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How do you respond to someone who insists its a sin to get a sex change?

Started by Alex201, December 08, 2010, 01:19:20 AM

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Tad

If they are like the religous people I know (including myself) - they'll likely want a more scriptural view of this. I found this a few days ago and it helped me. Also there are lots of minsters out there that support trans/that are trans. Getting them to talk with one could help.



*note not written by me*
Introduction

Religious faith has inspired some of the greatest accomplishments in human history. Conversely, it has also been misused to perpetrate some of the most horrific acts in human history.

In the same way, a belief system can be a very important source of strength, hope, and fellowship for some transsexuals. It has also caused a great deal of misery for others.

Some of us were raised in faiths that condemned our actions as immoral or wrong. Like the similar pressure we receive from society, it often makes us try to be someone we aren't. The problem with religious pressure is that the stakes are higher. Society's disapproval is nothing compared to jeopardizing one's soul, some feel. I believe transition is about living more truthfully, but many of us set up a massive deception to hide our feelings from others. Sometimes, we even deceive ourselves. When this deception is caused by religious pressure, it can create an emotionally wrenching and devastating dilemma when one realizes she has to transition.

One of the things you'll need to work on early in transition is reconciling your transsexual feelings with your beliefs. It's a part of self-acceptance. Occasionally, this is not possible, but if it's important to you, there are ways to find acceptance within most belief systems, and there are certainly transsexuals who share your faith who can lend you guidance and support.

Much of this writing centers on Christianity, since I am well-versed in the Bible and had a Christian upbringing. I also assume most readers have had some sort of Christian background. I have links covering other religions, although that information is not as complete as I wish.

Judaeo-Christianity and transsexuality

Leslie Feinberg, in the must-read Transgender Warriors, makes a very important point that the Hebrews are not to blame for the origins of trans oppression. Leslie points out correctly that the real problem was the patriarchal class division that occurs when any culture begins to produce enough surplus to accumulate wealth. However, as with most religions, the Hebrews sought to codify and enforce laws that maintained the priestly class as designated keepers of much of the surplus. Rules also sought to maintain the status of the wealthy. This meant vilifying other belief systems that posed a threat to the Hebrew status quo. This is certainly widespread, but the Hebrews were among the first to put it in writing that's survived.

One cannot deny that the rules written in Hebrew Scriptures have been used ever since to justify hatred of transgender people. Hebrew thought permeated Christian thought, which permeated Western thought. The Bible is probably the most influential literary work ever written. As with the passages below, it's important to put Hebrew anti-trans motivations in context, but it's clear that the Bible has been misused as one of the most damaging weapons against the transgender.

Know thine enemy

Probably the most intolerant religious group regarding transsexuality in America is fundamentalist evangelical Christianity. They are certainly the largest. Many of the more fundamentalist sects believe in their literal interpretation of the Bible. They feel the Bible's eternal truths, as they interpret them, back them up in saying transsexuals are an abomination in God's eyes.

Religious groups like Americans for Truth About Homosexuality make it their full-time mission to oppose transsexual activism and other things they see as morally corrupt. These people are heavily funded, large in number, and politically connected. I believe these groups are the gravest direct threat to transgender rights we face.

However, it doesn't take much looking to see that their condemnations of transsexuals do not follow a literal interpretation of the Bible. I've included examples that expose their hypocrisy and hatred below.

Passages from Scripture

Many Jews and Christians look to the Torah and/or Bible for guidance. Keep in mind that these Scriptures were compiled over almost 2,000 years. Think of how much different the world is since the time of Christ, and you'll get an idea of the kind of time the Bible spans. Because of the radical differences in their dates of origins and authorial intent, there are many places where the Bible contradicts itself. See the section below on eunuchs for a good example.

Unfortunately, this often makes it possible for both sides to find passages that echo their sentiments. As Shakespeare writes in Merchant of Venice, "The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose." Scripture passages are in red, important comments are in purple.

The best thing to try to do when someone quotes a Bible passage out of context is to try to put it back, both in that chapter's context, and in historical context. Allow me an example:

Deuteronomy 22:5

I call this the cross-dressing rule, though it could be broadly interpreted to include transsexuals. They weren't throwing the term "transsexual" around four millennia ago.

    * A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.

Hebrew law was codified by priests who believed these laws were based on the received word of God, and that Hebrews were God's chosen people. This attitude is often a recipe for disaster-- any time someone thinks they have a divine right to do something, you probably won't be able to convince them otherwise without considerable effort.

Of Hebrew law, the Ten Commandments are best-known. However, Deuteronomic code discusses a vast number of rules and rituals to be followed.

Many of the Hebrew laws, including the cross-dressing rule, are about separation. When Hebrew marauders attacked and killed the agrarian inhabitants of Palestine and took their cities and virgins, they took great pains to make sure that their own culture and hierarchy was not polluted by the displaced inhabitants or their new forcibly converted wives.

The Hebrews were especially horrified by the polytheistic worship of the people they conquered, so their laws were especially strict regarding the LORD. For instance, the first four of the Ten Commandments:

   1. Worship no gods before me
   2. No graven images
   3. Don't take my name in vain
   4. Observe the Sabbath

Several Palestinian pagan sects involved worship where priests would crossdress in sex-changing rituals. Thus, for Hebrew priests-- cross-dressing idolatrous polytheists bad, monotheists good. And never the twain shall meet.

I believe that the current Western obsession with separation/distinction of sexes has its literary roots in ancient Hebrew law.

Mosaic law in context

Much of the Deuteronomic code is not followed these days, because many of the laws are ridiculous by current moral standards. Still, those with a political agenda, whether pro or con on an issue, often pick and choose passages that back up their claims, ignoring the fact that the passages appear amidst a lot of other stuff that seems ridiculous today.

Take a look at the miscellaneous rules which follow Deuteronomy 22:5--

    * A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
    * Don't take a mother bird from her nest.
    * Put a rail around your roof so no one falls off.
    * Don't plant crops with vines.
    * Don't hitch oxen and donkeys together.
    * Don't wear cloth combined of wool and linen.
    * Sew tassels on four corners of clothes.
    * If a man marries a girl, but later doesn't want her and claims she wasn't a virgin, her parents are to bring blood stained wedding sheet to the leaders, who are to beat him and make him give 500 silver pieces to the father, and he can't divorce her. If the husband's claims are true, she's to be stoned to death at the entrance to her father's house.
    * Men who have sex with others' fiancees are to be killed along with the fiancee. However, if it happens in the country, you should just kill the man, since no one could have heard the woman cry out.
    * Raping single girls requires payment of 50 silver pieces to her father and marriage with no divorce.
    * No sex with any of father's wives.

Being forced to marry your rapist, polygamy, stoning people to death... not exactly civilized by modern standards. Just as strange today is sewing tassels on your clothes or putting a rail around your roof.

As I mentioned earlier, the Hebrews were deeply invested in distinction and separation. Their dietary laws are about categories, and most unclean animals do not fit into an acceptable category. For instance, Jews can't mix dairy and meat. Rules against pork are because pigs have cloven hooves but don't chew a cud, thus are not neatly categorized. Only water creatures with fins and scales may be eaten-- no shrimp or frogs, etc.

Biblical scholars have commented that the laws above about mixing crops, livestock and fabrics are manifestation of this fierce urge to maintain distinctions. Think of other common phrases from the Bible: separate the sheep from the goats, or the wheat from the chaff...

The Hebrews were heavily invested in maintaining a distinction between their beliefs and the beliefs of those they conquered. This meant in part a very distinct separation of sexes.

However, there are numerous passages about people who blur these distinctions: eunuchs.

Eunuchs

Eunuchs are people assigned males at birth who have later been castrated. Technically, transsexuals fit that narrow definition, although eunuchs generally lived as men after castration. This custom appeared throughout Asia and peaked during the Byzantine Empire. The practice was used for servants in royal households and to a lesser extent, in harems. Many ancient religious rituals involved genital modification, including the Hebrew practice of circumcision.

The first chapter of Daniel shows that he and the Chaldean king's chief eunuch were close. Some have gone as far as to say Daniel himself was a eunuch, but that's not clear. An even more tendentious stretch is that Daniel was gay. Another eunuch, Ebedmelech, saved Jeremiah after he'd been put in a well by his enemies (Jeremiah 38:7).

Eunuchs get a bad rap early on in Scripture, but in later Jewish and Christian writings, they are allowed to join those groups in worship.

Deuteronomy 23.1

Immediately following the above miscellaneous rules in Deuteronomy, there's specific mention of eunuchs.

    * He whose testicles are crushed or whose male member is cut off shall not enter the assembly of the LORD.

Hmm. That doesn't sound good (the rule or the injury).

Also out of the club are pagan temple prostitutes and Israel's political enemies, among others. This chapter also tells how to deal with wet dreams and how to bury your excrement while camping. Again, put it back into context...

Remember, circumcision = genital modification

The rule probably applied to those who modified their genitals as part of pagan ritual. Like 22.5, it is about transgender practices by non-Hebrews. Of course, the Hebrew version of genital modification was OK, and some say this is because circumcision didn't usually interfere with reproduction. Anything that negates reproduction interferes with the system by which wealth is passed on-- a big no-no.

And let's not forget castrati

Further, remember that eunuchs known as castrati were highly respected singers in European cathedrals. Their full-throated soprano voices were considered an appropriate and inspirational form of praise to God.

However...

Isaiah 56:4-5

In contradiction to the rules against eunuchs in Deuteronomy stands this passage from Isaiah:

    * "For thus says the Lord: to the eunuchs who keep my sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast to my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument better than sons and daughters, I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off."

"Shall not be cut off??" Who says the Bible doesn't have much humor! That's a pretty bad pun! This passage is especially useful for transsexuals, since it appears in the Old Testament along with the Deuteronomy passage.

Acts 8:26-39

This is the story of the evangelist Philip (not the apostle), who meets a devout Ethiopian eunuch. Philip offers to interpret a passage the eunuch was reading at the time. The passage was Isaiah 53:7-8, often interpreted as a prophecy of Christ's coming. Philip takes this chance to tell the eunuch about Jesus Christ, and the eunuch asks to be baptized. This eunuch is traditionally held to be the person who brought Christianity to northern Africa.

The point of this is that even eunuchs can be baptized as Christians or join in God's worship, in contradiction with Deuteronomy 23:1 and in keeping with Isaiah 56:4-5. In fact, eunuchs have been doing the work of the church since the time of Christ.

Matthew 19:12

This passage has Jesus speaking directly about eunuchs:

    * For there are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, who were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Many interpretations of this passage have arisen. Some believe it is a discussion of voluntary celibacy, but the fact that Christ mentions people born that way indicates to me a birth condition. Some have also interpreted this to mean gays, which doesn't seem out of the question. However, I think the most literal interpretation would include intersexed (born that way) and transsexual persons (made that way). Regardless of interpretation, the main point is that anyone able to receive the Kingdom of Heaven may do so.

Mark 9:43-47

This passage has Jesus speaking directly about altering one's body:

    * If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

Many interpretations of this passage have arisen as well. While it is rarely taken as a literal exhortation, it does seem to say that your bodily form does not matter, and that altering it will not exclude you from entering heaven.

Your body is a temple

I Corinthians 5:19

The "your body is God's temple" argument is used for everything from suicide to poor eating habits.

    * If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you yourselves are his temple.

For transsexuals, this argument often manifests itself as, "If God had wanted you to be a woman, he would have made you that way." This argument is easily countered by asking if this applies to any sort of medical intervention, from wearing corrective lenses, to taking aspirin, to other surgeries.

God and discrimination

1 Samuel 16:7

In this passage, the lowly shepherd David is anointed king of Israel. Samuel assumes the LORD will choose one of David's many handsome brothers, but the LORD says to Samuel:

    * ...I do not judge as man judges. Man looks at the outward appearance, but I look at the heart.

Acts 10:34

This appears in the story of the first Gentile converted to Christianity.

    * Peter began to speak: "I now realize that it is true that God treats everyone on the same basis. Whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him...

The original context was race, but a broader interpretation seems valid.

Galatians 3:28

Another catch-all comeback! If someone starts spouting Scripture to justify hating transsexuals, lay this one on them:

    * ...there is neither male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus.

John 3:16

Of course, nothing beats a passage that's really familiar...

    * For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Sounds like that covers pretty much any believer, huh? Thanks to that rainbow wig guy who popularized the verse, even if a lot of sports fans don't know what he was referring to.

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cynthialee

QuoteMark 9:43-47

This passage has Jesus speaking directly about altering one's body:

    * If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell.

well there ya go, the trump card
"I had to cut it off.....it was making me sin."
Not exactly a perfect win but a win is a win.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Debra

There's lots that you can say. See this site for more info: http://www.transchristians.org

I've combatted everything my parents have said and they were left silent with nothing else to say but they still cling to their stupid prejudices

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tekla

You could give up your belief in 'sin'.  It's an awesome first step to living a happy and self-actualized life.

Alternatively you could say "Gee god made me a transexual, and who are you to question god?"  Though I'd advise a long trip to the closest bar after that as mom is going to blow a gasket or two.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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sarahla

Tad gave a great write-up.  I just wanted to add a thought to what he wrote.

I researched the topic a bit last week from a Jewish point of view.  I went and asked a reform rabbi, who directed me to TransFaithonline.org, who directed me elsewhere.  Basically, the reform and conservative wings fully accept the LGBT community.  The Union of Reform Jewish Rabbis, or whatever that is called, accepts Jews.

The problem, of course, comes from the Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Jews, but I am not sure that I consider them Jews.  They act more like extremists and cultists, not to mention hypocrites.  That comes from personal knowledge of Chabad.  Evangelical Christians, Born Again Christians, and Catholics are no better, pretty much hypocrites.

That being said, even the Orthodox does accept trans people, so long as the transition follows certain guidelines.  Jewish Law forbids the self altering of one's body, but there is no law that states that someone else, like a doctor, cannot do that.  Doctors alter the body all the time for one thing or the other.  Think of surgery or giving medicine.  There were two Jewish authorities (from reading material on TransFaith), which discusses this topic.

Jewish Law specifically states that sex is determined solely by outward appearance of the genitals; period.  A person who undergoes a sex change surgery is considered the opposite sex with no bad karma or going to hell.  The person doing the surgery is not punished either by Orthodox law, as long as the surgeon is not Jewish.

The passage about a man cannot a woman's clothing is not opposing transsexuals.  The Jewish Judges / scholars said that as long as a transsexual does not wear the opposite clothing until after GRS/SRS, then there is no violation of law.  The violation comes during the transition, but even that has an out.

Basically, it boils down to people's prejudice and hatred of anything that they do not understand or that they perceive as different.  History is full of this type of thing.  People hated scientists centuries ago who said that the world was round and not flat.  The Church fought Galileo, who said the world was round citing the bible, but now they are okay that the world is round.  The list is endless.

There is a F2M ordained rabbi in San Francisco (Oakland?), who did a lot of research on this topic.  His name is Reuben Zellman.

Beit Shimchat Torah, the temple where Reuben Zelman works, has a transgender section.

http://www.cbst.org/Community/Transgender/Trans-Intersex-and-Gender-Queer-Resource-Page

There are articles there.  He addresses things from an F2M point of view, but the same applies for M2F.

This whole topic is quite involved, but there is nothing in Jewish Law that forbids transsexuals.  Heck, even gays and lesbians are now welcome in reform temples, so change is possible.

Not to talk too much on Jewish people, but Christian denominations also now fully embrace transsexuals and do not see any conflict with religious doctrine.  It is only the extremes side still that does not evolve their thinking and embrace others and they would have others do onto them.
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Amazon D

I just watched a great show called the naked archiologist and he was able to postulate that paul was a spy for the romans / Constantine and Peter was a spy for the jews and only james was true as he was Jesus brother. James was persecuted and slain while Peter and Paul were made out to be great men who excaped death. hmmm becareful of what is written in the bible because it has been distorted ever since Jesus was crucified. only his brother and Mother were there and followed him and his teachings without distortion.

http://community.history.com/topic/24678/t/Were-Paul-and-Peter-Roman-Spies.html

whose religion interpretation of the bible or truth of the past is your mother or parents or friends following ? 

get the truth and then follwo God or the true bible 

i love James writings
I'm an Amazon womyn + very butch + respecting MWMF since 1999 unless invited. + I AM A HIPPIE

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Adabelle

I was just emailing a friend about this very subject today. Here is what I said:

QuoteOn the spiritual thoughts behind being transgender I can think of a few ways to look at it:

On one side we can make the assumption and argument that babies are given from God, and that we are biologically predestined by God as we physically appear at birth. Therefore, it's easy then to say that a transgender person who seeks to modify their body is going against God's plan, since they were born with that body at birth. But this argument has limitations does it not? When a baby is born with their organs on the outside of the body is it wrong for us to modify God's plan and put the organs inside? If we make the above assumption then are we not playing God the same as a transgender person who seeks to "correct" what they feel has been wrong their entire life? How about people who are born with mental issues? If God planned them to deal with these struggles, then isn't it equally as wrong for us to medically intervene so these individuals can feel "normal"? So I understand this argument, but it doesn't entirely work for me and the argument feels somewhat shaky and requires some splitting of hairs and playing God (deciding where God made a mistake and we are morally justified in medically intervening). And deciding what is okay and not to intervene in God's plan. If transgender is a legitimate medical disorder, then it's the same as any other, and medical intervention is no more unethical or aspiritual than any other case to me.

Another way this could be looked at is by making a similar assumption, but in the positive. That God does predestine us biologically, but that He actually creates people male, female, and everything inbetween. Perhaps transgender individuals bring a unique perspective to the world, and God appreciates and intends this diversity within his creation. Maybe God's plan is for these individuals to live in the "in between" of the genders, or perhaps move from one to the other? Maybe the confusion and the problems we have with transgender or gay individuals is a human problem, not a Divine one. One could even interpret Jesus Himself as having either a positive, or at worst a neutral response to the transgender individuals that lived in His own day: "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can." Matthew 19:12 NRSV

A third way I can think of seeing it is to say that none of us is predestined biologically by God, and that human biology at birth isn't controlled by God but a human or natural process. If this is the case then babies are products of imperfect forces that have been in place since the fall of humanity. Making this assumption one could say it's not necessarily God's plan that a baby is born with organs outside its body, or intersexed, or LGBT, or with any particular biological configuration - but that such is how the world operates today. As such, I would see no reason to discriminate against any medically treatable condition on spiritual grounds. I would have no objections under this argument treating ANY medically treatable condition that would help the patient live a happier and healthier life. And, of course I would see no reason to discriminate against any such individuals on the basis of something that they are born with and is beyond their control.

As for any non-spiritual arguments for/against I am sure there are many. My basic thought right now is that if it can be shown that any medical treatment (even castration) is a legitimate and scientifically proven way to improve the quality of life for the patient, then I am not ethically opposed to it. (or you could say as above, "I am able to accept this." :)

I am not sure if this is helpful, but I thought I'd share it just in case.
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spacial

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on December 08, 2010, 04:42:29 PM
I just watched a great show called the naked archiologist and he was able to postulate that paul was a spy for the romans / Constantine and Peter was a spy for the jews and only james was true as he was Jesus brother. James was persecuted and slain while Peter and Paul were made out to be great men who excaped death. hmmm becareful of what is written in the bible because it has been distorted ever since Jesus was crucified. only his brother and Mother were there and followed him and his teachings without distortion.

http://community.history.com/topic/24678/t/Were-Paul-and-Peter-Roman-Spies.html

whose religion interpretation of the bible or truth of the past is your mother or parents or friends following ? 

get the truth and then follwo God or the true bible 

i love James writings

I to, really enjoyed Tad's post. It was so well thought out.

As to the above.

There are quite a lot of these notions and theories going around. The one thing they all have in common is they seek to portray the Gospels as part of a conspiracy.

Islam, in particular, teaches that the Gospels are corrupted, by men, to suit themselves.

There really is only one response. If someone, for whatever reason, was going to forge the Gospels, why would they write, for example:

We don't need to attend any church.

No-one has the right to judge us. (By inference, we cannot submit ourselves to the judgement of others)

We must never kill.

Because, in all honesty, who could possibly benefit from these, very radical and somewhat dangerous ideas?
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tekla

The truth here is that there is no real Truth (Veritas) in any of this.  Truth can be proved, it never asks to be taken 'on faith' - the only people who ask that of you are con-artists.  Its all a bunch of old stories, made up in superstitions by people who didn't even understand the rock they were sitting on when they wrote it.  Of course, if you think the rambling writings of a bunch of sheep-herders way back in BCE is an appropriate guide to living in the 21st Century, then don't blame me when you don't find a place in the here and now, which may well be the only here that that is.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Nathan.

Quote from: CaitJ on December 08, 2010, 01:46:37 AM
By asking them if any other surgical procedure is a sin.

This pretty much.

I don't believe in sin, hell, god etc. but when they say that god doesn't make mistakes so transitioning is a sin, you could say that this is simply corrective surgery and god made you this way and gave you this path for a reason.

I had a friend who was born with a hole in her heart she had it fixed so is she a sinner or the doctors/parents? Most christians will say no but they wouldn't say the same thing about transitioning, I think alot of people just cling to 'its a sin' so they don't have to question their prejudices.
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cynthialee

Personaly I think that my transition is a direct chalenge to me by the gods. It is my destiny and what I am supossed to do. When I ran from transition my life was hell. Now I am embracing the path the gods have set for me, life is going well.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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annette

Hi Alex

do you have the same religion as your parents and do you have quilt feelings about it or do you just want to give a reply to your parents.
If it's the last, don't do it because you can't convince them, save your energy for positive things.
And I am so very, very agree with Nathan.
Most people use their holy books for what's the best for them or their opinion.
So you can hide behind the bible or something, you can say, well for me it's not a problem but my religion you know.
Than they can hide their own intoleration behind the intoleration of the book.
Beside, the bible is more than 2000 years of age, did they do transition at that time?
So live your own life and be happy, you deserve it

hug annette
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Cruelladeville

*if you think the rambling writings of a bunch of sheep-herders way back in BCE is an appropriate guide to living in the 21st Century*

So well written Tekla..... stuff like that gets points and prizes....!
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Suzy

No matter your personal beliefs, you will score no points at all by attacking your parents' religion.  You will only put them on the defensive and make certain they will not hear you.  I hope you take a better course.  I hope you can be respectful, as you want them to be to you.  Model it and show them how it works.  If you have disagreements with their religion, fine.  Say them.  If it is a matter of how they interpret a particular teaching, show them why you think they are in error.  But you don't strike me as a particularly nasty person at all.  Why just give your parents more ammunition, instead of trying to have honest dialog and gain respect?

Peace,
Kristi
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tekla

There is no middle ground with those who believe that: "God said it, I believe it, that settles it."
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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CaitJ

Quote from: Cruelladeville on December 09, 2010, 04:26:12 AM
*if you think the rambling writings of a bunch of sheep-herders way back in BCE is an appropriate guide to living in the 21st Century*

So well written Tekla..... stuff like that gets points and prizes....!

That passage is remarkably familiar.
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tekla

Its a basic part of the pro-science, anti-creationism, anti-intelligent design speech.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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spacial

Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2010, 11:46:52 PM
Its a basic part of the pro-science, anti-creationism, anti-intelligent design speech.

While I don't really want to get into a confrontation, it isn't.

It's a statement of opinion. The opinion may be correct, it may be debatable, it may be incorrect. But it is just opinion and not scientific in the least.
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