Invasion

[pennyjane]

i, personally, have never advocated cd's not be here, or anywhere on the board.  it is a tg site, thus by definition includes cd's.  tg is an umbrella term that runs the gambit from panty fetishist to post-op transsexual.

my objection, and i have tried to say this as clearly as possible, in as many ways as i can...crossdressers are not women, and do not speak for women, when they do it is they who are out of bounds.

the michigan women's music festival is primarily composed of lesbian women.  that is one classification of people who hold us in very low esteem.  to them we are carpetbaggers in that environment.  that is a result of the same dynamic that illigitimizes us in many other forums, but these women seem to feel it with much more intensity.  although i tend to disagree with their limitation to womyn born womyn, i see their point and respect that as a point of view.  a point of view i will argue against, with respect.

for us, across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town is a good forum for making our feelings known and to conduct the debate in person.  i encourage all transsexuals to consider visiting there if they can.

[Wing Walker]

Posted on: 16 July 2008, 16:07:18

I have been in public and private meetings with transsexuals who had yet to start HRT and they were doing the best that they could to behave as in their proper gender.  There was no talk of things like dates, breaking a leg to light someone's smoke, or what they did when they last dated a woman who thought they were really a man.

Power never conceded anything without a demand and I personally demand that males leave us alone.  I work at a women's shelter and there is a large sign in the door telling men that they are not to go inside yet they try.  I have not become aware if a woman doing that at a men's shelter.  I stand at the top of the stairs at the entrance to confront them if necessary.

I agree hon. But like I said in one of my previous posts - if they act inappropriately or disrespectfully, take them to task, or kick them out. We talk alot about male privilege and power here, and yeah, men take, demand, force. But at a support meeting for trans-people, the trans-people have the power. By banning them all you do is transferring your power to them, because you are almost kinda conceding that they matter to the group. They are guests, until they prove themselves to be family, and if they are unwilling to act as such, they are welcome to leave.

~Simone.

[/quote]

Hi, Simone,

I do not fully understand what you have written about banning heterosexual males from a meeting of transsexuals being a concession of power.  The hetero males who entered that meeting did so under the thin veneer of their clothes and makeup.  Their presence was most disruptive.  What can they gain from hanging transsexual persons?

Thank you.

Wing Walker

[Ell]

Why is it that heterosexual males will not leave women have their own space? 

A few years ago I belonged to a transsexual support group in the Washington, DC suburbs.  It was put together by transsexuals, for transsexuals, and for many years only transsexuals came to the meetings.  Then the males came in.

Crossdressers, males in female attire and makeup, and they invaded a space for transsexuals.  I knew who and what they were.  they were not hard to spot.  I sat with two friends, M to F, as I was, and we watched and listened as a discussion ensued.  They wanted to be welcome in our meetings!  These males, the ones who crossdress on the weekends and might be the ones to make life miserable on transsexuals on the job and elsewhere, they, and their male privilege, invaded our space.

I was really disgusted by the discussion but what made me ill was when a certain person, let's call her Leslie, rose to speak.  This crossdresser began to speak, telling us that it was necessary to include everyone!  He was wearing black tights, a gray wool dress, black top, boiled wool clogs, and as he spoke, he began to scratch his balls!  He scratched his balls while dressed as a woman, in a room full of transsexuals, M to F and F to M!

There are places for crossdressers to gather where they will be with others of like interest and desires.  There are places like the Tri-Ess (Society for the Second Self) that meet regularly.  Why do they come into places that are labeled as transsexual?

Some things are beyond my ability to understand.

Wing Walker

holy cow, Ms. Walker, i have always thought of you as a very understanding and thoughtful person.

i hang out with cross dressers, on occasion, and lots of them are very charming and sweet.

these are human beings we're talking about here. and for that matter, so are men.

oh wait, i forgot what i was yelling at you about... nevermind.

-Ell

[Keira]

In the early 90's I went to a support group with about 75% were Cd of some sort
that never transitioned, there were the most flamboyant, aggressive and
opinionated of the lot. They were also incredibly self-centered. All the TS
there who were abviously much more messed up (I was having panic attacks
and extreme anxiety at that time), couldn't relate to the CD who always had the
floor. They talked about things I couldn't relate to.

Like I said, I know that nobody transitioned of those CD, so its not
like these pre TS CD's, they were plainly males.

Those groups went so badly that it led to the clear TS groups being split up
from the T's of various kind.

[cindybc]

i, personally, have never advocated cd's not be here, or anywhere on the board.  it is a tg site, thus by definition includes cd's.  tg is an umbrella term that runs the gambit from panty fetishist to post-op transsexual.

my objection, and i have tried to say this as clearly as possible, in as many ways as i can...crossdressers are not women, and do not speak for women, when they do it is they who are out of bounds.

the michigan women's music festival is primarily composed of lesbian women.  that is one classification of people who hold us in very low esteem.  to them we are carpetbaggers in that environment.  that is a result of the same dynamic that illigitimizes us in many other forums, but these women seem to feel it with much more intensity.  although i tend to disagree with their limitation to womyn born womyn, i see their point and respect that as a point of view.  a point of view i will argue against, with respect.

for us, across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town is a good forum for making our feelings known and to conduct the debate in person.  i encourage all transsexuals to consider visiting there if they can.

Hi, Pennyjane, I do pray you don't have to leave, like I have said before I have come to really like and respect you and your Annie even if I have not met her yet. I know there's a few flaws in these forums; we are only human and this place was perceived and organised by a human mind or maybe several but they are still only human. It was designed with the intent to give all under the umbrella of Transgender a home, that is correct. A place where these humans and brothers and sisters among other shunned and other outcasts, find this place to many like an oasis in that big desert out there.

They come here to share with each other. I have not experienced this recently, thank God, but here were times 8 years ago I spent entire nights up with a suicidal person.  You will find some things on this board that can be challenging, unfortunately we do not think, feel, and perceive things the same way, even if it's about the same subject.  If one is so inclined and have the sensitivity, compassionate and caring love enough to give out to another for some time out of each day to try and help or at least give comfort or share with those who you feel need it

It and that don't matter to me is they are transvestite or Post-op. I know when not to let someone enter my space. They are all people with feelings and emotions and capable to be happy or sad just same as those in society out there. After I got to be full time I worked with other folks in need and that was enough to fill my heart to keep going until the next customer.

I do not want to see Wing Walker or you disappear on this board, I love you guys. That's me that's my nature and was so for as far back as I can remember so my feelings and sensitivities have always been, I don't want to see anyone or anything get hurt. I am the type of person who will bring an injured animal home and end-up wanting to keep it for a pet.

Cindy

[JENNIFER]

Hi Nero hon, yes it certainly was. Like watching a ping pong game. Oh dash burn it, One of them lost the ball 

Cindy

Oh I wish i could lose both balls......

[Keira]

Online is different, and this place is made for everybody specifically,
and the T's here are a not like the CD's in those groups I talked
about. These had the empathy of a zombie, here, most people
do take into account the feelings of others (with exceptions
once in a while).

[glendagladwitch]

There are plenty of TS only forums out there.  I like having this one too, where TS and CD and IS and NULL and Feminist (did I miss anyone?) can exchange ideas.  It has been instructive so far.

Here are some videos that I think help demonstrate why some TS people are quick to villify CDs, and why some gay people are quick to villify TS people.  Notice the glee with which the brown eyed children place their collars on the blue eyed children on day two.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

[April221]

I think that they just misunderstand the true designation of TS. They are TG, which is nice, but for a group of TS, they simply are in the wrong place, and fail to understand. There are issues that are unique to the TS experience, and really don't involve TG, For example, most TS are undergoing HRT, which isn't an issue for CD's. TS issues involve transition, for many of us, it is not an option.  We HAVE TO transition. We discuss SRS and the choice of surgeons, FFS and recovery. Being TS is a MAJOR ISSUE in itself.

I've been to TG support meetings in New York City. It's a diverse TG drop in group, sometimes few show up, sometimes 40 people. There is a topic for the evening, some more interesting than others. I'm continually amazed at the diversity of gender awareness, and the way that people express their unique gender identities. I may not find the group discussing what I may prefer to hear, but I like people, and  I can have a pleasant evening.

We all have issues. We all have cross gendered feelings that are strong enough to need to be addressed. The urgency of those feelings varies widely, as is the way that individuals deal with their feelings, but it still comes down to all of us being people. And on that level, I can enjoy the meeting.

My view is colored by my experiences in life. I was socialized as a female into my teens. I had absolutely no male skills or social understanding. It destroyed my adult life beyond belief, and I'll probably see my therapist years post-op. I've learned to appreciate the community in all of its' diversity. Not a bad thing.

[NicholeW.]

There are plenty of TS only forums out there.  I like having this one too, where TS and CD and IS and NULL and Feminist (did I miss anyone?) can exchange ideas.  It has been instructive so far.

Here are some videos that I think help demonstrate why some TS people are quick to villify CDs, and why some gay people are quick to villify TS people.  Notice the glee with which the brown eyed children place their collars on the blue eyed children on day two.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

You could add maybe bi-and multi-gendered people, Glenda. Personally I think you are absolutely right.

I was exclusively on five MTF-TS-only boards when I first came to Susan's and at first was kinda taken aback by the fact that this was so not strictly TS. But, I have to say that among CDs, Androgynes, non- and multi-gendered people, as well as Fs, Ms, FTMs & MTFs I have come to truly appreciate opinions and life-experiences that have not been my own at all.

There is good in diversity and hearing and actually paying attention to things that are said and thought by people unlike myself. (I know why I have so loved my big-city jobs: I've worked with pretty much everyone.) There is nothing demeaning or bad about different povs, styles and lives at all. In fact, to have that is enriching for me.

Nichole

[TheBattler]

I hate these kinds of discussions,

I started out as a cross dresser and found out I was TS. To me we all TG and it is how we react to that fact is different. It is only recenty I knew I was female, I always said I was male but gee was I wrong. And last night I seams to confirm that when I told my specalist "If I go off HRT I get rid of Alice all together". I started out as a CD but for some reason I know hate that thought. We need to allow for interaction between everyone so that people can discover more about themselves.

Alice

[Kate]

Shouldn't a support group be allowed to define the support they offer?

I never attended all-embracing TG groups specifically because I knew they embraced everyone and all issues, and were mostly for providing a safe place for people to be "enfemme" for an evening, allowing them to compare and share with others doing the same. I didn't look down on them, it just wasn't what I needed.

On the other hand, I attended my therapist's support group because it was specifically for people transitioning, and I could relate to the issues being discussed. Again, it wasn't a "better than" thing, it was just being practical and focused.

Getting back to the original question, instead of saying "No Crossdressers Allowed," why not just say "this group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

~Kate~

[Chrissty]

To comment here, I guess I will have to take up the category of CD.

Going back to Wing Walkers original post, I actually think the comments are totally justified.
Like Kate says, as CD I would not expect to enter a TS support group unless something changed
and I met the entry requirements (and hence needs), or I was invited as a guest for specific meetings.

However there is no reason a suppport group can't also have additional open meetings, or
open social events for the wider community to exchange views.

There is also a big difference between corresponding on difficult subjects on a forum, and trying
to discuss the same topics face to face in a group.

My particular problem now, as Simone and Alice have pointed out, is that I don't feel I can relate
to either a CD group or a TS group. So you find me here trying to to resolve what I am, and where
I'm going, before I feel ready to participate in support group dynamics again.

I endorse Nichole's view that Susan's is a rich and dynamic source of interacting viewpoints that I
have not found on other forums....

So again thank you all....



Chrissty

[pennyjane]

i love diversity, it's what life is all about.  if anyone read my story of introduction one of the three people i love most in this world was mentioned, he is a crossdresser, and a most wonderful man.  he and "susan" and i are always together, we all go out of our ways often to see each other and share.  that he crossdresses is not an issue, susan and i love him because he is who he is and is comfortable with himself.  we have very different experiences, susan has gotten herself into transisiton now, "linda" has retired and living with her wife of some fifty years very comfortably.  we are still "kukla, fran and ollie".  ok, alot of you haven't a clue about that...just say we are very close.
we are different and we respect that.  none of us feels better or smarter or more legitimate then the other.  it's not hard, it's just respect.  i respect him as an individual, he has a lot to offer as a friend and a confidant.

drag is a problem for transsexuals.  to people who do drag they are intentionally creating an illusion, the point is being a man in a dress.  for ts's that's the antithesis of how we want to be seen.  but it's an image that is out there and more animated and outrageous and powerful then we are and yet we are tagged with the that image.  it's something we have to learn to live with.  we don't have to be brilliant to see that...those of us who are in transition know all about it, we live it every day.  it's an image we have to live down.

but, i would never suggest that drag is illigitimate.  it is not.  the fact that it is a problem for me is my problem, they have every right to live their lives as they see fit.

and so we go back to the antithesis thing.  illusion vs. reality.  neither is illigitimate, but they are different.  different at their core.

men and women are different.  there are many men i admire and respect and even love, but i don't love them because they are like me, i love them because they are good as what they are.  acknowledging difference is the only way we can truly respect diversity.  making us all the same isn't celebrating our diversity, it's congealing it, conveluting it into misunderstanding.  just as there are many, many black people i admire and respect.  i don't admire and respect them because they are black, but because they are good people.  and i would never, never try to tell them about their experience as blacks in our culture.  i love that they are them and i am me.  what i love best is when we all admire and respect each other while fully understanding and appreciating our differences.

that old stevie wonder and paul mccartney song makes so much sense, and not just about black and white, but about all different people, "ebony and ivory".

so yes, i like being in a diverse group.  there is something each of us can add to the whole.  i think we can do that best by not telling others how they should or should not be or think, but share what we think and acknowledge it as ours.  own it.  respect is a two way street, if it isn't reciprecal it will pot hole up and fall apart.i hope we can share our experiences with others without judgement or saying my way is better then yours.  that's the kind of group i like being among, and for the most part that's the kind of people i've found here at susan's.

so maybe as i told tasha the other day, sometimes a blow up can be a good thing.  maybe we all can clear the air and take a look at how we treat each other and see if that's really how we want to do it.

peace to you all.

[lady amarant]

Getting back to the original question, instead of saying "No Crossdressers Allowed," why not just say "this group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

Wing Walker earlier asked what I had meant by giving power to a group by banning them. This is kinda what I meant. By defining very clearly what the scope of a group is, YOU control what happens there, because everybody enters the group implicitly agreeing to that definition. If they step outside that definition and become inappropriate or disrespectful, the other members of the group are completely within their rights to ask you to leave.

The alternative really boils down to profiling and stereotyping, and we've all been on the receiving end of that. People act inappropriately for many reasons, as often fear and bravado as everything else. A TS who has only ever been exposed to "loud CD's" will most likely adopt a similar attitude, until given a forum in which to observe and learn differently. I never knew the difference between CD and TS growing up. I was ignorant and uninformed, and because my community adopted the attitude that people dressing up as members of the opposite sex and who wanted to be members of the opposite sex were sinful, sick or just plain evil, I adopted those attitudes, internalised them against myself, and shut down. It was only because I got out of that environment when I went to university and had the opportunity to learn about and understand diversity that I began to become more accepting, and it was only on a different continent, when I went to Taiwan, that I had the guts to start accepting myself as different, and that only because I had broadband and was lucky enough to live in one of the most diverse cities I've yet come across - Taipei.

We forget that people are not always what they appear, and even when they kinda are, they may have surprising and wonderful things in them. By excluding we run the risk of missing people. By including narrowly, by welcoming everybody, BUT by making sure that they understand very clearly what the scope of your group/venue/whatever is, kinda as Kate describes, the chances of missing people who may really need help, but ended up "falling in" with a different group 'cause it was all they knew, or who act with bravado to hide fear and ignorance, we may just end up being much more support than we would've been.

The only thing I would change in Kate's approach is to also describe what we mean by transition, because even today, not everybody knows what that is, or that it's even possible.

~Simone.

[Wing Walker]

Welcome to the jungle
We take it day by day
If you want it you're gonna bleed
But it's the price you pay
And you're a very sexy girl
That's very hard to please
You can taste the bright lights
But you won't get them for free
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Feel my, my, my serpentine
I, I wanna hear you scream


I did a year as a girl, found out that it was too much, I wanted at least 1/4 of the time as a guy.  Its better to find that out now, then later.

[cindybc]

I started out as a CD but for some reason I know hate that thought. We need to allow for interaction between everyone so that people can discover more about themselves.

Alice

Alice,  I believe I was one of those in this board who was there to extend my hand to you.

this group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

~Kate~

I quite agree Kate hon.

I never knew the difference between CD and TS growing up. I was ignorant and uninformed, and because my community adopted the attitude that people dressing up as members of the opposite sex and who wanted to be members of the opposite sex were sinful, sick or just plain evil, I adopted those attitudes, internalised them against myself, and shut down.

~Simone.

My experience from before I even knew what the word transsexual meant I heard those same horrid things and for many years repressed everything inside. I quite agree with, do I know what transitioning means? Well it's what you feel, think and believe with conviction who you truly are and nothing can dissuade you to be otherwise. I have left a pretty good long list of my thoughts and feeling on my personal transitioning all over this board and I ain't goin back to fetch them. At least to my way of thinking is you better know or you will end up one lost puppy. But then who am I to say where the dividing line is, I am only the door keep to this business. 

Cindy the door keep.

[lady amarant]

My experience from before I even knew what the word transsexual meant I heard those same horrid things and for many years repressed everything inside. I quite agree with, do I know what transitioning means? Well it's what you feel, think and believe with conviction who you truly are and nothing can dissuade you to be otherwise. I have left a pretty good long list of my thoughts and feeling on my personal transitioning all over this board and I ain't goin back to fetch them. At least to my way of thinking is you better know or you will end up one lost puppy. But then who am I to say where the dividing line is, I am only the door keep to this business. 

Oh, I knew from like 5 that I was definitely, entirely female, but I also became convinced there was something horribly, terribly wrong with me and promptly tried real hard NOT to feel that way. I did not know about transition, and the few transgendered people I came across were "men who lived as women" in tabloid magazines, in a country where you could still get chucked in jail or whipped for being gay till about 1990. People's situations differ Cindy, their access to information differs, and how they react to it differs. I know who I am, and am not lost.

~Simone.

[pennyjane]

this group exists to support those in transition?" Then you don't have to get into all this political argument about who is and isn't a "Real TS" and all that.

the question of what is a "real" ts is not for public consumption.  this is a matter best left between oneself and most trusted confidants.  spouse, sibling, parent, therapist, pastor or very good friend.  a "real" ts is someone who believes themselves to be ts.  i don't think we can or even should get into that discussion.  i just don't see how one can be real or false.  it's kind of like being pregnant, you can't be just somewhat so...you are either transsexual or you are not.

of course, those of us who are old enough have spent years and years in confusion, not knowing if we were anything at all, except just being crazy.  yes, there were times in my past when i was happy with thinking of myself as a latent crossdresser.  that's what i wanted to think and that's what i made myself believe, it seemed somewhat less crazy to me then transsexual, and something it seemed to me i could have more control over.  submitting myself to my transsexualism took alot of humility and loss of control.  when i self-identified in that manner for all intents and purposes that's what i was.  i don't think it was anybody's business to tell me that..."no, you are a transsexual."  even though they may have been right i wouldn't have believed them and probably wouldn't have liked very much their imposing their reality on mine.  it probably would have just left me more adament in my own beliefs.  i had to discover myself for myself.

[cindybc]

Hi Simone.
I do agree hon to each his own and each of us had to find their own way to accept who they are. For a long time I thought I was a TV because that was the only one i was familiar with and I certainly didn't want anyone to know. Even when I first heard of Christine Jorgensen I remember thinking to myself that she was a transvestite that had gone one step to far. That was how well informed I was. About the lost puppy statement it was meant for whom ever has any doubts they should take their time to rethink what they are about to do, that is not just a game. And yes we all travel different trails to get to where we want to go.

Cindy the door keep