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Moral, religious, arguments against transexualism

Started by HelenW, February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PM

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HelenW

During one of my darker moods this past week I did a search on the keywords, "moral, religious, arguments against transexualism" to see what was out there.  While I found a number of sites addressing homosexuality with transexualism as a side note ( ??? interesting, isn't it?) the subject of transexualism wasn't exclusively addressed.  So I began to list the things that popped into my head (in no particular order) so I could answer them in my own mind and perhaps in essay form.  These were what I came up with:  Transexualism is .  .   .

- all about Vanity
- Selfishness
- a Perversion
- Homosexuality
- a Fetish
- an Abomination
- Blasphemy
- Unnatural
- Abnormal
- Threatening
- Dishonest

I think I can answer all of these accusations but I'm not sure if I got them all.  Have any of you heard or thought of any that I've missed?  What are your answers to these "charges?"

Thnx fr the help!
helen
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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Kimberly

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angelsgirl

I think Kimberly hit the nail on the head!  If I were to defend my girlfriend to somebody that would say any one of those things without even trying to know what it really is about isn't likely to make an honest attempt to hear the other side of the argument.  They believe they're right and nothing anyone says will ever change their minds.  By saying "I'm sorry you don't understand", you're inviting the person to ask for more information and those that ask may be more accepting and those that don't ask are not going to be accepting and will probably just walk away. Either way, you win!
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HelenW

These are very good points!  If someone were to accost me in public to level one of these criticisms I would probably answer using Kimberly's exact words.

But I'd like to frame my question in a different light, more for my own internal discussion rather than a debate with an antagonistic opponent.  Angelsgirl wrote,

"If I were to defend my girlfriend to somebody that would say any one of those things without even trying to know what it really is about isn't likely to make an honest attempt to hear the other side of the argument.  They believe they're right and nothing anyone says will ever change their minds."

Ufortunately, there are way too many people like that in the world (I sometimes think I may be living with one of them) but not all people are like that.  What are the things that, if someone attributed those characteristics to transexuals in general, would any of us say if there was a willingness to see reason?  What is the "other side of the argument?"  Have any of you ever thought of or heard a denigration of transexuality that I missed listing?  I've read many things that would refute these attitudes but I've never heard or read anyone's personal beliefs regarding them.

thnx for your patience,
h
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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Sara

- all about Vanity
- Selfishness

(Got that right I am vain and I am selfish for wanting only what is right for me)

- a Perversion
- Homosexuality
- a Fetish
- an Abomination
- Blasphemy
- Unnatural
- Abnormal
- Threatening
- Dishonest

(This sounds like a religious take on the whole misunderstanding of life or a bunch of anal retentive w*nkers who have nothing better to do with their time than to label something they know nothing about)

Dont care much for any of this stuff.

Sara.
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Kimberly


Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- all about Vanity
What is wrong with vanity?


Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- Selfishness
Perhaps.

I am selfish, that is true. I demand the right to be myself.


Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- a Perversion
Of what?

Society? -- Society is broken.
Nature? -- I don't think so.
Heaven/God's will -- Not that I am aware of. How can that be anyway?
(please please say it's the devil's work! *evil cackle*)


Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- Homosexuality
Eh? What does my sexual preferance have to do with this?

Seriously, who I am is separate from who I like. ... besides, I'm bisexual.


Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- a Fetish
No, bondage is a fetish, perhaps you mean Transvestic fetishism? That is very different from Transsexualism.

Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- an Abomination
How so?

(Same general idea as the - a Perversion)


Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- Blasphemy
If you say so.

(this would be a fun conversation.)

Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- Unnatural
Not as near as I can tell.
or
As far as I can tell it's very very natural.

Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- Abnormal
Could be.
(It's true we are the rare of the species.)

Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- Threatening
To what? I'm sorry how so?

Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PMTransexualism is .  .   .
- Dishonest
To what? To whom?



As you can see most of what comes to mind for replies are questions... the exact answers depend greatly on with whom I am speaking and if I care for them or not.
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stephanie_craxford

Quote from: HelenW on February 18, 2006, 12:12:38 PM
During one of my darker moods this past week I did a search on the keywords, "moral, religious, arguments against transexualism" to see what was out there.  While I found a number of sites addressing homosexuality with transexualism as a side note ( ??? interesting, isn't it?) the subject of transexualism wasn't exclusively addressed.  So I began to list the things that popped into my head (in no particular order) so I could answer them in my own mind and perhaps in essay form.  These were what I came up with:  Transexualism is .  .   .

- all about Vanity
- Selfishness
- a Perversion
- Homosexuality
- a Fetish
- an Abomination
- Blasphemy
- Unnatural
- Abnormal
- Threatening
- Dishonest

I think I can answer all of these accusations but I'm not sure if I got them all.  Have any of you heard or thought of any that I've missed?  What are your answers to these "charges?"

Why on earth would you want to answer these charges in your own mind, they are simply not worth answering as to answer them would be to assume that the premis is correct.

The answer(s) to these charges is quite simple.  There is no need to answer them, as the questions would obviously come from a neanderthal, a religious zealot, or an idiot who would not be worth my time of day.  Yes it would nice to take the time to try to educate a person who would think a long these lines, but I have better things to do :)

Steph
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Alexandra

I answer such questions with: "you need to know these personal matters because?"
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jamesBrine

hello!
This is a very intersting topic and one in my mind that is worth disscuses and searching out answers. (please my intent is not to be argumentative but try and offer the other side as I struggle with some of these issue's in regard to my CD. The two ones that stick out to me are homosexuality and Abnormal.

Homosexuality=You mary your wife or husband as the other gender and then transsision to the other while being married. In the aspects of your life you want to be the other Gender the same as your SO. In life your marriage is now between two people of the same gender. If both partners in the marriage are one gender would that not make it a gay/lesbian marriage to people who saw you. This is the argument I have heard when it comes to transexual marriages when both parties are the same sex in appearances.

Abnormal=For a person to switch genders completly would go against what is considered normal in society. Probably over 90% of the world's population can't understand why people want to switch their genders. Because this behaviour is not "normal" it would make it abnormal scaring alot of people because people don't like what is strange. Def: Abnormal="deviating from the normal or average; especially : departing from the usual or accepted standards of social behavior." With this Def Transexual behaviour can be seen as Abnormal.

Agian I do not offer these ideas to be a jerk or say what you folks are doing is wrong but rather trying to offer there arguments and try and understand their point of view. I wrote with the outmost of love and respect. Please let me know if I have offended anyone.
James.
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stephanie_craxford

James no offense taken  :), however...

Four short points:

1. Transition does not make you a homosexual.  You cannot become Gay you are born Gay.  Yes if a MtF is still sexually attracted to females they could be lesbian or bi.  Remember gender and sexuality are two different things.

2. I believe that probably 90% of the worlds population have no idea what a transsexual is, let alone what normal is.

3.  We are not switching genders we are fixing our bodies.  Additionally being transsexual is not a behavior nor is it a lifestyle or way of life, it is a treatable medical condition.

4.  This is why "we folks" are offended when others make such statements.

Just my 2 cents :)

Steph
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Sophie

Transsexualism is... mutilation.

That's what my dad thinks of transsexuals anyway. Meh, I'll have some explaining to do...
I don't agree with the veiw that actually quite a few people hold that we mutilate our bodies - we repare our bodies.
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Elaine

#11
::Cracks knuckles::


I understand Stephanie's point of view, in that these question's shouldn't have to be justified, but there are people that exist in my life that don't understand, but might be capable of understanding, and I'd like to do whatever I can to help them. In the end, I don't really expect any of my close family to really understand, but at least I wil know I tried, and maybe they're a little more open now, too.

So, clumped into one huge statement, this is what I would say:

"Transsexualism is not normal?" I say... But my friend, normality is not absolute. Normality is constantly changing; always in flux. It not only changes over time, but it changes from place to place... Every culture is different, and in the majority of Western culture, we do have what most people would consider a "standard of normalcy". It caught my eye what James said about 90% of the world probably not understanding what transsexualism is, but in fact, either 40% or 60% (I can't remember which) of the worlds cultures have an accepted concept of a third sex. In the United States, Many North American plains Indians had something called a "berdach'e" (sp?).... if a man didn't like going to war or hunting, and in fact had an aversion toward "womanly duties", he was often made an "honorary woman", and was treated as such. Looking in Africa and South America, accepted positions for "third sex people" abound. In fact, anthropology has 4 or 5 classifications of sex/gender in culture (depending on which professor you ask). In any culture, it's not uncommon for men to dress as woman during certain times of year, for example during one of the Spanish festivals in the smaller towns of that country. Geography aside, concepts of normality and sex/gender have changed countless times since humanity's existence. If you could travel a thousand years into the future, and dig a deep whole, miles down, and look at the individual layers of dirt that each represent a period in human history, you would find that the layer that represents the time and "values" of now take up an infinitesimaly small layer that would represent less than a percent of all the strata in that hole! All the current commonly held values of Western culture like "transsexuality is abnormal" represent such a small piece of our history that spans many 10s of thousands of years back. Yet, what most people consider the natural state of humans is a person who has a family unit, married to the opposite sex, who goes to work, who has kids etc etc, and this is considered by most to be the "natural state" of humans. But the term "natural state" is so misleading and subjective as to be completely useless. For the vast majority of human existence, humans have not formed family units, they have not gone to work from 9-5, and they did NOT have a concept of transsexualism as being bad. Of course, I am taking into account unrecorded human history, but that is a BIG part of out past, and, I might add, a time before religion even existed!

Religion (read: NOT spiritualism) is the source of so many misconceptions about transsexualism, but so many humans didn't even know the meaning of the word! (or had the capability to speak it, for that matter). So what happened to those people who existed before religion? Did they all go to hell because they were godless heathens? Well I should hope not! They couldn't help there lot in life. They were born the way they were, when they were. That kind of reminds my of someone... me. Us. The transgendered community, who by a mistake in our prenatal life were born with opposing mental and physical genders. "But God doesn't make mistakes!" you say. And I say the dinosaurs, and the mammoths, and another 1000 or so extinct species that don't exist anymore would beg to differ! If God doesn't make mistakes, how do you account for all those (apparently) failed species? What about when someone is born with a missing lung? Or simply, bad eyes? Are these not mistakes of birth? God doesn't individually sculpt each person, evolution does that. I give God a lot more credit than to think She would have it so that every person must be made manually, by Her, and thus infallibly... Doesn't it make a lot more sense that an all knowing, ever-present being like God is responsible for evolution? That She would put this amazing, beautiful system in place to let life play itself out? We know evolution exists, and we know mistakes happen, so doesn't that make a lot more sense? Evolution, in fact, depends on mistakes! A mistake in a genetic sequence will yield a mutation, and evolution depends on the fact that, every once in a while, by chance, that mutation will be a good thing, and that animal will thrive and (hopefully) reproduce. Without an unthinkable number of physiological mistakes since the beginning of life on Earth, we humans would still be swimming around in a puddle of mud somewhere. Unfortunately, most mistakes aren't good, and when they happen, we fix them! If someone is born with bad eyes, we don't say "it was God's will, so this person shouldn't suffer and have bad eyes, because to fix it would be an abomination". We DON'T say that! Why? Because we have technology to fix it... it's called glasses. Just as we have the technology to fix a broken arm, or to mend a faulty heart. We have the technology, so we fix these things. So why the hell would we let a person who was born with the wrong physical gender go on suffering like that?

We are humans, we are the only one's on this beautiful planet that have technology. Technology is our legacy... We improve our lives with our brains, because we were lucky enough to be able to use them. So we continue our evolution where our biology stops, and continue with medical technology. The human being is incapable of evolving any farther by chance. Evolution depends on mutation, and we have reached the point that we don't allow mutations... they are considered abnormal, and we use our brains to fix them. If a baby is born with a mutation, we do our best to fix it! Because we don't allow mutations, (and thus we don't allow further evolution), any further evolution of the human species will be borne of our minds... in machines that can give an amputee a leg back, and maybe someday give them a better leg... because we can! That's what we are capable of... to deny that (the ability to fix and improve ourselves) would be to deny our humanity.

There are many examples "unnatural" behavior in nature. The Bonobo chimps of Asia are known to engage in lesbian love! "Oh my God! An animal doing something 'unnatural? But they define our concept of nature!" say the idiots. I guess their concept of natural isn't right... surprise surprise.

Life is far more complex than any number of words in the Bible... no matter what anyone would have you believe, you cannot think of ANYTHING in absolute terms. Normalcy? Inconstant. Blasphemy? The accusation of someone with a gross misunderstanding of existence. Threatening? Only to those incapable of thinking for themselves. Birth into the wrong gender? Another thing to be fixed with our technology.
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Sheila

These are terms that you don't have to answer to anyone except yourself. Everyone will come up with their own little answers and difinitions. I know I have answered everyone of these terms to groups of people where I have given talks. These are personal answers and I will not answer for someone else. People who ask these questions are either people who ignorant to transgender terms and who don't really know people like us. There are a lot of them out there. Then you have the religious people who are ignorant in what transgender really means and who we are. If you really want to enlighten these people you have to set examples for them and if they ask, answer them honestly. Don't hide who you are. Some people are just plain curious.
Sheila
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HelenW

Thank you all for your enlightening comments.  I agree with many, if not all, of them and I especially appreciate Sheila's comment, "These are terms that you don't have to answer to anyone except yourself. Everyone will come up with their own little answers and definitions."  So, with that view in mind, hoping that sharing these may bring understanding to others, I would like to share these "answers to myself."  This is a long document (more than 1,800 words) so I'll post it in sections.

Transexualism is .  .   .

- all about Vanity
   Well, no one wants to be repulsive, as far as I know.  However, think about it: I am considering a change that will transform me from a reasonably good looking man (if others are to be believed) to a large balding woman with small breasts, a brow ridge, no upper lip and no hips.  But, I'd rather be an ugly woman than a good looking man because, ugly or not, that's what I feel myself to be! Vanity has nothing to do with it.

- Selfishness
   This is a tough one for me.  Merriam-Webster Online defines selfishness as, "concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others." (italics mine) 
          One of the things that distresses me the most about our culture is that most evil is perpetrated not by those who do it consciously but by thoughtless, lazy and selfish people.  As a matter of fact, I think the definition of evil is absolutely incomprehensible without the inclusion of selfishness.  I have responsibilities to a number of other human beings on this planet and I have to consider how my actions will affect them.  And I do.  So, I'm not really considering doing this without regard for others.  I must consider the effect my transition would have on the people that rely on me.  Of course, though, I would also have to consider the effect of not making any changes and there's the rub.  This genie's out of the bottle and absolutely nothing will stuff it back in.  Been there, done that, absolutely failed.  Of that I'm completely convinced.  If the last nine months are any indication of how my life will be should I decide to repress my self once again for the comfort of others and conformance to social norms, then I would be choosing to live with a growing sense of isolation, anger and depression that would ultimately hasten me towards my death, either by my own hand or from the effects of the stress.  How would that serve those who rely on me?  No, it only appears selfish when a person considers someone's working towards transition from their side only.  And that, ironically, is a rather selfish position to take!

(this is the first installment of my 2 cents)
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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Joseph

There is a saying that goes, opinions are like a** holes.  Everyone has one, and they usually stink. ;D This is usually because opinions are based on incomplete or skewed information.  In general I try not to judge other people's actions, because I don't understand what it's been like to be in their shoes over the course of their lifetime.  In their shoes, I may very well have made the same choices.

With that said, I'm in Kimberly and Sheila's camp on this one.  You have to come to grips with who you really are on the inside.  The only other person that can really be involved with this is God, if you believe in one.  Others may help, but no one else can tell you who you are.  If, after much soul-searching, you find you are absolutely, without-a-doubt, transsexual, I don't see how you could "just ignore it" or "make it go away".  You may as well try to lift mount everest with your pinkie, for all the good it would do.

My item to add to your list, Helen:

Transsexualism is ... a birth defect, not unlike blindness, many heart conditions, insensitivity to pain, mangled limbs, or even being too short or too tall.  (The notion that it's a choice is complete nonsense.  Given the anguish involved, why would anyone choose to be TS? It's not exactly the cool/hip thing to do, either.) There are many ways to deal with this condition, and as with other birth defects, ridicule and condemnation don't help.  Not everyone takes medical actions to fix the situation.  However, for those who do, to quote Terri-Gene, I have a body and a mind.  Guess which one I don't want messed with?  From this viewpoint, it would seem that most (if not all) of the items on your list fall into one category, imho: garbage that should be taken out in your next trip to the dumpster.

My 5 cents.  I charge more after midnight.  Takes me longer to fuse thoughts together.  ;)

Joseph
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Alexandra

Quote from: Joseph on February 20, 2006, 12:34:24 AM
There is a saying that goes, opinions are like a** holes.  Everyone has one, and they usually stink. ;D imho this is usually because opinions are based on incomplete or skewed information.

Ding!

"incomplete information."

there is NO evidence that can be confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt that proves God took a stand one way or the other on transexualism. In fact there is no evidence God even exists (or doesn't exist). What we do have however, is a planet full of people with opinions based on hearsay. Thats sad IMO.
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Victoria L.

Of course they say that stuff. Stupid assumptions that can be taken care of with a simple small debate.

I hate closeminded people. Seriously. >:(
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Kimberly

Quote from: Victoria on February 20, 2006, 01:45:57 AM...
Stupid assumptions that can be taken care of with a simple small debate.
...
Often yes, but not always.
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HelenW

Thank you for those responses.  The next sections cover some sexual arguments and the biblical ones.  Everyone's input is very welcome.  Thanks!

Here's the next installment - Transexualism is .  .   .

- a Perversion
- Homosexuality
- a Fetish
   These three are all related to sexuality and are only included in this list because gender and sexuality are inextricably linked in almost everyone's mind.  Some of us know better but how do we know?  First of all, we know because nothing is being perverted!  Someone calling something a perversion is really making a moral judgment.  Those who believe that morals are absolute (in other words, I'm right, always right, you're wrong) will never let go of that position.  So it becomes a moot point, not worth talking about.  They're convinced.  But to someone who is flexible and willing to consider other points of view would have to admit that naming something a perversion is a personal judgment, subjective, not an absolute fact. 
   Homosexuality?  If it were really related to that, then all transmen would immediately want to have sex with women and all transwomen would want to have sex with men.  Since it's easily proven that this is not the case, this attribute is also proven false.
   The fetish attribute falls into the domain of those who believe in >-bleeped-< (defined as a man's sexual arousal at the thought of being a woman)  The overriding application of this concept, of course, is demolished by the existence of transmen.  But are there men who, instead of being sexually turned on by wearing women's clothes or any other object, cannot get off unless they're "wearing" a woman's body?  I suppose it's possible but to tar all transsexuals with that brush is absolute narrow mindedness.  I also suspect that after a few months of hormone treatment most if not all those who labor under the effect of this fetish would begin to wonder where their "turn on" went and immediately drop the treatment.  I personally believe that >-bleeped-< may be a symptom of gender identity disorder, something that happens when you mix the soul of a woman with testosterone in the body of a man and then apply huge amounts of social pressure to deny the internal truth.

- an Abomination
- Blasphemy
   These terms are religious in nature.  In our culture more than likely they're biblical terms.  The "abomination" word comes from chapter 22 of the book of Deuteronomy, verse 5.  Since it's always a good idea to investigate the context of any bible verse I read the whole chapter.  This chapter, which documents Old Testament Jewish law, includes verses that instruct the Isrealites to stone women to death in front of their own house if they were not virgins when they were married.  Hardly something that is condoned, let alone encouraged, today.  It also orders that men who "seize" a virgin and "lie" with her, if they are discovered, must marry the girl and forfeit any rights to divorce.  The poor woman is coerced, by law, to marry her rapist!  And what recourse is mentioned if they're not discovered?  I find none.  Only the most narrow minded bigots that refuse to use their greatest God given talent, their rational mind, would consider these rules to be orders from above that should be followed today.  If one can consider that the Bible is a document written in the context of an ancient culture, then the "abomination" attribute must be considered as the same kind of anachronism that the rest of the chapter is.
   Blasphemy is a fancy word for the "God doesn't make mistakes, who are you to change your sex" school of thought.  Of course, everyone changes physical things that they don't like.  Merely taking a pain reliever could be considered blasphemous in that light, for crying out loud!  "God gave you that headache, so lay down and suffer like a good Christian should!"  Ridiculous!


(second installmet, 2 cents)
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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jamesBrine

hello!
Sorry if my writting on the homosexuality part was misleading. I did not intend to say that switching over makes you gay but rather puts you in gay marriage. (at least visibly maybe not leagally)

Second: When one does switch over do you become legally the other sex or remain the same? my other question is what defines a gay/lesbian marriage?

thanks for the answer steph!
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