Gender change as a body mod

[RedJack]

Ok, I'm sure this'll bother some people, but I felt coming here was the most intelligent thing as it'd be the best place to get informed answers that I can share with others.

Long and short (pun not intended), while I am a happy male, I'm not attached to my penis. I've thought about two mods, streamlining (moving the testes internal, removing one if necessary, dunno ifn there's room) or perhaps on the more extreme side, replacing it with a vagina. That last one was inspired by a few bits of art here and there of characters like that, and one photo I have of someone that claims to have been born straddling genders, and lately by a video of Buck Angel. Right now its a casual thought, I've not the knowledge necessary to make an informed decision, so I've come here for that and opinions. Obviously this is possible, its merely a matter of a partial gender transformation (correction?), but the fine details are important, then there's cost, and safety. Also whether its even possible to find someone to do work like this, unlike many body mods, self surgery or amateur surgery isn't a wise idea. Largest question is what to do with the testes, remove them, or since I'm not looking to change genders, should they be internalized? Testosterone production would continue ifn I understand it right, which would take care of potential hormone issues, but will it bring any risks.

Thank you for your answers and help in this issue, what I learn here I'll save it, and post it as a follow up to my comments about my interest here, and what direction I choose to move in.

[Hypatia]

You don't have gender identity disorder, you don't qualify for genital reassignment surgery. No surgeon will agree to what you ask. The procedure to qualify for the surgery is lengthy, arduous, and pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't have a severe level of GID. May I suggest you re-examine your priorities.

[tinkerbell]

You don't have gender identity disorder, you don't qualify for genital reassignment surgery. No surgeon will agree to what you ask. The procedure to qualify for the surgery is lengthy, arduous, and pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't have a severe level of GID. May I suggest you re-examine your priorities.

Ditto.  However (there is always a "however", isn't there?), there's something called body nullification:

Nullification involves the voluntary removal of body parts. Body parts that are removed by those practicing body nullification are for example Fingers, Penis (penectomy), Testicles (castration), Clitoris, Labia or Nipples. Sometimes people who desire a nullification may be diagnosed with body integrity identity disorder or apotemnophilia.

From this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_nullification


I am not sure if there's any doctor in the US who will perform such surgical procedures but they do exist.

tink

[RedJack]

Oh I'm quite aware that I have no identity issues, in fact at this point its more of a curiosity thing than anything else, and I've a insane thirst for knowledge. Besides, anything's possible for those willing to spend the money and take the risks, not me though.

I'm aware of nullification, and people have it done, that kinda proves that its possible for find a doctor for... shall we say improper modifications? It does sorta defeat the purpose, its not that I want no gender identity, but rather that I'm not locked to one rather than the other, or becoming a hybrid, so what harm is there in exploring the possibilities even if they're not realistic? At the very least I can walk away more knowledgeable than when I started, and perhaps with more understanding of those for whom this is not a choice, but a necessity.

[seldom]

NO NO NO.

This is about GENDER IDENTITY.  While I do not like the term gender identity disorder, I do agree if your not transsexual do not even CONSIDER this. 

Especially when you are discussing about keeping your testicals (eww).

SRS is not NOT a body mod.  You will not find a TS, even the anti-gatekeeper ones who would support this.  It is a way to  bring intersex and transsexual people a way to have a body reflective of their brain.  If you identify as male, this is NOT for you. 

This is an significant surgery. 

[RedJack]

MMm, I may be on the cutting edge and the first one, but I suspect that this question will arise as time goes on. Sex is changing, porn is no longer vanilla, the internet has certainly opened people's eyes to what's out there, what the other choices are. Right now radical body mods are thins like penile splitting, tongue splitting, or nullification. All of these are done for fun, sexual pleasure, or for other rather casual reasons. Breast enhancement is no longer considered odd, yet go back what, 30 years ago? It would've been a radical mod now. I think ideas such as mine will become more mainstream with two simple and connected changes, one is the acceptance of one to choose their gender, and with that acceptance will become a greater availability of the surgery. Right, wrong or indifferent, one of two ages is coming, a dark age thanks to the religious right or an age of greater enlightenment (not sure I'd go that far), and if its the latter, I suspect that like many things, it'll become hip to make changes like this, starting like tattoos did with a small niche community and growing. While this is perhaps not quite the right place for this question, its likely the only place to turn in the quest to sate my curiosity about the viability of it.

[Jaycie]

You will not find a TS, even the anti-gatekeeper ones who would support this. 

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there.  ^_^   Speaking for every TS-identified person at once with such a blanket statement.

Whether one agrees with such a thing or not, it's rarely within your rights to tell someone that what they want is 'wrong',  only maybe that you wouldn't choose such a path yourself. 

[no_id]

There's really nothing horrifyingly innovative about genital body modification. It's been around for quite a while and has attracted an aesthically pleased crowd. Here's an Article (NSFW) on one individual who chose to perform genital modification on himself.

I always suggest looking into a subject before yip-yapping. Each individual has their own views and motivations, but replying to objectivity with such subjectivity really doesn't convince of a true examination of the subject.

[RedJack]

I always suggest looking into a subject before yip-yapping. Each individual has their own views and motivations, but replying to objectivity with such subjectivity really doesn't convince of a true examination of the subject.

Guilty as charged, although I'm trying to be better. Actually I'm kind of odd, while I am subjective, I do try to look at, listen too, and question all points of views.

[no_id]

I always suggest looking into a subject before yip-yapping. Each individual has their own views and motivations, but replying to objectivity with such subjectivity really doesn't convince of a true examination of the subject.

Guilty as charged, although I'm trying to be better. Actually I'm kind of odd, while I am subjective, I do try to look at, listen too, and question all points of views.

The above wasn't directed at you. However, I'm always pro information for all parties. 

[ketti]

I don't see anything wrong with seeking GRS for mere aestethical purposes. As long as you are well informed about the changes and still want it, then it is your decision.

[Wing Walker]

There are no real reversal procedures for body modifications, be they as innocent as a tattoo or piercing.  All changes leave their mark.  The piercings in the eyebrow leave little dots after they close.  Tattoo removal is painful and not without its scar tissue.

If one does not have Gender Identity Disorder then it is best to not dabble in the Gender Reassignment Surgery.

About 10 years ago I was surfing and I found Body Modification Ezine.  One of the features was gender nullification.  I saw pictures of a male person with nipples covered by a patch of skin, penis and testes nowhere in sight, and a cavity between the legs, an open space, complete with stitches using a black stitch material.

The surgery was not in an operating room.  It appeared to be in a warehouse or other large area with no equipment that I could see.  For all I know the surgeon was using a flashlight to see.  I am not a surgeon but what I saw did not appear to have been done by a board-certified physician/surgeon and there was no surgeon's assistant present in the pics.

I did not return to the Ezine after that.

Wing Walker

[cindybc]

My goodness, why do some people do such things to themselves? Is inflicting pain to oneself become a turn on sexually?

Cindy

[taru]

SRS is not NOT a body mod.  You will not find a TS, even the anti-gatekeeper ones who would support this.  It is a way to  bring intersex and transsexual people a way to have a body reflective of their brain.  If you identify as male, this is NOT for you. 

I think it is his body, and if he is sane, I don't have any problem with it.

I don't understand why and it seems like a big decision that could lead to large amounts of regret. But I don't think other people should be limited to things I consider sensible and good [as long as they don't hurt others].

[Jaycie]

About 10 years ago I was surfing and I found Body Modification Ezine.  One of the features was gender nullification.  I saw pictures of a male person with nipples covered by a patch of skin, penis and testes nowhere in sight, and a cavity between the legs, an open space, complete with stitches using a black stitch material.

The surgery was not in an operating room.  It appeared to be in a warehouse or other large area with no equipment that I could see.  For all I know the surgeon was using a flashlight to see.  I am not a surgeon but what I saw did not appear to have been done by a board-certified physician/surgeon and there was no surgeon's assistant present in the pics.

I did not return to the Ezine after that.

Wing Walker

Unfortunately none of this is really relevant to the topic at hand. Rather than be some example against the things being discussed are 'bad', it says more that people will still do what they want and that having adequate resources available would be safer for all involved.

Posted on: October 08, 2007, 01:23:41 AM

My goodness, why do some people do such things to themselves? Is inflicting pain to oneself become a turn on sexually?

Cindy

*giggle* I think that pain as a 'turn on' has existed for longer than anyone on this board has been alive.  ^_^

mas·och·ism      /ˈmæsəˌkɪzəm, ˈmæz-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mas-uh-kiz-uhm, maz-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   Psychiatry. the condition in which sexual gratification depends on suffering, physical pain, and humiliation.
2.   gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degradation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself, either as a result of one's own actions or the actions of others, esp. the tendency to seek this form of gratification.
3.   the act of turning one's destructive tendencies inward or upon oneself.
4.   the tendency to find pleasure in self-denial, submissiveness, etc.
[Origin: 1890–95; named after L. von Sacher-Masoch, who described it; see -ism]


from - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/masochism


But that isn't even relevant to this topic either. Unless somehow any and all surgical modification to ones genitals 'must' be for sexual purposes.  Though,  that just might be a little hypocritical, no?

[Alison]

My goodness, why do some people do such things to themselves? Is inflicting pain to oneself become a turn on sexually?

Cindy

People modify their bodies in all sorts of ways that I would not be interested in.  But my body is my choice, just as your body is your choice.   I wouldn't question it if you wanted to get your ears pierced or get a giant tattoo on your back of eagle feathers, all I can say is "Not my cup of tea."

While there definitely some people who do get sexually aroused by pain, it's possible people would modify their bodies for this desire.  Nonetheless, people modify their bodies because <b>they want to</b>.  They accept the pain as a necessary evil to get to what they want.

You might desire to wear earrings, maybe you already do.  Acquiring the holes in your earlobes to hold the earrings up was to some extent painful.  But I'll take the wager that you didn't(or wouldn't) do it for any sexual reason, probably simply because you want to.

There are all kinds of irreversible things one can do to their bodies. This guy http://www.thelizardman.com/  for example.  There is no way at all he can ever go back to "looking normal".  The majority of his skin is tattooed green with a scale pattern, he has implants in his eyebrows, his tongue is split.  He didn't have to go through a psych eval. to make his modifications.   Just something to think about.

[Butterfly]

My body is my choice.  That's the reason I'm having my hands and feet amputated next week.  >

[Alison]

Where do you believe the line should be drawn? 

Who decides that <i> This </i> is ok to do to your body but <i> That </i> is not?

Who is the decider and who makes the decisions?   >

[shanetastic]

Where do you believe the line should be drawn? 

Who decides that <i> This </i> is ok to do to your body but <i> That </i> is not?

Who is the decider and who makes the decisions?   >

I think ultimately it should be left up to the individual.  Not to sound dumb or anything, but people have to live with their life choices, and no one is going to stop them from doing what they want either way.  If they have the money and want to do it the legal and safe way, then by all means go ahead I guess.  It's better than them dying doing it by themselves and bleeding to death or something.  You need to draw the line of safety somewhere as well.

[seldom]

If SRS became a body modification it would devalue the medical necessity arguement of the surgery for intersex and transsexual individuals.  I am sorry, but I am thinking beyond the whole your body your choice idea to the actual medical justifications.  SRS is begining to be covered by insurance companies because the medical necessity is begining to be understood.

I am sorry this should not be used for body modification purposes.  This is a medically necessary surgery for some of us, and devaluing it to a body modification is something I cannot accept.

There needs to be standards exactly to prevent this, and we need to keep this a TS and IS ONLY surgery.  Its medically necessary for us, and letting people do it for body modification would devalue it and cause untold damage.