For those who think it's okay for TG to be a mental disorder

[Asfsd4214]

The other big problem that heterosexuals have with transgenders is what we feel we need to do to our physical bodies to have them reflect our genders.    They feel that we must have a disorder to make those changes.

I know this is likely just a mistake, but btw, a lot of us identify as heterosexual.

[Steph]

...., but btw, a lot of us identify as heterosexual.

Me too, me too.

-={LR}=-

[Nicky]

Oh no! they are taking over!!!   
Me and my wife use to joke a lot about our kids coming up to us one day and saying "mum, mommie, I have something to tell you, I am straight"

and we would be all like "omg! how did this happen? what did we do wrong?"  lol

Heterophobia, wonder if anyone has ever used that term? I mean opposite sex relations just seems so unnatural to me.

Sorry, off topic here.

[gail123]

Let me see if I have this straight;
TG is or could very well be classified as a mental disorder, and the cure is a regimen of both surgical, and chemical procedures intended to bring the person suffering from this disorder into physical (body) and intellectual (mind) balance. The medical profession is indeed a wonderful creature with the rare gift of speaking simultaneously out of both sides of its mouth. In fact while speaking in this fashion it is also capable of speaking out of its ass as well. A rare creature indeed!!!

[Steph]

Let me see if I have this straight;
TG is or could very well be classified as a mental disorder, and the cure is a regimen of both surgical, and chemical procedures intended to bring the person suffering from this disorder into physical (body) and intellectual (mind) balance. The medical profession is indeed a wonderful creature with the rare gift of speaking simultaneously out of both sides of its mouth. In fact while speaking in this fashion it is also capable of speaking out of its ass as well. A rare creature indeed!!!

Not quite... No where in the medical community do they mention a "Cure", they do list a recommended course of treatment that can include surgical procedures and a drug regimen.

Refere to the DSM and SOC, etc.

-={LR}=-

[gail123]

Ah!

Thanks I stand corrected.
The medical profession can't offer a cure just "treatment" that may or may not include surgery (hopefully this part of the "treatment" does have an endpoint) and/or drugs ( the ongoing part?). 

Just so I have it straight;
There is no cure cure for this disorder. There is, however, a treatment which consists or may consist of surgery and /or drugs.
This regimen can in no formal way be considered a cure.
I guess the best we can hope for is remission and nice looking breasts!!!!

[Just Kate]

I have to be the one to go against the grain here. From a medical standpoint, my body is perfectly fine. It all works...it just doesn't match my mental state. The mind cannot be "fixed" ... so instead you "fix" the body. In that sense, I think it's logical to have it in the DSM. There's nothing wrong with my body in a biological sense and the need to transition comes from the mind.

If not classed as a mental disorder, what would it be classed as? It's not an illness like diabetes or something else physical so there's nowhere else to put it. We require medical help (the ones who choose to transition anyway) so it needs a medical label.

Comparing TG's to homosexuals doesn't work at all, homosexuals don't need treatment of any kind, body...mind, it's all fine the way it is.

There are many different kinds of mental disorder, all perfectly valid and treatable. This disorders treatment is transition. The fact that their are many TG's who cope perfectly fine with their dysphoria and live happy lives in their birth gender proves their are different levels of severity, just like with any other mental disorder.

I'm sure everyone' heard enough from me already on this subject, but thank you Jeatyn, I couldn't agree more.  You too Pebbles and Brainiac - I agree with you as well.

Removing it from the DSM would be unethical as it would deny the opportunity for treatment for many just so our group can feel better about our own validity.  Classing it as a medical condition would help alleviate this, but that would be illogical - as there is no doctor that can properly diagnose this condition or has any system of measurement to determine ones candidacy (save a psychological exam, but that throws this back into the psychological department). 

This is a problem of the mind, not the body; we only even remotely consider it to be a body problem because 1) it is more acceptable in society to have a body problem, and 2) the most popular and successful treatment available is a "body fix" as opposed to a "mind fix".

[Julie Marie]

Not quite... No where in the medical community do they mention a "Cure", they do list a recommended course of treatment that can include surgical procedures and a drug regimen.

Refere to the DSM and SOC, etc.

-={LR}=-

The proposed DSM, thus far, states that anyone who happily transitions is no longer considered to have a mental disorder.  So in that sense, you are cured.

The change also makes it possible for individuals who have successfully transitioned to "lose" the diagnosis after satisfactory treatment. This resolves the problem that, in the DSM-IV-TR, there was a lack of an "exit clause," meaning that individuals once diagnosed with GID will always be considered to have the diagnosis, regardless of whether they have transitioned and are psychosocially adjusted in the identified gender role.
See End Note #2, paragraph 2.
http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=482#

[Alainaluvsu]

I'm all for keeping it a "disorder". It's easier to explain.

"I've been diagnosed with a mental disability: Gender Identity Disorder."



"It really is a mental disorder, look it up."

vs

"I'm transsexual"

"WTF?!?!"

No, the majority of idiots out there wont care. But the people that DO care about you will be more understanding.

[gail123]

That at least makes some sense.

It's only those of us unlucky enough not to have made a full transition that are saddled with a life long mental disorder, or according to some lucky enough to be so classified. 

Thanks for the clarification.

Happy sailing!!!.

[Tammy Hope]

Right now transgender persons are considered to have a mental disorder because they are TG.  Right now we are pushing to have ENDA passed including the T.

In the recent ruling on Prop 8 in California, Judge Walker cited a number of reasons why same-sex marriage should be allowed.  On page 76, item 47e it reads:

e. Tr 2027:19-2028:2 (Herek: Homosexuality is not considered a mental disorder. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association and other major professional mental health associations have all gone on record affirming that homosexuality is a normal expression of sexuality and that it is not in any way a form of pathology.);

Imagine what the proponents of Prop 8 would have been able to say if homosexuality was still recognized as a mental disorder.  "We are allowing mentally disordered people to marry!"  That alone would have made it an uphill battle. 

Our battle for equality, our battle to end discrimination, are tough enough.  Having TG listed as a mental disorder will only make it that much tougher.

I don't dispute your supposition but to be fair, that one has an easy answer - as soon as the law bars all people with a mental disorder (such as depression) from being wed, then they can get back to us on our "disorder"

My objection to the idea of it being a disorder is simply a matter of perception - the idea that "disorder" naturally infers "harmful." If it were not for that perception, I wouldn't particularly object to itbeing called a "disorder"

That said, more and more it seems to be more accurate to suggest it is a a mental manifestation of a physical "disorder"

(and yes I know, in the sense that our plumbing is backwards, it IS a physical disorder but good luck selling the cis-world on THAT definition)

Post Merge: August 11, 2010, 02:22:50 AM
just want to add, looking over the thread a bit it seems to me pretty obvious that however we express it, we're all basically concerned about the negative implications of the "diagnosis"

i am sympathetic to the idea that until (unless) there is ever a physical indicator that can be identified, the logical description of this is as a mental condition.

It's what word is used to describe the condition - "disorder" or something else - that carries with it the baggage of perception.

The ideal word would say "this person needs therapeutic treatment to relieve the dysphoria" but NOT say "this person is sick and needs to be 'fixed'"

I'm not sure I'd pick the right word but I think I'd know it if I heard it.

[Steph]

The proposed DSM, thus far, states that anyone who happily transitions is no longer considered to have a mental disorder.  So in that sense, you are cured.

The change also makes it possible for individuals who have successfully transitioned to "lose" the diagnosis after satisfactory treatment. This resolves the problem that, in the DSM-IV-TR, there was a lack of an "exit clause," meaning that individuals once diagnosed with GID will always be considered to have the diagnosis, regardless of whether they have transitioned and are psychosocially adjusted in the identified gender role.
See End Note #2, paragraph 2.
http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=482#

Hopefully the proposed DSM will be adopted soon

-={LR}=-

[Fencesitter]

I guess the best we can hope for is remission and nice looking breasts!!!!

I get what you mean, but honestly, I don't like to have nice looking breasts or any breasts at all. Not really.

[Julie Marie]

Yes, Tammy, it is a physical condition (rare) that, due to social prejudice, causes in many people emotional distress.  Remove the social prejudice and it's a whole different animal.

If you break it down to the basics, many so-called disorders in the DSM - past, present and proposed - are simply conditions of unhappiness: dysphoria.  The psychiatric community decided that if you are unhappy and it lasts too long you have a mental disorder.  In other words, unhappiness should be a temporary condition.

Many of us could be said to be having a Social Phobia.  On the other hand we could say people who fear same sex marriage or transgender people have a Specific Phobia.  An argument can be made for either case.  It seems if you refer to the DSM every time someone is unhappy, fearful, anxious, etc, you can usually find some mental disorder from which they suffer, as long as the suffering exceeds a certain length of time.  In other words, we're all nuts, except for those who are happy all the time and then we say they are delusional! 

But walk out on the street and ask a dozen or so people at random what they think of someone who has a mental disorder and, if you could get them to be totally honest... okay, that's a dream, but I think you know what I mean.  Society likes to keep its distance from the mentally disordered.  So it's in our best interest, as far as social acceptance, to get the psychiatric community to agree that it's societal prejudice, not our feelings about ourselves, that cause our emotional distress.

And if you need a valid reason for seeing a therapist and want your insurance to cover it, just open the DSM.  I'm sure you won't have any problem finding one, even if TG was completely removed.  Regarding HRT and GRS, the psychiatric community (most of it) follows the recommendations of WPATH.  It's all laid out there.

[brainiac]

But walk out on the street and ask a dozen or so people at random what they think of someone who has a mental disorder and, if you could get them to be totally honest... okay, that's a dream, but I think you know what I mean.  Society likes to keep its distance from the mentally disordered.  So it's in our best interest, as far as social acceptance, to get the psychiatric community to agree that it's societal prejudice, not our feelings about ourselves, that cause our emotional distress.

Since when is dysphoria not a cause of emotional distress...?

Am I really the only one who's bothered emotionally by my dysphoria?

[Torn1990]

I definitely think it should be considered a mental disorder. It is for me, and possibly isn't for some people... But as far as my opinion goes, We were born in the wrong body, it is a "dis order" of the mind that needs to be sorted through with treatment. Gay people just need to be accepted and accept homosexuality in themselves, where as we have to do alot more...  Whether it's treatment through transition or learning coping methods. For myself this is definitely a disorder. A tragedy.. I know it's a terrible attitue and blah blah blah, but i am young and have been absolutely f*ing miserable. I lay in bed everynight with my chest ripped open crying my eyes out. I could accept being gay, but this just isn't normal.

[Fencesitter]

I think gender and sex being at odds is not a disorder in itself, but just human variation.

But the consequences can lead to distress and disorders if you suffer from it.

@Torn1990
I feel sorry for you and hope you will get better soon.

[Julie Marie]

Since when is dysphoria not a cause of emotional distress...?

Dysphoria is not the cause of distress, it's the result of distress.

The process goes something like this:
You are part of a group of people against whom society has a prejudice.
You are bothered by the fact you will be persecuted if society finds out.
You either fear someone finding out or you wish to be out.
This causes emotional distress.
The distress leads to dysphoria.
The cause of the dysphoria is listed in a book of mental disorders
You now have a mental disorder.

I definitely think it should be considered a mental disorder. It is for me, and possibly isn't for some people...

And that's the problem.  Some people torture themselves over this.  Others are perfectly fine about their gender identity condition and think society is filled with too many misinformed and uneducated people and somehow these people think it's okay to try to force other people to do what they want them to do.

And that takes us back to the Prop 8 trial.  The judge ruled it was unconstitutional for 7,000,000 people to vote away the fundamental right for gays and lesbians to marry.  Effectively agreeing with one of the Principles of Democracy:
Majority rule is a means for organizing government and deciding public issues; it is not another road to oppression. Just as no self-appointed group has the right to oppress others, so no majority, even in a democracy, should take away the basic rights and freedoms of a minority group or individual.

We are who we are.  The majority doesn't like that.  So they pressure us into conforming and attach negative consequences to non-conformance.  We are conflicted between being who we are and suffering the consequences or succumbing to the pressure and conforming.  This leads to a lot of unhappiness.  Is there a human being out there who wouldn't respond this way if being who they are had such consequences?  I doubt it.  So is it the gender identity condition?  Is it our response to social pressure?  Or is it just a misinformed, uneducated society that is unjustly punishing us for non-conformity?  I pick door number 3.

The Prop 8 ruling says no matter how many people want to vote away your fundamental rights, it is unconstitutional to do so.  We have the right to the pursuit of happiness and the majority is trying to deny us those rights by discriminating against us.  Is that any different than denying gays & lesbians the right to marry?  Not in my book!

[Duke T]

The other big problem that heterosexuals have with transgenders is what we feel we need to do to our physical bodies to have them reflect our genders.    They feel that we must have a disorder to make those changes.

THIS ^^

Even reading the title of this topic struck a nerve with me...My parents are currently dragging me to a million doctors for psychiatric evaluations, hoping one of them will declare me crazy so they can just give me a pill to "fix" me and be done with it. >-bleeped-< that >-bleeped-<. I know I'm not crazy.

[shoegazer]

Dysphoria is not the cause of distress, it's the result of distress.

The process goes something like this:
You are part of a group of people against whom society has a prejudice.
You are bothered by the fact you will be persecuted if society finds out.
You either fear someone finding out or you wish to be out.
This causes emotional distress.
The distress leads to dysphoria.
The cause of the dysphoria is listed in a book of mental disorders
You now have a mental disorder.

Obviously I cannot speak for everybody, but for me the gender dysphoria and the social stigma are two separate things.

By gender dysphoria I mean the extreme discomfort that I feel with my body and especially its primary and secondary sexual characteristics. I find having the body that I do very painful at times, and I've spend much of my life desperate to have a female body rather than a male one. The  dissonance that I feel when looking in the mirror is not a social problem, although we clearly also have social problems as well. It's just that for me by far the biggest issue is and always has been the strong sense that my body is not right.