Relationships and Gender Identity Bill passed in South Australia

[Sass]

I was part of (and due to my illness the least active) of a group that tried to communicate with the Politicians as the Bills went forward. Of course a massive amount of work had been done by many people beforehand.

On the debate itself it was obvious that several politicians had not read the Bills, some had the wrong Bill before them. They thought it had other implications tied to their own personal belief and agenda; in short several highly paid people had not a clue what they were doing.

In South Australia each Political party has factions that control who will become members; in this particular case it became obvious that it was a factional fight among the (here) ruling Labour Party. The Premier wanted the Bill to pass, his internal enemies did not, it passed but I doubt any of them had a moments concern for transgender people. It was internal warfare and we were the shrapnel. But it was a win and I'll take it.

One lesson I have learned in Politics is you take the fight to how you can win; there is no nobility in Politics - it is a process and you use the process to achieve your aims.

And that's why SA got the law and the rest of the States haven't.
People were prepared to work hard for it.

[Claire_Sydney]

I'm not sure that is entirely fair Sass. A lot of people fought very hard in NSW and Victoria to try and get this through.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ms Grace]

I also think the political orientation of our state governments would play some part, nothing overly LGBT friendly is going to get through this current mob in NSW.

[Sass]

Yes, maybe the make up of the parliament at the time is also very important.

After all there are no votes in transgender people so we don't have any power.

I'm a bit out of the loop so not sure what other people are doing in relation to this issue.

I think the NSW Gender Centre's magazine "Polare" mentioned they were doing something in this direction, but the Gender Centre tends to be a bit secretive, they don't tend to let everyone else know what they are up to.

I was doing a bit in this direction but had to stop for the while as I'm taking a company to court and representing myself, so have to focus on that.

I think it's good that society see's Females of Transgender or Intersex History [Female's], (I don't usually use the term "Trans" as we are Women, not "Trans", and I think we should demand our place as women, and not be isolated as different, as objects or things, ie a "Trans" instead of a human being who is female by gender).
But anyway I think it's good that society see's us as we really are, just normal human beings doing normal things; for too long the community has been dogged by the image and the stereotype of the ">-bleeped-<", and that really drags us down.

But anyway I did a bit of work in this direction but more in relation to getting the NSW police to change a Female's gender on their computer records by applying criteria similar to that set out in the Australian Govt. Guidelines on Sex and Gender.

I don't know if this will be dependant on the NSW Govt. passing a law same as that in SA, or they can do it without that.

Well I think the Govt. has to pass such a law first, as I just came across this email from Jacqueline Braw, the Senior Programs Officer, Sexuality and Gender Diversity, NSW police:

Our understanding is that the NSW Government must first adopt the Australian Government Guidelines. We certainly support the adoption of the guidelines and would make such a recommendation but the decision regarding whether or not the guidelines will be accepted rest with higher echelons of government.

It may assist progress if you made representations to the Deputy Premier and Police Minister, Troy Grant either personally or via your local member.

Then I got this reply from the Deputy Premier and Police Minister:

Dear Ms ......

Thank you for your letter to the Deputy Premier and Minister for Justice and the Police,
the Hon Troy Grant MP, concerning the NSW Police Forces' compliance with the
Australian Guidelines on the Recognition of Sex and Gender. The Deputy Premier
has asked me to respond on his behalf.

I understand that an officer from the NSW Police Force responded to you in October
2015 regarding this issue, advising the NSW Police Force has identified compliance
with the Australian Government Guidelines on the Recognition of Sex and Gender as
a priority for 2016.

In order to progress this matter a working party will be established to identify all
Police legislation , regulatory and policy requirements relating to the collection of sex
and/or gender information and amend these, as required, to ensure compliance with
the guidelines.

Please contact the NSW Police Force Customer Assistance Unit on 1800 622 571 if
you have any further questions on this matter.

I trust this information is of assistance.

Yours sincerely

Acting Director
Ministerial Coordination and Parliamentary Services.

Then I got another email from the NSW police:
Email from Jaqueline Braw, Senior Programs Officer, Sexuality and Gender Diversity, NSW Police.


Sorry for the delay in responding - I did finally receive the scanned letter you sent - thank you.
I've tried to make enquiries as to progress with our agency's compliance with the Australian guidelines. Because there are so many areas within NSW Police that would be impacted on and therefore would need to be involved, it has been fairly tricky identifying the best place to lead this process.
I've formulated a bit of a plan including the establishment of a Working Party involving all areas of NSW Police that need to be involved and formally requesting that this process begin as soon as possible.
This formal request goes all the way up the levels within the NSW Police and then to the Minister so the Minister can 'direct' that the process begins and who should be involved etc.
Once I get a formal reply, I can monitor progress but it is likely that it would be another area (eg Corporate Services) within NSW Police that leads the process as my area is limited to developing policy and programs for police in the field working with LGBTI people.
But I will keep in touch to keep you updated on progress.
Regards
Jackie

So I don't know if they are going to require the Govt to pass a law like in SA before Female's can change their gender on NSW police records.

Because it is important, as if a female gets arrested by the police then even though she is female because the police computers list her as male she might get locked up with male persons and raped.

But anyway I haven't had time to do any more on this, but if anyone else is interested in this area they can take what I have done so far and build on it.

Another issue is if you change your name with the Roads and Maritime, in relation to your drivers lic, they still list your male name as your primary name, and your female name as an "alias".

The police do this too I think.

So we were given a name traditionally associated with a person of the opposite gender when we were born, why does this false naming have to follow us around for the rest of our lives in Govt. databases? Why can't we just make a clean break with the past?

By the way I did some research into changing gender on Govt. documents and records, and have posted it previously on a site I don't go to anymore because they pissed me off.
Here's the link if anyone wants info on changing gender recorded on Govt. records and documents.

http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=44553

[Ms Grace]

I think the NSW Gender Centre's magazine "Polare" mentioned they were doing something in this direction, but the Gender Centre tends to be a bit secretive, they don't tend to let everyone else know what they are up to.

As a community organisation funded by NSW Government money it is also very likely their funding contract restricts or forbids them from advocacy work (that's the way the Govt. rolls these days, they don't want pesky NGOs telling them how to do their "job"). Anything they might be involved in is likely to be very low on, or fully off, the radar.

[Claire_Sydney]

As someone who has amended all their identity documents, someone who has been active in lobbying for advancement of rights, I really don't understand what the issue is here.

"...the Gender Centre tends to be a bit secretive, they don't tend to let everyone else know what they are up to."

I support the current allocation of resources by the Gender Centre.  Their organisation has finite and quite limited funding.  Those resources are generally allocated to parts of the community with the most need - victims of violence, homeless individuals and transgender people in custody.  Given that a portion of their funding comes from government grants, it might not be entirely appropriate to have a vocal, highly critical voice of government policies.  There are more independent organisations for that kind of work.

"I don't usually use the term "Trans" as we are Women, not "Trans", and I think we should demand our place as women, and not be isolated as different..."

You should certainly use whatever labels are appropriate for you, but please don't speak for me.  I'll choose my own labels.  The way I see my own identity is this:  I am female.  I am accepted as female by all my family, friends, and work colleagues.  I am also trans.  Those two things are not mutually exclusive.  There are some differences between my body and my experiences as a transgender female and those of the cisgender females I mix with.  Those things are undeniable.  They are biology.  I have no business participating in discussions amongst cisgender women on issues of mentruation, female youth issues, pregnancy, etc.  My journey into womanhood has been different to theirs.  That doesn't make me any less of a woman.  It just makes me a different type of woman. One that enlivens and broadens the definition of womanhood.  I am comfortable being a transgender woman.

"Because it is important, as if a female gets arrested by the police then even though she is female because the police computers list her as male she might get locked up with male persons and raped."

There are relatively broad but well constructed policies to take this into account in the management of transgender individuals in custody.  Good policies are lacking in certain states such as WA, where problems have occured recently.  Here in NSW, I think the situation is quite good.  NSW policies derive from both (a) Policy document OPM Sex 7.23 of the Department of Corrections, and (b) the NSW Code of Practice for Custody, Rights, Investigation, Management and Evidence.

Both policy documents take into account the gender identity in the management of the individual in custody.  Whilst it would be good to have these rights cemented into law, I think this is really good progress from where we were a few years ago.  You can review the policies here :

http://www.correctiveservices.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/custodial-op-proc-manual/OPM%20Sec%207.23%20Management%20of%20Transgender%20and%20Intersex%20inmates%20v2.0.pdf

and

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/108808/Code_of_Practice_for_Crime.pdf

I spoke with several senior police officials about the operation of this policy earlier this year.  The policy seems quite good to me, and the police clarified that with every trans individual that they have held in custody in the last 18 months, they have been housed separately, or according to their gender identity.

"Another issue is if you change your name with the Roads and Maritime, in relation to your drivers lic, they still list your male name as your primary name, and your female name as an "alias".

I haven't experienced this.  I have seen my driver's license and record both in print and on the computerised terminals at RMS and it does not contain any alias.  It contains my current name only.  Where have you seen this? Are you sure the RMS did not accidently add a 'preferred name' instead of changing your legal name on their database?

"The police do this too I think."
In my mind, there are good reasons why law enforcement agencies need to retain information about previous names.  Your previous name is part of your identity.  You lived by that name, and did things that you must continue to be responsible for, if it ever turns out that some of your prior actions were unlawful or criminal.  Having a continuous chain of identity is understandable to me.  I don't want transgender individuals (or anyone who changes their name for whatever reason) to evade accountability for their past actions in a former name.

"So we were given a name traditionally associated with a person of the opposite gender when we were born, why does this false naming have to follow us around for the rest of our lives in Govt. databases? Why can't we just make a clean break with the past?"
See above.  You should be accountable for what you did in a former name - whether you changed your name due to gender transition, marriage, safety, whatever. 

[Ms Grace]

I support the current allocation of resources by the Gender Centre.  Their organisation has finite and quite limited funding.  Those resources are generally allocated to parts of the community with the most need - victims of violence, homeless individuals and transgender people in custody.  Given that a portion of their funding comes from government grants, it might not be entirely appropriate to have a vocal, highly critical voice of government policies.  There are more independent organisations for that kind of work.

Totally agree, although - and this is only my opinion - I think Polare is a remarkably sub par publication that looks like it was put together using Pagemaker 1.0 in 1986. Even accounting for their funding situation there is no justifiable reason for this. I know the rejoinder to that kind of claim is "well, could you do any better?"...yes, yes I could. But it is what it is I guess. 

Other than that gripe, the Gender Centre is awesome.

[Sass]

"The police do this too I think."

In my mind, there are good reasons why law enforcement agencies need to retain information about previous names.  Your previous name is part of your identity.  You lived by that name, and did things that you must continue to be responsible for, if it ever turns out that some of your prior actions were unlawful or criminal.  Having a continuous chain of identity is understandable to me.  I don't want transgender individuals (or anyone who changes their name for whatever reason) to evade accountability for their past actions in a former name.

[/b]

It's not about evading responsibility or accountability for things that you allege I did (I did nothing), it's just not necessary to have an old name of the incorrect gender on their records.

If a person had a criminal record it would just be swapping the existing name, which is not used, for another which is a persons real name, it wouldn't be extinguishing any criminal record.

If a person had a criminal record and they checked your new name it would still come up.

What about that woman who got bashed because the cops looked her up on their computer and it had a record of a past name and gender, and they told the deadbeat she was living with that "you've been rooting a bloke", and the deadbeat went home and bashed her so badly she had to stay in hospital for two weeks.

That information should not have been on the police computer for the police to pass on to the guy who bashed her as a result.

"Another issue is if you change your name with the Roads and Maritime, in relation to your drivers lic, they still list your male name as your primary name, and your female name as an "alias".

I haven't experienced this.  I have seen my driver's license and record both in print and on the computerised terminals at RMS and it does not contain any alias.  It contains my current name only.  Where have you seen this? Are you sure the RMS did not accidently add a 'preferred name' instead of changing your legal name on their database?

[/b]

Someone posted on a site I linked in my previous post that this had happened to her.
They told her they had "real names" and "preferred names", and her records were under her previous (male) name and her new name was listed as a "preferred name".

"So we were given a name traditionally associated with a person of the opposite gender when we were born, why does this false naming have to follow us around for the rest of our lives in Govt. databases? Why can't we just make a clean break with the past?"

See above.  You should be accountable for what you did in a former name - whether you changed your name due to gender transition, marriage, safety, whatever. 

[/b]

You seem obsessed with what I allegedly might have done.
Again it's not a matter of trying to evade accountability, I have nothing to evade accountability for, it's just that I don't want a name that's traditionally a name given to the opposite sex to what I am, and which is not my real name, to follow me around.
It can give people the idea that my gender is not legitimate.

[kelly_aus]

It's not about evading responsibility or accountability for things that you allege I did (I did nothing), it's just not necessary to have an old name of the incorrect gender on their records.

If a person had a criminal record it would just be swapping the existing name, which is not used, for another which is a persons real name, it wouldn't be extinguishing any criminal record.

If a person had a criminal record and they checked your new name it would still come up.

You may not be trying to evade accountability, but there are others who will. And it's not as easy as simply changing Police records.. There are Court records that would also need to be changed. Including the old name also allows for any historical issues to be dealt with.

What about that woman who got bashed because the cops looked her up on their computer and it had a record of a past name and gender, and they told the deadbeat she was living with that "you've been rooting a bloke", and the deadbeat went home and bashed her so badly she had to stay in hospital for two weeks.

That information should not have been on the police computer for the police to pass on to the guy who bashed her as a result.

This is a breach of Police procedure and should be dealt with as such.

Someone posted on a site I linked in my previous post that this had happened to her.
They told her they had "real names" and "preferred names", and her records were under her previous (male) name and her new name was listed as a "preferred name".

That's an error on behalf of whoever input the info..

You seem obsessed with what I allegedly might have done.
Again it's not a matter of trying to evade accountability, I have nothing to evade accountability for, it's just that I don't want a name that's traditionally a name given to the opposite sex to what I am, and which is not my real name, to follow me around.
It can give people the idea that my gender is not legitimate.

You can't escape the past. History is what it is. To be honest, this post seems like a little "Woe is me." There are a multitude of reasons for your old name not to be completely expunged. I've also had exactly zero issues with my past intruding on my present and don't expect that to change in the future.

I'm stuck, for the foreseeable future, with an M on my Birth Certificate - which also shows the amendment to my name on the back. Not a huge issue, I rarely use it for anything and so, it's not an issue. I'm also more than confident enough to correct anyone who may get things wrong.

People who change their name for other reasons don't get to hide their previous name, why should it be any different for trans people?

[Cindy]

I didn't start this topic so that you could argue with each other.

Locked

Cindy
Forum Admin