gender assignment

[solosusan]

I grew up with non-classical CAH and found myself basically turning into a boy between birth and 12 years.  Each year I got stronger and more muscular, and a better leader and ball player in my crowd of boys.  In  that culture girls were not allowed to play sports in general and it was illegal to allow girls to run in high school.  Long before that I had dismissed any thoughts of being a girl and had moved on to the life I preferred.  Although my genitalia was not changing radically at all, my feelings and attitudes were fully male otherwise.  I was a natural leader and we had no fights while I was in charge of my neighborhood gang.  The idea that girls were so tightly controlled just fell out of my mind because it was so easy for me to move into the boy realm.  I was very happy there learning, growing, developing skills and getting respect every day from my friends. When at 12 I was forced by parents and school to conform to the girls world and I lost my freedom, I simply planned to dump this whole culture at the earliest opportunity - which I did by moving to Berkeley CA a few years later in '64 and taking up an intersex attitude.  I used to say I was a boy blessed with a female body.  In my own opinion a 'real' boy would not rush to get rid of female body and I resolved to respect my own.  However the culture is so unfair to women and they turn into such oppressed people it would be no surprise if anyone wanted to get rid of the female body even a full female.  I work every day to break down stereotypes and stand up for women everywhere- which I notice I'm doing more than most females.  I hope to grow more so that I can reclaim all the respect my female body is due - especially because I feel like a male - as a male I want to protect and defend my womanhood.

As a male I honestly cannot believe what women put up with including often getting rid of things like eyebrows - something most males would not tolerate because the facial expression then is emptier and less serious.  But females think things like this are normal.  Doesn't this mean a whole lot of people are using 'cultural' norms for females rather than natural biological traits?  Doesn't this mean that many men and women believe all you have to do to be a 'real' women is trivialize yourself? How can 'women' with whatever genitals claim this artificial behavior as feminine?   As far as I'm concerned I'm the 'real' women - with my eyebrows, muscles, frank, no-nonsense demands on men, and all else.  I have four daughters too - one adopted, and while I was breast feeding and all the rest, have shared male standards for achievement and behavior with all of them.   They do none of the oppressed things other women do and all of them have little trouble accomplishing on a higher level than most women - my conclusion is - we do not know as a culture what women are in the first place.  At the same time - I see no men who take up being a woman so they can be a nun.  It's always about make-up and other junk that's not biologically even female, or you have to prove that to me scientifically first at a any rate.  Could it be that many men are really what they think women are?  Weak, covered with make-up - swinging their hips etc is maybe what some percentage of men would be in any given group of men?  If men define women - and they do - are they simply projecting what many of them will always be  - weak and  trivial - onto women?  In any 100 men how many did Mother Nature endow with masculinity?  I believe women are far more masculine by nature than many men, and better, clearer, and more serious leaders - if any person out there with a penis really wants to be a women I think you better start with getting it straight that 'we' are not just trivialized versions of men, it's not about make-up, or about being passive sexually, or any stuff like that - it's about leadership and strength and being one with Mother Nature.  Thanks.

[Rachael]

Interesting ideas, and i do agree with a fair few... but wheres th removing eyebrows bit? :S ive never seen that... Style yes, remove? eep? weird imo. A lot of transwomen do project the male view of femininity, which is ok by them, but when said m2fs claim to be feminist i cant but shake my head.... There are a lot of 'real' women amungst transwomen, and a lot of transwomen who WANT to be real women, but have simply no basis to go by... the male view is all they see and all they can live by... I'd not blame them, just the culture that stops them learning what being a woman really is. I think that would change things. There is deffinately a culture of false femininity amungst the trans community... that much is fact.

Nice ideas solosusan...

Rachael (also IS)

[Seshatneferw]

At the same time - I see no men who take up being a woman so they can be a nun.

Except perhaps for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. But yes, most of the religions that have nuns don't look very favourably to people who cross gender boundaries. Then again, there are lots of people born men who transition to being women in male-dominated professions.

It's always about make-up and other junk that's not biologically even female, or you have to prove that to me scientifically first at a any rate.

It's not always that, of course. Even so, people are different, and the ways their gender issues manifest are different as well. Some are more concerned with the physical body, some with gender roles, some with gender presentation and so on. Issues like passing matter too: it's easy to feel that one has to go pretty fare in the feminine scale in order to be seen as female.

If men define women - and they do - are they simply projecting what many of them will always be  - weak and  trivial - onto women?  In any 100 men how many did Mother Nature endow with masculinity?  I believe women are far more masculine by nature than many men, and better, clearer, and more serious leaders

I may well be misreading what you write here. Still, the impression I get is that you see masculinity as natural, strong and something to strive after and femininity as artificial, weak and something to abandon. This is simply something I cannot agree with. Looking back at my life, I cannot see any particular value in my attempts to walk without swinging my hips (abandoning that pretence seems to have relieved the mysterious intermittent knee pains I had since early teens) or in dressing in baggy combinations of blue and grey essentially out of fear of looking too pretty. As for being a serious leader, I firmly believe that what femininity I have, and my refusal to pretend to more masculinity than I have, made my brief term as a military officer more successful than it would have been otherwise, even if it also steered me to other career choices.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that femininity is by itself no worse -- and no better -- than masculinity, and likewise overdoing femininity is no worse than overdoing masculinity. If necessary, I'm willing to prove it on your body with an épée in my manicured hand.

  Nfr

[Kaelin]

There's a couple things you are hitting at, and they should probably be handled separately: gender roles and gender identity.  Gender roles dictate what you think about what people of each gender should do.  These attitudes can be very "traditional" (maybe Victorian-era upper class), where men were supposed to be responsible for everything outside the house, and women were responsible for things inside the house and shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about anything else.  Of course, your attitudes may take another extreme, where there are no gender roles whatsoever, than all people (regardless of gender) should behave according to merits, personal ability, and personal interest; these people *may* still believe in gender.  I, personally, happen to take on the latter attitude, but many have opinions that fall somewhere between the two.

Gender identity is simply the gender one feels to be.  It can be female, male, or perhaps something else.  However, it's probably fair to say that one's attitude toward gender roles shapes one's perception of oneself *according to* what the person thinks their gender is, although a somewhat disturbing possibility is that sometimes people think these things are used *to determine* what one's own gender is.

The one thing I can say definitely based on your comments Soulsusan is that that you hold great contempt for gender roles, or at least the female role.  You want people to be their best, and gender should not affect that.  You happen to find that the virtues lie in male stereotypes (and when you were young, this was perhaps pretty close to true -- although caring for your children so carefully isn't exactly the masculine stereotype), but other good ones seem to lie elsewhere: compassion, patience, and cooperation.  At least me, the answer isn't about striving to hold masculine values to be my best, but simply striving to be my best.

[solosusan]

Hi = thanks so much for answering the post.  I'm confused when you say I don't like the 'female' gender role.  Are you trying to say I don't like the female gender?  Or gender role?  Because 'female gender' is a monolithic and global concept that refers to biology - no matter how much we debate the ultimate application of this biology and its permutations.  On the other hand, as you yourself pointed out - 'female gender role' can mean anything at all according to time and place.  To this end I feel my job now, as I said, is to reclaim myself not just as a 'female,' but within a  'female gender role.'   I'm going to accomplish this by rewriting 'female gender role' so it duplicates most of the 'male gender role,' not because it's male, duh, but because it contains the proper amount of dignity and opportunity. You immediately wrote and said you saw me as wanting to play the 'male gender role.'   No - I do not want to be male, nor do I 'want to be in a male gender role,'  even if I pointed out that I've been forced to.  As I said  - I am going to be whatever I am and call it a 'female gender role.  My 'female gender role' includes the following:  Stern, strong, aggressive, creative, thoughtful, dignified, empathic, natural, physically fit, logical, feminine and sweet.  Ok?  Possibly my 'male gender role' would include those traits, but though that itself might confirm your point that I'm on the extreme end of defining the genders as similar, nevertheless 'traits,' themselves are not all there is to gender.  Identifying with the group as a whole - male group or female group - is part of the process, and since women as a whole aren't following my personal definition of 'female gender role' I couldn't identify with them if I wanted to, so there is no group of females for me, only males.  At present my list of female gender role qualities is perceived as mostly a 'male' list; men actually like the idea of throwing sweetness into the pot because another value I forgot to mention that a male often holds dear is being open-minded and a good sport.  Whether they actually are like that or not on any given day, one can appeal to those values.  Women might think being a good sport is important but confuse it with jealousy because as I have observed it they've been brainwashed into thinking in dumb stereotypes.  I mean they might reject the stereotype consciously but it doesn't take much to see that every healthy impulse has some kind of bad stereotype attached and most women just internalize that bad idea wholesale.  Women may not have the confidence to proceed with maverick changes because of this as well as external oppression. They're also turned off by 'aggression' for instance - and that's a shame because there will be no new 'female gender role ' until that quality gets into play.   I've seen women over and over be tempted into harassing me, or tampering with me just because they get the idea of healthy competition from seeing me take men on and come out well, but censor themselves immediately, and instead take up a 'male' (their idea of male) role to condemn me. (Men don't usually condemn me so much.) My 'female' character list is closer to a man's commonplace sense of manhood than to a woman's commonplace idea of womanhood.  I can influence men where women are very proud of being impervious to my influence, so that many men become stronger, healthier and more accomplished just by knowing me, while women usually either fade away in a fit of pique, or actually harass me for my trouble - thus making fools of themselves to add to the sadness of it all.  The only females who've benefited from me are my daughters.   The rest waste my time trying to undermine or diminish me. Men, by the way, see it all - see how women turn down my help and direction, and are only too glad to jump in and take it.  After all they are men and have been granted first class status, pay and opportunity - I can't imagine first class citizens turning down so much sound help such as I provide.   I reach out and offer stuff - men will stop the show, put everything down and really wake up when they're offered advice or guidance on my level - but women ALWAYS walk away.   They've been trained to, much to the delight and satisfaction of men.  Anyway as I said I am now following my new improved female gender role of being exactly who I was before but now I'm taking over the female sex and making new rules    Thanks

[Kaelin]

Because 'female gender' is a monolithic and global concept that refers to biology - no matter how much we debate the ultimate application of this biology and its permutations.

I will run through a list of the way we (and the academic community for that matter) refer to a few key terms.  The working definition we have is that one's "sex" refers to biology.  "Gender" refers to how one identifies.  "Gender roles" are, as defined by Wikipedia, "a set of perceived behavioral norms associated particularly with males or females, in a given social group or system."  Naturally, these roles vary between societies.  In the US, a couple of the (mainstream) expectations and restrictions may read as so:

Female: Empathetic and caretaker of children, cannot play pro football
Male: Strong and holds a job, cannot wear dresses

Sort of the essense of these gender roles is that they compel (with varying degrees of force) women and men to behave differently, perhaps against their own individual (biological) nature.

I'm going to accomplish this by rewriting 'female gender role' so it duplicates most of the 'male gender role,' not because it's male, duh, but because it contains the proper amount of dignity and opportunity. ... My 'female gender role' includes the following:  Stern, strong, aggressive, creative, thoughtful, dignified, empathic, natural, physically fit, logical, feminine and sweet.  Ok?  Possibly my 'male gender role' would include those traits, but though that itself might confirm your point that I'm on the extreme end of defining the genders as similar, nevertheless 'traits,' themselves are not all there is to gender.

My take is that you're saying that females should behave in productive ways, and that males should behave in productive ways.

There are a handful of things that males and females have to do differently.  I mean, their roles in sexual reproduction are different, and that has other effects like excluding females from being sperm donors, and excludes males from being wet nurses.

Outside of issues of that nature, I don't think the expectations for each gender (a.k.a. gender roles) should be different.  I don't know if you feel there should be more restrictions beyond that.

At any rate, I argue from the standpoint of doing away with gender roles, and you may be arguing from the standpoint of having both gender roles to be roughly the same and geared towards women and men being good and productive people (and based on your response, this pulls more from the stereotypical male set than the female set).  In that event, you say tomato, I say tomato...

[whatsername]

I will run through a list of the way we (and the academic community for that matter) refer to a few key terms.  The working definition we have is that one's "sex" refers to biology.  "Gender" refers to how one identifies.  "Gender roles" are, as defined by Wikipedia, "a set of perceived behavioral norms associated particularly with males or females, in a given social group or system."

To expand on the definition of "gender" just a bit (also using my personal understanding from academia), it refers to how one not only conceptualizes of themself but perhaps more importantly to this particular discussion how one performs a masculine or feminine or somewhere in between identity.

I find myself identifying a lot with what you're saying solosusan.  I never identified as male, or even as a masculine women, but as a tomboy, which had it's own connotations and a rather specifically masculine performance, when I was growing up, right through my mid-teenage years (for full disclosure I am a cissexual female).  At this point in my life I have far more language to articulate exactly how I see myself, and it is most definitely a blend of masculinity and femininity.

If I am reading you correctly, I agree with a lot of what you're saying in regards to the socially accepted female gender role, and I think you're pretty successfully deconstructing certain behaviors by extremely feminine identified females (like eyebrow plucking which I agree "softens" the face and leads to a less serious expression).  These are behaviors I too have had an extremely conflicted relationship with though in a different way than you I think.  At points in my life not being able to understand them at all, to performing them, and then to feeling rather indifferent to or constrained by the expectations and thus rejecting them again.

Again if I am reading you correctly I too feel there is a rather lack of understanding of the broad range of behaviors inherent to female bodied people.  But I think the same is true for male bodied people.  Society has decreed that our bodies determine our gender roles and while females have more options of masculine/feminine expression open to them than men we are still conceived of as having one "true" gender expression; feminine.  To say that is frustrating for me as well would be a dramatic understatement.  To be a human being is to have masculinity and femininity possible within you, with individuals variations on where exactly you fall in that spectrum of identity and behavior.  As a slightly more masculine identified cissexual female I too hope to change what people perceive as "womanly" to something that allows more of us to understand being "productive", "aggressive", etc. as just as womanly as being nurturing or passive.

I'm also with you on the noting of jealousy and passive-aggressive behavior among women.  It seems to me that femininity has been rather perverted by the hetero-patriarchy into a construction which encourages us to reduce our power and to pick at or destroy each other to achieve acceptance and approval from it.  I don't know if we know right now what a "natural femininity" really looks like, though in my opinion feminists and goddess spiritualists have been trying to figure that out for a good four decades now.  In the end I think it will be slightly different for every person, but it certainly seems to me that femininity has been highly manipulated by current power structures to keep those power structure in power.

On that note, I also agree with you Kaelin that gender roles need to be done away with or at the very least heavily revised so that they apply not to the sexes but perhaps to those people who are masculine or feminine identified.

[Northern Jane]

At the same time - I see no men who take up being a woman so they can be a nun.

First I don't consider I was ever "a man" but I did transition to be able to live in harmony with myself. I DID at one point consider becoming a Nun and went as far as numerous meeting with the Mother Superior. Since I was in my mid-20's she suggested I wait.

I do, from time to time, "femme it up" but that is for myself, not anyone else. I have been living my life in harmony for 35 years and many women over the years have told me how they idolize me and what I have done for pushing the "stereotype boundaries" without selling out femininity. Women can be women without being fluffy and weak. Most of the women I know (GGs) are incredibly strong and focused and are nobody's door mat.

[Pariah]

I is One-Hun-Dred percent biological MALE, and I agree with most everything you have just said..except the nun part...the equivilant of that is the "father" or "pastor" of the church. I think. I need to brush up on religious studies. 

Women are strong leaders, and in many cases are more "masculine" than men...heck, child birth scares me AND many of my female friends (who still want children someday.) And as for the whole "to be female you have to trivialize yourself" part, that's a bunch of bull (the concept, not what you said) But these things are what we perceive in our society; girls and women should be weak, sub-serviant, needy, incompetant (as in not AS mentaly competant as males) and have no defining internal intangible or emotional/intellectual qualities. I guess you're thinking "what do you know about it? You've never been on the other side of the tracks." True, but I grew up in a NEARLY female-exclusive home, and I couldn't help but hear about the daily struggles that were encountered.

I'm not as eloquent as the people who answered before me, so I'll try my best to finish up decently. Well, while most everything you said is the case, there is also the self-perception of what it MEANS to be ANYTHING. Some women feel that it's quite neccessary to appear helpless or dolled up because that's how THEY perceive femininity (though msot of the time this isn't the case.) Some men perceive masculinity as conviction and moral strength, regardless of emotional state or physical appearance. Some people, like "whatsername" stated, are in a "catogory" to themselves with its own implications or have a customized view of gender. And for the record, I think the whole women as leaders thing is right. I forgot which comedian said it but "God must be a man...cause there's no way a woman would *bleep* up like this!" He said it, not me!

And by your definition, I must be a young woman already..heck, I LOVE everything about nature (except spiders..gah!), I can be a leader when I need to (though I prefer the shadows, attention suits me poorly) and my strength is long-lasting (Iron will =/= iron muscles XD)

I feel like I missed posting something important in this, but oh well.   

[cindybc]

Hi Solosusan hon, first I want to welcome you to Susan' s. I found this thread kind of late to comment about and still need to read some of the other comments. I will give my 2 cents for now, I am quite interested in a lot of your views. I have been thinking about what you proposed for some time now, but have never got around to beginning anything, or probably waiting for a cue to start.

This was something along the same line I have been thinking about what you proposed for some time now, but have never got around to beginning anything, or probably waiting for a cue to start.

I realy believe that trans-women truly are in need of some enlightenment about how to feel think and how to express their thoughts, perceptions and feelings like a women. To express what is within their own being, the psychological processes as well as physical and spiritual, and not just from the male perspective as to what they believe it is to be like a women, but to know and feel how to live and feel within like a woman, to actually feel another's feelings like they were your own.

My sisters could be spared so many problems once they have reached their goal of having the physical appearance of a women. What good is it to find yourself fully developed like a woman and not have any clue as to what being a woman is all about? Then only to find out they weren't ready or prepared for this change and discovering that they were only seeing what being a female was from the male frame of reference.

*Orientation, before experimentation* even though I had some advantages through the years of learning first hand from other women friends, sisters, mother, it is not the same as having experienced life first hand as a woman.. I still had a lot to learn and experience There were a lot of trials and struggles for me in crossing that line. Crossing that line is permanent there is no returning or retreating.

Even after 9 years I am still learning, I don't believe it will ever be an end to this process of learning and growing, not even for a cisgendered woman all their lives to grow up being who they are at the same age I find myself, who am I to think I could do it in 9 years as a woman. We all are in a process of growing an learning until we are 6 ft under and pushing up daisies, and even then it may find afterward that it is still a continuous part of evolution.

Cindy

I pray you stick around for a while. I have a feeling that most of the girls here are realy nice and a long ways from being dumb could still benefit from one such as you. So how would you like to be our teacher? 

Cindy

[cindybc]

Hi Emme, thank you for your come back , yes I agree with you that we can learn from both TS and GG's. GG's was where I got most of my education, just by silently listening and observing. I have also many good women friends the very ones that helped me find my way off the street and get gainfully employed working as a social worker for 22years. Now today it is my turn to repay those who took me in when I was lost. I work with women who work the streets.

But even after all that I have learned, I am quite aware of the fact that I will never learn all there is to know about being a woman, especially when it takes a woman my age a life time to learn. How can I possibly learn a life time of experience in a mere 9 years? I can only share what I do know, and what I have learned, and experienced, and hope that in some way it will enlighten others.

I suppose that in our own way we are all teachers unto each other. Anyway, you have probably heard my story several times already. I still find new discoveries and learn new things within myself every day, things I never knew were there before. Amazing what the subconscious mind picks up then stores for later reference for the conscious mind to use. I would like to know more about you, hon. Just curious is all. What happened to you leading up to 7 years old and after?

Cindy