Anyone else think we were supposed to be our bio sex?

[Just Kate]

Since this is the non-op forum, I'm sure I might get a different response than the general TS forums.  But what do you think? 

Do you feel you were supposed to be your birth sex?

Or do you feel you were supposed to be your perceived brain sex?

Oh, and why?

And uh... how does that affect you need/desire to transition?

Me, for those who read my posts should know this already.  But for the purpose of this topic I'll state it again.  I am a MTF TS.  I feel I was supposed to be a male.  I think all of the available evidence based on my chromosomes, physical attributes, etc all point to male.  I believe I was born with a brain defect that messed up my sense of gender identity.  If my brain were fixed, I'd be a whole male as I feel I should have been.

As for how it affects my transition.  While I know (from personal experience) that transitioning to a female would be a blessing and I feel I'd be happy as one, however, knowing that I wasn't supposed to be a female, I feel I'd be lying to myself and everyone else.  This disinclines me to transition.  Of course, now I just have to learn how to deal with the GID without transitioning.

[Joseph]

It depends on your perspective on "supposed to be".  If (like me) you subscribe to the Christian worldview, then (in extremely simplistic terms) God is sovereign and everything happens for a reason.  Which means I was "supposed to be" female bodied but feeling male, and now I need to figure out what to do about it in a way that is consistent with my relationship with God, and in light of an eternity in heaven where there is no more pain.

Based on my personal experiences, particularly within the context of my relationship with God, I believe my soul is male.  I believe God doesn't "make mistakes" AND that our current world is "fallen" - meaning God allows birth defects to happen.  Considering what we know about intersex issues, I think it is very possible that male souls could end up in female bodies, and vice versa.  I find the argument that God "wouldn't allow that" to be extremely flimsy, particularly since there are many examples in Church history where Christians did or believed stupid things based on their unjustified opinions that God "would" or "wouldn't" allow something.  Perhaps I will be proved wrong in the end, but if there is a gender binary in heaven, I believe I will be male.

Of course, people will point out that there are delusional people who think they are toasters.  Or tigers.  Or some ethnicity that they are not.  That doesn't mean that's who God wants them to be.  True.  But my opinion is that this sort of an argument is a red herring.  I think the validity of each component of your identity should be judged on its own merits.  For example, take the difference between "When I grow up I want to be a painter" with "When I grow up I want to be a pedophile."  Big difference.  So it is with the difference between "When I grow up I want to be a man" and "When I grow up I want to be a toaster."  If there is such a thing as genuine right and genuine wrong, then some natural inclinations can be celebrated, and some need to be repressed.  Your worldview determines which is which.  In the context of my Christian worldview, there seems to be nothing wrong with my male gender identity, particularly if no one can show me that "God wouldn't allow a male soul to be created in a female body."

In terms of how that affects my need/desire to transition, as of right now I don't think there is anything morally wrong with transitioning.  However, as I explained in another thread (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,58248.msg368078.html#msg368078), I'm not sure that's the right path for me.

By the way, that's just from my Christian worldview.  In a worldview where there is no God or no absolute moral standards, I think I would believe that your sense of self is in the brain, and you should do whatever makes you the happiest.

Oh... and I'm still thinking through this stuff.  These are just my thoughts right now.  I reserve the right to change my opinions. heh.

Joseph

[Zelane]

Sorry for intruding here.

Joseph thats pretty interesting. My views follow the pattern that "god" doesnt make mistakes but "god" isnt ruling on or lives and isnt ruling on how we are born. It just happens.

So the: God why???!!111 its unfair. Well its false. Just part of nature and human diversity. (intersex, TS, etc, etc)


Interealia, can I ask your opinion about your questions regarding intersexed persons?

[Osiris]

Personally... I don't know. I think there's a reason why I was born female but I haven't found out what that is yet. I guess that's part of the reason I've decided against transition. I feel like I need to get all of this sorted out and transition isn't going to do that.

[Just Kate]

Interealia, can I ask your opinion about your questions regarding intersexed persons?

I don't pretend to even know.   I mean, based on my incredibly limited understanding of intersexed conditions - some are males that got mixed up and others are females that got mixed up - but I don't even know if that distinction applies to all conditions.

I only know concerning my own condition and what I've come to terms with.  I myself don't feel I'd be consistent with my beliefs about transitioning if I did.  Many people think they need to transition to be what they were supposed to be, well you can say that I'm _not_ transitioning for the same reason.

[mina.magpie]

We are our minds, not our bodies. If my mind were a different mind, I wouldn't exist, somebody else would. So from that point of view, I'm the only person I can be.

As to whether there's a "supposed to" to it, that depends entirely on one's frame of reference of belief. I happen to believe that evolution produces variation all the time, and that male and female were also "abominations" when they evolved 350-odd million years ago. Sexual reproduction proved very successful though, so we kept it. Yay!

Biological variations can become either benefits, in which case they become the norm, or harmful, in which case they die off eventually, and you can't determine how "useful" a new variation is/was till after the fact. Obviously people coming from other frames of refernce will have a different take on things.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I regard gender variance and intersex as such biological variations.

Mina.

[Just Kate]

We are our minds, not our bodies. If my mind were a different mind, I wouldn't exist, somebody else would. So from that point of view, I'm the only person I can be.

Mina.

We may be our minds, but our minds deceive us - a lot even.  Our memories are reconstructive for instance, not photographic.  The mind of a schizophrenic who believes that the CIA is out to get him has a mind that lies to him.  Is his core identity "a person who believes that the CIA is out to get him", or is his core identity not related to his brain disorder.  I see my GID the same way.  I have a condition that makes my brain lie to me.  It tells me I am female when I am clearly not nor was supposed to be.  I do not identify with the lie my brain tells me, no more than I would expect the schizophrenic to either.  Fortunately, the schizophrenic has medication to control his brain, but I do not - so I have to learn other coping techniques.

[Zelane]

Well Interalia I asked because reading your first post here and what you replied. It gives me the feeling you are looking at your answers from a sex (genitalia and secondary) perspective.

When you say what you were meant to be given you birth sex. Now, intersexed conditions are not just what you mentioned. Which actually its incorrect and extremely narrow.

What would you do and think if you were born in the middle? And I mean that your body isnt telling you what sex you should be? One of the things I learned here its that what truly says what your gender is. Its simply your mind, brain, soul, heart. Not your body.


I also believe that its perfectly legit for recognizing GID and not wanting to transition. You seem to have some walls due to your beliefs and actually the most important thing I believe its to be comfortable. So if you can achieve that by not transitioning. Go for it.

[mina.magpie]

We may be our minds, but our minds deceive us - a lot even.  Our memories are reconstructive for instance, not photographic.  The mind of a schizophrenic who believes that the CIA is out to get him has a mind that lies to him.  Is his core identity "a person who believes that the CIA is out to get him", or is his core identity not related to his brain disorder.  I see my GID the same way.  I have a condition that makes my brain lie to me.  It tells me I am female when I am clearly not nor was supposed to be.  I do not identify with the lie my brain tells me, no more than I would expect the schizophrenic to either.  Fortunately, the schizophrenic has medication to control his brain, but I do not - so I have to learn other coping techniques.

Ah, but whereas schizophrenia and psyhopathy, for example, are caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, GID is a structural difference laid down during foetal development. In that it becomes a variation rather than a disorder, a neurological intersex condition, and medication would at best mask or suppress it.

The only way to "fix" it is through modification - either the brain or the body, and since modifying the brain would kill the "you" that you are, essentially erasing the personality we associate with "interalia", even if only partially, I believe that modifying the body to fit the mind is the only ethical and humane option.

Mina.

[Just Kate]

Ah, but whereas schizophrenia and psyhopathy, for example, are caused by chemical imbalance in the brain, GID is a structural difference laid down during foetal development. In that it becomes a variation rather than a disorder, a neurological intersex condition, and medication would at best mask or suppress it.

The only way to "fix" it is through modification - either the brain or the body, and since modifying the brain would destroy the "you" that you are, essentially erasing the personality we associate with "interalia", even if only partially, I believe that modifying the body to fit the mind is the only ethical and humane option.

Mina.


Mina.

Note the emphasis.  I do not believe this.  I read the research done.  There weren't enough subjects to determine this or provide a strong enough correlational factor.  At best, it is still correlational - we have no idea what structures are really involved.  We don't know where "Gender identity" is housed in the brain yet, we are just making our best guesses on where it is based on what we currently understand to be the sexually dimorphic areas of the brain.

But for the sake of argument I feel neither of us will budge on, let's say you are correct and it is a structural mutation (one could argue that the DNA mutation that causes Schizophrenia is also a 'structural' mutation just on a much smaller level) I would still want it fixed.  My body is not messing me up, it is my brain.  Why screw with my body when my brain is broken?  I am not female even if I feel being a female will help me.  I have no business convincing myself I am one.

[imaz]

I simply believe I'm meant to be the way I am and to make the most of it for myself and for others.

Have zero problem reconciling being TS and Muslim as I believe it's better to be TS and a believer than non TS and a non believer.

BTW the CIA are probably out to get us!

[placeholdername]

I don't believe in a "supposed to be".  In my view, we are what we are, whatever that may be.

[Just Kate]

I don't believe in a "supposed to be".  In my view, we are what we are, whatever that may be.

I guess I mean.  Where do you believe the problem is?  In the body or in the brain?  Were you supposed to be a bio female or a bio male had you not had your condition?

[mina.magpie]

But for the sake of argument I feel neither of us will budge on

I think probably yeah.

one could argue that the DNA mutation that causes Schizophrenia is also a 'structural' mutation just on a much smaller level

Well ... it's not good on a social level, but arguably it's a very good survival trait if they really ARE out to get you.

Giggle. Sorry, I'm just stirring.

Mina.

[placeholdername]

I guess I mean.  Where do you believe the problem is?  In the body or in the brain?  Were you supposed to be a bio female or a bio male had you not had your condition?

Well that's where our logic runs into knots -- like I said, I don't believe I was supposed to be one way or the other.  I have the characteristic male anatomy, and yet I feel more comfortable acting and expressing myself in ways that other society views as female/feminine.  I don't perceive myself as having a 'problem'.

My question to you is this: if society and culture (including religion) didn't enforce a relatively strict gender binary (as in no one would comment negatively if you acted feminine despite having male anatomy) -- do you think people in our situation would feel distress just because of that situation?

[Just Kate]

Well that's where our logic runs into knots -- like I said, I don't believe I was supposed to be one way or the other.  I have the characteristic male anatomy, and yet I feel more comfortable acting and expressing myself in ways that other society views as female/feminine.  I don't perceive myself as having a 'problem'.

My question to you is this: if society and culture (including religion) didn't enforce a relatively strict gender binary (as in no one would comment negatively if you acted feminine despite having male anatomy) -- do you think people in our situation would feel distress just because of that situation?

Man what a great question!  Truly I don't think I can answer it as there are too many unknowns.  For instance, if such a society existed, and a TS was born into it, perhaps there would be no environmental triggers to cause the dysphoric feelings associated with GID - so people with GID might not even know they have it.  Of course this only applies if you prescribe to the idea that environment has anything at all to do with GID.

As for living life, if there were no binary, I do not think GID would disappear as I believe there to be a biological cause, I just think the symptoms wouldn't be so severe.

[Just Kate]

Well that's where our logic runs into knots -- like I said, I don't believe I was supposed to be one way or the other.  I have the characteristic male anatomy, and yet I feel more comfortable acting and expressing myself in ways that other society views as female/feminine.  I don't perceive myself as having a 'problem'.

Ok, to this part I say this.  I myself live as a male and express myself very femininely - but I do not identify to others as a female.  They just perceive me as feminine.  If this were all my GID needed to be satiated, I'd never have needed to transition, but there is something deeper than just behavior that tells me I am female and that causes me a great desire to BE female, not just be feminine.

[placeholdername]

Man what a great question!  Truly I don't think I can answer it as there are too many unknowns.  For instance, if such a society existed, and a TS was born into it, perhaps there would be no environmental triggers to cause the dysphoric feelings associated with GID - so people with GID might not even know they have it.  Of course this only applies if you prescribe to the idea that environment has anything at all to do with GID.

As for living life, if there were no binary, I do not think GID would disappear as I believe there to be a biological cause, I just think the symptoms wouldn't be so severe.

I didn't really mean no-binary so much as a loose-binary.  I mean we're born with sex organs that mostly fit into two categories and it (crurrently) takes one of each to make a baby.  More I was thinking of a society in which people just didn't care so much about fitting into the cultural norms of what is 'female' or what is 'male'.  I think for a lot of us, much of the suffering associated with GID/trans/etc comes from societal pressure -- "you're supposed to act like X not Y" or vice versa.

But probably not all of it.  As I commented in another recent post, I tend to feel a lot of regret when I think about what things might be like if I had started transition stuff when I was 13 instead of now at 26, and that has more to do with me than with society (although maybe if society were different I WOULD have decided to do this when I was 13!)  What-if's mostly lead to unpleasant feelings =/

[mina.magpie]

My question to you is this: if society and culture (including religion) didn't enforce a relatively strict gender binary (as in no one would comment negatively if you acted feminine despite having male anatomy) -- do you think people in our situation would feel distress just because of that situation?

Ooh! Oooh! I know you didn't ask me, but if I may add my 2c?

Ok, to this part I say this.  I myself live as a male and express myself very femininely - but I do not identify to others as a female.  They just perceive me as feminine.  If this were all my GID needed to be satiated, I'd never have needed to transition, but there is something deeper than just behavior that tells me I am female and that causes me a great desire to BE female, not just be feminine.

This is very true for me too.

Also, a significant part of my dysphoria is rooted in a discordant body image - I literally feel trapped in the wrong body - wrong bits, wrong lines, wrong everything, so I don't think that would change.

Mina.

[placeholdername]

Ok, to this part I say this.  I myself live as a male and express myself very femininely - but I do not identify to others as a female.  They just perceive me as feminine.  If this were all my GID needed to be satiated, I'd never have needed to transition, but there is something deeper than just behavior that tells me I am female and that causes me a great desire to BE female, not just be feminine.

I feel similarly, except I don't express myself as femininely as I'd like to... yet.