself without feeling awkward.

(I did wear a women's button-down shirt to my job interview though because it was the classiest one I had.  It was pretty subtle and I don't think anyone noticed which side it buttoned on.  I got the job and nobody said anything at any rate.)
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Gothic Dandy

Yes, my gender identity is tied to my spiritual beliefs, and my patron deity seems to be bigender. I don't have time to go into it tonight, but I would like to follow this thread :D
Just a little faerie punk floating through this strange world of humans.
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chance

In my spirituality, which has been influenced by Wicca and Peruvian shamanic traditions, I experience most things as either gender. It has helped in enormous ways to understand some things. My spirituality has helped me accept my two spiritness. Of course it's a journey with a lot to learn (if we are lucky we are learning always). Hearing the beliefs and acceptance of two spirit gives me strength and faith to continue my path to my authentic self.

I have no friends that are two spirit although my friends are completely accepting of it. I do feel lonely sometimes but then I remember that two spirit helps me to relate to everybody and I feel very glad to be two spirit. I'm not First People although I relate to their term. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Live like someone left the gate open"
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Allison Wunderland

Quote from: Lady Smith on April 07, 2015, 08:59:41 PM
Yes definitely.  Before I finally had to admit the truth I'd been hiding from all my life my female self appeared often to me in my dreams.  During the transition from sleep to awakening I would have the sense that my body was female, [major snip here - ]

Not sure where you started, how you were born . . . But I just gotta say . . .

BEST Personal Photo Avatar ever !!!

Gender roles be damned !!! We are who we are!

"Let us appropriate & subvert the semiotic hegemony of the hetero-normative dyad."

"My performativity has changed since reading Dr. Judith Butler, Ph.D., Berkeley."
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Lady Smith

Quote from: Allison Wunderland on July 31, 2015, 04:29:37 PM
Not sure where you started, how you were born . . . But I just gotta say . . .

BEST Personal Photo Avatar ever !!!

Gender roles be damned !!! We are who we are!

Thank you :D  I trained as an automotive engineer and I come from a long line of metal workers and metal trades people reaching back to the very first days of the steam locomotive.  So yes beating about red hot metal with hammers is in my blood and I couldn't care less how unladylike that might be.
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Northern Jane

Quote from: Aazhie on April 07, 2015, 04:57:23 PM..... do you feel like your journey has been something that has influenced you spiritually.....

Very much so!!!

Growing up where and when I did (southern Ontario in the 1950s) and so obviously mis-gendered from earliest childhood, I took a  LOT of flack from 'the dominant culture' and the prevailing religions to behave appropriately, to respect my parents by being the way they  wanted to be, and was frequently told "God doesn't make mistakes" and that if  I was supposed to be a girl, 'god' would have made me a girl. I was told that 'god' created everyone in his image and likeness and if I said "Then god made me this way" I was told I was WRONG!

With the severe abuse at home, I ran away quite often from about age 5 onward, often living in the woods where I could not be found. On one such escape around age 10, I was hiding on an Indian Reserve and discovered that the Native people would not betray me but help me avoid the white authorities so that became my favourite  place to run to (although it was a hard hour's ride by bicycle!)

I connected (eventually) with a Native Elder, an older woman, who was curious about the reason for my hiding out on the Reserve. When I told her my story, her reaction was entirely different than anything I had experienced before. She told me the Native people knew of such things and that I was "blessed" - what a difference from the attitude in the 'dominant culture' in the 1960s!!! She adopted me (by Traditional Ways) and became my Grandmother. I spent a lot of time with her and learned about the Traditional Ways and though I ventured down many spiritual paths in my life I always returned to the Native Way.

If I had not found refuge and acceptance among the Native People, I probably would have been broken by 'the dominant culture' and not survived - a child needs an ally, a support SOMEWHERE, someone to tell them is is okay to be who you are.
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Allison Wunderland

Quote from: Lady Smith on July 31, 2015, 10:42:08 PM
Thank you :D  I trained as an automotive engineer and I come from a long line of metal workers and metal trades people reaching back to the very first days of the steam locomotive.  So yes beating about red hot metal with hammers is in my blood and I couldn't care less how unladylike that might be.

VERY VERY INTEGRATED "STRONG WOMAN" . . . I know my share of strong women, ride Harley, beat red hot ingot, swing a chainsaw, run a tractor . . .

We need to un-segregate gender roles.
"Let us appropriate & subvert the semiotic hegemony of the hetero-normative dyad."

"My performativity has changed since reading Dr. Judith Butler, Ph.D., Berkeley."
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JB_Girl

What an interesting conversation!  I believe that we are all spiritual beings.  The recognition of difference that being trans entails was for me a starting point to revisit the whole notion of spiritual contentedness.  The zen master Chu Hsi extolled the value of traveling on foot.  To me living an authentic life is a pilgrimage on foot from persona to person.  The journey is every bit as much inward looking as outwardly appearing. To travel on foot is to meet all kinds of people.  To experience hardship as well as bliss and emerge from the journey changed.

The actions, shaping steel, exploring self, learning new skills are milestones on the journey but not the whole journey.  They are do not require classification as masculine or feminine, but both and neither.  The search for me is expressed with femininity, but the journey will never cease and the pilgrimage will always transform the pilgrim.  I do not need to conform to the definitions of others, only to the descriptions of myself that I write.

Many cultures revere the two spirit people.  Mine did not.  But I can walk with those who do and learn from those who have passed before, as I learn from the people who participate here.

Namaste,
Ming
I began this journey when I began to think, but it took what it took for me to truly understand the what and the why of authenticity.  I'm grateful to have found a path that works and to live as I have always dreamed.

The dates are unimportant and are quite stale now.  The journey to truth is fresh and never ends.
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