For a mtf woman, when is transitioning “over”? Are we always transgender?

[Stevie]

I'm one of those that think if, I cannot birth a child, as hard as I try, I can never be a woman.

There are many women who can not give birth this does not make them less of a woman.

[EllenJ2003]

I know this is going to seem flipping crazy, but privately I've never considered myself transgender, although I've fully embraced the community. I can't remember a time in my life when I ever accepted the assigned male at birth label. Now, I played that role, but I always saw it as just that, acting. I've always been female in appearance, didn't go through male puberty, no body hair or beard, and grew small breasts instead. As far as I'm concerned, I was born with a small birth defect, which I will be getting corrected soon. I may be in a minority within our community, and I'm not suggesting it's inaccurate for others to use it, but how can the prefix "trans" accurately apply when my gender has always been female? I just can't accept that. Has anyone else ever felt this way?

Yup me too.

Ellen

[Rachel]

My medical transition is taking way longer than I thought it would. However, I think next year I will be done. I have another vaginal operation (3rd) in April 2019 and I will be done one way or another. My BA was to be a full C and I am a full B, I am getting use to it. I am thin so it looks appropriate, I guess. I have permission from insurance for another BA but I am tired of operations. I could go for another hair graft but it looks good now so perhaps not. I wanted to get a little mid face lift due to the FFS. I had a mid face lift then but with the jaw work it was only 80%. Perhaps some day.

Medically once I am past April I am just doing electrolysis and that is my plan. I was going to get my tummy and oblique fat removal (and reuse the fat ) but I am losing a lot of fat from my tummy and obliques and have very little now. By mid summer I will be where it needs to be from diet and exercise.

I feel pretty comfortable in my body now. So I guess medically I am about done. The revision work is really a bit difficult to take because I really want to be done. I understand why the doctor is doing the work and agree it will be well worth it.

Socially I have transitioned but I am very apprehensive to go into places where I will meet guys. This is what I am working on. Tomorrow night I will make a small attempt to meet guys at a singles place near me. I really hate to think someone is judging me.

I did all the legal work before I had GCS. There was no way I was going to have my old male name on my hospital chart. Once my ex said she was divorcing me I took my transition to warp 9.

I am definitely treated as female at work both professionally and personally. It took a while to get use to but it is very telling of how others treat the opposite sex, both males and females.

I see myself as female and think of myself as female but I feel that others see me as trans.

[KimOct]

Being new to this site I am hesitant to speak my mind on this but I can't help myself.  My opinion is nothing more than that - my opinion and not judgment on others.

I think there are multiple answers to this question and none are necessarily black and white.  I see a lot of gray in the world and I think this topic is a perfect example.

I am of two minds on this subject.

1.  Yes we will always be transgender.
2.  We are completely women.

How can those both be true?  My position is that we were genetically born male (intersex not included) and that will never change.  No amount of surgery or HRT will change that fact.  We can wish and wish ( I do ) but I was still assigned male at birth due to my genitalia therefore I will always be transgender.

And that's good.  I am proud of myself to be an openly transgender woman.  To have the courage to live authentically.
I understand that those that have the ability to be stealth and choose to live that way certainly have the right to do so. However I believe to truly move the needle in society toward greater transgender acceptance it is necessary for more of us to live openly and own our truth.  I will always be transgender.

2.  I am a woman - I was born one mentally and emotionally.  Genitalia is a physical fact. Gender is a societal construct.  I am not a ciswoman. I am a transgender woman. But still a woman.

[Linde]

I know this is going to seem flipping crazy, but privately I've never considered myself transgender, although I've fully embraced the community. I can't remember a time in my life when I ever accepted the assigned male at birth label. Now, I played that role, but I always saw it as just that, acting. I've always been female in appearance, didn't go through male puberty, no body hair or beard, and grew small breasts instead. As far as I'm concerned, I was born with a small birth defect, which I will be getting corrected soon. I may be in a minority within our community, and I'm not suggesting it's inaccurate for others to use it, but how can the prefix "trans" accurately apply when my gender has always been female? I just can't accept that. Has anyone else ever felt this way?

I am like you, never got any of the secondary male sex characteristics, no Adams Apple, but I slight beard growth (I know several cis women, who have more).
I really don't consider myself transgender either, I am just in the process to reclaim the body I had at birth.  The birth defect was surgically applied to me, and now it has to be removed again by surgical means!

[warlockmaker]

My take on this is:  If the female cis community accepts you as cis you are a female. The cis females can respect you, be great friends and accept you are a female TG,  but the cis female experience of having periods is a female bonding that defines a real female. We can always try and rationalize our fantacies and come up with reasons why we consider ourselves to have always been female. Be proud to be the superior gender -  a tg female.

Because we are not cis we are constantly learning to live our lives as tg females. There is little precedense as to  how we should adapt and how we will behave as individuals, we are the pioneers of the new gender.

[Rachel_Christina]

In the end of the day, the very term "transgender" is a weird and flawed term.
If we actually managed to "trans" our gender then we would be happy confident biological men, without a care in the world.

But we cannot change our genders, so we change our sex to the best of our abilities.
In the end of the day we are transsexual, still a flawed term being we cannot change all that assigned us male in the first place.
But it's more correct than transgender.
People just don't want to use the term transsexual cause it has the word "sex" or sexual" in it. And thus it becomes taboo just like everything to do with sex always does.
Strange world we live in

[Beverly Anne]

We can always try and rationalize our fantacies and come up with reasons why we consider ourselves to have always been female. There is little precedense as to  how we should adapt and how we will behave as individuals, we are the pioneers of the new gender.

Points well taken. It's a fascinating subject at the intersection of science, philosophy, sociology and psychology, isn't it? Perhaps the answer lies more in the realm of existentialism than biology; however, as someone living the pioneer experience I'm driven to believe that gender is hard-wired within us, regardless of genitalia. It's Western society that doesn't have it quite right, yet. There lies the work.

Perhaps, to your point, biologically there is something evolutionary happening here to our species in terms of gender/sex. Is our species evolving anatomically and neurologically towards a less binary system on the whole? Instead of a new gender, a broad spectrum of genders emerges. I'm inclined to accept that view. Our culture is playing catch up, for better or worse, as awareness of our very real dilemma has been heightened.

[TonyaW]

In the end of the day, the very term "transgender" is a weird and flawed term.
If we actually managed to "trans" our gender then we would be happy confident biological men, without a care in the world.

But we cannot change our genders, so we change our sex to the best of our abilities.
In the end of the day we are transsexual, still a flawed term being we cannot change all that assigned us male in the first place.
But it's more correct than transgender.
People just don't want to use the term transsexual cause it has the word "sex" or sexual" in it. And thus it becomes taboo just like everything to do with sex always does.
Strange world we live in

I believe this is why the term transsexual has been replaced with transgender.  Too many people still can't see gender and sexuality as separate things. 

You're correct that what we are changing is our anatomical sex and not our innate gender, so transsexual is actually a more accurate description.

Now some related random thoughts out loud.

I think the structure of the English language has something to do with this.  By putting adjectives first, we focus on the description rather than the subject.

We say tall woman,short woman, trans woman, cis woman and the focus us on the adjective.

If we could say woman tall, woman shortn woman cis, woman trans, it might be easier for others to see us as women first. 

Transgender is a medical condition, and it is similar to any chronic health issue in that it will always affect our healthcare. So in this sense we will always be transgender.
For example, I still will need prostate exams and not cervical exams. My body does not make estrogen so I will always need to supplement.  Somewhere down the road medical science may advance to where this is no longer the case, but I doubt its happening in my life time. 






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[TonyaW]

My take on this is:  If the female cis community accepts you as cis you are a female. The cis females can respect you, be great friends and accept you are a female TG,  but the cis female experience of having periods is a female bonding that defines a real female. We can always try and rationalize our fantacies and come up with reasons why we consider ourselves to have always been female. Be proud to be the superior gender -  a tg female.

Because we are not cis we are constantly learning to live our lives as tg females. There is little precedense as to  how we should adapt and how we will behave as individuals, we are the pioneers of the new gender.

Don't go there.  Stating that we are not real women for any reason adds to fuel to the fire for the haters that would exclude us from restrooms etc.  We are REAL women. Yes, different, but still real. 

Being accepted by cis women is quite validating, but it's not what makes us women.

And yes, I've always been female.  To say otherwise would imply that I chose to "become a woman".  What I chose was to live as my innate gender, not as what my birth anatomy would dictate.

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[Linde]

And than you have people like I, born intersex (how come that sex can be used with this term?).  We are basically 1/2 male and 1/2 female.  I was told by my docs that the female side of me is dominant (I had a female type menopause 16 years ago - and my genome is that of a post menopausal female).  What is with us?  Can we ever be trans, or do we just change the primary exterior gender indicators (genitals) to become full women?  Some person did a change on me at my birth, and I was declared to be male. 
No cis male ever had any doubt that I was a fellow guy!  Why do cis women have a doubt that I am a fellow woman once my genitals have been changed?  I might have a uterus like many intersex people have, it is just not connected to the right stuff. 
Somebody would have to cut me open to find it, and I am not so wild about it, but we know that it is pretty common with AMAB intersex persons.
My question is, am I really trans or just changing to one of my original genders?  Once I had bottom surgery, will I be a  "real" woman, or will I always be a trans woman?
It is very confusing for me, because nobody ever considered me to be a trans man, and now that I am in the process to let the other 1/2 of my biology out, I am all of a sudden trans?

The entire trans and intersex thing is very confusing!

[ChrissyRyan]

I know that I am a woman.  My body does not fully represent that.  I cannot change that my gender is female.  Would someone be able to change my gender for me?  No.  I do not want to regardless.  My body could be changed but my gender could not be changed.

I went through a long period coping with and trying to deny that I am female.  I hear that is common.  That does not make me any less a female, I am simply not supressing my true self as I previously did.

A lot of people would think that this situation is imaginary or a mental defect.  I do not think that at all.

I found it quite liberating that I have accepted that I am a woman.  I am not full time and it may be awhile for that, but that is okay for now.  I am happy that I now know what my future paths can really be.  This is good.

I am transgender, AMAB, mtf.  I do not regret that or see any shame in that.  We all realize things at our own speed, in our own circumstances.

I love that I am a woman.

Chrissy

[Swedishgirl96]

For me transition will be over when I feel that my body matches with my identity. When I feel comfortable in my own skinn. A feeling of self respect and self love. When one does not have to deal with gender dysphoria.

When that happens I believe, at this moment at lest, that I will view myself as a woman with a transgender background. And I believe that I will be comfortable with that.

[barbie]

Perhaps, to your point, biologically there is something evolutionary happening here to our species in terms of gender/sex. Is our species evolving anatomically and neurologically towards a less binary system on the whole? Instead of a new gender, a broad spectrum of genders emerges. I'm inclined to accept that view. Our culture is playing catch up, for better or worse, as awareness of our very real dilemma has been heightened.

As you know, some fish and shellfish species change their sex while growing up. Sex and reproductive methods are far  more flexible and diverse in fish species such as Nemo.



What would the advantages of the sex change be?

barbie~~

[IAmM]

I think that biologically speaking we will always be transgender/transsexual/whatever. Even when it is hard to see or remember the fact that we have come from A to B doesn't actually go away. I had a dog when I was little that would refuse to look at you when he did something wrong. He would hide his head in the sofa, turn away and would even keep his eyes tightly shut when you tried to force him to look at you. I understand the desire to disassociate with what came before but it is still there. Shut your eyes as tightly as you want, what was once a throw pillow is still nothing but fluffy white innards all over the living room floor. File it away and move on, own it or it will own you.

Transition itself ends, it's even part of the definition. Maybe we all have to figure out when it is over for us. For me it was physical but more importantly social transition. I haven't had my surgery yet but have considered my transition over years ago when my social transition was done. I have integrated and live the only life I have ever wanted. I have a friend that started to transition when I did, she is on the waiting list to have her surgery and that is her ultimate goal of transition and when she says her transition will be over. Social transition was never a priority for her, she loves being in between, loves being a question mark. From the beginning she said that she would be a tomboy, it fits her perfectly and oddly enough, she gets misgendered more when she dresses more feminine.

Life seems to get put on hold when we start to transition, maybe we never actually unpause it but we are living again and our gender is for us what it has always been for the rest of the world, a nonissue. I would guess that is the point when our own transition is over. No diploma, holy cow moments long gone, we don't even remember when the weight we carried disappeared and life just moved on. We will have scars of being born a different gender the rest of our lives, sometimes they may even be painful, but the healing will be done.

What are we when transition is over? I am not going to try unraveling that, I just don't know what definition fits. I feel feminine inside and out and the world treats me like a woman, that really works for me and I am content.

[Michelle_P]

Please be careful about any real women arguments.

I've heard enough of these to know how very hurtful they can be to women born with vaginal agenesis, uterine agenesis, other uterine disorders, genetic or epigenetic issues, prenatal chemical or drug exposure damage (DES and other hormone disrupters!), and related issues that result in chronic amenorrhea, sterility, and related issues.

A woman is still a woman in spite of these issues.

A woman unable to give birth is still a woman.

A woman who has had a complete hysterectomy with cervical closure is still a woman.

A woman unable to nurse an infant is still a woman.

What make one a woman is not the presence or absence of certain genetalia at birth, or the presence or absence of specific physical details.

Gender identity is set in the brain, before birth, very likely in the growth of a variety of neurological structures we know correlate strongly with the sense of gender identity in men or women.

[HappyMoni]

Michelle, I like your answer/comment. I liken this question to the matrix movie. Do you see ones and zeros as you look at the screen or do you see the girl in the red dress. Some people take the blue pill and some take the red. Sorry, enough matrix as I see a bunch of you bending over backwards to avoid my post. My answer is that there is no one answer that pleases all. The perspective that allows for us to be happiest might be best. As for me, I hope I'm not on my deathbed saying, "Damn that Y chromosome." lol

[IAmM]

Moni,
  Forgive me but as I read your post I couldn't help but think.
  I liken your deathbed, may it be a hundred years from now, to Bill Murray dying in Zombieland. You will probably make everyone laugh through their tears.
  Follow the white rabbit.

Love ya babes,
Michelle

[EllenJ2003]

Please be careful about any real women arguments.

I've heard enough of these to know how very hurtful they can be to women born with vaginal agenesis, uterine agenesis, other uterine disorders, genetic or epigenetic issues, prenatal chemical or drug exposure damage (DES and other hormone disrupters!), and related issues that result in chronic amenorrhea, sterility, and related issues.

A woman is still a woman in spite of these issues.

A woman unable to give birth is still a woman.

A woman who has had a complete hysterectomy with cervical closure is still a woman.

A woman unable to nurse an infant is still a woman.

What make one a woman is not the presence or absence of certain genitalia at birth, or the presence or absence of specific physical details.

Gender identity is set in the brain, before birth, very likely in the growth of a variety of neurological structures we know correlate strongly with the sense of gender identity in men or women.

VERY true - especially with regards to those who use the genetics argument to define who is a "real woman" or a "real man.".  A case in point is CAIS women - who in general happen to look and in many cases look and act more feminine than your typical women (a few highly paid models have CAIS), and have absolutely no desire to be/live as men.  Are you going to tell them "well, you're not really women - you're a men due to your XY chromosomal configuration, who due to a gene mutation can't process androgens/testosterone"?  From what I've read, that argument flies with them about as well as a lead balloon.  Ditto for XX males.  What do you tell those with Kleinfelter's - they're not really male (or female of they're transgender or transsexual) due to being XXY?  Not every person with intersex chromosomal variations wants be considered a Third Sex.   

[Kylo]

Tough question.

If the condition itself is caused by genetic, brain or hormonal factors, then a person is technically transgender whatever action they take or do not take; but we don't even know how those factors work fully yet. I suppose there could also be a person who has hormonal, brain or genetic factors affecting them as it does us, and yet does not feel they are transgender at all (asymptomatic). They too would be technically transgender.

That said, it's a merely a functional descriptor. It hardly describes much about an individual in totality. To think of myself as "a transgender individual" is practically meaningless in my life outside of a factual or scientific discussion. It's of general use only at the doctor's office or in a debate or discussion with people from the trans demographic. It's meaningless to people who know me, and to people who don't know me. It might be important to anyone thinking of dating me, but most of the time it's an unnecessary piece of information.

It certainly is not a third gender or third type of human being, in my opinion. Transition begins when you have decided for it to begin and it ends when you have no more need for the term I would say