Conflicting ideas of fairness in women’s sports fuel transgender participation

[Finally Anna]

I will admit that I flip flop a lot over this topic. A lot.

Jillian, you summed it up perfectly.
💕

[Lori Dee ✅]

If you want another perspective from the inside, read some of the posts by our member BlueJaye. She has been through this from "our side," and this comment hit home for me:

I don't think that's really it. My experience with USA Boxing showed me that it's really about protecting a brand image and keeping undesirable people out of their sport.

Well said, Katie.

[Finally Anna]

Even within our own community, there are people who believe the stereotype, or even embrace it as a desirable trait.

As I know that my views on this might be erroneously interpreted as "believeing the stereotype" wrt my previous posts in this thread, I want to emphasize that I absolutely rely on, and believe in, the scientific investigations and reports. I have lived in science all my life and that does not change just because I am now transfemme.

I also think that Lori Dee's post is both reasonable and relevant.
I also think that Jillian's post is both reasonable and relevant.

It is quite possible to view many things from several different angles, each angle then comes with its own rationale and feelings which may be contradictory with the view from other angles.

Per aspera ad Astra!

[Devlyn ✅]

Part of the issue is that, in patriarchal societies, women are viewed as the "weaker sex". In past ages, they were viewed as less intelligent, inferior, and were not permitted to participate in political or religious debates. Those stereotypes still exist despite science proving otherwise. It took decades of effort just for American women to gain the right to vote in 1920.

I see the women's sports issue as an extension of that. No one is crying because trans men are in the locker rooms, showers, bathrooms, or competing and winning competitions against cis men. Why not? Because, using their own logic, their egos cannot handle the idea that they got "beat by a girl." But they also think of women as being weaker and needing protection from predators who would take advantage of them. So the sports/bathrooms are the perfect place to focus the crosshairs.

It doesn't matter (as we have read above) that studies have shown that the advantages disappear while on hormone therapy over time. Even within our own community, there are people who believe the stereotype, or even embrace it as a desirable trait. It doesn't matter that statistics show that transgender women are not misbehaving in restrooms, are not committing mass shootings and other violent crimes, and, in fact, are more likely to be the victim in a confrontation or criminal act.

Media, especially social media, is a political propaganda machine. It is used every day to spread false and misleading information to shape public perception for an agenda. Politicians do it, advertisers do it, organizations do it, and the public eats it up and helps to spread it around.

So what is the source? If we step back and take a hard look at the core of what "genetic advantage" implies, it is inherently racist. The Far Right™ is clearly a White Christian National movement. But due to the backlash from prior civil rights movements, no one wants to be labeled as a racist. And yet, civil rights were denied to a major chunk of our population based solely upon genetic and cultural differences.

The "genetic advantage" in sports is a false flag. No one is suggesting banning East Africans from running marathons, despite the fact that they consistently win due to cultural advantages and a willingness to train extensively to enhance them. No one is suggesting banning other races from sports due to their biological advantage, despite medical testing, historical studies, and other evidence that they have a "genetic advantage".

When we allow governing bodies to use that criterion to strip civil rights, well, as the saying goes: "Give them an inch, and they will take a mile."

That's my take on it.

And when those very same women insist that they shouldn't play chess against men, or who they see as men, they are admitting it is true. Thereby shooting themselves in the foot.

[Lori Dee ✅]

As I know that my views on this might be erroneously interpreted as "believeing the stereotype" wrt my previous posts in this thread, I want to emphasize that I absolutely rely on, and believe in, the scientific investigations and reports. I have lived in science all my life and that does not change just because I am now transfemme.

I also think that Lori Dee's post is both reasonable and relevant.
I also think that Jillian's post is both reasonable and relevant.

It is quite possible to view many things from several different angles, each angle then comes with its own rationale and feelings which may be contradictory with the view from other angles.

Per aspera ad Astra!

Well said, Anna.

And I did not intend it to be derogatory in any way. I am not pointing fingers.

There are religious groups that view women as "lesser" and something to be protected, and many embrace that perception due to indoctrination, religious beliefs, or because it is a role they wish to fill for their own personal reasons.

Others may view the roles as an affirmation of femininity, and so adopt that as part of their persona.

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and decisions on how to live their lives. I am not knocking that.

I just see the source as amplifying that role through propaganda to "force" everyone into the same box and doing it to limit their participation in society as a whole. That seems to be part of the core agenda.

[Finally Anna]

Lori Dee, no offense taken and I did not feel pointed at. Was just that I realised that my posts could be read in a way that is different from how my mind is wired.
🥰

[Devlyn ✅]

Well said, Anna.

And I did not intend it to be derogatory in any way. I am not pointing fingers.

There are religious groups that view women as "lesser" and something to be protected, and many embrace that perception due to indoctrination, religious beliefs, or because it is a role they wish to fill for their own personal reasons.

Others may view the roles as an affirmation of femininity, and so adopt that as part of their persona.

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and decisions on how to live their lives. I am not knocking that.

I just see the source as amplifying that role through propaganda to "force" everyone into the same box and doing it to limit their participation in society as a whole. That seems to be part of the core agenda.

If we as a community also embrace the propaganda, our detractors can point to our very own posts and say "See, even the transes don't think they should be allowed in sports!"

There have been mentions of unfair advantage in this thread, but anything more than a cursory look at the propaganda reveals that the claims rely heavily on the same very limited and exaggerated cases of transgender wins:

Laurel Hubbard? No Olympic wins, she didn't even complete her lift. Yes, she medalled at a few smaller regional competitions.

Rachel McKinnon? She won gold twice... but the woman who complained about her had actually beaten Rachel 10 times out of 12.

Lia Thomas? She won the 500m freestyle at the 2022 NCAA event. At the same event she finished 5th in the 200m and 8th (last place) in the 100m. Riley Gaines, who complained? She tied Thomas for 5th in a different event.

There are more, like a disc golfer (Riley Gaines couldn't keep her mouth shut about that either), a darts player, a nonbinary soccer player, a basketball player (both obviously team events where a single player only contributes so much).

Nobody takes estradiol for a competitive advantage. No trans women* have ever won a medal at the Olympics. Laurel Hubbard is the only transgender woman to even make it to the Olympics.

If there's such a huge advantage, where are all the wins? Why aren't transgender women dominating all sports?



*Quinn is non-binary, not a transgender woman.

[Petunia]

Somebody I feel sorry for is Caster Semenya.

Assigned female at birth, identifies as female but has natural advantages in her chosen events.

It's a long story of being singled out for having a natural advantage and being turned into a guinea pig while competing.

It's not a case of being transgender it is a case of competetive advantage.

So what is fair in sport. Compared to the general population, all elite athletes have some level of natural advantage.

[Devlyn ✅]

Somebody I feel sorry for is Caster Semenya.

Assigned female at birth, identifies as female but has natural advantages in her chosen events.

It's a long story of being singled out for having a natural advantage and being turned into a guinea pig while competing.

It's not a case of being transgender it is a case of competetive advantage.

So what is fair in sport. Compared to the general population, all elite athletes have some level of natural advantage.

Honestly, every Olympic level athlete is firmly in freak territory.

[Finally Anna]

It is inherently difficult, impossible even, to have nuanced and flexible discussions and arguments via internet. This applies to most every subject.
I'll rest there.
😉