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Privacy issues for non-ops

Started by xsocialworker, December 29, 2009, 08:54:47 PM

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FairyGirl

I'll be flying to the States in a few months for the very purpose of having SRS surgery. I was a bit concerned about the body scan thing but surely they don't just do it where everyone in the airport can see the scan? As I understand it you may refuse to be scanned but will then have to submit to a physical pat-down. As I'll be flying into LAX it's a good bet that's one place they'll be trying out the scanners if they're required at that time. If so, I'll just have to explain my situation and tell them I would prefer a female to perform the search.

Security, immigration, and customs are mainly looking for people acting suspicious or like they're trying to hide something. They're specifically trained for it. My U.S. passport has my legal, female name on it but still carries the "M" gender marker until after surgery, so I'm not really hiding anything. If I were going to try to sneak something past security, the last thing I would do is try to pass as a woman with an "M" on my passport!
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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Shana A

Quote from: Yvonne on December 31, 2009, 08:14:45 PM
Thanks very kindly but no.  Whilst I appreciate the offer, I forgot to say that besides a 'real' lawyer, Removed personal insult. ~ Miniar

You've got to the double standard :laugh:  When I post they quickly say:


but when somebody attacks me nobody says anything.  You've got to love it. Typical.

If someone were to attack you with the same vehemence of your comments, I would say the exact same thing to them. No double standards.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Janet_Girl

But what was said was not supportive in any way, shape or form.



Janet
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Just Kate

Regardless of reasons for being non-op, it is nice to know we can go to a place with support for us and ask legitimate questions or voice legitimate concerns such as the one raised in this thread.

I wish everyone realized this is a support site.  If I see a thread that burns me up, I recognize that they have different motivations for coming here and I go about my merry way.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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tekla

Security, immigration, and customs are mainly looking for people acting suspicious or like they're trying to hide something. They're specifically trained for it.

Customs and immigration sure, TSA, not so much.  TSA, like most the Patriot Act, was a knee jerk deal that was not well thought out.  They've spend more time trying to keep them from joining a union than in really trying to figure out airline security. 

While customs agents are very good - I've watched them, and immigration is a different deal, TSA doesn't know what they are really doing.  And, customs, unlike TSA uses profiling, and uses it well.  TSA is all bend out of shape with the PC deal, and spend a ton of time searching people who are not the problem.  Really, when was the last time an elderly African-American woman, or a old white guy in a wheelchair hijacked an airplane?  Never?  Right.  And until that happens - and as long as hijackers are male, between 20-40, and of late adherents of a particular faith based system, TSA should be looking right at those people, and not everyone else.

And so long as you have a bunch of minimum wage people doing the job, you're going to get a minimum wage work product.  Sure the Customs guy is better, I bet he makes 3-4X what the TSA people do, and you get what you pay for.

Matter of fact, I don't think the TSA people get much training at all.  This last guy, he was on a terrorist watch list.  Some of those 9-11 people, they were on watch lists.  So what good was any of that?

But give yourself plenty of time and take a book to read - like War and Peace, and it shouldn't be too bad*.  If nothing else, LAX is the best place in the world for stargazing.  I've never been through LAX without seeing someone I knew from movies, or recording artists and those types. 


* - just kidding, it will suck like a Hoover vacuum.  I gave up flying for anything that is not life and death (and at that it better be my life and death on the line) over a decade ago.  Before 9-11.  And the one time I did have to fly since then only confirmed that it had got even worse.  Really, I'd pay extra and sign a waiver to fly on No-Search Airlines.  And it would be hijacker free.  What hijacker is going to get on a plane where none of the other passengers were searched?  I'd also pay extra to get on a flight that bans screaming crotchfruit.  We have adults only housing, movies and lots of other things.  Would it really be that hard to have a kid-free airline?  Really, most kids are well behaved, but when they aren't, it makes a rather hellish experience much, much worse.  I always want to tell them to go outside and play now.  Their parents never see the humor in that.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Cindy

Sorry Kat what are TSA?

I was in LA a few months back and found the entry system quite intimidating and utterly useless. As you said why profile a seventy year old in a wheel chair and try to get a pupil shot from someone with cataracts. But they tried. Very impressive technology. Absolutely no brains, but lots of swagger, in the people using it. Where is the weak spot?

I have a student from the Mid-East, of all places, he is a REALLY nice guy. Seriously into medicicne and wanting to help people. He is six foot tall grows stubble every few hours is swarthy and held up at every airport. Singapore wouldn't let him out of the transport lounge for 48hrs. His crime? He looks like a terrorist on CSI. This is modern day profiling? I'm really sure that every terrorist cell says; let's send Abdul, he looks like a terrorist. He can be holding a bag which says BOMB on the outside. Shouldn't be a problem getting into the USA. Doesn't seem to be either.


As for full body screens, just sue if anyone laughs or makes a comment. They are supposed to be professional. If there is anything said or done inappropriatly, sue them. I'm sure there are lots of law firms willing to go for 10%(+) of damages. You can of course record conversations on your mobile recorder, for future use. Been a blessing to me at work.

Cindy

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The None Blonde

Actually... I sortof agree with Yvonne, shes got every right to say that... there ARE those that are non op by choice, but yes, there are those that cannot too. it has to be ballenced.

The quality of the scanners is good enough to show profile, although resolution is an issue. Its main advantage is it shows up the density of materials under clothing, such as knives, glass, guns, and PE etc. It is not, a 'turns your clothing invisible' scanner.

Yes, you can clearly see a penis dangling down between a mans legs due to the change to the profile it makes in that area. if you are tucked, well, it will not be visible as a profile change. If anything is noticed, and someone asks, explain, dont wait for them to find out. Yes, its invasive, but s*** happens. If people resort to these measures to blow you up, what would you rather? and easy hastle free trip through the airport onto your plane, only to be blown up because nobody checked joe bloggs for explosives? or security that catches these people, and keeps you alive?

I'm afraid terrorism is a problem, Ever since its use has proven effective in providing leverage to demands, and the fear has been realised, it has become a usable tool. In this world of high security and military technology, its one of the few ways to fight that. Right? wrong? not discussing that. Although I do feel some people underestimate the job of security.

These people are not employed to hastle you, or out you, if you care that much that they may find out... explain before hand. What the hell difference to your 'stealth' does some random at the airport knowing make?

I'm pre op, and have no worrires about flying. Tucked, the only way to tell im not born female, is to actively investigate my knickers contents.... Nothing that shows up in a mirror naked =  nothing will show on a scanner.

As I pointed out earlier, if anything, security wont care about Jane Doe with a dong... shes got no metal on her, or polymers, or non clothing shapes.... safe as houses... on you go. They are the same professionals that perform strip searches now, dont imagine the first thing they will do is look at your genetals to 'find you out' or have a good perv....


As for the seated during flights issue. International flights, its only no out of seat for last hour. Problem? drink less.

Domestics = different rules.

Its physically impossible to ban people from leaving thier seats with the DVT risk on longhauls.
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tekla

TSA, it is the Transportation Security Administration, the kiddie-cops at the airports.  I'm sure mall cops make more.   

If people resort to these measures to blow you up, what would you rather? and easy hastle free trip through the airport onto your plane, only to be blown up because nobody checked joe bloggs for explosives? or security that catches these people, and keeps you alive?
How about solving the problem the easy way, don't check anyone and we'll all be security.  Really, if they didn't check people in the US, then you would not only have to be suicidal (which they are) to try to take over an airplane, you will also have a major pile of fail going down, because the American mentality is such that we'd rather crash the damn plane then let you succeed - and we're armed to the teeth if we need to be. I'd fly that airplane because I know terrorists are going to avoid it as if it was made from bacon. 

And they've gone way beyond just checking for explosives, they are down to the component parts, and a lot of other stuff too.  That whole you can't take more than four ounces of a liquid.  See, part of the problem in this situation is that security is an illusion. You can't secure everyone, on every flight every time.  In part that's because top scientists around the world have worked out all sorts of ways of making things explode that you can't detect.  That's why, I'm sure, that I'm no longer allowed to bring my tools with me.  It's not like I was going to whip out the Makita and start disassembling the plane mid flight, and its not like any of that electronic testing equipment is going to make a bomb, but they don't know that.  They don't know much at all.  However, I do know something (and lots of my fellows do to) if you check that bag your $1000 plus inventory of tools that you need to work is not going to be meeting you upon your arrival.  Hell, I bet they are on E-Bay being sold before you get the 'meal.'

This last moron, who managed to pack their underwear with enough explosives to at least blow their own dick off (guess his 72 virgins are going to stay virgins) - so what, panty check for everyone now, like they did with the shoes?  How about we make everyone fly naked?

In this world of high security and military technology, its one of the few ways to fight that.
Well if that's all you need to fight it, then the security ain't that high, and military technology ain't that powerful. And the more technology dependent they are (and they have to be because they can't hire the people who are capable of doing it, or they would not tolerate the methods) the LESS secure everyone becomes in the end.  It would be remiss of me not to point out that the higher the levels of security, the less secure everyone seems to be, and in many cases, the less secure they actually are.  Because the more people depend on technology, the less they depend on people, so the security people themselves no longer have to be vigilante, they don't have to be highly trained, the machine will take care of it.

I've worked in two different places that were very low tech security, we just depended on the people there, all of them, to pay attention.  But, some Mister Manager (against my advice both times) went ahead and put in a CCTV system, and of course, hired someone who job it was to sit on their ever expanding ass and watch the damn thing.  Now the workers, they knew what was up.  They knew that the sum total of 'security' problems were very small, so what was that guy up there watching?  Us of course.  And, where once everyone was paying attention, as soon as the cameras went up everyone just seemed to think the cameras had it covered and they didn't have to bother anymore.

For over 30 years we kept the truck ramps out in the alley behind the dumpsters.  They were not locked, they were not 'under surveillance' or any of that. And for 30 years they just sat there until we needed them.  So when the new corp took over their 'security coordinator'* first made us lock up the ramps.  Then they put a camera out there (really to keep people from sneaking their pals though the back door, but...  But, locking the things up, and sticking the camera out there was just a neon sign that said "Something worth stealing is back here."  So, after 30 years of no problems, one week - ONE WEEK - after all that went down, we showed up and the ramps were gone.  Gotta love it.


* - and I for the life of me can't even figure out what security this dillweed is coordinating.  We never see him at the shows, and ya know, when there is not a show the security concerns are low, its just an empty, or near empty building.  Not that it's rocket science, but in a big nightclub the security problems tend to occur when you let the public in and turn the bars on. Duh.  Oh yeah, he's not really security, he's a security coordinator, so far be it from him to actually be there when we have real problems, he might, you know, have to do like security work, and no doubt get his ass beat like a drum by some drunk. 

They are the same professionals that perform strip searches now, dont imagine the first thing they will do is look at your genetals to 'find you out' or have a good perv....
For the life of me, I sure don't understand how anyone who is not a sexually deviant pervert would even do a job that would require strip searching people - with the attendant 'cavity check."  A person with normal morality and normal sexual tendencies would be thinking right about that time that the barista job is looking pretty good after all.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Calistine

Well, that violates the 4th amendment. Even if they had to though,they wouldnt really care about genitals as long as there are no explosives. They can't tell someone they can't board because they are transgender.
Ftms are basically screwed if thats the case in being non op since most of us dont have the surgery.
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tekla

Even though these 'enhanced security measures' can easily be defeated.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Cindy Stephens

The next time I fly, I'm going to wear my prettiest party panties!
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tekla

Everyone's going to be flying naked pretty soon.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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thea63

I see this as a non issue, after a while it will be just one more thing to help the public feel safer. Sure it sucks with all the measures that the TSA is taking to try to ID anyone these days, but we as a group are a tiny compared to the total traveling public. Not that it helps to be pulled aside when your just trying to blend in.
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DamagedChris

Interesting thought...if these scanners are designed to pick up non-biological "anomalies" in someone's underwear, would a packer raise a red flag? I know some soft packs have a bendy metal rod in the shaft that might show up if the silicone/plasticky material doesn't...

That would be a REALLY uncomfortable strip search.
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Abby

Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on December 31, 2009, 06:43:48 PM
i wasnt offering you legal services, just manual labor.

i'll help you pull your head out of your ass, though, for free.

I was going to say it was a ham-fisted attempt, that those who blow up planes can get past that.  And see, there you go.
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tekla

That would be a REALLY uncomfortable strip search.

And, pray tell me, what (other than having Megan Fox do it) would constitute a comfortable strip search?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Janet_Girl

Oh, I don't know, maybe Sean Connery?  Oh Yeah, Baby.

It is still an evasion of privacy.
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The None Blonde

If it was an Evasion, there would be no issue lol. The fact you belive (I think) it is an invasion of privacy is the problem.

Perhaps it is, perhaps it is not. But we surrender more in more other situations too. Visiting the doctor, the hospital. the gym locker room. Perfect example... To change, iin the gym, you must get naked, then put other clothes on. You do it... so  its not really an issue.

In reality these are no more than a cursory tool to check for hidden items such as polymer knives... a rather significant threat actually as scanners existing cannot detect them. (Dont anyone mention the famous glock 9 polymer handgun, its fake :P, though there have been entirely plastic shotguns developed...)
Explosives and other materials protected or masked from search dogs or other methods are designed to be picked up. Actually... should someone board through a system like this, thers not much chance of them getting anything illegal onto the plane. Its a fairly good system.

From imagery seen, m2fs have no problems  if they tuck... if they DONT tuck, then im sure you expect to be spotted either way...  Ftms with packers could pose a problem unless they explain, but im sure it could be possible for a flight to swap out your packer for a pair of socks or a non metalic one? Afterall if its got a metal bit in it the metal detector will pick it up anyway and you get to explain that.... so no change there.

Flying for trans people has never been easy per say, but i think theres an overestimation of the security measures and thier actual ability. As for wearing your prettiest panties...  they wont see them. Nor will they even have the resolution to see the little bulge in them. Outline? yes, tucked = female outline, preop, non op, or post op... well nuff said. I've had no problems being seen in my knickers in hospital tucked... and if the naked eye couldnt tell, then the scanner has no chance. A little common sense and a lot less hysteria will prevail. And if you're going to let it hang out like some of the images of males on scanners... you deserve to be caught.... thats just... mmm a bit odd.

However some here may want to apply the lubricant before hand, because some attitudes here are going to end in a rubber glove and an unconventional handshake.
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tekla

The difference is huge, what you do in a locker room is voluntary, but we actually have a law here - and not just a law, the 4th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States - that prohibits the government (and these are government agents, make no doubt about it) from doing this without a warrant, that requires a judges siggy and probable cause.  And the technology will get better once everyone is forced to buy them, the pictures will get clearer, and they will find their way to the net.

And they will be laughing at you.  Bet on it.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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The None Blonde

By law, a warrant is only required for them to perform a body search (This), or a search of private property should the individual refuse permission.

If you dont agree, turn around and leave the airport. If you do however wish to board the plane... then you agree to the scan. It is simple in my mind.
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