Something was said to me last night that got me thinking. I consider myself an androgyne, and I have taken steps to be more in the middle gender-wise in day-to-day interactions. But I also like to play, and at times I will get "dressed" and be as girly as I want to be, or I will get butch and play macho dude. It's fun for a while, but then I find myself swinging back toward the middle. Anyway, I was at a party last night, and found myself talking to a fairly new friend. We have been to some of the same functions lately, and he has seen me dressed, as well as more masculine. He told me flat out he envied me. He said I was a cute guy, but when I was dressed all he saw was a woman. He compared it to himself (he is a part-time drag queen) and my boyfriend (fairly well-known drag queen--for this city). He said even when they were dressed, you could still see the "boy" underneath. When he looked at me, all he saw was "woman".
It's perhaps the best compliment I have ever received. But I've been thinking since then if maybe I should consider myself more bi-gender than "just androgynous".
I don't know. What do you think?
As far as why it's important to me, I think it's because labels and words have power, so I want to be as accurate as possible when describing myself. And I wonder where I fit in in this wonderful mish-mash of non-binary people I have grown rather fond of.
Thank you guys in advance for your thoughtful replies.
And I don't mind thread-jacking. :laugh:
Perhaps you're a bit of a chameleon and you take on whichever gender role your subconscious feels is appropriate at the time?
Doesn't sound like it to me. You sound like one of our everyday, garden variety androgynes. Sorry, hon. :angel:
Bigender is someone who identifies as more than one soul.
"While an androgynous person retains the same gender-typed behaviour across situations, the bigendered person consciously or unconsciously changes their gender-role behaviour from primarily masculine to primarily feminine, or vice versa."
More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender)
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Ok, cool!! That's what I thought, but I wanted someone else's take on it. As far as being a chameleon, I've actually talked to my therapist about it. I told her I could fit in anywhere, from a biker bar to a tea party. She thought that was a good trait to have. I have to agree, it's served me well.
Wait, emerald, this is getting confusing-ish.
Quote from: jenga on December 10, 2008, 03:41:03 PM
Ok, cool!! That's what I thought, but I wanted someone else's take on it. As far as being a chameleon, I've actually talked to my therapist about it. I told her I could fit in anywhere, from a biker bar to a tea party. She thought that was a good trait to have. I have to agree, it's served me well.
Wait, emerald, this is getting confusing-ish.
Yeah, it is getting a bit confusing.. I always saw androgyne as being someone who either always behaved/presented androgynously, or someone who switched off - had 'male' days and 'female' days.
Everyone I've come across who called themselves 'bigender' identified as being two separate people and used plural pronouns and names. So that's what I always thought bigender was.
Well, according to the wiki link from Emerald, both are correct. Multiples also consider themselves bi-gender. Ah, it's so simple now. :embarrassed:
I go to biker bars, I go out in drag. What's the deal?
I was just going to add that there is no reason why you can't own 'bigender' if you wanted. I think everything is a little woolier in the grey. Sounds like androgyne or gender queer or third gendered or even gender fluid would fit too.
Most bi-gendered people I have known were multiplicities though. Occassionaly you get someone who swings from male to female but don't reside in the middle, maybe they could be considered bigendered too?
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2008, 04:49:41 PM
I go to biker bars, I go out in drag. What's the deal?
:laugh:Ilove it!! That fits me to a "T"!!!
Quote from: jenga on December 10, 2008, 02:53:08 PM
It's perhaps the best compliment I have ever received. But I've been thinking since then if maybe I should consider myself more bi-gender than "just androgynous".
I don't know. What do you think?
Just go with whatever label feels right to you Jenga. Of course, it's likely subject to change, mine does, about every other day or so :laugh: And yes, that's an awesome complement!
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2008, 04:49:41 PM
I go to biker bars, I go out in drag. What's the deal?
Tekla, I think you're your own, one of a kind, special gender ;D
Z
No, I'm just freer to move within groups. When I was a little kitty Kat I had a long talk with the person who was my spiritual advisor at the time and whined and sniveled that 'I really didn't fit in anywhere' (it wasn't true, but still....) and she told me that if that was true, then I was free to go anywhere as it would all be pretty much the same. She was right.
If I'm at the biker bar (called, The Wagon Wheel) I talk about political stuff, power tools, music and bands, and football, in particular what a jerk Al Davis is. When I'm at tea I talk about politics, music, fashion and what a jerk Al Davis is (Al Davis being a jerk is a universal topic in the Bay Area).
I'm lucky, in that over the years, no matter how bad your taste in music is, I've worked with people you like - so that helps.
And some days I feel like leather and levis, other days, its lavender and lace - I blame sunspots.
Quote from: tekla on December 11, 2008, 09:14:10 AM
No, I'm just freer to move within groups. When I was a little kitty Kat I had a long talk with the person who was my spiritual advisor at the time and whined and sniveled that 'I really didn't fit in anywhere' (it wasn't true, but still....) and she told me that if that was true, then I was free to go anywhere as it would all be pretty much the same. She was right.
That's the truth!
Quote
I'm lucky, in that over the years, no matter how bad your taste in music is, I've worked with people you like - so that helps.
I think musicians are their own breed of misfits. Whenever I'm dealing with the rest of the world, I pretty much feel like a visitor from another planet. Of course, there are circles of musicians where I feel that too...
Quote
And some days I feel like leather and levis, other days, its lavender and lace - I blame sunspots.
In my case, perhaps it was too many drugs, LOL. I've heard somewhere that pot has feminizing effects.
Z
I think musicians are their own breed of misfits. Whenever I'm dealing with the rest of the world, I pretty much feel like a visitor from another planet. Of course, there are circles of musicians where I feel that too...
True that, but I was thinking more of talking to civilians about whatever band they happen to like (which tends to be 'ick' - but I hide that reaction). Musicians are as bad as stagehands (almost) in not really liking anything (or at least anything you've ever heard of). I have a friend who was introduced by his cousin once as "This is my uncle Bill, he hates music." Though not fair, its easy to see how the kid got to thinking that.
I've heard somewhere that pot has feminizing effects.
If that were true I'd be way beyond HRT/SRS by now, LOL.
I consider myself Bi-gendered, but I think that it can be used synonymously with Androgynous... or would that be called Tri-gendered? :laugh:
If when In boy mode you feel like a boy and when in girl mode you feel like a girl then bigender may fit if you normaly feel in the middle and sometimes boy and sometimes girl then trigender or fluid what you are is all about how you feel not how you look being able to pass as either is just lucky.
if your gender is a few dots on a line and you are always in one of those dots then if there are two dots yes bigender if you slide between those points then you are fluid. welcome to susan's I don't think i've seen you here b4
I am Bi-gendered but I wish to live as Androgynous, for some reason that appeals to me the most- however, I'd like to be able to freely change my gender when the urge comes over me.
Sometimes, I just completely forget that I'm a guy and think I'm a girl, until I see myself in the mirror. It's kind of weird...
Quote from: Mazarine_Sky on December 11, 2008, 03:28:48 PM
I am Bi-gendered but I wish to live as Androgynous, for some reason that appeals to me the most- however, I'd like to be able to freely change my gender when the urge comes over me.
Sometimes, I just completely forget that I'm a guy and think I'm a girl, until I see myself in the mirror. It's kind of weird...
I get that sometimes, except I'm a girl...
I'm writing a few things at the moment, all of which feature male characters who have share some personality traits with me. If I spend enough time writing, imagining these guys, I start to feel very male, and then I will look in the mirror, or need the toilet or something, and suddenly realise.
It's odd.
I behave in a rather bi (or tri) gendered way. In the privacy of my room I'm pretty male (so most of the time), when I go out day-to-day, androgynous, and when I go on nights out, feminine.
It can be hard trying to find a balance...
Now that we have an active thread about bigender, and Emerald was nice enough to add a pointer to Wikipedia, I'd like to ask you -- especially those who consider themselves bigender -- to look at the corresponding entry (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Bigender) at Susan's wiki. I already did some initial re-editing based on stuff that has changed in Wikipedia in the last couple of years, but any insights you might share are appreciated.
Nfr
Quote from: Kinkly on December 11, 2008, 02:42:00 PM
If when In boy mode you feel like a boy and when in girl mode you feel like a girl then bigender may fit if you normaly feel in the middle and sometimes boy and sometimes girl then trigender or fluid what you are is all about how you feel not how you look being able to pass as either is just lucky.
if your gender is a few dots on a line and you are always in one of those dots then if there are two dots yes bigender if you slide between those points then you are fluid. welcome to susan's I don't think i've seen you here b4
Kinkly, Thank you for the welcome. I like the explanation you gave regarding fluid or tri-gender. I don't really identify with the concept of tri-gender, but gender-fluid as a concept works for me pretty well. I do tend to feel myself usually in the middle, which is why I consider myself an androgyne, but I do dearly love to play all along the spectrum. For example, I actually went to my support group's banquet as a boy last night. I had loads of fun, and felt quite priviledged to be able to be a supportive gentleman to several of the ladies. Next time, I'll be dressed to the nines giving them make-up tips. And at all times I feel quite authentically myself. And truthfully, it's only been since I discovered the concept of androgyne and the sometimes sparse info on the web that I have given myself permission to explore "beyond the binary" and found ways to have fun with it.
Aaaggrrr... Labels again... What about "AmbiGendered"? As in ambidextrous?
Quote from: Jade H on December 16, 2008, 04:31:48 AM
Aaaggrrr... Labels again... What about "AmbiGendered"? As in ambidextrous?
Sorry!! I'm not trying to offend anyone or stick a label on anyone other than myself.
I do like the ambi-gender label though. I am ambidextrous, so it follows that I could easily use that term to describe myself to others and be fairly confident of expressing my identity in an accurate way.
Thank you!
Quote from: jenga on December 16, 2008, 02:58:48 PM
Sorry!! I'm not trying to offend anyone or stick a label on anyone other than myself.
No offence taken - What I was trying to express (tongue-in-cheek) was simply that I feel very much like you do... ;) I don't fit into the usual "categories" - I'm just ME...
I suppose, for reasons of sanity, even if it's just for oneself... I don't know if it's been used before and adding another LABEL to the gender variant spectrum (going to be shot down for that...) AmbiGendered just sounds comfortable for ME... at this stage... :)
that ok Jade I wont shoot, how do you define AmbiGendered
Untill I found a label that fit I felt very lonely not fitting any where so I'm more then willing to point anyone toward a label that fits them
Quote from: Kinkly on December 17, 2008, 06:36:42 AM
...how do you define AmbiGendered...
I'm still trying to work it out myself!
But, if I'm put on the spot...
It would be one who presents (and feels) 50% of the time as a "classic" Androgyne - total ambiguity, totally gender neutral. But with the "gender fluidity" of one who's bi-gendered, but never close to the extremes... Let's say (for definition's sake) 25% of the time the person may present as a slightly effeminate male (maximum male side of the AmbiGendered scale = 75% male) and the remaining 25% of the time presents (or can present) as a slightly butch female (maximum female side of the AmbiGendered scale = 75% female)
...This is beginning to sound confusing and too restricting/structured...
Ok, let's make it simpler - an Androgyne who sometimes (depending on mood or situation) takes on more of a defined female or male persona...???
Me - I'm usually not addressed as "Sir" or "M'am" by people that I casually meet for the first time, there's just a slight pause where "Sir or Madam" would usually be used - which suits me fine.
If my SO and I go out (for supper/movie etc.) and I'm feeling a little feminine, chances are (dressed as I am to suit my mood) I'll be "M'amed" the whole time - which suits me fine.
If I have a business meeting (Male orientated industry) with men, I'll (try to) "butch up" a bit and I'll be "Sir'ed" - which suits me fine. Client meetings with women - they're not as judgemental - I (try to) fit in as one of the girls...
So now someone is going to say, "That's not AmbiGendered, that's just a plain 'ol..." *insert other label here*
That's not AmbiGendered, that's plain ol'...
hehe razzing yer. I don't think there are many plain androgynes, it's all good.
All non binary labels are self defined so if you find something that fits gr8 if not make your own label ;D
I've always thought bigender and androgyne overlap. It seems they have different presentation, but the same gender identity. Some are more comfortable sticking to one side of the binary at a time, others more comfortable in the middle.