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What do atheists "believe" in ?

Started by Anatta, June 10, 2011, 05:54:18 PM

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Anatta

Quote from: Padma on June 11, 2011, 02:53:30 AM
...like the gods :).

Kia Ora Padma,

::) True...Gods of all descriptions can occupy ones mind, if the right seeds are planted and nurtured ! 

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Padma

Quote from: Zenda on June 11, 2011, 03:05:43 AM
Kia Ora Padma,

::) True...Gods of all descriptions can occupy ones mind, if the right seeds are planted and nurtured ! 

Metta Zenda :)
...or if they're all just illusions - part of our collective acid trip, because we'd rather make up pretty colours and miss the real ones? ;D
Womandrogyne™
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Muffins

Though there are many different forms of atheism maybe....in one general word... "tangibility". I view both being at the opposite scale of each other, one saying yes and one saying no.. when really neither has any proof to back up their opinions as they're both based on belief. Atheists need tangibility to accept fact where theists can accept something with no solid evidence. I don't think it's about who's right and who's wrong but more to do with the individual and what that one person needs in order to make themselves content. It's when they try to objectify it that things become problematic. Just accept each others views and opinions and things will be fine!
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Pica Pica

People of faith have the concept of 'revelation' where information is revealed to a person (either by God, or achievement of oneness or whatever). I think a key part of my atheism is to deny that knowledge can be achieved in this way, that it has to be worked for, gained and experienced. However, revelation does make complete sense historically, as the desire for knowledge seems an unquenchable human 'thing' and the means to experiment that more limited in the past. I can certainly see the attraction, it is very difficult to deny the power of the God story, or a desire for revelation itself.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Pica Pica on June 11, 2011, 04:25:39 AM
People of faith have the concept of 'revelation' where information is revealed to a person (either by God, or achievement of oneness or whatever). I think a key part of my atheism is to deny that knowledge can be achieved in this way, that it has to be worked for, gained and experienced.

This seems to be a common theme.  "Faith-based" spiritual doctrines always seem to propose the ability to gain knowledge without evidence or observation, whereas atheists tend to use (or claim to use) scientific methods where ideas like revelation or intuition play a very minor role.

One of the reasons religious arguments are often a waste of time is because theists and atheists cannot even agree on what constitutes sound knowledge.  If one cannot even agree on what constitutes knowledge, it is going to be very difficult to engage any meaningful discussion about the particulars of what one claims to know.

I tend to agree that evidence and data are much more useful than intuition or revelation, with a small possibility that intuition and revelation have absolutely no use at all.
"The cake is a lie."
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tekla

It's too collective for that, far too many people also see it.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

To be an Atheist you first have to start with your feet firmly planted on Terra Firma.  Then you have to firmly believe in facts alone.  If the facts don't prove it exists, then it doesn't exist.  End of story.

It could be argued the belief in God was borne out of ignorance.  Those things humans couldn't understand were explained away by attributing them to a higher power, and "God" was born.  And from that all forms of religious and spiritual beliefs were created.  And they all depended on faith, with facts having little or no place in that belief.  And they were carried on from generation to generation.

As I see it, Atheism requires that you don't use faith but rather simply accept, "Right now, the facts say..." and that's what you believe.  Also it would seem Atheists don't fear death as being "the end" like faith based believers do.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Padma

I don't agree that atheists don't have faith - "atheist" just means they don't believe in a god, there's plenty of scope for faith in other things. To me faith is just what you have when you believe in something but aren't yet certain - i.e. it's what comes before knowledge. So I have very strong faith in the absence of anyone/anything that "created" the universe (because I'm pretty damned sure the universe(s) don't tick that way) - but I don't need to be certain in order to get on with life.

I once took a nice young Mormon to task over his street questionnaire, which amongst other things asked me: "Do you consider yourself spiritual, OR do you consider yourself an atheist?" as if it had to be one or the other. The cheek! :)
Womandrogyne™
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Julie Marie on June 11, 2011, 10:08:18 AMTo be an Atheist you first have to start with your feet firmly planted on Terra Firma.  Then you have to firmly believe in facts alone.  If the facts don't prove it exists, then it doesn't exist.  End of story.

Not end of story, I'm afraid.  The word "atheist" implies only a lack of belief in gods.  It does not imply why one does not believe in gods.  An atheist could have his head up in the clouds as much as a spiritualist, but still not believe in any gods.

I'm afraid that practicing science and logic is not a requirement to be an atheist.

QuoteIt could be argued the belief in God was borne out of ignorance.

Certainly most of what humanity has believed was born out of ignorance.  If I had no knowledge of physics and I walked outside, I would come to the conclusion that being outside causes sunburn.  I would have no way of knowing that it is actually exposure to solar radiation which causes sunburn, or furthermore that the sun itself is very far away.  I would only know that when I go outside I get burned, and when I stay inside I am fine.  The LOGICAL conclusion is that being outside causes sunburn.  Until I gain more data (such as sitting under a tree, or going outside on a cloudy day) I have no way of knowing that my belief is actually false.

I view the origins of most religions as probably developing along these same lines.  At one point in time (admittedly a very long time ago) religion probably was the best explanation we had for how the universe worked.  Someone noticed a correlation between something and proposed a theory of religion which (at the time) seemed reasonable.

As we made more observations and gained even better theories, the older ideas became less and less reasonable, until they became completely nonsensical in the presence of modern science.  But as we have seen, logic and reason often have little to do with why people believe what they believe.  People react to emotion much more strongly than they do to reason.  If you tell someone there is a big invisible man there to protect them, it makes them feel safe.  If you tell them that they are just on a floating rock in space and that their life could be ended any minute by a tornado or an earthquake.... well, nobody really wants to hear that.
"The cake is a lie."
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Padma

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 11, 2011, 10:37:55 AM
People using the word "belief" in different ways is causing some odd conversations in this thread.

Belief (1) - An absolute truth (100% certainty). When a theist says "I believe in god," they generally mean "god exists" not "I think god might exist."

Belief (2) - Something less than an absolute (sub-100% certainty). Often in opposition to a fact. As Padma describes her belief in no creator. Uncertain, but believing.

Oddly enough, I have none of the first and see, well, everything as a component of the second. Such a strange little word is "belief."
Indeedy - personally, I consider belief in any absolutes to be inherently suspicious. It has a smell of desperation about it. On the other hand, doubt (in the positive sense of "creative uncertainty") smells pretty healthy to me. I just have to make sure the main person I'm sniffing is me, since that's where it can do the most good.
Womandrogyne™
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tekla

It could be argued the belief in God was borne out of ignorance.  Those things humans couldn't understand were explained away by attributing them to a higher power, and "God" was born.

Actually, far from ignorance it's evidence of the highest powers of thinking.  It's creative to say the least!  Hell, all science begins as an attempt to, if not find god, at least try to understand god's creation.

All of the stories, the tales, the gospels, epistles, Zen Koans, books, art, music, architecture, and theater that's come from that effort to explain, visualize and celebrate what we don't know pretty much represents the high point of our creative talents.  From Where Sheep May Safely Graze by Bach to Coltrane's A Love Supreme, from The Sistine Chapel* to Piss Christ it's shaped everything we know in Western Art (though it has done the same in all arts, everywhere).  It's Genesis, Exodus and Job, it's the Psalms, the Gospel of John and the Revelation of St. John, the Tao, the Quran, the The Bhagavad Gītā, Greek and Roman (and just about every other culture) Mythology, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, the entire mess of Egyptian funerary traditions and beliefs and architectural including building the pyramids.  (It's also Mayan temples and human sacrifice, but we'll skip that, though highly creative that was too.)

The writing alone represents some of the best writing that's ever been done: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.  Man, I'm hooked, I'm going to keep on reading.  That exactly what they teach in 'great writers school' - start with something so compelling that the reader has to keep on going.

But here's the funny thing, at the end of the day, the god image aside, what all those texts - and all the ones I didn't mention too - say and are about the same thing, and it's not god.  It's this:
'Indeed, We sent Our messengers with evident truth, and We sent down with them the Book and the balance (of right and wrong), so that people might behave with each other with justice.'
(al-Hadid 57: 25)

Though I prefer the version from the Gospel of Thomas (6) where Jesus simply says: and don't do what you hate.  You know, that person you can't stand?  Don't be that guy or girl.  It's the Golden Rule, the principle of reciprocity, it's what Jesus finally said, in total desperation of how stupid everyone was being, when he wiped away all those other laws (and there was a big huge dogpile of them, books and books) and asked if we could possibly just follow one - JUST ONE - simple rule?  It's this:  "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31, KJV).

Every religion, every spiritual system says that.  It's the one supreme thing they ALL agree upon.**  It's proven to be a perfectly obtainable deal.  I've been a part of many communities at times in my life that were places where people lived with each other like that.  It's pretty nice.  Low stress for sure. 

Now I believe (in terms of sense one: Belief (1) - An absolute truth (100% certainty) that when people let that principal guide them, with or without a god, life is better for everyone in just about every way.  As the Tao would have it, life gets done.  I've experienced, and continue to experience that.  I believe (sense two:Belief (2) - Something less than an absolute (sub-100% certainty). Often in opposition to a fact.) that it is possible to do on a large scale, though facts, like 'history' for one set, tends to lower the odds - or at least the optimism.

Black Elk said that"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves.  All is really One."  And all are one, and one is all, as Zep sez.  That huge universe we are apart of, that is us, as we are it: "Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics. You are all stardust. You couldn't be here if stars hadn't exploded."  (Lawrence Krauss).  We're only at the thin beginning of understanding, but what we are learning is that it's all a little bit more than previously envisioned.  We're standing on the edge of time.  It's going to take a while for our eyes to adjust.



* - Click and drag mouse, etc.
http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html

** - here is a list of 21 different faiths/systems saying the exact same thing in only slightly different language:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc3.htm
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Hikari

interesting read so far, for me being an atheist is a bit different than some people it seems, while I don't believe in god, I do believe there are things that science cannot explain in it's current form, that doesn't mean I think any god or other spirituality exists, merely that for me science isn't a replacement for religion, because it is never going to be complete.

Also, science isn't perfect either, since the people performing the scientific method to understand things cannot be perfectly objective, so in a sense science is based on a sense of trust in my view. Do I trust the scientists are following methods impartially, and objectively or not? That question determines their validity to me.

So what fills in the gap between science that is hard to trust (after all while most sceintists say global warming exists, others claim it doesn't, both claim evidence)? For me it is emotion, the same as the reasons I gave up on believing in god in the first place, as self serving as it sounds, if I am not convinced by the science of something I just believe whatever feels right. "God" feels wrong, so I don't believe in god. If there were some scientists cliaming evidence of god, I still wouldn't trust them enough to believe them.

I actually like to view my thoughts as circular logic at it's finest :P
私は女の子 です!My Blog - Hikari's Transition Log http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,377.0.html
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Maddie Secutura

I assert that we need to stop worrying what's "out there" and focus on what's "right here."


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Anatta

Kia Ora,

Oooowooo I just couldn't resist this little story on faith and belief...

To protect the identity of the original story teller [That is, I forgot where I originally read it] I've slightly changed it by replacing one act with another...

"There was once a snake charmer, who was so good that he could charm many deadly poisonous snakes in one go.
Hundreds of people would watch him perform his amazing feat from behind a safety barrier. He would then get his assistant to walk amongst the deadly but docile snakes he had charmed. Everybody was amazed and after he had finished and had put the snakes back into their baskets, they gave him a thunderous applause... He asked them whether they "believed" that he could do it again. The crowd said, "Yes, we "believe" that you can!" After a while he asked the crowd, "Now, who wants to volunteer to be my assistant this time?" With that the crowd became
silent!"

There is a difference between Belief and Faith. We can believe what we see. In the above story, the crowd believed in the snake charmer's ability to charm poisonous snakes because they saw him perform the feat. But when he asked them "Who wants to walk amongst the charmed snakes?" everyone was silent. You see, the crowd had Belief but they did not have Faith. This story clearly illustrates the difference between belief and having faith!"



Or how about this on Science, spirituality, faith, determination and doubt....

"Great Faith and Great Doubt are two ends of a spiritual and or scientific walking stick. We grip one end with the grasp given to us by our Great Determination. We poke into the underbrush in the dark on our spiritual/scientific journey. This act is real spiritual/scientific practice -- gripping the Faith end and poking ahead with the Doubt end of the stick. If we have no Faith, we have no Doubt. If we have no Determination, we never pick up the stick in the first place!"

I guess by just "being" who we are, "faith" along with "belief" does have a role to play in our lives...And how much of a role would depend upon the individual...

Have "faith" in your ability to achieve your goals folks ! I have "faith" in you !

Happy Mindfulness :)

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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kate durcal

Atheists believe annoying believers  >:-)

Kate D
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Pica Pica

I'm glad Tekla mentioned the huge impact faith has had on culture. I have a lot of time for religion, when intelligently practiced, can spur on some of the greatest human achievements.

But I find that there are more awkward questions to accept a world with God than without.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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tekla

The end idea may yet prove correct, but the stories to date are lacking.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Mika

"Atheism" isn't really a positive set of propositions, but rather a negative descriptor: to be an atheist is to not believe in gods. Some do not believe in gods, and identify as atheist, because they hold scientific "objectivity" above intangible claims. Others do not subscribe to theistic beliefs simply because they feel no need, do not want to, or find teachings and practices to not address their needs, experiences, or values. Sometimes both, and I'm sure there are other reasons as well. Atheists hold varying beliefs and value systems, and there are no positive propositions inherent in the label. Western atheism, however, is most commonly associated with faith in science and a secular ethics system, denying not only spiritual beings but also anything non-material. But some atheists still hold faith in the supernatural, be it forces or an afterlife, what have you.

Personally, as an atheist, I acknowledge that accepting my senses/consciousness as an accurate way to experience something that is real and objective outside of myself takes faith. That is one of the first presuppositions everyone must make to function: is everything I experience real? And if so, are my perceptions of it at all related to the actual reality of it? There are infinite answers and non-answers that can be incorporated into a coherant or incoherant worldview. My faith in my perceptions as a more or less accurate experience of a world that does exist outside of myself is where my faith ends. Even that is up to questioning, but it doesn't get very far in the practical world. Interesting, but not very helpful in the cultivation of the self.
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Anatta

Quote from: kate durcal on June 11, 2011, 07:48:55 PM
Atheists believe annoying believers  >:-)

Kate D

Kia Ora,

::) God works in mysterious ways Kate  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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kate durcal

Shalom,

In a serious note, an atheist is: "a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."


    "The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell." [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes,"  1943] 

Kate D
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