Atheist Prayer

[Natasha]

Atheist Prayer

Our brains which art in our heads,
treasured by thy name, thy reasoning
come.  Thy best you can be do be done
On earth as it is.  Give us this day new
insight to help us resolve conflicts and ease pain.
And let us not into supernatural explanations;
Deliver us from denial of logic; for thine is the kingdom
of reason; and even though thy powers are limited
And you're not always glorious,
You're the best evolutionary adaptation
We have for helping this earth now and forever
And ever
So be it!

[tinkerbell]

You know, there is this doctor at work who calls herself "an Atheist".  However, she does pray before she enters the OR.  She mumbles something, closes her eyes and looks upwards.

Who do Atheists pray to?  I was under the impression that Atheists didn't look to an invisible, mystical, supernatural being to help get them out of whatever it is that is troubling them.   I thought they looked to themselves, their family, and their friends for support.  Strange, eh?

tink

[Arch]

You know, there is this doctor at work who calls herself "an Atheist".  However, she does pray before she enters the OR.  She mumbles something, closes her eyes and looks upwards.tink

Not strange. This isn't necessarily praying. I don't pray, but I sometimes "talk myself up" before doing something challenging or stressful. I don't look upward, though. I suspect that some people look upward because it gives them a sense of connection with the cosmos, or something. Or it could be habit.

Have you asked her about this practice--respectfully, of course?

[tinkerbell]

Have you asked her about this practice--respectfully, of course?

No, I haven't but rumors have it that she prays in the OR while she is assisting or performing surgery as well.  And no, in this case, I don't think she is talking to "herself".  I will ask around on Monday to be sure!  >

tink

[Sephirah]

There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole", which I presume to mean that it's one thing to be atheistic when you can afford to be philosophical about the subject in relative comfort and safety. But when your life is in danger, or someone else's life is in danger, that philosophy often tends to go out the window. After all, what do you have to lose?

It takes a certain degree of single-minded determination to stick to atheism and not become agnostic, especially if/when that belief overrides the self-preservation instinct (in this case "please, God, if you're up there... I don't wanna die!").

[Arch]

There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole", which I presume to mean that it's one thing to be atheistic when you can afford to be philosophical about the subject in relative comfort and safety. But when your life is in danger, or someone else's life is in danger, that philosophy often tends to go out the window. After all, what do you have to lose?

For myself, I have always felt that Pascal's Wager ("what do you have to lose") does not take into consideration those forms of self-respect, self-reliance, and personal responsibility that are fully predicated on the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined. I would be supremely disgusted with myself if I tossed out my carefully reasoned atheism in a stressful or even life-threatening situation. No, more than disgusted: contemptuous.

Mind you, other people can believe what they will. But if after all these years my own...I'll call it a belief system--if it cracks open just because some hoodlum points a gun at me, then my entire character is severely diminished. I feel that it's the extraordinary circumstances that show us what we're really made of.

If I ever find myself in a foxhole, I hope M. Pascal finds another one to haunt. I admire his math but not his philosophy.

This post is not meant to denigrate any non-atheists, by the way. You all do what works for you, and I do what works for me.

[Kimberly]

There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole",

Sadly that is about what I found out when my grandfather was ill. I prayed. Pissed me of something royal that I did too.  That was probably the start of unravelling my world view I suppose.

the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined.

I totally mean no offense an lets call this a difference of opinion but LOL.
I woke up with a goddess near this morn so, yeah. (No, last night was NOT a good night, at all. In anyway shape or form.)

[Kaitlyn]

There are plenty of atheists in foxholes.  Even if there weren't, praying to God doesn't make him real.

For myself, I have always felt that Pascal's Wager ("what do you have to lose") does not take into consideration those forms of self-respect, self-reliance, and personal responsibility that are fully predicated on the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined. I would be supremely disgusted with myself if I tossed out my carefully reasoned atheism in a stressful or even life-threatening situation. No, more than disgusted: contemptuous.

Don't forget Pascal's plan for making yourself believe in God - go through the motions until you've been brainwashed!  That doesn't sound very honest or spiritual to me. 

the position that there is overwhelmingly insufficient evidence of any kind of deity as he/she/it is generally defined.

I totally mean no offense an lets call this a difference of opinion but LOL.

I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that there's lots of evidence that a deity or deities exist?  I'd love to hear more about that if you're up for a bit of friendly argument...

**grins eagerly**

[Kimberly]

I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that there's lots of evidence that a deity or deities exist?  I'd love to hear more about that if you're up for a bit of friendly argument...

**grins eagerly**

I am saying that I believe that the "evidence" is there. Whether generic you sees it or not is something else. But, you have to understand I've had "voices" and such all of my life (quick quick someone call a shrink!), so the concept of "life as normal" isn't very "normal" to me. That said I personally find there to be evidence out there, but I do think most if not all of that can be "discarded" if one wishes. So it ends up, if you don't want to see it, there isn't evidence and (generic) you get to be justified, an if you do see evidence, well, (generic) you still gets to be justified. ^*shrug* It isn't my plan.

So, friendly argument? .. How about a new thread?

[Natasha]

i grew up in a christian family, but i'm atheist because all the evidence points to the fact that god and gods of all varieties are fictional; attempts by "believers" to explain the world around them. we no longer need to resort to "god did it" as an explanation for the natural world. to be sure there are still gaps in our knowledge, and you can fill in those gaps with god if you like...many people do.  atheists clearly do not.

atheists don't believe in souls either.  there is very likely no such thing as a "spirit"  that survives this life.  what we call the "self" is completely a physical, brain based phenomenon.  when the brain dies, so do we. so no god, no reincarnation, no life everlasting of any kind. one life is all we get.

Who do Atheists pray to?  I was under the impression that Atheists didn't look to an invisible, mystical, supernatural being to help get them out of whatever it is that is troubling them.   I thought they looked to themselves, their family, and their friends for support.  Strange, eh?

tink

ya that's weird. atheists don't pray.  when i'm anxious, hurt, or anything else, i just remind myself that the best is yet to come, and remain optimistic that this feeling of anxiety shall soon be gone.  however, i usually turn to myself for guidance and answers, and i also turn to my most trusted advisors (family, older/mature friends) for guidance and advice.

ya, atheists have their fill and share of hard moments too, yet we just deal with them as they come, and we do just fine. i'll admit that it's probably harder to deal with such problems without a faith of some sort, but we wake up, remind ourselves to breath, and that it's only a day, and anyone can get through that.

[tinkerbell]

ya that's weird. atheists don't pray.  when i'm anxious, hurt, or anything else, i just remind myself that the best is yet to come, and remain optimistic that this feeling of anxiety shall soon be gone.  however, i usually turn to myself for guidance and answers, and i also turn to my most trusted advisors (family, older/mature friends) for guidance and advice.

ya, atheists have their fill and share of hard moments too, yet we just deal with them as they come, and we do just fine. i'll admit that it's probably harder to deal with such problems without a faith of some sort, but we wake up, remind ourselves to breath, and that it's only a day, and anyone can get through that.

Yes, I thought so! Thanks very much for explaining, Katia. On a funny note, where do wizards, witches, and people that predict the future go, huh?    Heaven, hell, or is there a place in between?



tink

[Natasha]

On a funny note, where do people that predict the future go, huh?    Heaven, hell, or is there a place in between?



tink

heh! they go where we all go. nowhere. but seriously i believe that people can develop their senses and perceptive abilities to extraordinary degrees.  it's fairly well established that most people subvocalize their "silent" thoughts. also, the ability to catalog, retain and examine minutiae might allow such a person to "predict" events because of a multitude of tiny clues overlooked by the less skilled observer.

so, no, i don't believe that people can peer into a crystal ball or a cup of tealeaves and tell you what to wear to the ball next saturday, but i do believe that there are levels of perception above and beyond what most of us use on a day to day basis.
put another way, i believe some people have a "keen five senses." & you're one of them. that's why we're friends

[Arch]

but seriously i believe that people can develop their senses and perceptive abilities to extraordinary degrees.  it's fairly well established that most people subvocalize their "silent" thoughts. also, the ability to catalog, retain and examine minutiae might allow such a person to "predict" events because of a multitude of tiny clues overlooked by the less skilled observer.

"Mark my words, that squirrel will go up the chimney some day!" (Agatha Christie's grandmother accurately predicted the future actions of a captive squirrel. Loosely paraphrased from memory, so don't quote me on it. When I was a kid, I was crazy about Christie's autobiography.) 

[Sephirah]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." ~William Shakespeare. "Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5

I'll leave it there. People are entitled to their beliefs, whatever those may be. Personally, I don't believe parapsychology to be fake, nor metaphysics to be so easily explainable.

But that isn't really anything to do with atheism. At least not in the traditional definition of the word.

[Arch]

Personally, I don't believe parapsychology to be fake, nor metaphysics to be so easily explainable.

Well, James Randi hasn't parted with his money, so that's not a very good plug for the parapsychologists. Still, there's always science fiction for those of us who like to dream.

[umop ap!sdn]

I've been known to say "FSM I hope x doesn't happen" but it's pretty much just a figure of speech. My first reaction to the OP of this thread was wow, I really like that - I think I'm going to write it down and keep it around my desk somewhere!

atheists don't believe in souls either.  there is very likely no such thing as a "spirit"  that survives this life.  what we call the "self" is completely a physical, brain based phenomenon.  when the brain dies, so do we. so no god, no reincarnation, no life everlasting of any kind. one life is all we get.

Well most of us don't; strictly speaking an atheist is one who lacks belief in a god, regardless of belief or non-belief in other "supernatural" entities. But we have formed a subculture that encompasses all these related logic-based beliefs and most of us fit in there. I myself am undecided on spirituality, I guess the best way to put it would be I think your statement is probably true but I hope it isn't.

[Constance]

So, are theists delusional then?

[Kaitlyn]

Yes, theists are delusional.  However, everyone is delusional in some way - it's a side effect of human cognition.  So it might be better said that theism is a delusion.  I'm not trying to offend anyone, but faith (as commonly construed) is just an emotionally laden term for a persistent belief held in the absence of - or opposition to - the evidence.  Since that belief is false as well, you've got the textbook definition of delusion.

Now, I'm not passing some kind of value judgment on people - at least, no more so than I would with any other false belief.  I'm just stating the logical corollary to atheism.  The only way out of theism being a delusion is to change the meaning of the word "faith".

I'm sure I have delusions too - but I can't tell you what they are.  If I knew about them, they wouldn't be delusions.

[Constance]

But, where is the proof that the belief is false?

[Kaitlyn]

That's for another thread - though I will say that my thoughts on that issue are heavily influenced by George H. Smith's book Atheism - The Case Against God.  It's the best all-around refutation of theism and supernaturalism I've ever seen.