How do you respond to someone who insists its a sin to get a sex change?

[JosephKT]

Okay long thread.  Just as a note, please keep on topic, issues about the validity or Christianity or religion, or even on the other end Scientific fundamentalists and atheists in general can go on other threads.

I'm not Christian myself, but I think I may have some advice. I was involved in the religious community, went to Christian school and whatnot, and have friends of a variety of religious backgrounds of the LGBTQA spectrum,, and a lot of this comes from being in such a background.

Yes, fighting scripture with scripture is hard, but often that's your only option, even if the other party plays the "I'm right, you're not" card over and over.

Yes, the Bible doesn't state anything about a "sex-change" being wrong, but those who believe it do be a sin will be quick to state the following: there was no "sex-change" when all this was written, it "kills your unborn children," "homosexuality is wrong" (often people will drag that in whether is fits or not).  So this is not the best "come-back" for the super up-tight religious folks.

As for Leviticus and Deuteronomy, (hey that last one gets spell checked, awesome for me!~ I would have had to look it up), there are several interpretations, but here are two of the most interesting I've found.  Many Christian scholars say these passages were mostly written for hygiene purposes like listing what not to eat because at the time it could easily kill you, or many people have a severe allergic reaction to it.  Or, things we take for granted like ready access to baths and condoms, were not developed at the time.  Another interpretation from reformed Judaic scholars is, and lets remember these passages were written by the Semites, is that the list of sins are all things that fall under acts that were used in the worship of other gods.  Meaning, in a convoluted way, men can totally have sex with each other while eating a bacon cheeseburger, just make sure it's not while worshiping anyone outside of the ones approved by monotheistic bearded dudes.  *yeah, don't tell your parents that last part*

As for God's plan, that you're "spitting in the eye of" and going to Hell.  This site is not about being transsexual, but sometimes we need to open up with something more on "familiar ground." It is the path a very interesting man, a pastor, took when he realized homosexuality and what the scripture said were not what they thought they were and how he can to believe in the a "biblical affirmation of homosexuality."  Like I said, not the same thing, but it touches many of the scriptures that get harped on by the religiously intolerant, and gives some great points about what many people believe is hard evidence of what God means, from a man who is still very religious.  The site is: http://godmademegay.com/

[spacial]

With respect, appearing to mock fundimentalists, who adheir to anything, is just going to put their backs up. By their nature, these people are certain. If they see you as being anything 'less' than themselves, they will view any comments you make as hostile to their positions.

I personally have few problems with spiritual fundimentalists, mainily because in my society, they don't seem to have any significant influence. The last time any of these people shook any branches was during Thatcher's term.

But I do have a serious problem with many science fundimentialists. Those that claim science proves and especially those that claim that psychology is anything more than another belief system.

I'm raising this simply to offer a comparison. There is little or nothing to be gained by attacking these people. All fundimentalists have an armoury or defenses, generally boiling down to one. Hindus generally dismiss using their enlightenment argument, nazis generally dismiss using their cultural inferior argument, spiritualists generally use their devil argument and science types generally use their insanity argument.

All are basically the same. All are fanaitical, insecure, ignorant and essentially seeking power.

I have found the only way to deal with fundies of any hue directly is to convince these people you are not a threat to them.

[justmeinoz]

If the person concerned knows you, then challenging their Bible knowledge is relevant.

However if it is a stranger who wishes to give you the benefit of their religious convictions, it is presumptious of them to assume you would not be offended by their comments. In that case I have no qualms about discomforting their sanctimonious self-righteousness by whatever means I can think of at the time.  If I can cause them to rethink their bigotry so much the better.

[CaitJ]

It's important to remember that you can't use logic to change the mind of a person who did not use logic to arrive at their conclusion (i.e. 'being trans is a sin').

[lightvi]

When I came out to my mom the same thing happened. Given that I had to explain the difference between transexual and homosexual leads me to believe that she is just using religion as an excuse because thinking about that sort of thing makes her uncomfortable. Maye she's afraid to think about it because it could change her somehow. I'm not mad at her, I just wish she would open up her mind a little and just think about it. As of right now she won't even acknowledge that we even had the conversation, if I try to bring it up she ignores it and sometimes just walks away.

I suppose I've given up trying to tell her about my life and feelings, which is a shame because we've always been really close. I feel like this has torn us apart and I hate that it has and if I could do anything to work it out I would. I'm not going to live the perfect little life she wants for me though, I have my own plans and if she doesn't like them then she has to deal with her own feelings. I try to be a people pleaser and I hate arguments but somewhere I have to draw the line and not let people walk on me.

[tekla]

It's important to remember that you can't use logic to change the mind of a person who did not use logic to arrive at their conclusion

QFT

If you did not use reason to get there, reason is not going to get you out of there.  These beliefs are not based in reason, in logic, in rationality, and faith is pretty much all-powerful against such things. 

[spacial]

These beliefs are not based in reason, in logic, in rationality, and faith is pretty much all-powerful against such things.

It's a sad reality, that just as these types hijack everything else to justify their limited intellect, many claim to use logic reason and rationality.

[tekla]

So I guess you're not going to sign on to my theory that people who do not believe in evolution should not be allowed to use vaccines?

[ToriJo]

So I guess you're not going to sign on to my theory that people who do not believe in evolution should not be allowed to use vaccines?

Unfortunately there is a *ton* of anti-science in religious circles, so they would probably have no problem.  After all, vaccines cause all sorts of horrible things if you listen to some of the right-wing religious new-mom types, despite no actual evidence.

[regan]

Unfortunately there is a *ton* of anti-science in religious circles, so they would probably have no problem.  After all, vaccines cause all sorts of horrible things if you listen to some of the right-wing religious new-mom types, despite no actual evidence.

Its not just Sarah Palin wannabes, alot of the everything organic, only natural fibers for my baby and oh yeah vaccines are bad types are screaming liberals.

[Nathan.]

It's important to remember that you can't use logic to change the mind of a person who did not use logic to arrive at their conclusion.

Very true.