This is a question pointed towards those who detransition and then hate anything lgbt. Some i could see trying to hate everything lgbt becuase they are in denial and not going to deal with their issues and taking the short term easy way, long term hard way out, but if you are ''cured'' then why not just be indifferent or relize that not everyone is the same. Now, the number of these people are from what i can tell is very small among the small number who do detransiton. However there is one infamous detransitioner i must say fascinates me in all the wrong ways. That is Walt Heyer. To be honest I used to find his stuff very ''triggering'' and harsh and mean, now i find them laughable at best but generally sad and pity the buggar most of the time. This guy thinks that parents of transgender kids should be put in jail for 20 years, things that children of transgender parents should distance themselves from their parents, or in his words from an article "I believe children should distance themselves from such a mentally disturbed person."
This is a man who transitioned for 8 years (tho even then he wasnt consistant and seemingly lied to the professionals). He lost a career and ended up apprently working at a candy shop at the end of his transition life, he lost his family who shunned him and he said that all hurt. Shouldnt this man have empathy for transgender people who also lose their jobs and family? I mean even though he is either still in deep denial or was never at all a woman shouldnt he have empathy for those struggling?.... Apprently not, infact his hatred of trans people is even more extreme then other transphobes i have seen or heard from in my life.
There are other people who go back to where they were and are not like that Walt guy. Joel Nowak is the best example, havent read all his stuff but he went M2F2M and doesnt blame everyone else for his transition. From what little i have read from him it seems he still beleives that there are people who do need to transition (as is medical fact) and that gender is indeed a spectrum, but does caution those to really think about what they are doing. That sounds like great advice. As opposed to Heyer who is not just someone who dicounts trans people but thinks gender is very binary and rules must be followed.
I know for ever Heyer there are about 10 Nowak's but still, what is that dudes issue?
People like Heyer think that it was someone else who made them decide to transition; as if they had no say in the matter. You can see a gender therapist but they're only there to help you with your gender issues that were already there; not convince you you're transgender and order you to take HRT or surgeries.
And some cis people who don't understand anything about being transgender think the same thing about how transgender children are treated by doctors. That they're forced into taking HRT against their will.
Or people like Heyer probably transition back to the internalised trans phobia and trans phobia from other people becoming too much to deal with.
My thankfully only experiences with hate filled de-transitioners were at the Maryland Senate hearings on the TG rights, aka Bathroom Bill. The loyal opposition dragged out a few of them. I could not believe the vitriol coming from these people for their making "A bad decision", "Being tricked", "misled". Tricked especially by the T community in general. Any number of reasons aside from perhaps their own fault or rushing to find some magic pill to make their life better is what I heard.
I suppose you are right. But it bugs me ya know, i mean that man went through the whole thing in the 1980s and saw first hand what happens, or can happen to someone when they come out of the closet. The experince should have given him empathy for trans people, not hatred. Again I point to Joel Nowak and more stable minded detransitoners who although found that they may be best off as their birth gender still dont trash the T* community and even offer good advice and support.
I suppose however Mr.Heyer was indeed never trans or on the spectrum. I guess he was just lost maybe and was looking for some attention and never found it as a woman, but as a person being converted back to ''manhood'' he gained praise from the far religious right and since then has chummed with them. I guess he is one of the kind of people who never felt he belonged anywhere and now that a very questionable group of people ''accept'' his story, he clings to them. Kind of sad if you ask me.
I don't know much about those mentioned here but i do know that de-transition is very rare so these are all outliers. I do also know that there are blogs or articles out there written from a "Christian" perspective on those that decide to de-transition and then you have the complexity of religion thrown in there.
Like you point out though most who decide to go this path are not out to entice others to do the same.
One day before our therapy session started, I was listening to our senior MTF advisor in a discussion where she was trying to talk somebody else out of smoking. There was so much hate in her voice about smoking that I said to her that she was a former smoker. She didn't deny it so it appears the way she was able to kick the habit was to hate it. Many former smokers find the only way to quit is to find something they hate about the habit and use that image as a tool to quit the habit. In the cause of a person detransitioning, something in their life force their detransition through hate and they feel because it wasn't right for them, it's not right for everybody. This fails to take into account that people are different and what is right for one person may not be right for others. Not everybody force their view point on others but the people you are discussing do.
I saw a show quite a while back about a transwomen who fell in with some church group and they talked her into detransitioning. They really kind of brainwashed her. Telling her she would burn in hell, blah, blah and to detransition to save her soul. They even raised the money for surgery to have her breast implants removed. Seems like religious nuts have the most problems with trans people which is rich considering some of the most perverted people in the world are bible thumpers.
I don't think that Heyer should draw broad conclusions from his personal experience and try to apply them to everyone else. We're all different.
That said, I get uncomfortable with referring to him as a "man" (in quotes). He is who he says he is. Let him self-identify. No quotation marks necessary.
Quote from: Julia1996 on June 18, 2017, 02:08:42 PM
I saw a show quite a while back about a transwomen who fell in with some church group and they talked her into detransitioning. They really kind of brainwashed her. Telling her she would burn in hell, blah, blah and to detransition to save her soul. They even raised the money for surgery to have her breast implants removed. Seems like religious nuts have the most problems with trans people which is rich considering some of the most perverted people in the world are bible thumpers.
I don't agree with people imposing their religious conclusions on other people either. The thing is, it's not always easy to tell when it is coercive. When we, in SP, encourage others here to "live their truth", we call it support and education. When religious people encourage others to detransition, they are also doing so on the basis of aligning with personal truth. We just disagree about what it is. I prefer the "to each their own" approach of secularism, but I recognize that the contrasts aren't as sharp as we would often wish.
Why do a small number of people who haven't started become hateful?
Why do a small number of people who start HRT become hateful?
Why do a small number of people who have GRS become hateful?
Why do a small number of people put scare quotes around another's identity?
I think youre just grasping for a topic here....
Becoming hateful toward others is the part of the process of refusing to take responsibility for one's own actions, failures or weaknesses. If you are not to blame, someone else must be.
But people deal in different ways. Most people approach failure or disappointment in more healthy ways than obsessive hate.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 18, 2017, 03:36:28 PM
I think youre just grasping for a topic here....
Think whatever your heart desires, this has been on my mind for a week or so.
Back to the original topic. rmaddy you are right, that wasnt fair of me to use quotation marks. my bad, i will change that. Again, sorry to those offended for that.
I suppose you're right Viktor, you and a few others here have hit it on the head. It is more of a reflection on some that try to pin their choices on others, in a way scapegoating. Thanks for the input <3
Quote from: Julia1996 on June 18, 2017, 02:08:42 PM
I saw a show quite a while back about a transwomen who fell in with some church group and they talked her into detransitioning. They really kind of brainwashed her. Telling her she would burn in hell, blah, blah and to detransition to save her soul. They even raised the money for surgery to have her breast implants removed. Seems like religious nuts have the most problems with trans people which is rich considering some of the most perverted people in the world are bible thumpers.
I saw this as well. The show was about Josef Kirschner who has a very checkered past. I e-mail him when he was Judy and I was in denial. Now I am she and he is unique, a male with a vagina, according to his website when it was up and running. I have not heard from him for several years now.
There are always people who deny that we have a very real problem. That was me for over 50 years. We should not blame conservative religious groups exclusively. There are plenty of others who do not want to recognize us as well. I came to accept myself for what I am and I will try to do my best at what ever I chose to do. If someone doesn't like me, then so be it. Maybe I will not change them, but they are definitely not going to change me. I already did that. ;)
Quote from: Dani on June 18, 2017, 05:22:54 PM
Now I am she and he is unique, a male with a vagina, according to his website when it was up and running.
Rare but not unique. We have had this come up more than once in the time I have been on Susan's. Most only wanted the surgery and had no intention of transitioning or even having HRT. The intent was to remain on testosterone and have none of the estrogen body changes.
Quote from: Dena on June 18, 2017, 06:18:54 PM
Rare but not unique. We have had this come up more than once in the time I have been on Susan's. Most only wanted the surgery and had no intention of transitioning or even having HRT. The intent was to remain on testosterone and have none of the estrogen body changes.
Intresting... To each there own. Personally as much as I would love to get surgery I would find not doing the actual social transition to female such a shame. I mean that is really the best part. to live!
Quote from: Viktor on June 18, 2017, 03:56:34 PM
Becoming hateful toward others is the part of the process of refusing to take responsibility for one's own actions, failures or weaknesses. If you are not to blame, someone else must be.
But people deal in different ways. Most people approach failure or disappointment in more healthy ways than obsessive hate.
I think this is part of it, but I also think many conform to what they believe the larger society wants. If they're exposed to many people that are transphobic, it shouldn't surprise us that some will cave to that pressure and then emulate it.
Whether these people who detransition are more hateful than other transphobes, I'm not sure. There are many very hateful transphobic people in the world that haven't detransitioned.
Paige :)
Perhaps they were transphobic before, and if going back means going back to the way they thought before, that comes with it.
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on June 19, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Perhaps they were transphobic before, and if going back means going back to the way they thought before, that comes with it.
I guess you are right. Hard to love yourself when you already hated yourself eh?? some people need help
I know that if I was forced to go back, I would hate myself, and everyone else. At least, that would be the case until my death. Fortunately, I think I have gone through enough that that won't happen.
I've recently begun to detransition so I understand that struggle, at least what I know of it so far. The reality is that there's not much support going towards people who detransition, neither within the medical field nor any communities. Many (lgbt and cishet alike) like to just sweap us under the carpet cause our struggles are deemed "inconvenient" or "too controversial". We are very few and far between with many different reasons for stopping and/or reversing transition so it's difficult to build a sustainable community together, I think, but some do try. Many also tend to receive a lot of backlash from others, getting our voices silenced from all directions, etc. With living with those kind struggles on top of the medical and social detransitioning process being very harsh in itself, I have a lot of understanding for why some of us become angry and lash out. But I don't think it's reasonable to attack the very concept of transsexualism/being trans due to that. But my point is that the fault doesn't only lie on the detransitioners for being hateful, cause they likely have a lot to deal with facing hate themselves and basically not having anywhere to turn for support. It doesn't excuse transphobia, but I think it's a pretty good explanation for why it happens.
I both got and gave a lot of support in the trans community and felt a connection to it during my own transition. Sadly I think it's the only community I've ever felt any sense of belonging to. So I'm not keen on leaving it but I know I should cause I'm cis. Can still be in the lgbt community though cause I'm pretty sure I'm bisexual.
My story is actually very similar to Walt Heyer's though, as I was also transitioning for about as long as him, 9 years actually so that's longer than his 8 years. And for pretty much the same reasons. I also have DID or some form if it, was traumatised as a kid and growing up, I also lied to my therapists about my past. I also lived as totally the other binary gender, went on hrt, had surgery, etc. I went FtMtF while he went MtFtM though. But my opinions on the trans community did not turn sour. I don't feel contempt towards the trans community as a whole at all, and I still think being trans is a real thing that affects a lot of people, and that they should be allowed and able to transition. Transitioning has a much higher success rate than failure rate. I still consider myself transmed and supportive. So my conclusion is pretty much the opposite to Walt's conclusion, but our stories up until that point do seem to be very similar. I just think that's a bit fascinating or something, which is why I brought it up. My similarities with him. I suppose that despite me being a lot younger than him, I'm both wiser and more mature though.
I don't like to throw blame around, but if there's anyone I should blame it's myself. Like I shouldn't have lied to my therapists and I should have dealt with my trauma first instead of just jumping head first into medical transition. I had even read about the very real risks of people with untreated DID getting hrt and surgery and why it's very discouraged by the medical field, but I ignored it. So I think it would be very unfair and unreasonable of me to blame an entire demographic of people for my own personal mistakes. Because I simply see my own detransition as a misdiagnosis and a medical mishap, a personal ordeal that I don't bring politics or my religion into, it's easy for me to be fine with trans people. It's not up to me to decide what is right for anyone but myself.
Apparently I'm not so good at deciding what's right for myself either, considering this mess. But I am pretty good at taking responsibility for my own actions and admitting I made a mistake, and I'm getting increasingly better at being honest with myself, which I've been working on hard for a while now and it's paying off. Now it feels like a relief to just say "I was wrong".
Wow septagon. I am so sorry about your past truamas . No body, let alone a kid should ever face the type of things you did. I all really admire you being an adult about the situation and taking responsibilities of your actions in your adulthood years making decisions as an adult. No judgements here that shows strong character and is very admirable!
Yeah I made this post over a year ago due to many questions I had. I have met only like 3 other people who detransitioned probably within this last post time frame but all of which are still open minded and not harsh towards the community. In the case of Heyer it's easy to see why he gets a lot of attention. He makes bogus claims and preach exactly what the religious right finds acceptable. Result we hear his stories (which causes great Mayhem and division as it pits in educated cos people thinking we're all mentally ill as Heyer would say and makes probably many trans people uneasy around people who detransition as the stigma Heyer makes affects all) vs a story like yours which shows you're just trying to be and figure out who you are and try and live in harmony.
Again thank you for taking you're time, you're a very strong person!!
People will always support seemingly conflicting and unsupportable positions using people that show up for their cause. Those pursuing the culture war and wanting to be transphobic will use people this for those ends. The science doesn't support it, the data doesn't support it, which leaves quasi-religious arguments that rarely make sense to debate.
It's a tiny minority of detransition folks that take the position that nobody should be supported in transition. Their journey is valid and should be supported, but it is their journey. Groups like the American Pediatric College were created to make a transphobic smoke screen. Fortunately, momentum is generally with us on this.
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on July 26, 2018, 11:28:27 AM
Wow septagon. I am so sorry about your past truamas . No body, let alone a kid should ever face the type of things you did. I all really admire you being an adult about the situation and taking responsibilities of your actions in your adulthood years making decisions as an adult. No judgements here that shows strong character and is very admirable!
Yeah I made this post over a year ago due to many questions I had. I have met only like 3 other people who detransitioned probably within this last post time frame but all of which are still open minded and not harsh towards the community. In the case of Heyer it's easy to see why he gets a lot of attention. He makes bogus claims and preach exactly what the religious right finds acceptable. Result we hear his stories (which causes great Mayhem and division as it pits in educated cos people thinking we're all mentally ill as Heyer would say and makes probably many trans people uneasy around people who detransition as the stigma Heyer makes affects all) vs a story like yours which shows you're just trying to be and figure out who you are and try and live in harmony.
Again thank you for taking you're time, you're a very strong person!!
I've definitely been through a lot, and sometimes I even wonder how the heck I managed to get all the way into adulthood with that kind of baggage. I really do think I'm on a road to healing and self-acceptance now though.
I really just can't help myself but answer the curious questions others have, when I just so happen to sit on an answer. Even though it's of course subjective in this case, I still like to give my contribution to an interesting topic, and also I never feel offended by anything. I think that too comes with the package of having been through a lot. I got rough skin.
Thank you for your support as well! I kept hearing that supposedly the trans community is super angsty against any and all detransitioning people, but that's not been my experience so far at all. Everyone has been so sweet and caring. So that must be a myth, as far as I'm concerned ;)
I don't think detransitioned people are all that common, as we're kind of a minority of a minority, in a sense. Or well, there aren't even any clearly reliable statistics on how many percent do detransition, but I keep hearing it's around 2% of all who transition. So it doesn't surprise me you haven't met many who have gone that "there and back again" route. I haven't either. Just a few people. Although more are finding me now that I talk about my own experience, which I think is very nice, that I get to connect a bit with others who are going through the same thing. Makes me feel less lonely about it.
Yeah, Heyer really does seem like he has a lot of unfunded opinions... It's hard for me to think that anyone who's transitioned and lived as the other sex and known that pain and struggle, even though they detransition, to just turn their backs on the community like that. Well he's probably a very bitter man. And I think you make a good point about him basically giving bad reputation to people who detransition, also because there are so few of us and we don't really have a coherent community so not easy to fight together against opinions like Heyer's. Like we don't have a platform like the trans community does. Someone oughta do something about that, I think... I can probably be opinionated as well at times, but I tend to remember that usually, people know themselves better than I know them.
You're welcome, and thank you for your kind words!
This does touch upon a very real issue... that... well, to be frank I've noticed happen here a bit. People show up and ask "Am I trans?", "What does this mean?", etc... And many of the responses are "You sound trans to me." There are many things that can manifest as those symptoms, and I do believe it is irresponsible for strangers to push a narrative based on their own experiences. I recall one poster that scared the hell out of me, because I saw in her every last telltale sign of severe OCD and latching onto the idea she might be trans more than actually manifesting either dysphoria driven "symptoms" or non-dysphoria driven "symptoms". Unfortunately, a few people, in good faith but I believe irresponsibly, replied with very definitive "You're trans" responses. I was concerned enough I contacted mods to keep an eye on the situation. While comparing experiences can be a very valid thing, a very important thing(Ie: "I did this, this, and this as a child." "I don't know if you're trans, only you and your therapist can work that out, but I did those same things."), the blanket "cis people don't question their gender" statement is... simplistic. I believe that "healthy" (used very relative) cis people do not question their gender. Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are not "healthy" in that respect, who are cis and do. Likewise for those who may seek a full binary transition but prefer to be in the middle, agender, fluid, or non-binary.
Also, I believe unequivocally supporting detransitioners and understanding WHY they are destransitioning is integral for our future, for progressing our understanding of what it means to be trans or the complications that can lead to a mistaken or transitory trans identity.
I also believe that detransitioners are VERY MUCH still part of the community. The trans vs cis label does not matter. I believe this is a community not built on those labels, but built on shared experiences. Experience that in the overwhelming majority, shapes compassion and kindness. In other words, once you're family, you're family, and I see no reason that detransitioners shouldn't be given every bit the same love and acceptance as everyone else.
Quote from: SeptagonScars on August 12, 2018, 06:01:12 PMI don't think detransitioned people are all that common, as we're kind of a minority of a minority, in a sense. Or well, there aren't even any clearly reliable statistics on how many percent do detransition, but I keep hearing it's around 2% of all who transition.
Another point of reference:
Our couple's psychologist has worked with transgender people since the late 1970's/early 80's. She shared with my wife and me that she has known many whose transitioned failed. And that her research showed a solid one third of transgender people detransition. Our doctor explained gender variance is fairly common. But for most people, peace comes from finding a way to do that in their birth gender.
Living as a person's "Authentic Self" is a wonderful goal. Sadly there are often obstacles that make this impossible. When I started therapy back in 2009 my GT explained there are three different human needs drive Gender Dysphoria; social acceptance, acceptance of how we look and acceptance of who we are. Therapy is vital for a person to explorer these needs so they cab determine whether transition will fill them or make them worse.
Quote from: Roll on August 12, 2018, 06:33:43 PM
This does touch upon a very real issue... that... well, to be frank I've noticed happen here a bit. People show up and ask "Am I trans?", "What does this mean?", etc... And many of the responses are "You sound trans to me." There are many things that can manifest as those symptoms, and I do believe it is irresponsible for strangers to push a narrative based on their own experiences. I recall one poster that scared the hell out of me, because I saw in her every last telltale sign of severe OCD and latching onto the idea she might be trans more than actually manifesting either dysphoria driven "symptoms" or non-dysphoria driven "symptoms". Unfortunately, a few people, in good faith but I believe irresponsibly, replied with very definitive "You're trans" responses. I was concerned enough I contacted mods to keep an eye on the situation. While comparing experiences can be a very valid thing, a very important thing(Ie: "I did this, this, and this as a child." "I don't know if you're trans, only you and your therapist can work that out, but I did those same things."), the blanket "cis people don't question their gender" statement is... simplistic. I believe that "healthy" (used very relative) cis people do not question their gender. Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are not "healthy" in that respect, who are cis and do. Likewise for those who may seek a full binary transition but prefer to be in the middle, agender, fluid, or non-binary.
I used to be very pro-therapy in order to weed out the people with comorbid issues, but got sick of being told I was promoting gatekeepers - often by people who were clearly in need. I also had a habit of making the comment "No idea, I can't answer that, only you can." but that also received negative responses. So now I don't bother commenting on those threads at all and have stopped reading then, lest the comments cause me to permanently cringe. I think they do more harm than good. And don't get me started on the "Do I pass?" threads - they are a whole other story.
Quote from: Roll on August 12, 2018, 06:33:43 PM
This does touch upon a very real issue... that... well, to be frank I've noticed happen here a bit. People show up and ask "Am I trans?", "What does this mean?", etc... And many of the responses are "You sound trans to me." There are many things that can manifest as those symptoms, and I do believe it is irresponsible for strangers to push a narrative based on their own experiences. I recall one poster that scared the hell out of me, because I saw in her every last telltale sign of severe OCD and latching onto the idea she might be trans more than actually manifesting either dysphoria driven "symptoms" or non-dysphoria driven "symptoms". Unfortunately, a few people, in good faith but I believe irresponsibly, replied with very definitive "You're trans" responses. I was concerned enough I contacted mods to keep an eye on the situation. While comparing experiences can be a very valid thing, a very important thing(Ie: "I did this, this, and this as a child." "I don't know if you're trans, only you and your therapist can work that out, but I did those same things."), the blanket "cis people don't question their gender" statement is... simplistic. I believe that "healthy" (used very relative) cis people do not question their gender. Unfortunately, there are far too many people who are not "healthy" in that respect, who are cis and do. Likewise for those who may seek a full binary transition but prefer to be in the middle, agender, fluid, or non-binary.
Also, I believe unequivocally supporting detransitioners and understanding WHY they are destransitioning is integral for our future, for progressing our understanding of what it means to be trans or the complications that can lead to a mistaken or transitory trans identity.
I also believe that detransitioners are VERY MUCH still part of the community. The trans vs cis label does not matter. I believe this is a community not built on those labels, but built on shared experiences. Experience that in the overwhelming majority, shapes compassion and kindness. In other words, once you're family, you're family, and I see no reason that detransitioners shouldn't be given every bit the same love and acceptance as everyone else.
Extremely well said.
Quote from: PurplePelican on August 12, 2018, 08:34:49 PM
I used to be very pro-therapy in order to weed out the people with comorbid issues, but got sick of being told I was promoting gatekeepers - often by people who were clearly in need.
I remember realizing that many of the things I do and say that upset my wife are the very same things my parents did to me that traumatized me as a child. In tears I said to my psychologist that I was "exactly like my Mother." She told me there was a HUGE different. That "there are two kinds of people in the world. Those who decide to therapy...and those who don't." When the pupil is ready the teacher will appear. There is no speeding the process.
Quote from: Virginia on August 12, 2018, 07:14:59 PM
Another point of reference:
Our couple's psychologist has worked with transgender people since the late 1970's/early 80's. She shared with my wife and me that she has known many whose transitioned failed. And that her research showed a solid one third of transgender people detransition. Our doctor explained gender variance is fairly common. But for most people, peace comes from finding a way to do that in their birth gender.
Living as a person's "Authentic Self" is a wonderful goal. Sadly there are often obstacles that make this impossible. When I started therapy back in 2009 my GT explained there are three different human needs drive Gender Dysphoria; social acceptance, acceptance of how we look and acceptance of who we are. Therapy is vital for a person to explorer these needs so they cab determine whether transition will fill them or make them worse.
Excuse me to be sceptical of that a third would detransition, at least on a larger, world wide scale. Many detransitioners do not come forward about it but simply stop showing up for gender therapy sessions, stop taking hrt, etc. So not easy to keep track of all detransitioners to even conduct studies. Very few actual, reliable studies have been done to see how many detransition. It's possible however that your couple's psychologist has one of those few studies that have been conducted, however reliable that one may or may not be.
The 2% estimation was found from a study that was done in the Netherlands (or if it was nother neighbouring country) along with a study that estimated around 0,03% of the population transition in the first place. It's an old study though but as far as I've been able to find, is the only that can be considered at least somewhat reliable as a guesstimation. Any source saying how many detransition should be taken with a huge grain of salt, I think.
There have been more studies done check how satisfied people in general are with having transitioned though, and among adult participants in those studies, it has been found that the majority of transitioned people are more satisfied then than they were prior to transitioning. However, someone can be dissatisfied with their transition without detransitioning or having been misdiagnosed. Things can go wrong for many different reasons. It's a lot of factors playing into it. Like really a lot of factors. Therapy is definitely a good thing to get, I'll always preach that one.
I'd actually say it's more important to strive to finding what is your authentic self than living it, cause actually figuring out what that is, I think is a life-long journey, and the journey towards it more important than the goal of getting there. If that makes sense.
Quote from: SeptagonScars on August 13, 2018, 12:16:06 PMI'd actually say it's more important to strive to finding what is your authentic self than living it, cause actually figuring out what that is, I think is a life-long journey, and the journey towards it more important than the goal of getting there. If that makes sense.
Yes, this makes sense. There is an old saying that once a person discovers the root of suffering their pain is immensely decreased. Often suffering is often more the result of our fear of the unknown than the object itself.
Quote from: PurplePelican on August 12, 2018, 08:34:49 PM
I used to be very pro-therapy in order to weed out the people with comorbid issues, but got sick of being told I was promoting gatekeepers - often by people who were clearly in need. I also had a habit of making the comment "No idea, I can't answer that, only you can." but that also received negative responses. So now I don't bother commenting on those threads at all and have stopped reading then, lest the comments cause me to permanently cringe. I think they do more harm than good. And don't get me started on the "Do I pass?" threads - they are a whole other story.
It is always an emotional, contentious issue for sure. I definitely believe that professionals should work with people and trust them (self identification issue), but also offer caution to give it a little bit of time rather than "Well, my first appointment is half over, can I have my prescription now?" (ensuring that it is *INFORMED* consent) simply as a matter of due diligence. Ultimately though, it does rely on an honest doctor-patient relationship, and there will always be misdiagnosis(sadly, all medicine is not exactly as precise as we'd like) so it will never be 100% . I believe that strangers acting in a decisive capacity over the internet is the part I take issue, and that the "only you can say" response is the best one. While I will not acknowledge the twisted, hateful arguments made by certain anti-trans ideologies, the more broad concept of peer pressure is a bad thing in any situation and I think may even actually infringe on self identification as it is a psychological effect that shapes a choice. (This plays into one of my greatest conflicts with the unmentioned anti-trans groups, as I believe they do a grave disservice and twist these issues to fit their narratives, creating a stigma surrounding something that should have none.)
TLDR: I wish people would leave the definitive calls out of replies until the individual themselves declares what they are. Better to let the informed consent model do its thing without our amateur diagnosis. (Which goes both ways, and no one should say "I dont think you are trans" either.)
Some people have issues with social acceptance and see transitioning as a way to become accepted in society. And they become angry when they discover that it is even harder to become accepted when you are TG and there is no way to get back to where they used to be.
The problem in this case is that all focus is on gender issues and not enough on the big picture of the individual.
In the state that I live in, mental health and disability services for children go away when they turn 18. Which can lead to incredibly cruel social isolation, as they no longer go to school or have the social skills to find work. Everyone is looking for "people persons" for all jobs. Transitioning may seem like a reasonable option for a social outcast with poor social skills and no job prospects.
Quote from: Roll on August 12, 2018, 06:33:43 PM
Also, I believe unequivocally supporting detransitioners and understanding WHY they are destransitioning is integral for our future, for progressing our understanding of what it means to be trans or the complications that can lead to a mistaken or transitory trans identity.
I also believe that detransitioners are VERY MUCH still part of the community. The trans vs cis label does not matter. I believe this is a community not built on those labels, but built on shared experiences. Experience that in the overwhelming majority, shapes compassion and kindness. In other words, once you're family, you're family, and I see no reason that detransitioners shouldn't be given every bit the same love and acceptance as everyone else.
This is very kind of you to say, and I agree. I also think that understanding why some detransition can be very beneficial to not just detransitioners but also to trans people in general. But it also saddens me that quite often detransitioners are used against the trans community instead. I wish it wasn't so.
I kinda feel like I have one foot in the trans community, and the other in the cis world, but that I don't quite fit into either now. I consider myself to be cis, but most other cis people don't know much at all about detransition or how that journey affects me. And although I share that journey with many trans people and experience a form of dysphoria (towards my transitioned traits), my gender aligning with my birth sex makes me feel a bit like an intruder in the trans community. I feel like I'm in a sense (unintentionally) blurring the line between trans and cis. So I think it's complicated, but I stay here showing respect and compassion, and only wish for the same in return.
I honestly think that people like yourself are probably one of the most important pieces of the puzzle in all of this that has not been given the proper due. Those who become disillusioned with everything and turn hostile are so caught up in their own pain, understandably, that they are not in a place to offer impartial insights. Those who simply step away, no longer feeling like they belong may have very value insights that are lost for it. I think those insights are sorely needed.