Susan's Place Transgender Resources

For a mtf woman, when is transitioning "over"?  When we assimilate into society and live as a woman?

Even after transitioning is over, are we always transgender (mtf) women?  After all, after a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, it is known simply as a butterfly.  We are not of the male gender, we are of the female gender.  Many of our bodies may, externally at least, correspond with our female gender.

Are we ever simply accepted as women, and not as transwomen, as if we were born female?

If yes, does that require passing so well that people not knowing of your past have never thought of you as a transwoman but just one of many women?  Or does acceptance by others simply require kind, tolerant, understanding people even if we do not pass well?  That they respect our wishes to be accepted as women because we are women, that they not deadname us, that they use our preferred pronouns, and that they treat us fairly and like ladies?

How much and what transitioning do we need to have completed until it is reasonable for each of us to be thought of by others as a woman?

What do you think?

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on November 30, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
For a mtf woman, when is transitioning "over"?  When we assimilate into society and live as a woman?

Even after transitioning is over, are we always transgender (mtf) women?  After all, after a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, it is known simply as a butterfly.  We are not of the male gender, we are of the female gender.  Many of our bodies may, externally at least, correspond with our female gender.

Are we ever simply accepted as women, and not as transwomen, as if we were born female?

If yes, does that require passing so well that people not knowing of your past have never thought of you as a transwoman but just one of many women?  Or does acceptance by others simply require kind, tolerant, understanding people even if we do not pass well?  That they respect our wishes to be accepted as women because we are women, that they not deadname us, that they use our preferred pronouns, and that they treat us fairly and like ladies?

How much and what transitioning do we need to have completed until it is reasonable for each of us to be thought of by others as a woman?

What do you think?

Chrissy

I think I always live the rest of my life as a Transgender since I am transition from Male to Female.

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I think we're always transgender but that's not a bad thing, it shows our history through life and what we've had to face.

As for when is transition over? Cis girls there's always going to be tweeks they make on appearance throughout their lifes, be it hair clothes or even boob jobs but they're not transitioning. For me it's full time and happy with the shell that my soul is in, doesn't have to be perfect but at a stage with no / little dysphoria. Then it's onto the normal tweeking.

For those of us who have completely transitioned, we will always have a transgender medical history.  :'(

However gender identity is mostly a state of mind and when your self identity matches your physical body, nothing else matters.  ;)

I think that the definition of transgender is that your gender identity does not match your sex-assigned-at-birth.  So I think that you are always transgender.

Most trans women want to be accepted as women.  If people treat me like they do any other woman, then I am happy.  In most cases, the people I meet do.

Your transition is over when you say it is.  I will likely consider my transition over once I have had GRS, although I will continue to learn how to be a woman for the rest of my life.

Quote from: KathyLauren on November 30, 2018, 07:09:04 AM
I think that the definition of transgender is that your gender identity does not match your sex-assigned-at-birth.  So I think that you are always transgender.

Most trans women want to be accepted as women.  If people treat me like they do any other woman, then I am happy.  In most cases, the people I meet do.

Your transition is over when you say it is.  I will likely consider my transition over once I have had GRS, although I will continue to learn how to be a woman for the rest of my life.

That's what I was going to say!.

Yes we are always transgender. Maybe transition is over when that stops being a main focus of your life.

I kind of break it down to 3 types of transition; legal, social, and medical or physical.

I'm done with legal, name is changed, documents updated. 

I've been full time for 15 months about so pretty sure I'm done with social also.

Physical or medical is over when you say it is. 

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Quote from: TonyaW on November 30, 2018, 07:19:18 AM
That's what I was going to say!.

Yes we are always transgender. Maybe transition is over when that stops being a main focus of your life.

I kind of break it down to 3 types of transition; legal, social, and medical or physical.

I'm done with legal, name is changed, documents updated. 

I've been full time for 15 months about so pretty sure I'm done dith social also.

Physical or medical is over when you say it is. 

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I love this breakdown.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I am going to buck the trend here and be unpopular.

Medically, genetically, we will always be "transgender".

However, we need the healthcare directed towards our end state gender. Our health issues align with the cis gender. As a trans woman, my risk of breast cancer increased, my risk of aneurysm decreased and my risk of prostate cancer decreased. For example.

Trans, by definition means to change.

So if I identify as a female, live as a female, socialize as a female, and in every way, am a female. Why would I still consider myself "trans". I just happen to have been born with a different body. I do not identify as a trans-woman. I identify as a woman. The further along in transition I get, the less I identify personally with the term trans.

When a caterpillar emerges from her cocoon, she is a butterfly. She is not a caterpillar with wings. She transitioned from one state to another, and the transitory phase completed. She is a butterfly.

Just my 2c.

Quote from: jill610 on November 30, 2018, 07:28:59 AM

Medically, genetically, we will always be "transgender".


So if I identify as a female, live as a female, socialize as a female, and in every way, am a female. Why would I still consider myself "trans". I just happen to have been born with a different body. I do not identify as a trans-woman. I identify as a woman. The further along in transition I get, the less I identify personally with the term trans.

You spelled it out much better than I bothered to, but that's what I meant as in I will always be transgender.

The last part here I quoted was  what I was going for as my suggestion as to when transition is over. Also much better stated than I did.

This isn't in response to anything you said, just something I wanted to add. It's up to each of us to identify as we choose but we should always remember that we are women first and that trans is an adjective and it should always be written as two words or hyphenated as some adjectives are. It should never be "transwoman", as that separates us. I'm sure I've screwed that up on the past but came to this realization a while ago.

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What Jill610 said for me.

I am an older woman, at 65.  I am also a lesbian, with a 30% chance of queer. ;)  I got this way by being a transgender person.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on November 30, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
For a mtf woman, when is transitioning "over"?  When we assimilate into society and live as a woman?

Even after transitioning is over, are we always transgender (mtf) women?  After all, after a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, it is known simply as a butterfly.  We are not of the male gender, we are of the female gender.  Many of our bodies may, externally at least, correspond with our female gender.

We are women.  Being a transgender person simply and broadly describes the path we took to arrive at this stage of our lives.

I completed my legal transition fairly quickly, filing for a court date as soon as I went full time, and filing for various document changes the day I got my court order.

My social transition took place within the first two years of full-time life.

My medical transition is essentially complete, with some finishing touches that I desire to be taken care of in a few months.

Quote
Are we ever simply accepted as women, and not as transwomen, as if we were born female?

If yes, does that require passing so well that people not knowing of your past have never thought of you as a transwoman but just one of many women?  Or does acceptance by others simply require kind, tolerant, understanding people even if we do not pass well?  That they respect our wishes to be accepted as women because we are women, that they not deadname us, that they use our preferred pronouns, and that they treat us fairly and like ladies?

How much and what transitioning do we need to have completed until it is reasonable for each of us to be thought of by others as a woman?

What do you think?

Chrissy

Being accepted by women as a woman is really not under our control, but is up to them.  Some political/ideological/religious factions will readily accept us as women, welcoming us into community, and treating us as just one more member of the club.

Others, not so much. 

Passing so well that others cannot detect or identify that one has a transgender background will help being accepted by a broader range of women, but...  should some of those women subscribe to an unaccepting political/ideological/religious belief system, expect to be shunned by them and possibly others if one's background becomes known to them.

It is easier to associate with the kind, welcoming and accepting folks, and frankly, I prefer them to the folks who judge and cast out people on demand of their belief system, as I find them to be judgemental and intolerant folks.  I don't like that.

I chose to be open about my transgender history.  Woodworking, that is, disappearing into the woodwork and trying to hide my history while living life as a ciswoman is appealing at times, but to me, personally, this feels inauthentic, and I would be living my life while hiding something that if known, could cause others around me to reject me.

By being open, others can be free to accept or reject all of me, and I know that my friends will stand by me even in the face of my having to deal with issues around my transgender history.  Yes, I will have fewer friends, and yes, huge swaths of people that I would otherwise identify with will openly loathe me and misgender me, but I absolutely know where I stand with both my friends and those who loathe me.

I'm OK with this.

We are each done with our transitions when we are comfortable in our own skin, and exactly what it takes to reach that point is up to us.

"So if I identify as a female, live as a female, socialize as a female, and in every way, am a female. Why would I still consider myself "trans". I just happen to have been born with a different body. I do not identify as a trans-woman. I identify as a woman. The further along in transition I get, the less I identify personally with the term trans. "

^^^^^yes!^^^^^^

We will always be transgender yes. Key to truly moving forward as a women, is accepting and not giving a damn about our pasts. For we will not change them anyway.

I don't think anyone should feel obligated to refer themselves with any labels they don't want to. If someone wants to drop the trans from woman, I don't see the issue. The same goes for anyone who wants to keep the label for the rest of their life. Other people may label you as such, but you are by no means obligated to be visibly trans. Let's respect that we're all on different paths and no transition's the same.

For me, the whole point of transition was to successfully assimilate into society as a woman, and I've done that. So I suppose in that way, I'm no longer trans. The physical and social aspect is over with. The final step will be getting my correct passport, but it's not like anyone's going to see that. Of course I still float around here for medical and legal advice, so that's a little contradictory. Well, life's weird.

I guess it's different for everyone, but if you're not comfortable with the label, drop it. However you choose to present yourself will eventually become what most people know you as.

I guess it's how you phrase the second question. You may or may not identify as transgender, but you'll always be transgender in the medical sense.

There is an element that will never think of us as women. There is an element that thinks there is no such thing as trans. Heck there is an element that does not even think us human but rather some demonic being out to destroy the world. I'm one of those that think if, I cannot birth a child, as hard as I try, I can never be a woman. Just a transwoman. It's strange because when I came on Susan's I kept telling Archlord how lucky she was to be so beautiful and that she should be proud how she turned out. I mean she documented her transition and we saw the results and were so impressed. What I didn't now at the time. What she had to go through to become beautiful and that she still didn't feel complete. I do hope Archlord is finding the loving relationship, the home, the family she desires. She was beautiful (heart) before she transitioned.  I just want to be the best me, I can be, whatever configuration. But I feel the female model is more attuned to my well being. Meanwhile I'll continue therapy and work to find happiness. I will continue to advocate for others so no future generation will have to suffer what I have been through. The mere fact I no longer suffer from depression makes the journey I started a couple years ago, well worthwhile. It would be so much easier if I could have started my transition in the 60's, 70's. If God had answered my prayers, as that was the only way I would end up female at that time.

Quote from: Devlyn on November 30, 2018, 12:42:28 PM
I guess it's how you phrase the second question. You may or may not identify as transgender, but you'll always be transgender in the medical sense.

That's how I feel.

Now as far as whether or not "transition" ever ends?  Sure.  When I'm done making the swap from assigned to whatever I identify as then I'm pretty much done with transition and I'm almost there.  All of zee papers are taken care of, I've been full time for well over a year, and come Monday all of the surgical tweaks/upgrades/remodels are going to be done.

Honestly I kind of viewed my transition as being mostly over after getting my identification fixed and getting comfortable with full time.  The rest of it was just fleshy details.

This is a semantics issue.  The "trans" in transgender (or as I prefer, transsexual, since transgender is such a broad umbrella term, that includes people I am not [such as cross dressers, non-ops, etc.], and I'm not a fan of generalizations) means crossing over from one state to the other.  Once you're finished crossing over gender-wise, the trans no longer applies IMO.  If I do describe myself with regards to the whole "trans" thing (which I don't do very often), I prefer to say that I'm a woman, who happens to have a transsexual past, with the emphasis on the woman part of that statement.

Ellen

IMO, this is essentially an ontological question in metaphysics. You can define it as whatever you like to call. This has been a perennial topic in this site, but it is basically philosophical arguments between realism and nominalism. https://www.thoughtco.com/nominalism-vs-realism-2670598

We may have better pursue epistemological goals in the real world.

Cheers,

barbie~~

I know this is going to seem flipping crazy, but privately I've never considered myself transgender, although I've fully embraced the community. I can't remember a time in my life when I ever accepted the assigned male at birth label. Now, I played that role, but I always saw it as just that, acting. I've always been female in appearance, didn't go through male puberty, no body hair or beard, and grew small breasts instead. As far as I'm concerned, I was born with a small birth defect, which I will be getting corrected soon. I may be in a minority within our community, and I'm not suggesting it's inaccurate for others to use it, but how can the prefix "trans" accurately apply when my gender has always been female? I just can't accept that. Has anyone else ever felt this way? 

Quote from: DawnOday on November 30, 2018, 12:55:27 PM
I'm one of those that think if, I cannot birth a child, as hard as I try, I can never be a woman.

There are many women who can not give birth this does not make them less of a woman.

Quote from: Beverly Anne on November 30, 2018, 06:28:19 PM
I know this is going to seem flipping crazy, but privately I've never considered myself transgender, although I've fully embraced the community. I can't remember a time in my life when I ever accepted the assigned male at birth label. Now, I played that role, but I always saw it as just that, acting. I've always been female in appearance, didn't go through male puberty, no body hair or beard, and grew small breasts instead. As far as I'm concerned, I was born with a small birth defect, which I will be getting corrected soon. I may be in a minority within our community, and I'm not suggesting it's inaccurate for others to use it, but how can the prefix "trans" accurately apply when my gender has always been female? I just can't accept that. Has anyone else ever felt this way?

Yup me too.

Ellen

My medical transition is taking way longer than I thought it would. However, I think next year I will be done. I have another vaginal operation (3rd) in April 2019 and I will be done one way or another. My BA was to be a full C and I am a full B, I am getting use to it. I am thin so it looks appropriate, I guess. I have permission from insurance for another BA but I am tired of operations. I could go for another hair graft but it looks good now so perhaps not. I wanted to get a little mid face lift due to the FFS. I had a mid face lift then but with the jaw work it was only 80%. Perhaps some day.

Medically once I am past April I am just doing electrolysis and that is my plan. I was going to get my tummy and oblique fat removal (and reuse the fat :) ) but I am losing a lot of fat from my tummy and obliques and have very little now. By mid summer I will be where it needs to be from diet and exercise.

I feel pretty comfortable in my body now. So I guess medically I am about done. The revision work is really a bit difficult to take because I really want to be done. I understand why the doctor is doing the work and agree it will be well worth it.

Socially I have transitioned but I am very apprehensive to go into places where I will meet guys. This is what I am working on. Tomorrow night I will make a small attempt to meet guys at a singles place near me. I really hate to think someone is judging me.

I did all the legal work before I had GCS. There was no way I was going to have my old male name on my hospital chart. Once my ex said she was divorcing me I took my transition to warp 9.

I am definitely treated as female at work both professionally and personally. It took a while to get use to but it is very telling of how others treat the opposite sex, both males and females.

I see myself as female and think of myself as female but I feel that others see me as trans.

Being new to this site I am hesitant to speak my mind on this but I can't help myself.  My opinion is nothing more than that - my opinion and not judgment on others.

I think there are multiple answers to this question and none are necessarily black and white.  I see a lot of gray in the world and I think this topic is a perfect example.

I am of two minds on this subject.

1.  Yes we will always be transgender.
2.  We are completely women.

How can those both be true?  My position is that we were genetically born male (intersex not included) and that will never change.  No amount of surgery or HRT will change that fact.  We can wish and wish ( I do ) but I was still assigned male at birth due to my genitalia therefore I will always be transgender.

And that's good.  I am proud of myself to be an openly transgender woman.  To have the courage to live authentically.
I understand that those that have the ability to be stealth and choose to live that way certainly have the right to do so. However I believe to truly move the needle in society toward greater transgender acceptance it is necessary for more of us to live openly and own our truth.  I will always be transgender.

2.  I am a woman - I was born one mentally and emotionally.  Genitalia is a physical fact. Gender is a societal construct.  I am not a ciswoman. I am a transgender woman. But still a woman.

Quote from: Beverly Anne on November 30, 2018, 06:28:19 PM
I know this is going to seem flipping crazy, but privately I've never considered myself transgender, although I've fully embraced the community. I can't remember a time in my life when I ever accepted the assigned male at birth label. Now, I played that role, but I always saw it as just that, acting. I've always been female in appearance, didn't go through male puberty, no body hair or beard, and grew small breasts instead. As far as I'm concerned, I was born with a small birth defect, which I will be getting corrected soon. I may be in a minority within our community, and I'm not suggesting it's inaccurate for others to use it, but how can the prefix "trans" accurately apply when my gender has always been female? I just can't accept that. Has anyone else ever felt this way?

I am like you, never got any of the secondary male sex characteristics, no Adams Apple, but I slight beard growth (I know several cis women, who have more).
I really don't consider myself transgender either, I am just in the process to reclaim the body I had at birth.  The birth defect was surgically applied to me, and now it has to be removed again by surgical means!

My take on this is:  If the female cis community accepts you as cis you are a female. The cis females can respect you, be great friends and accept you are a female TG,  but the cis female experience of having periods is a female bonding that defines a real female. We can always try and rationalize our fantacies and come up with reasons why we consider ourselves to have always been female. Be proud to be the superior gender -  a tg female.

Because we are not cis we are constantly learning to live our lives as tg females. There is little precedense as to  how we should adapt and how we will behave as individuals, we are the pioneers of the new gender.

In the end of the day, the very term "transgender" is a weird and flawed term.
If we actually managed to "trans" our gender then we would be happy confident biological men, without a care in the world.

But we cannot change our genders, so we change our sex to the best of our abilities.
In the end of the day we are transsexual, still a flawed term being we cannot change all that assigned us male in the first place.
But it's more correct than transgender.
People just don't want to use the term transsexual cause it has the word "sex" or sexual" in it. And thus it becomes taboo just like everything to do with sex always does.
Strange world we live in

Quote from: warlockmaker on December 01, 2018, 02:35:08 AM
We can always try and rationalize our fantacies and come up with reasons why we consider ourselves to have always been female. There is little precedense as to  how we should adapt and how we will behave as individuals, we are the pioneers of the new gender.

Points well taken. It's a fascinating subject at the intersection of science, philosophy, sociology and psychology, isn't it? Perhaps the answer lies more in the realm of existentialism than biology; however, as someone living the pioneer experience I'm driven to believe that gender is hard-wired within us, regardless of genitalia. It's Western society that doesn't have it quite right, yet. There lies the work.

Perhaps, to your point, biologically there is something evolutionary happening here to our species in terms of gender/sex. Is our species evolving anatomically and neurologically towards a less binary system on the whole? Instead of a new gender, a broad spectrum of genders emerges. I'm inclined to accept that view. Our culture is playing catch up, for better or worse, as awareness of our very real dilemma has been heightened.

Quote from: Rachel_Christina on December 01, 2018, 03:41:45 AM
In the end of the day, the very term "transgender" is a weird and flawed term.
If we actually managed to "trans" our gender then we would be happy confident biological men, without a care in the world.

But we cannot change our genders, so we change our sex to the best of our abilities.
In the end of the day we are transsexual, still a flawed term being we cannot change all that assigned us male in the first place.
But it's more correct than transgender.
People just don't want to use the term transsexual cause it has the word "sex" or sexual" in it. And thus it becomes taboo just like everything to do with sex always does.
Strange world we live in

I believe this is why the term transsexual has been replaced with transgender.  Too many people still can't see gender and sexuality as separate things. 

You're correct that what we are changing is our anatomical sex and not our innate gender, so transsexual is actually a more accurate description.

Now some related random thoughts out loud.

I think the structure of the English language has something to do with this.  By putting adjectives first, we focus on the description rather than the subject.

We say tall woman,short woman, trans woman, cis woman and the focus us on the adjective.

If we could say woman tall, woman shortn woman cis, woman trans, it might be easier for others to see us as women first. 

Transgender is a medical condition, and it is similar to any chronic health issue in that it will always affect our healthcare. So in this sense we will always be transgender.
For example, I still will need prostate exams and not cervical exams. My body does not make estrogen so I will always need to supplement.  Somewhere down the road medical science may advance to where this is no longer the case, but I doubt its happening in my life time. 






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Quote from: warlockmaker on December 01, 2018, 02:35:08 AM
My take on this is:  If the female cis community accepts you as cis you are a female. The cis females can respect you, be great friends and accept you are a female TG,  but the cis female experience of having periods is a female bonding that defines a real female. We can always try and rationalize our fantacies and come up with reasons why we consider ourselves to have always been female. Be proud to be the superior gender -  a tg female.

Because we are not cis we are constantly learning to live our lives as tg females. There is little precedense as to  how we should adapt and how we will behave as individuals, we are the pioneers of the new gender.

Don't go there.  Stating that we are not real women for any reason adds to fuel to the fire for the haters that would exclude us from restrooms etc.  We are REAL women. Yes, different, but still real. 

Being accepted by cis women is quite validating, but it's not what makes us women.

And yes, I've always been female.  To say otherwise would imply that I chose to "become a woman".  What I chose was to live as my innate gender, not as what my birth anatomy would dictate.

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And than you have people like I, born intersex (how come that sex can be used with this term?).  We are basically 1/2 male and 1/2 female.  I was told by my docs that the female side of me is dominant (I had a female type menopause 16 years ago - and my genome is that of a post menopausal female).  What is with us?  Can we ever be trans, or do we just change the primary exterior gender indicators (genitals) to become full women?  Some person did a change on me at my birth, and I was declared to be male. 
No cis male ever had any doubt that I was a fellow guy!  Why do cis women have a doubt that I am a fellow woman once my genitals have been changed?  I might have a uterus like many intersex people have, it is just not connected to the right stuff. 
Somebody would have to cut me open to find it, and I am not so wild about it, but we know that it is pretty common with AMAB intersex persons.
My question is, am I really trans or just changing to one of my original genders?  Once I had bottom surgery, will I be a  "real" woman, or will I always be a trans woman?
It is very confusing for me, because nobody ever considered me to be a trans man, and now that I am in the process to let the other 1/2 of my biology out, I am all of a sudden trans?

The entire trans and intersex thing is very confusing!

I know that I am a woman.  My body does not fully represent that.  I cannot change that my gender is female.  Would someone be able to change my gender for me?  No.  I do not want to regardless.  My body could be changed but my gender could not be changed.

I went through a long period coping with and trying to deny that I am female.  I hear that is common.  That does not make me any less a female, I am simply not supressing my true self as I previously did.

A lot of people would think that this situation is imaginary or a mental defect.  I do not think that at all.

I found it quite liberating that I have accepted that I am a woman.  I am not full time and it may be awhile for that, but that is okay for now.  I am happy that I now know what my future paths can really be.  This is good.

I am transgender, AMAB, mtf.  I do not regret that or see any shame in that.  We all realize things at our own speed, in our own circumstances.

I love that I am a woman.

Chrissy

For me transition will be over when I feel that my body matches with my identity. When I feel comfortable in my own skinn. A feeling of self respect and self love. When one does not have to deal with gender dysphoria.

When that happens I believe, at this moment at lest, that I will view myself as a woman with a transgender background. And I believe that I will be comfortable with that. :)

Quote from: Beverly Anne on December 01, 2018, 06:06:58 AM
Perhaps, to your point, biologically there is something evolutionary happening here to our species in terms of gender/sex. Is our species evolving anatomically and neurologically towards a less binary system on the whole? Instead of a new gender, a broad spectrum of genders emerges. I'm inclined to accept that view. Our culture is playing catch up, for better or worse, as awareness of our very real dilemma has been heightened.

As you know, some fish and shellfish species change their sex while growing up. Sex and reproductive methods are far  more flexible and diverse in fish species such as Nemo.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/pixar/images/2/29/Finding_Nemo.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/185?cb=20130207043201)

What would the advantages of the sex change be?

barbie~~

I think that biologically speaking we will always be transgender/transsexual/whatever. Even when it is hard to see or remember the fact that we have come from A to B doesn't actually go away. I had a dog when I was little that would refuse to look at you when he did something wrong. He would hide his head in the sofa, turn away and would even keep his eyes tightly shut when you tried to force him to look at you. I understand the desire to disassociate with what came before but it is still there. Shut your eyes as tightly as you want, what was once a throw pillow is still nothing but fluffy white innards all over the living room floor. File it away and move on, own it or it will own you.

Transition itself ends, it's even part of the definition. Maybe we all have to figure out when it is over for us. For me it was physical but more importantly social transition. I haven't had my surgery yet but have considered my transition over years ago when my social transition was done. I have integrated and live the only life I have ever wanted. I have a friend that started to transition when I did, she is on the waiting list to have her surgery and that is her ultimate goal of transition and when she says her transition will be over. Social transition was never a priority for her, she loves being in between, loves being a question mark. From the beginning she said that she would be a tomboy, it fits her perfectly and oddly enough, she gets misgendered more when she dresses more feminine.

Life seems to get put on hold when we start to transition, maybe we never actually unpause it but we are living again and our gender is for us what it has always been for the rest of the world, a nonissue. I would guess that is the point when our own transition is over. No diploma, holy cow moments long gone, we don't even remember when the weight we carried disappeared and life just moved on. We will have scars of being born a different gender the rest of our lives, sometimes they may even be painful, but the healing will be done.

What are we when transition is over? I am not going to try unraveling that, I just don't know what definition fits. I feel feminine inside and out and the world treats me like a woman, that really works for me and I am content.

Please be careful about any real women arguments.

I've heard enough of these to know how very hurtful they can be to women born with vaginal agenesis, uterine agenesis, other uterine disorders, genetic or epigenetic issues, prenatal chemical or drug exposure damage (DES and other hormone disrupters!), and related issues that result in chronic amenorrhea, sterility, and related issues.

A woman is still a woman in spite of these issues.

A woman unable to give birth is still a woman.

A woman who has had a complete hysterectomy with cervical closure is still a woman.

A woman unable to nurse an infant is still a woman.

What make one a woman is not the presence or absence of certain genetalia at birth, or the presence or absence of specific physical details.

Gender identity is set in the brain, before birth, very likely in the growth of a variety of neurological structures we know correlate strongly with the sense of gender identity in men or women.

Michelle, I like your answer/comment. I liken this question to the matrix movie. Do you see ones and zeros as you look at the screen or do you see the girl in the red dress. Some people take the blue pill and some take the red. Sorry, enough matrix as I see a bunch of you bending over backwards to avoid my post. My answer is that there is no one answer that pleases all. The perspective that allows for us to be happiest might be best. As for me, I hope I'm not on my deathbed saying, "Damn that Y chromosome." lol

Moni,
  Forgive me but as I read your post I couldn't help but think.
  I liken your deathbed, may it be a hundred years from now, to Bill Murray dying in Zombieland. You will probably make everyone laugh through their tears.
  Follow the white rabbit.

Love ya babes,
Michelle

Quote from: Michelle_P on December 01, 2018, 12:53:04 PM
Please be careful about any real women arguments.

I've heard enough of these to know how very hurtful they can be to women born with vaginal agenesis, uterine agenesis, other uterine disorders, genetic or epigenetic issues, prenatal chemical or drug exposure damage (DES and other hormone disrupters!), and related issues that result in chronic amenorrhea, sterility, and related issues.

A woman is still a woman in spite of these issues.

A woman unable to give birth is still a woman.

A woman who has had a complete hysterectomy with cervical closure is still a woman.

A woman unable to nurse an infant is still a woman.

What make one a woman is not the presence or absence of certain genitalia at birth, or the presence or absence of specific physical details.

Gender identity is set in the brain, before birth, very likely in the growth of a variety of neurological structures we know correlate strongly with the sense of gender identity in men or women.

VERY true - especially with regards to those who use the genetics argument to define who is a "real woman" or a "real man.".  A case in point is CAIS women - who in general happen to look and in many cases look and act more feminine than your typical women (a few highly paid models have CAIS), and have absolutely no desire to be/live as men.  Are you going to tell them "well, you're not really women - you're a men due to your XY chromosomal configuration, who due to a gene mutation can't process androgens/testosterone"?  From what I've read, that argument flies with them about as well as a lead balloon.  Ditto for XX males.  What do you tell those with Kleinfelter's - they're not really male (or female of they're transgender or transsexual) due to being XXY?  Not every person with intersex chromosomal variations wants be considered a Third Sex.   

Tough question.

If the condition itself is caused by genetic, brain or hormonal factors, then a person is technically transgender whatever action they take or do not take; but we don't even know how those factors work fully yet. I suppose there could also be a person who has hormonal, brain or genetic factors affecting them as it does us, and yet does not feel they are transgender at all (asymptomatic). They too would be technically transgender.

That said, it's a merely a functional descriptor. It hardly describes much about an individual in totality. To think of myself as "a transgender individual" is practically meaningless in my life outside of a factual or scientific discussion. It's of general use only at the doctor's office or in a debate or discussion with people from the trans demographic. It's meaningless to people who know me, and to people who don't know me. It might be important to anyone thinking of dating me, but most of the time it's an unnecessary piece of information.

It certainly is not a third gender or third type of human being, in my opinion. Transition begins when you have decided for it to begin and it ends when you have no more need for the term I would say   

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on December 02, 2018, 01:51:46 PM
  What do you tell those with Kleinfelter's - they're not really male (or female of they're transgender or transsexual) due to being XXY?  Not every person with intersex chromosomal variations wants be considered a Third Sex.   

I am one of them, I do not want to be a they/theirs, I want to be a she/hers.  I am sick and tires not to have a "gender home" and just float around in between genders!

"It certainly is not a third gender or third type of human being, in my opinion. Transition begins when you have decided for it to begin and it ends when you have no more need for the term I would say" Quote from Kylo

If we are certainly not the 3rd gender then we are certainly neither male or female, are we "wannabe" or ??? Transition ends when you accept who you are, no more fantacies, no more rationalization but taking pride in who we are and finally finding peace with ourselves. This realization allows us to be a fully functioning contributing member of society and hopefully achieving great goals because we are blessed with the knowledge of living  2 lives in a lifetime and have so much to give back to society. Embrace who you are with pride, a transgender person.

Quote from: warlockmaker on December 02, 2018, 07:42:22 PM
This realization allows us to be a fully functioning contributing member of society and hopefully achieving great goals because we are blessed with the knowledge of living  2 lives in a lifetime and have so much to give back to society. Embrace who you are with pride, a transgender person.

Coming out as transgender has unequivocally made me a better person - not because we are better people - rather it has taught me so much about empathy and understanding my fellow beings with more compassion.

I thought I was a kind and understanding person before.  Coming out and living as openly transgender has 'woke' me so much more to many other people in the world. 

This is not something I would have said for most of my life but I can say it now.  I AM PROUD TO BE TRANSGENDER.
My transition will always be complete and yet never complete.  (figure that one out  ;D )

Some of us reside in places where the culture only accepts gender identities of Male or Female, and conflates these identities with presentation and anatomy.  The gender binary is enforced by law and various bureaucratic functions, in ways that interact with such personal activities as using a restroom or passing a security checkpoint.  This makes life much more difficult, to the point of being personally dangerous, to claim any other identity.

There is a cultural alienation process often referred to as 'Othering', casting the Other in the role of an alien, an interloper to be shunned.  Claiming a gender identity other than Male or Female, such as "Transgender Female", will result in Othering.  Being seen as a noncompliant gender identity will result in Othering.

Persons seen as Other may be declared to exist in violation of religious or personal beliefs, and may freely be discriminated against in most places in this country.  Such discrimination includes but is not limited to loss of employment, loss of shelter, loss of access to basic emergency services (yes, an ambulance, doctors, and emergency rools have all declined to care for trans persons on this basis).

I reject the attempts here to Other me. 

I am a woman, 65 years old, and a lesbian with a 30% chance of queer.  I arrived at this state through my history of being a transgender person.  Transgender describes how I got here, not my gender identity.

I, and only I determine my identity.  I and only I have the experience of living in this body, and only I can define, describe, and designate my identity.

I reject any attempt by any other person to force an identity upon me, and will resist this to my last breath.

I have survived one attempt to force me to accept another gender identity, through so-called 'conversion therapy', and will resist any attempt to coerce, convince, or cajole me into accepting any identity other than MINE.

As long as I'm taking estrogen and my testosterone is surpressed than I'm both transitioning and transgender. That's my truth biologically and medically. But what I make out of it is up to me

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Allison S on December 03, 2018, 06:44:32 AM
As long as I'm taking estrogen and my testosterone is surpressed than I'm both transitioning and transgender. That's my truth biologically and medically. But what I make out of it is up to me

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Yes, it is up to you.  But you also live in and with society, and society may see it different, and may refuse you service, or access to certain areas, or other things that are out of your influence.

I am lucky that i am financially independent, and don't have to care about a workplace or shelter.  But I still need medical services, not only for transitioning but also for my trans independent medical conditions or ailments.  I still need certain governmental services.  If an administration would say, we refuse to provide any of the services to persons who are not following the standard binary gender conventions,  I am pretty bad off, it is out of my control!

Quote from: Dietlind on December 03, 2018, 08:13:40 AM
... But I still need medical services, not only for transitioning but also for my trans independent medical conditions or ailments.  I still need certain governmental services.  If an administration would say, we refuse to provide any of the services to persons who are not following the standard binary gender conventions,  I am pretty bad off, it is out of my control!

This is why why have our action and legal support organizations:

National Center for Transgender Equality (NCTE)  (advocacy)
Transgender Law Center (TLC)  (legal services and advocacy)
Gender Proud  (advocacy)
Sylvia Rivera Law Project (SRLP)  (legal services)
Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund (TLDEF)  (legal services)
Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition (MTPC)  (advocacy)
Trans People of Color Coalition (TPOCC)  (advocacy)
Trans Women of Color Collective (TWOCC)  (advocacy)
Black Trans Advocacy  (advocacy)
Trans Latina Coalition  (advocacy)
Gender Spectrum  (support for families, trans youth, and educators)
Gender Diversity (support for families, trans youth, and educators)
Trans Youth Equality Federation  (support for families and trans youth)
Trans Youth Family Allies (TYFA)  (support for families and trans youth)
TransTech Social Enterprises  (economic empowerment)
SPART*A  (advocacy for trans military service members)
Transgender American Veterans Association  (advocacy for trans veterans)
TransAthlete.com  (info about trans athletes)
TransLife Center at Chicago House  (support services)

More at:  Transgender Resources | GLAAD (https://www.glaad.org/transgender/resources)

@ Michelle_P
i know, but it seems as if the current administration and several staates don't give a hoot about all that.  They do what they want.
I feel really bad for the poor transgender kids in school in some of the staates that require them to go to bathrooms that fit their birth certificate!
As an adult, specifically as an adult with two nationalities, I can find a way to circumference a lot of the regulations (If required, I can go back to Europe), but those poor kids are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have no place to go!   Instead of helping them in all ways possible, they are even more stigmatized now!  I bet we will see an increased suicide rate in the not so distant future!

Quote from: Dietlind on December 03, 2018, 12:15:51 PM
@ Michelle_P
i know, but it seems as if the current administration and several staates don't give a hoot about all that.  They do what they want.
I feel really bad for the poor transgender kids in school in some of the staates that require them to go to bathrooms that fit their birth certificate!
As an adult, specifically as an adult with two nationalities, I can find a way to circumference a lot of the regulations (If required, I can go back to Europe), but those poor kids are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have no place to go!   Instead of helping them in all ways possible, they are even more stigmatized now!  I bet we will see an increased suicide rate in the not so distant future!

Things are actually getting better overall within the United States.  A few years ago, the various abusive practices now being reported on would be simply accepted as normal, and ignored.

We are hearing more from the 'put them back in the closet' side only because they feel empowered to speak their minds without regard to common civility right now.  That is, the social atmosphere is such that some people feel entitled to make verbal and physical threats anonymously, and this in turn empowers a smaller number of people to mistakenly assume that they can act out with impunity. 

Some actions are violent, and may be legally prosecuted with varying results.  Some actions are legislative, and may proceed with varying results.  It turns out that many people find that legislative or physical attacks on marginalized populations are objectionable, and apply pressure to try and correct these abuses.

One function of the transgender legal and advocacy projects is to identify these abuses, publicize them, and direct legal and legislative efforts to neutralize them.  I have been engaged in a number of such actions, as well as educational work to raise awareness and correct some of the incorrect information about transgender people out in the world.

I think that we are always transgender, from birth to death, although the term is a bit 'off'. I'm not changing my gender identity, just my presentation, to bring it into line with my gender identity.  In my particular case, this change includes altering my anatomical presentation a bit, such that my anatomy now resembles that of many natal women my age, along with correcting my endocrine systems chemistry and my voice.

Transgender simply identifies the path I have taken through life to arrive at this presentation.  It has taken me decades to recognize that many of my difficulties have been due to my trying to force my presentation and role to match genitalia rather than my identity, and desperately trying to suppress or re-forge my identity to match genitalia.  That doesn't work for me, and my correct path turns out to be accepting my identity and allowing my presentation and role to match my identity.  This is the process of transition.

Explaining the meaning of being transgender, and what this transition thing is all about has been a focus of my educational efforts.  That's part of why I've been posting here!

@ Michelle_P
And this is very important o do what you do!  I used to be a political activist all my adult life, and wonder whether there is something I could get involved with?

Quote from: Dietlind on December 02, 2018, 06:42:28 PM
I am one of them, I do not want to be a they/theirs, I want to be a she/hers.  I am sick and tired not to have a "gender home" and just float around in between genders!

I agree.  I realize that it was probably done for identity politics reasons (and I've never cared for identity politics [I've been exposed to identity politics, since the 1980s, when I attended one of the most left wing universities in the world {the University of Wisconsin} for Engineering Degree #1]), but it still baffles me why people would appropriate a plural pronoun to describe a (single) person.

Just a digression by me - I'm a bit of an old timer compared to many on these forums - I finished up (and by finishing up for me, I mean SRS) 15 years ago.  Things were frankly, quite a bit different back then.  Also personally, I got sick of the (to use a Star Trek reference) the "we are the Borg, we will assimilate you" attitude that was starting to appear in what passed for a community back then (and seems to still exist IMO).  In other words - walk in lock step with the party line, or else!  Hence the reason why I drifted away from the whole TG/TS thing by 2006 (this is the first TG/TS forum I've belonged to since then).  Sorry, I did the "out and proud" thing until late 2001.  There was fallout from it in the form of being treated as an "other" kind of person  (I didn't like it).  Also, there was no advocacy available when I almost lost a job I hated (but desperately needed, so I'd have enough money for my SRS), due to bathroom issues in the summer of 2003. 

I've stated the above to explain why I have the view I do on this issue.  In short, despite what some may believe, one size/viewpoint does not fit all.

Ellen

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on December 03, 2018, 03:03:05 PM
I agree.  I realize that it was probably done for identity politics reasons (and I've never cared for identity politics [I've been exposed to identity politics, since the 1980s, when I attended one of the most left wing universities in the world {the University of Wisconsin} for Engineering Degree #1]),

We might have seen each other there.  I was there for a lot of extension classes during that time.
But it is almost right wing compared with most universities in Germany!  My wife taught at the UoW, and we taught it was Ok progressive, but nothing to write home about (compared with our experience from Europe)

Quote
but it still baffles me why people would appropriate a plural pronoun to describe a (single) person.

I don't get it either.  I am one of those gender fluid persons (because I am intersex) who should be a they or whatever plural fits, but each time somebody says  that, I look around to see who else is there!  I may have several genders siting inside my body, but I am still a single person!  I prefer simply to be a she, because that is the gender I most identify with!

Quote from: Dietlind on December 03, 2018, 07:29:23 PM
  I don't get it either.  I am one of those gender fluid persons (because I am intersex) who should be a they or whatever plural fits, but each time somebody says  that, I look around to see who else is there!  I may have several genders siting inside my body, but I am still a single person!  I prefer simply to be a she, because that is the gender I most identify with!

Count me as another one who doesn't get it.

Transitioning ends for most people at a certain point. Taking meds for the rest of our lives is why we are transgender. Being transgender is for life, however, transitioning does come to an end if someone allows it. Meaning that basically all of the body modifications are done. The FFS, adam's apple shave, body hair removal, non-op, orchiectomy, vaginoplasty, and etc. I did not include the FtM items on the list but those also are included.

Quote from: Dietlind on December 03, 2018, 07:29:23 PM
We might have seen each other there.  I was there for a lot of extension classes during that time.
But it is almost right wing compared with most universities in Germany!  My wife taught at the UoW, and we taught it was Ok progressive, but nothing to write home about (compared with our experience from Europe)
  I don't get it either.  I am one of those gender fluid persons (because I am intersex) who should be a they or whatever plural fits, but each time somebody says  that, I look around to see who else is there!  I may have several genders siting inside my body, but I am still a single person!  I prefer simply to be a she, because that is the gender I most identify with!

I'm an alum (Class of '87).  When I was at the Univ. of WI, there still was an echo of that 60s protest vibe at the place.  The main reason why the roofs of the buildings are locked is due to the fact the several students took a swan dive off of 20 stories high Van Hise Hall to protest the Vietnam War.  I spent a year living on Mifflin St. (in an apartment that was frankly a dump - my dad told me a few years after I graduated, that my mom cried all the way home, during the 2 plous hour drive, after seeing my apartment), which was the epicenter of the Vietnam War protest riots.  There were a lot of 60s burnouts living in Madison, when I was at the university.  I lived kitty corner from the Mifflin St. Co-op, which sold dope brownies during their annual Mifflin St. festival.

Madison, WI itself is a very politically driven town (since it is the state capitol), and probably the most liberal town in the state - especially with regards to sexuality.  At the time was attending the University of Wisconsin, it was figured that as much as 20% of Madison's population of 175,000 people was gay (I lived 3 blocks from a the Hotel Washington - it was owned by a gay couple, and along with having a vintage clothing store, and two neighborhood bars, it also had 2 gay bars [one of which, would not allow women inside of it]).  Unfortunately, transition resources were non-existent at the university when I was there (believe me, I spent a serious amount of time looking into to it - I wanted to transition in college)  :(  It's probably due to the fact that at the time being TS was was not PC at that place (by transitioning, you were knuckling under to society's preconceived notions of what you needed to be, so you could act in certain ways - hey "why not be an effeminate male instead?" [Gloria Steinem actually made that comment about transsexuals, in a book I read in the late 80s - not cool!!!]).  The University of Wisconsin like many left leaning schools, is very PC driven.  I despise PC.

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on December 03, 2018, 08:47:42 PM
I'm an alum (Class of '87).  When I was at the Univ. of WI, there still was an echo of that 60s protest vibe at the place.  The main reason why the roofs of the buildings are locked is due to the fact the several students took a swan dive off of 20 stories high Van Hise Hall to protest the Vietnam War.  I spent a year living on Mifflin St. (in an apartment that was frankly a dump - my dad told me a few years after I graduated, that my mom cried all the way home, during the 2 plous hour drive, after seeing my apartment), which was the epicenter of the Vietnam War protest riots.  There were a lot of 60s burnouts living in Madison, when I was at the university.  I lived kitty corner from the Mifflin St. Co-op, which sold dope brownies during their annual Mifflin St. festival.

Madison, WI itself is a very politically driven town (since it is the state capitol), and probably the most liberal town in the state - especially with regards to sexuality.  At the time was attending the University of Wisconsin, it was figured that as much as 20% of Madison's population of 175,000 people was gay (I lived 3 blocks from a the Hotel Washington - it was owned by a gay couple, and along with having a vintage clothing store, and two neighborhood bars, it also had 2 gay bars [one of which, would not allow women inside of it]).  Unfortunately, transition resources were non-existent at the university when I was there (believe me, I spent a serious amount of time looking into to it - I wanted to transition in college)  :(  It's probably due to the fact that at the time being TS was was not PC at that place (by transitioning, you were knuckling under to society's preconceived notions of what you needed to be, so you could act in certain ways - hey "why not be an effeminate male instead?" [Gloria Steinem actually made that comment about transsexuals, in a book I read in the late 80s - not cool!!!]).  The University of Wisconsin like many left leaning schools, is very PC driven.  I despise PC.

Yes, Madison was, and is definitely the most liberal city in Wisconsin.  I lived in Wisconsin starting 1978 until I moved to Florida last year.  My wife taught at the Moo-U, the River Falls Campus of the UoW.  She taught in teacher education, definitely the most liberal department of the U.  I don't think that you would find much of help for transgender people in Wisconsin, it is just way to conservative.  If one wants to see some action in any LGBTIQ things, one would have to go to the Twin Cities.  The UoM there has a full transgender department now.

The university in Madison is just reluctantly moving in providing students and employees health coverage for trans issues.  The lost a court case over this.

I am contemplating having my possible SRS done at the UoM.  My son still lives in a Twin Cities suburb, and i could stay with him for a while, or have it done at the Mayo in Rochester, MN. (I am on their patient roster for over 30 years now).

Class of 86, go Badgers.

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on December 03, 2018, 08:47:42 PM
I'm an alum (Class of '87).  When I was at the Univ. of WI, there still was an echo of that 60s protest vibe at the place.  The main reason why the roofs of the buildings are locked is due to the fact the several students took a swan dive off of 20 stories high Van Hise Hall to protest the Vietnam War.  I spent a year living on Mifflin St. (in an apartment that was frankly a dump - my dad told me a few years after I graduated, that my mom cried all the way home, during the 2 plous hour drive, after seeing my apartment), which was the epicenter of the Vietnam War protest riots.  There were a lot of 60s burnouts living in Madison, when I was at the university.  I lived kitty corner from the Mifflin St. Co-op, which sold dope brownies during their annual Mifflin St. festival.

Madison, WI itself is a very politically driven town (since it is the state capitol), and probably the most liberal town in the state - especially with regards to sexuality.  At the time was attending the University of Wisconsin, it was figured that as much as 20% of Madison's population of 175,000 people was gay (I lived 3 blocks from a the Hotel Washington - it was owned by a gay couple, and along with having a vintage clothing store, and two neighborhood bars, it also had 2 gay bars [one of which, would not allow women inside of it]).  Unfortunately, transition resources were non-existent at the university when I was there (believe me, I spent a serious amount of time looking into to it - I wanted to transition in college)  :(  It's probably due to the fact that at the time being TS was was not PC at that place (by transitioning, you were knuckling under to society's preconceived notions of what you needed to be, so you could act in certain ways - hey "why not be an effeminate male instead?" [Gloria Steinem actually made that comment about transsexuals, in a book I read in the late 80s - not cool!!!]).  The University of Wisconsin like many left leaning schools, is very PC driven.  I despise PC.

Spent some time in Memorial Library looking for books on transsexuals as it was known then.  That's as far as I got transition wise back then.  Wasn't something I really thought I'd ever be able to do at the time.

I think one of my roommates from my 3rd year claimed his brother owned the bar in Hotel Washington. Don't recall ever meeting this brother, even at this roommates wedding. This would have been in 82-83.

Quote from: Dietlind on December 03, 2018, 10:42:02 PM
Yes, Madison was, and is definitely the most liberal city in Wisconsin.  I lived in Wisconsin starting 1978 until I moved to Florida last year.  My wife taught at the Moo-U, the River Falls Campus of the UoW.  She taught in teacher education, definitely the most liberal department of the U.  I don't think that you would find much of help for transgender people in Wisconsin, it is just way to conservative.  If one wants to see some action in any LGBTIQ things, one would have to go to the Twin Cities.  The UoM there has a full transgender department now.

The university in Madison is just reluctantly moving in providing students and employees health coverage for trans issues.  The lost a court case over this.

I am contemplating having my possible SRS done at the UoM.  My son still lives in a Twin Cities suburb, and i could stay with him for a while, or have it done at the Mayo in Rochester, MN. (I am on their patient roster for over 30 years now).

Still living in Wisconsin, (Fox Cities area now) and am finding enough resources.  There was a doctor in Neenah that used to do GCS, Jennifer Boylan his most notable. There's a gender clinic at UW hospital now also that says there is a surgeon there.  Nothing else really on their website about it and I've never seen anyone here mention it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Quote from: TonyaW on December 04, 2018, 12:37:08 AM


Still living in Wisconsin, (Fox Cities area now) and am finding enough resources.  There was a doctor in Neenah that used to do GCS, Jennifer Boylan his most notable. There's a gender clinic at UW hospital now also that says there is a surgeon there.  Nothing else really on their website about it and I've never seen anyone here mention it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I used to live in St. Croix Falls and later in Hudson.  I worked in the Twin Cities.  We had some projects together with the medical school in Madison. specifically with Professor Maki, who happened to be a first cousin of my brother in law, as I found out later.
Now that I am in Florida for my second winter, I have to say I don't miss the cold at all.  When it is to hot here in the summer, I hop in my motorhome and drive up into God's Country again an spend a few months up there!

A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try.  :laugh:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

Quote from: Dietlind on December 03, 2018, 10:42:02 PM
Yes, Madison was, and is definitely the most liberal city in Wisconsin.  I lived in Wisconsin starting 1978 until I moved to Florida last year.  My wife taught at the Moo-U, the River Falls Campus of the UoW.  She taught in teacher education, definitely the most liberal department of the U.  I don't think that you would find much of help for transgender people in Wisconsin, it is just way to conservative.  If one wants to see some action in any LGBTIQ things, one would have to go to the Twin Cities.  The UoM there has a full transgender department now.

The university in Madison is just reluctantly moving in providing students and employees health coverage for trans issues.  The lost a court case over this.

I am contemplating having my possible SRS done at the UoM.  My son still lives in a Twin Cities suburb, and i could stay with him for a while, or have it done at the Mayo in Rochester, MN. (I am on their patient roster for over 30 years now).

Actually I did find help.  I found out (via a copy of Tapestry magazine) about a gender program in the Milwaukee area.  I got in touch with it in the late 90s, and did my entire transition here in Wisconsin (I am a native of the state).  Until early 2003 (when he retired), one of the better known SRS surgeons back in the day (Eugene Schrang) did his surgeries in Theda Clark regional medical center in Neenah, which is 50 miles west of my hometown of Manitowoc (I no longer live in Manitowoc, I live in the Milwaukee area nowadays).  Schrang, did the SRS of one of my friends. 

In short, there are some transition resources in Wisconsin - just not as many as in say Chicago, on the east coast, or the west coast.  They also aren't as visible as they are on some areas.

Ellen

Quote from: Devlyn on December 04, 2018, 01:42:38 AM
A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try.  :laugh:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

Hmmm, interesting, I didn't consider the grammar rule pointed out in the Oxford Dictionary.  My main argument was as a (sorry to say) Grammar Nazi.  I stand corrected.  I guess I just wish a new pronoun like herm, shim, heesh, etc., was used.  But, that's not my call.

Ellen

Ellen

Quote from: Michelle_P on December 03, 2018, 01:03:44 AM
There is a cultural alienation process often referred to as 'Othering', casting the Other in the role of an alien, an interloper to be shunned.  Claiming a gender identity other than Male or Female, such as "Transgender Female", will result in Othering.  Being seen as a noncompliant gender identity will result in Othering.

Yes. It is the same here for Korean language. People label the minorities with any noun they want to call.

Here people are not so much judgmental on gender minorities. I have never heard that anybody was harmed physically because he/she is transgender.

Of course, bullying is ubiquitous here in schools. Last week, it became the biggest news here that a middle school student was bullied and dead by his classmates, simply because his mother is foreigner (Russian) and he looks differently than other boys here. Many people lamented that the justice system here can not punish the murderers because their biological age is less than 14 yrs. But those kids are just the mirrors of the adults here. They just learn and follow what they have seen and heard from their parents and other close adults. The society is cruel in that people 'kiss up and kick down'. This is even the same for relationships between nations. Nevertheless, human species have pursued civilization, sympathy for weak and suffering people.

Here the only group that explicitly shows hate to LGBT people are fundamental, Koreanized Christians. http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180909000245

To my eyes and probably to most non-Christians here, they are just miserable slaves, whom I just avoid in the street. As it is anyway a democratic society, they are allowed to shout curses loudly by using big speakers in the downtown. But they are mentally de facto slaves, just faithfully following what their pastor directed them to do.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newscj.com%2Fnews%2Fphoto%2F201309%2F206100_159622_1357.jpg&hash=2a7850b9a5089a9c50854fac26bfa0361db22ecd)

When facing me, those slaves even can not argue with me. If I look stronger, they just run away, because they know instinctively who is the weak and who is the strong. Those slaves do predate the weak.

barbie~~

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on December 04, 2018, 04:56:00 AM
Actually I did find help.  I found out (via a copy of Tapestry magazine) about a gender program in the Milwaukee area.  I got in touch with it in the late 90s, and did my entire transition here in Wisconsin (I am a native of the state).  Until early 2003 (when he retired), one of the better known SRS surgeons back in the day (Eugene Schrang) did his surgeries in Theda Clark regional medical center in Neenah, which is 50 miles west of my hometown of Manitowoc (I no longer live in Manitowoc, I live in the Milwaukee area nowadays).  Schrang, did the SRS of one of my friends. 

In short, there are some transition resources in Wisconsin - just not as many as in say Chicago, on the east coast, or the west coast.  They also aren't as visible as they are on some areas.

Ellen

Hey Ellen

Grew up in Brookfield and moved back to Milwaukee area after college. Moved up to Fox Cites about 5 years ago now for job change.  My kids still live in Milwaukee area and I go down there most weekends still.  Late to the transition game so never sought out any trans related resources when I lived there. 

I was disappointed to find I missed Dr Schrang by a good 15 years as Neenah is about my backyard right now.

About alternative pronouns, I found these, which the article I pulled them from said the cards were developed by UWM LGBT resource center in 2011.

  I don't identify as non binary so they don't appeal to me as an option for me.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/5ed92286c917e29b7723b11096c660f4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/d9e91412b8ed7e307b66b27bde55d4f8.jpg)

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I will always be trans. No amount of surgery can erase my history (medical, social, emotional, etc...) and that's not a bad thing. Now it doesn't mean I won't be able to blend into society fully as a woman, but my history will definitely never be cis.

Quote from: Devlyn on December 04, 2018, 01:42:38 AM
A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try.  :laugh:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

Sorry that is a poor example, because the singular plural their is used for a group of pople addressed like an individual!

The they for people like I are addressing an individual person, and not a group that is seen as one. 
It is not as if I don't respect their desire to be called they, I just can't understand it, and I do not want to be called like this.  This has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting, it is just a simple statement that I don't get it and don't want to be addressed like this!

Quote from: Dietlind on December 04, 2018, 10:20:36 AM
Sorry that is a poor example, because the singular plural their is used for a group of pople addressed like an individual!

The they for people like I are addressing an individual person, and not a group that is seen as one. 
It is not as if I don't respect their desire to be called they, I just can't understand it, and I do not want to be called like this.  This has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting, it is just a simple statement that I don't get it and don't want to be addressed like this!

It's been a source of contention over the years when people are asked to explain their identities or pronouns to someone else's satisfaction or understanding. We don't need to understand things (of a personal nature like this, after all, we're not talking about scientific proofs here) to accept and support them. Lots of people here use they, them, their, ze, hir, and a lot of other identifiers. Sometimes it can seem unsupportive, or even confrontational to say "I don't understand your pronouns/identity".

My post was merely a reminder that we should all tread lightly in regard to a subject like this.  :)

Quote from: Devlyn on December 04, 2018, 10:38:30 AM
It's been a source of contention over the years when people are asked to explain their identities or pronouns to someone else's satisfaction or understanding. We don't need to understand things (of a personal nature like this, after all, we're not talking about scientific proofs here) to accept and support them. Lots of people here use they, them, their, ze, hir, and a lot of other identifiers. Sometimes it can seem unsupportive, or even confrontational to say "I don't understand your pronouns/identity".

My post was merely a reminder that we should all tread lightly in regard to a subject like this.  :)

Are we up to semantics now?
I thought I made it clear that i don't understand it and don't want to be used with me.  Three of us here have the same problem and do not want to be addressed like this.
If another person wants m e to address the person with they, I will do this, but I still wonder why this is the persons desire!

Quote from: Dietlind on December 04, 2018, 11:01:26 AM
Are we up to semantics now?
I thought I made it clear that i don't understand it and don't want to be used with me.  Three of us here have the same problem and do not want to be addressed like this.
If another person wants m e to address the person with they, I will do this, but I still wonder why this is the persons desire!

Your pronouns are she/her/hers, correct? That is all, respectfully, that should matter to you.

We're not "up to" semantics, or anything else. I have explained that I am neither of the binary genders. I'm not overly concerned with the pronouns used on me. But some people are. And they don't need to explain it to you, me, God, or anyone else. They just have to make it clear which pronouns they prefer...no explanation required.

Have a great night.

I hope no one minds, but I just have to add that I was a student at UW Madison from 1965-69!   The part I would share was that all my gender dysphoria and self hatred blew up in my sophomore year and I had a psychotic breakdown.    I was hospitalized in the psych ward of University Hospitals and also Mendota State across the lake.    When I finally stabilized enough to have therapy, I told the University psychiatrist that I wanted to be a woman, hated my genitals, and hated myself for such thoughts.  Zero understanding, zero help.  Looking back, I could not blame them, that was the dark ages of transgender knowledge.    How I survived  is another story, but I lived long enough to see an monumental change in modern psychology and medicine.   By the way, I never did graduate as I dropped out my senior year to try and save myself.

Quote from: Dorit on December 04, 2018, 12:03:34 PM
I hope no one minds, but I just have to add that I was a student at UW Madison from 1965-69!   The part I would share

This means, you lived in god's own country for 4 long years!  Not that bad, enough to learn a thing or two about the winters there!

Quote from: TonyaW on December 04, 2018, 08:07:04 AM
Hey Ellen

Grew up in Brookfield and moved back to Milwaukee area after college. Moved up to Fox Cites about 5 years ago now for job change.  My kids still live in Milwaukee area and I go down there most weekends still.  Late to the transition game so never sought out any trans related resources when I lived there. 

I was disappointed to find I missed Dr Schrang by a good 15 years as Neenah is about my backyard right now.

About alternative pronouns, I found these, which the article I pulled them from said the cards were developed by UWM LGBT resource center in 2011.

  I don't identify as non binary so they don't appeal to me as an option for me.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/5ed92286c917e29b7723b11096c660f4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181204/d9e91412b8ed7e307b66b27bde55d4f8.jpg)

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Hi Tonya,

Yep I grew up in Manitowoc (which BTW, is where TG activist & military veteran Sheri Swoboda is from), moved back there after college, and lived there until 2004 (when I moved here for my present job).  I know where Brookfield is.  I live in the western part of Milwaukee County (2 miles from the county line), just a hop, skip, and a leap from Brookfield (my favorite guitar shop is Brookfield).

I met Schrang a few times (when a couple of my friends had their SRS with him, and when he gave a talk at Gemini Gender Group [which I belonged to at the time] in 2002).

Resource-wise, the program I went through for transition, was the Pathways Counseling Center one.  At the time they were located across from Mayfair Mall in the Associated Bank building.  I checked recently, and learned that they are now in Brookfield on Blue Mound Rd.

Oh yeah!  And, I forgot to mention - I've also seen the pronoun chart you posted.  I'd kind of forgotten about it (oops!).

Ellen

Quote from: Dorit on December 04, 2018, 12:03:34 PM
I hope no one minds, but I just have to add that I was a student at UW Madison from 1965-69!   The part I would share was that all my gender dysphoria and self hatred blew up in my sophomore year and I had a psychotic breakdown.    I was hospitalized in the psych ward of University Hospitals and also Mendota State across the lake.    When I finally stabilized enough to have therapy, I told the University psychiatrist that I wanted to be a woman, hated my genitals, and hated myself for such thoughts.  Zero understanding, zero help.  Looking back, I could not blame them, that was the dark ages of transgender knowledge.    How I survived  is another story, but I lived long enough to see an monumental change in modern psychology and medicine.   By the way, I never did graduate as I dropped out my senior year to try and save myself.

Ooh!  I know where Mendota Mental Health is (I rode past it a few times when I was in college, on my motorcycle).  That is a nasty place!  When I looked into transitioning at the UW in the 80s, things weren't much better that what you experienced.  Other than a few lines in some text books, and an original copy of Lili Elbe's biography (which I read to an extent - you couldn't check it out) at the Medical Library, there was zip.  They had tons of resources for gay and lesbian students, but zip for people who were TS like me (unless you wanted >-bleeped-< porn from the porn shops on State Street [ugh!!!]).  I will admit, that it left me pretty messed up in the head, and my grades suffered to the point where I almost wasn't able to graduate.  As it was, even after graduation, I was basically often on autopilot, trying to get through the days, and scraping together money for SRS (due to a lack of engineering jobs, I ended up working in a factory on the production line after college).  I almost killed myself a few times before I started transitioning (via a one way swim in Lake Michigan).  I actually got hit by a car when I was out for a run, and while people said that I was lucky to survive to experience, I often felt at the time that I was actually unlucky since I survived it.

Congratulations on surviving the whole experience.   :)
Ellen
Ellen

Quote from: Dietlind on December 04, 2018, 01:40:33 PM
This means, you lived in god's own country for 4 long years!  Not that bad, enough to learn a thing or two about the winters there!

Such is life on the frozen tundra of Wisconsin!   ;D

Ellen

Quote from: EllenJ2003 on December 04, 2018, 07:27:20 PM
Such is life on the frozen tundra of Wisconsin!   ;D

Ellen

You girls lived at the warm side of the state, I lived all the way north on I94 in the area that is known as Minnesconsin, right next to Minnesnowta (where I earned my pennies).

Quote from: Devlyn on December 04, 2018, 01:42:38 AM
A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try.  :laugh:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

I fully agree that we should respect everyone including gender NB.  I did look at the link Devlyn included and I am still confused and I have a B.A. in Journalism  :D I hope in the near future some replacement words are created by someone inventive that can replace 'they' etc. just because of the confusion. 

But when in doubt it is always best to ask someone their preference.  Someone just did it to me last night and I appreciated it.  I am Binary but an openly transwoman and the guy clocked me right away and was uninformed but at least polite enough to ask my preference.  Being polite will get you everywhere.

Quote from: KimOct on December 04, 2018, 11:38:08 PM

But when in doubt it is always best to ask someone their preference.  Someone just did it to me last night and I appreciated it.  I am Binary but an openly transwoman and the guy clocked me right away and was uninformed but at least polite enough to ask my preference.  Being polite will get you everywhere.

And this is the thing, one should be polite an ask.
As I said, my intersex condition has at least two sexes sharing my body (and it seems that I might have even more uff going on), and I am pretty much gender fluid, and have no dysphoria whether I present as male or female (in fact I am currently contemplating if I should go shopping as a male or a female, I prefer female, but it is easier to get ready as a male), or as an androgynous person.  I prefer to go as a woman, because I feel most comfortable in this roll.  But I would feel kind of funny, if somebody would want to address me with "they".  Whatever roll I am presenting in, I prefer to be addressed in  the gender specific terms of the gender I am displaying.

Quote from: Dietlind on December 05, 2018, 06:55:32 AM
And this is the thing, one should be polite an ask.
As I said, my intersex condition has at least two sexes sharing my body (and it seems that I might have even more uff going on), and I am pretty much gender fluid, and have no dysphoria whether I present as male or female (in fact I am currently contemplating if I should go shopping as a male or a female, I prefer female, but it is easier to get ready as a male), or as an androgynous person.  I prefer to go as a woman, because I feel most comfortable in this roll.  But I would feel kind of funny, if somebody would want to address me with "they".  Whatever roll I am presenting in, I prefer to be addressed in  the gender specific terms of the gender I am displaying.

That's exactly how someone who doesn't identify with either gender binary, or both, or no gender at all, feels about being addressed as a specific gender. See.... simple.  :)

Quote from: Devlyn on December 05, 2018, 07:51:28 AM
That's exactly how someone who doesn't identify with either gender binary, or both, or no gender at all, feels about being addressed as a specific gender. See.... simple.  :)

I have the feeling that we are talking passt each other.  I do not have, and never had, any clear gender identity!  But because I am a member of society, I have to somewhat follow the conventions and have to somewhat present in any of the binary genders. Or I can present androgynous , but even this leans to one or the other gender.
I, personally, can be as gender fluid, for as long as I want, I can go now as a man, and an hour later as a woman, it does not bother me at all, I have no dysphoria about any of these rolls!  But whatever presentation I am in, I prefer to be addressed with the fitting pronomens!  Because my bodies biology seems to indicate that I am more female than male (genome analysis indicated that I have a typical post menopausal female genome), I prefer the female presentation, but yet, my body is still partly male, and will always be that way!
I would feel very uncomfortable and confused, if somebody would address me with they!  Because no matter how many gender personalities I harbor, to the outside world I am still a single individual, and not a plurality!

If a person would prefer to be addressed with thy, it is their thing, but I would like to understand why they want this, because like I, they present still as a single individual, and not as several persons!
It is not that I would not respect their wish, but because of an almost academic interests, I would like to know why they have this wish?

They/their have a long history in English, going back at least to Shakespeare in the 16th century, as I found from following Devlyn's link. We just "get" it as referring to a singular person without the same friction when trying to understand some of these newly minted terms. So that may be why some nonbinary people prefer it.

For myself, as nonbinary I prefer the pronouns that go with my current presentation, and if I'm andro and nobody can figure me out, then I'll accept anything.

I've so far kept the original spelling of my name as well and I like that when pronounced, it is a dual-gendered name. So it goes either way. Sometimes people write Randi and that's OK too.
Randy

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Quote from: Beverly Anne on November 30, 2018, 06:28:19 PM
I know this is going to seem flipping crazy, but privately I've never considered myself transgender, although I've fully embraced the community. I can't remember a time in my life when I ever accepted the assigned male at birth label. Now, I played that role, but I always saw it as just that, acting. I've always been female in appearance, didn't go through male puberty, no body hair or beard, and grew small breasts instead. As far as I'm concerned, I was born with a small birth defect, which I will be getting corrected soon. I may be in a minority within our community, and I'm not suggesting it's inaccurate for others to use it, but how can the prefix "trans" accurately apply when my gender has always been female? I just can't accept that. Has anyone else ever felt this way?

You're either trans or cis. Which is it? You have to face reality.

I am stating this opinion merely as an observer.  Having not been born intersex I have not had that journey which I assume is challenging.

Quote from: jenpa on December 05, 2018, 03:46:27 PM
You're either trans or cis. Which is it? You have to face reality.

My disclaimer stated, it would seem to me that someone is trans if they do not identify with the gender that they were assigned at birth.  And if they identify as anything along the gender spectrum such as NB or gender fluid or androgynous etc I would still think that is being transgender because you don't identify with the gender assigned at birth. 

If you identify as the gender you are assigned at birth you are cis.  Anything else to me would be somewhere on the transgender spectrum.

Quote from: KimOct on December 05, 2018, 08:38:28 PM
I am stating this opinion merely as an observer.  Having not been born intersex I have not had that journey which I assume is challenging.

My disclaimer stated, it would seem to me that someone is trans if they do not identify with the gender that they were assigned at birth.  And if they identify as anything along the gender spectrum such as NB or gender fluid or androgynous etc I would still think that is being transgender because you don't identify with the gender assigned at birth. 

If you identify as the gender you are assigned at birth you are cis.  Anything else to me would be somewhere on the transgender spectrum.

This si the reason that I think, i belong to the trans sector of gender identity.
The way I see it, my biology would have allowed me to be a guy or a girl, but somebody decided with a little quick cutting etc. that i should be a guy.  I never really identified my self strongly with this gender, but I tried to live like one, because hat was expected of me.  This attempt worked OK for many years, until the bubble burst, and i could not play the guy roll anymore.  For several years I was gender neutral, just did not care what gender I was or wanted to be.  I did not feel connected to any gender.  Several years ago I started to drift to the female side, and I became gender fluid, I could switch like nothing between each gender. 
Now I am at the point that I feel like reclaiming my original body.  It is not the way the normal trans women seem to feel, I still don't have real gender identity, and I still can switch pretty easy between the gender (most of the morning I was presenting as a male, most of the afternoon as a female, I do not have any dysphoria doing so).
I think that the switching between gender will be harder the more my female features develop.  Once I had surgery, I do not really want to be male again, because that means I am back in my original body.

Evan though it is not a standard transition, I think I am still trans because I do some kind of body switching (at least concerning my genitals).

This is a huge question and one that will be different from one of us to another. For me I have always been female in my mind but firstly didn't have the courage to do anything about it, just settled for cross dressing in private. At the age of 54 I discovered I had been born intersex and modified at birth, a small point which my parents neglected to share with me which will always upset and sadden me. Thankfully my partner, who knew most of my story said she would support me and I transitioned in 2016/2017.
Even though I had always thought of myself as female I played the part of a male because that was what was expected of me. Thankfully I never had children of my own as I felt I couldn't risk bringing another human being into the world as messed up as me.
I guess for me I only thought of myself as transgender during the period of making the decision, getting the go ahead (thankfully I was fast tracked through the system and was given the go ahead to book my surgery after only three months) and having the surgery. Once I had done that I didn't and don't feel transgender I just think of myself and feel female. I am lucky in that passing was never a problem, having had gynecomastia since I was thirteen which I now know was due to the intersex beginnings, I certainly didn't need any enhancement in the breast department which I'm sure helps. I've also had incredibly good support locally, never been misgendered and had the best medical support imaginable. One friend asked me if I was going to move to the city so no one would know me unlike the country town I live in as though I might be ashamed of what I was doing. In reply I told her I was incredibly proud of who I am and what I was doing and certainly wouldn't be moving and it's never been brought up again.
Walking down the Main Street of our town in a dress and heels gives me the biggest buzz ever, I look around me and know I look much more feminine than many of the cis gender women I pass. As I say, I know I am lucky but I've worked hard on my looks and body language, my only let down is my broad Yorkshire accent which is not surprising since I spent the first 45 years of my life there before emigrating here to Australia 12 years ago.
So in answer to the main question, I am definitely female even though I feel I also have the best of both worlds as I am physically as strong as most men my age, fit and agile which certainly has helped my recovery from two lots of surgery.
In the words of Robbie Williams, I love my life! It's just a pity it took me so long to get here!

Stephanie xx


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Quote from: Dietlind on December 05, 2018, 09:43:16 AM
If a person would prefer to be addressed with thy, it is their thing, but I would like to understand why they want this, because like I, they present still as a single individual, and not as several persons!
It is not that I would not respect their wish, but because of an almost academic interests, I would like to know why they have this wish?

I understand that English is not your first language, and I think this peculiarity of the English language is causing your confusion.

In this usage of the pronoun "they" by non-binary people, the word is not plural.  It is singular, and even the Oxford English Dictionary recognizes this.  https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ (https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)

In English, the neuter pronoun "it" is never acceptable for a human being.  Since there are no other alternatives that do not involve gender, the only available gender-neutral alternative is "they".  As the article notes, the use of "they" in the singular has a long history, traditionally used when referring to a single person of unknown gender.  Its use for a non-binary person is relatively new, but for most English-speakers, it is the preferable pronoun for someone who does not wish to be referred to by a gendered pronoun.

Based on experiences of one friend and a few famous folks I think they regard themselves as having trans-gendered through HRT, SRS etc.   My friend went through the process and packed up, moved to another state (For a while) and just lived being female.  The previous history?  Only relevant to people she was considering getting intimate with.  The stigma or complete bull >-bleeped-< of having to explain this to everyone and take loads of uninformed moronic hate?  I can see where you set your sites on the goal and don't want to get hip deep in the process.  Or arguments about it.

So one more unpopular (2 cents worth) on there being an ed to transgender.  As in having transgendered.   

Quote from: jill610 on November 30, 2018, 07:28:59 AM
I am going to buck the trend here and be unpopular.

Medically, genetically, we will always be "transgender".

However, we need the healthcare directed towards our end state gender. Our health issues align with the cis gender. As a trans woman, my risk of breast cancer increased, my risk of aneurysm decreased and my risk of prostate cancer decreased. For example.

Trans, by definition means to change.

So if I identify as a female, live as a female, socialize as a female, and in every way, am a female. Why would I still consider myself "trans". I just happen to have been born with a different body. I do not identify as a trans-woman. I identify as a woman. The further along in transition I get, the less I identify personally with the term trans.

When a caterpillar emerges from her cocoon, she is a butterfly. She is not a caterpillar with wings. She transitioned from one state to another, and the transitory phase completed. She is a butterfly.

Just my 2c.

One additional thought.   If you are born male and have an orchiectomy are you a "man"?  I think quite a few people (trans haters in particular) would say you were not.  So...  If you can have your testicles removed and go from man to eunuch why is it such a stretch to take it further and do HRT which clearly rewires the brain from male to female and using surgery return the penis to the Vaginal state?  I'm not saying this well but hopefully you all get the gist.

The people screaming about the impossibility of changing yourself sexually with hormones should (I think) try cross gender therapy for a few months and THEN make their loud rants about the topic they have no personal experience with.

Quote from: JanePlain on December 09, 2018, 01:31:12 PM
One additional thought.   If you are born male and have an orchiectomy are you a "man"?  I think quite a few people (trans haters in particular) would say you were not.  So...  If you can have your testicles removed and go from man to eunuch why is it such a stretch to take it further and do HRT which clearly rewires the brain from male to female and using surgery return the penis to the Vaginal state?  I'm not saying this well but hopefully you all get the gist.

The people screaming about the impossibility of changing yourself sexually with hormones should (I think) try cross gender therapy for a few months and THEN make their loud rants about the topic they have no personal experience with.

I've often thought the same thing. Let them experience HRT for 3 or 4 months and then get back to us on what and how they feel. I don't think they will have much more to rant on about.

Although I suppose if the hater is a cis female more estrogen won't have any effect on their brain.

Lisa

Yes it seems like TS folks have a wide variety of haters.   Probably my main reason to be having such a difficult time dealing with this.  SIGH....   

I suppose we should be happy that being TS is no longer considered a mental illness and that there are doctors and therapists that are more understanding.  It doesn't seem that long ago that this was all beyond the pale.

Quote from: Aceofblackdiamonds on December 09, 2018, 02:21:29 PM
I've often thought the same thing. Let them experience HRT for 3 or 4 months and then get back to us on what and how they feel. I don't think they will have much more to rant on about.

Although I suppose if the hater is a cis female more estrogen won't have any effect on their brain.

Lisa

In my last appointment with my Endocrine we talked about my sexuality and he asked do I prefer to be with man or woman.  I told him that though never cross my mind since I just concentrate on my transition only

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No one can unmake this, we are what we are. It doesn't have to be good or bad but that we or the world makes it so. No, it will never go away.

I personally think that transition is over when you reach you. When you finally need nothing left to define you and you are all that's left, transitioning is over.

This was interesting thread to read this morning.

  I will just say my female assimilation path is unique, and will never be the classic story of the young transwoman that starts her life anew. I have relationships that came with me from before, others that have no knowledge of my past, it's a unique blend. I continue to build new relationships as I move further from what I was. Life is a continuum, there is constant change, with most of my physical and social changes done, I can focus on new challenges, new learning, new experiences. I believe in life long learning and improvement, there is much to explore. I am happy and content today, I don't distance myself from "trans", I don't fear my past, I carry no mental baggage, I accept who I am and am at peace with it. Life is lovely today in my female form, what a blessing....

Cynthia -

I considered transition over after I had GRS. I will always be trans, the fact I can never have a child will always remind me of that fact. But I consider my transition over.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on November 30, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
For a mtf woman, when is transitioning "over"?  When we assimilate into society and live as a woman?

Even after transitioning is over, are we always transgender (mtf) women?  After all, after a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, it is known simply as a butterfly.  We are not of the male gender, we are of the female gender.  Many of our bodies may, externally at least, correspond with our female gender.

Are we ever simply accepted as women, and not as transwomen, as if we were born female?

If yes, does that require passing so well that people not knowing of your past have never thought of you as a transwoman but just one of many women?  Or does acceptance by others simply require kind, tolerant, understanding people even if we do not pass well?  That they respect our wishes to be accepted as women because we are women, that they not deadname us, that they use our preferred pronouns, and that they treat us fairly and like ladies?

How much and what transitioning do we need to have completed until it is reasonable for each of us to be thought of by others as a woman?

What do you think?

Chrissy

Hi Chrissy,
An excellent question and I suspect many differing views will exist.
For me transition is a personal journey, different for everyone. I identify female not trans (I got a form from the NHS only last week which had a question on that (gender identity) to which I answered female).
Transition remains an ongoing process but identity for me is clear. It's not defined by how others react to me though i'm more chilled when I do pass, of course.

Hope that helps.
Pammie. X


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Quote from: Julia1996 on April 28, 2019, 10:20:36 AM
I considered transition over after I had GRS. I will always be trans, the fact I can never have a child will always remind me of that fact. But I consider my transition over.

I now many cis women, who cannot have a child.  Either because their biology is not set for it, or they had an hysterectomy.
I don't think that having your biological child makes you more or less of a woman!
One cis woman, who is a close friend of mine, cannot have children, but she does not feel less cis than any other woman I know!  They have adopted children, and are very happy grandparents now!

Quote from: Dietlind on April 28, 2019, 01:01:04 PM
I now many cis women, who cannot have a child.  Either because their biology is not set for it, or they had an hysterectomy.
I don't think that having your biological child makes you more or less of a woman!
One cis woman, who is a close friend of mine, cannot have children, but she does not feel less cis than any other woman I know!  They have adopted children, and are very happy grandparents now!

Exactly. We should try not to constrain our identity in that way if possible. I've not had GRS yet but will do at some point but I still identify female even so.


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For me transition will be over when I will have had breast augmentation surgery.

The big steps in my transition were:

1) coming out socially and dressing and presenting as I wanted and felt like.
2) starting hormone replacement therapy ( Estradiol )
3) starting permanent laser hair removal
4) having my name and gender marker updated
5) breast implants. This still needs to be done. Currently saving up for it.

Then my transition will be over.

I pass well and my chromosomes and my underwear content are none of any random strangers' business.

Will I ever be cis? No.
Will I always be trans? Yes.
Will I always be in transition? No.

I really don't know?  i was born mostly female, made into a male, and went back to be a female.  Sometimes i wonder if I can call my situation to be transgender or not?
Once I am fully back into a female again, I will be way closer to a cis female than to a cis male (chromosome wise), but I still will have some male biology inside me.  For most of the time I feel the same like a cis female, kind like a cis female who had an hysterectomy I really don't know.  I think once i had everything done, I will not consider myself to be trans anymore, transition, or some kind of it, was the way how I got to the point at wich I am.

I wonder how other intersex persons feel about this?

Quote from: Dietlind on April 28, 2019, 01:01:04 PM
I now many cis women, who cannot have a child.  Either because their biology is not set for it, or they had an hysterectomy.
I don't think that having your biological child makes you more or less of a woman!
One cis woman, who is a close friend of mine, cannot have children, but she does not feel less cis than any other woman I know!  They have adopted children, and are very happy grandparents now!

I know lots of Cis women can't have kids. But it's the reason I can't have them that bothers me. I think of down the road when Tristan might want kids and I can't give him any. It just depresses me at times. Tristan and I have talked about kids and he said if we want kids down the road he was fine with adopting them. But it just bothers me that I can't give him his own children.

Quote from: Julia1996 on April 28, 2019, 05:15:39 PM
I know lots of Cis women can't have kids. But it's the reason I can't have them that bothers me. I think of down the road when Tristan might want kids and I can't give him any. It just depresses me at times. Tristan and I have talked about kids and he said if we want kids down the road he was fine with adopting them. But it just bothers me that I can't give him his own children.

You can adopt kids and they become his and your own children!    Don't connect your fem-dome with only ovaries and a uterus.  You are way more than these few body parts only.  It is your personality that makes Tristan to be with you, and not a uterus or ovaries.  It is your personality that keeps Tristan with you (and you seem to be a good cook - the Germans say that a mans love goes through his stomach), and not some kids that were produced by some uterus.  Way to many relations fell apart because the couple focused on these bodily functions only!
I know that I have an ovary, and might have a uterus floating around somewhere inside me, but those body pieces do not define me!  My personality does!  My personality will not change if they would find a uterus inside me or not!

The same is true with your personality, you are not less of a person, because you don't have those pieces, and Tristan will not love you any less because of this!
If you adopt infants they will grow into your very own kids, no matter by which uterus they were hatched!

I think this question will really vary depending on you're asking, because people's motivations and life goals are all different even if the process is superficially the same.

I don't consider myself transgender. It's too broad of a term which encompasses lots of definitions, and makes it a bit blurry for me. For me the phenomenon is very specific and the term I would use is transsexual, because it describes my experience accurately. For various reasons which may be attributed to various dimensions, including, but not limited to: social, cultural, biological, etc, I leaned towards the feminine in almost everything, which made living as boy impossible without causing everyone a lot of confusion, perplexity from those around me. I also suffered from body dysphoria. I transitioned because I realized, over time, that given the cards I had been dealt with and body dysphoria I felt over the things that made me (yuck!!!) biologically male, I knew I would live much better as a girl, and later, woman.

Additionally, the fact that not all male secondary sex characteristics developed me for me (such as a low voice, beard, broad shoulders, muscles, etc) due to reasons I never cared to further investigate, that made it even harder for me to fit in the world and know where I belong to. But made it extremely easy for me to make the leap and live as a woman. It was extremely easy to integrate in groups as girl. Suddenly, everything was so smooth. I started voluteering in a orphanage, when I was 18. I showed up (was still not out to everyone), had been on HRT for two months and the first time I entered the orphanage, a girl was walking out of the truck, she worked there, and I asked her if I was at the right place and she referred to me as a girl, and I froze. Will always remember this moment. I wasn't wearing makeup, had short curly hair still and didn't even wear a bra, was with a sweatshirt. But she didn't even hesitate. I then presented myself to everyone as a girl and on that day I was sure I could live as a girl all the time. Before HRT, I already confused people.

What made it harder for me to transition was my parents, who insisited on not accepting and not coming around. They finally did and paid for my SRS on September 2017. I am forever thankful that they did accept. I think having a family who accepts and supports rather than tolerates or hates who you are makes a big difference on how well adjusted you become, after transition. Being passable can obviously be very important. I just wanted to go on with my life and now I rarely think of it.

Transsexual for me is only a medical term. I live as a woman and, therefore, being a woman is a part of my identity just like having dark hair or green eyes is. I don't think of it any other way. Transition is temporary, that's why it's called transition. For me, social transition was over when everyone in my circles either accepted me as girl or only knew me as such (and therefore it became impratical to tell). It's not a term I like to flaunt, and that is my right. Just like someone who has had some kind of cancer (excuse me the analogy) does not have to hold as a badge if they don't want to (but they certainly can if that's their wish). Medical transition was over when all my secondary and primary characteristics aligned with female.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with how my transition went, even if I had a very rough start because of lack of support which made everything 10 times harder, but I wouldn't have lived many adventures, if it had been another way, so there's a good side to everything.

sorry for the wall of text, TDLR: transsexual describes the medical experience better, so I opt for that term but do not use on a daily life basis, so much written to have it sumed up like that lol

Quote from: Aurorasky on April 29, 2019, 02:23:34 PM
I think this question will really vary depending on you're asking, because people's motivations and life goals are all different even if the process is superficially the same.

I don't consider myself transgender. It's too broad of a term which encompasses lots of definitions, and makes it a bit blurry for me. For me the phenomenon is very specific and the term I would use is transsexual, because it describes my experience accurately. For various reasons which may be attributed to various dimensions, including, but not limited to: social, cultural, biological, etc, I leaned towards the feminine in almost everything, which made living as boy impossible without causing everyone a lot of confusion, perplexity from those around me. I also suffered from body dysphoria. I transitioned because I realized, over time, that given the cards I had been dealt with and body dysphoria I felt over the things that made me (yuck!!!) biologically male, I knew I would live much better as a girl, and later, woman.

Additionally, the fact that not all male secondary sex characteristics developed me for me (such as a low voice, beard, broad shoulders, muscles, etc) due to reasons I never cared to further investigate, that made it even harder for me to fit in the world and know where I belong to. But made it extremely easy for me to make the leap and live as a woman. It was extremely easy to integrate in groups as girl. Suddenly, everything was so smooth. I started voluteering in a orphanage, when I was 18. I showed up (was still not out to everyone), had been on HRT for two months and the first time I entered the orphanage, a girl was walking out of the truck, she worked there, and I asked her if I was at the right place and she referred to me as a girl, and I froze. Will always remember this moment. I wasn't wearing makeup, had short curly hair still and didn't even wear a bra, was with a sweatshirt. But she didn't even hesitate. I then presented myself to everyone as a girl and on that day I was sure I could live as a girl all the time. Before HRT, I already confused people.

What made it harder for me to transition was my parents, who insisited on not accepting and not coming around. They finally did and paid for my SRS on September 2017. I am forever thankful that they did accept. I think having a family who accepts and supports rather than tolerates or hates who you are makes a big difference on how well adjusted you become, after transition. Being passable can obviously be very important. I just wanted to go on with my life and now I rarely think of it.

Transsexual for me is only a medical term. I live as a woman and, therefore, being a woman is a part of my identity just like having dark hair or green eyes is. I don't think of it any other way. Transition is temporary, that's why it's called transition. For me, social transition was over when everyone in my circles either accepted me as girl or only knew me as such (and therefore it became impratical to tell). It's not a term I like to flaunt, and that is my right. Just like someone who has had some kind of cancer (excuse me the analogy) does not have to hold as a badge if they don't want to (but they certainly can if that's their wish). Medical transition was over when all my secondary and primary characteristics aligned with female.

Overall, I couldn't be happier with how my transition went, even if I had a very rough start because of lack of support which made everything 10 times harder, but I wouldn't have lived many adventures, if it had been another way, so there's a good side to everything.

sorry for the wall of text, TDLR: transsexual describes the medical experience better, so I opt for that term but do not use on a daily life basis, so much written to have it sumed up like that lol

This was a really beautiful post and if anything it was not long enough. 

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on November 30, 2018, 12:36:39 AM
For a mtf woman, when is transitioning "over"?  When we assimilate into society and live as a woman?

Even after transitioning is over, are we always transgender (mtf) women?  After all, after a caterpillar transforms into a butterfly, it is known simply as a butterfly.  We are not of the male gender, we are of the female gender.  Many of our bodies may, externally at least, correspond with our female gender.

Are we ever simply accepted as women, and not as transwomen, as if we were born female?

If yes, does that require passing so well that people not knowing of your past have never thought of you as a transwoman but just one of many women?  Or does acceptance by others simply require kind, tolerant, understanding people even if we do not pass well?  That they respect our wishes to be accepted as women because we are women, that they not deadname us, that they use our preferred pronouns, and that they treat us fairly and like ladies?

How much and what transitioning do we need to have completed until it is reasonable for each of us to be thought of by others as a woman?

What do you think?

Chrissy

It's over when you say it's over. What I consider over is maybe not what other people consider as being over or you would consider over. Why fret about it? One day you'll wake up and say to yourself, phew I'm glad that's over.

QuoteMeaning is personal, each individual determines meaning in their own head, the meaning does not happen "out there" meaning is a mental function. 

Meaning of the words is something objective, not subjective. Word "transgender" have quite obvious definition. Everything else is just playing with words.

Everyone have different sets of main goals, and they can call transitioning over when they reach them all. There might be some tweaks but they aren't prioritized. And yeah, we're always transgenders. If it fits you better, transgender women :) This term might be important for medicine, because, well, we never born women and right now humanity don't have solution to make us girls fully from biological point of view instead of imitation of them.

I was having dinner last night with a long time female friend.   She has been aware of all I have been going through in my transition.  She is not knowledgeable at all on trans issues and has mostly learned about it from me.   When I was describing myself as a transgender person in one conversation she felt the need to speak out.   "I don't think you are any longer transgender, you are now a woman!"

For me, I think I will always be transgender. There will always be items to remind me of who I used to be, starting with some simple medical things like having to schedule a prostate exam / PSA test. I am also contempt with my past. I would never delete or destroy any pictures from my previous life.

Transition I think will have an endpoint. Right now there are plateaus. HRT, tell my coworkers and go full time. Most recently GRS. The only thing left is changing all the legal name and gender.

I think on each plateau I can remain longer than on the previous one. Right now I am not planning any more surgeries. If this remains, then I would consider my transition complete after the official name change.

Considering my case, I don't even know if I ever have been transgender or not.  According to the laws in Germany, and intersex person cannot be transgender, because the intersex condition makes one already belonging to either gender.
i was made into a man after I was born, and now I am back pretty much to the condition with which I am born, mostly female with a little bit of male left.  I did not need HRT to grow boobs, or loose body hair,or keep my full head of hair.  All that was done by nature.
But I was a man, and I am now a woman, that would make me trans, at least what I think, and that will never be different.

Quote from: Dietlind on May 04, 2019, 11:21:05 AM
Considering my case, I don't even know if I ever have been transgender or not.  According to the laws in Germany, and intersex person cannot be transgender, because the intersex condition makes one already belonging to either gender.
i was made into a man after I was born, and now I am back pretty much to the condition with which I am born, mostly female with a little bit of male left.  I did not need HRT to grow boobs, or loose body hair,or keep my full head of hair.  All that was done by nature.
But I was a man, and I am now a woman, that would make me trans, at least what I think, and that will never be different.

Here is my opinion. If they did medical intervention when you were a child to make you appear male and you do not need HRT for breasts,  and naturally have no facial or body hair then you are Female. I don't care what male characteristics may also have been present when you were born, I think you were meant to be female and something just went wrong in utero. Just like I feel I was supposed to be born normal but something went wrong and I was born albino. I often wonder how much prettier I would be with normal color skin, hair and eyes. Sigh.

Quote from: Julia1996 on May 04, 2019, 11:37:47 AM
Here is my opinion. If they did medical intervention when you were a child to make you appear male and you do not need HRT for breasts,  and naturally have no facial or body hair then you are Female. I don't care what male characteristics may also have been present when you were born, I think you were meant to be female and something just went wrong in utero. Just like I feel I was supposed to be born normal but something went wrong and I was born albino. I often wonder how much prettier I would be with normal color skin, hair and eyes. Sigh.

If the avatar is you or close to how you look, you are a darn pretty girl, albino or not!
The only male indicators I have/had, were my genitals and a very slight growth of facial hair.  I don't know about my voice, it is pretty high frequency when I talk, no matter whether it is male speech or female.
But I also have a prostate and one ovary.  I am just a mixed bag of chromosomes.  My mother had two pregnancies before me, and I feel as if I got the left over chromosomes from those.  I always was told that I look and behave identical to my oldest sister (she was murdered when still little).
In Germany, I could legally decide what gender I want tobe, no big deal, because I do not have a clearly defined gender.  I also could decide to be a third gender.  But in this country, one has to be either male or female.  I tried mail for a while, and failed.  That is the reason that I am now a woman (legally), but I still don't know if I am transgender or not?

It called intersex for a reason. Apparently, she was meant to be not male nor female (or to be both of them, whatever).

Quote from: Dietlind on May 04, 2019, 12:18:36 PM
If the avatar is you or close to how you look, you are a darn pretty girl, albino or not!
The only male indicators I have/had, were my genitals and a very slight growth of facial hair.  I don't know about my voice, it is pretty high frequency when I talk, no matter whether it is male speech or female.
But I also have a prostate and one ovary.  I am just a mixed bag of chromosomes.  My mother had two pregnancies before me, and I feel as if I got the left over chromosomes from those.  I always was told that I look and behave identical to my oldest sister (she was murdered when still little).
In Germany, I could legally decide what gender I want tobe, no big deal, because I do not have a clearly defined gender.  I also could decide to be a third gender.  But in this country, one has to be either male or female.  I tried mail for a while, and failed.  That is the reason that I am now a woman (legally), but I still don't know if I am transgender or not?

Thank you. Yes my avatar picture is me. The only difference is I was wearing my chocolate brown tinted contact lenses which I love but I no longer wear. Tristan really likes my natural eye color which is a pink/lavender color. He asked me to stop wearing any of my tinted contacts and just go with my natural eye color so I have. I like wearing tinted contacts but since Tristan was talking about maybe growing a beard and did not after I asked him to, I can stop wearing the tinted lenses for him. I don't know why he would want to cover his handsome face with an ugly beard anyway! . Well, it doesn't really matter what you are. I'm glad you're on Susan's and I enjoy your posts a lot. As for your avatar you look like an attractive mature lady. I would never guess you were anything else if I saw you in public.

Quote from: Dorit on May 04, 2019, 09:12:17 AM
I was having dinner last night with a long time female friend.   She has been aware of all I have been going through in my transition.  She is not knowledgeable at all on trans issues and has mostly learned about it from me.   When I was describing myself as a transgender person in one conversation she felt the need to speak out.   "I don't think you are any longer transgender, you are now a woman!"

I think your friend sounds great! I'm glad that there are people who don't reject the possibility of going from man to woman (Or the other way around)  What with people all being female until the 3rd month of pregnancy I don't see that this is really that difficult to accept.  Which of course will make some people insanely angry.  Anyway thanks for sharing that.  It gives hope to some of us listening too much to uptight transphobic types.

Quote from: sarah1972 on May 04, 2019, 09:50:40 AM
For me, I think I will always be transgender. There will always be items to remind me of who I used to be, starting with some simple medical things like having to schedule a prostate exam / PSA test. I am also contempt with my past. I would never delete or destroy any pictures from my previous life.

Transition I think will have an endpoint. Right now there are plateaus. HRT, tell my coworkers and go full time. Most recently GRS. The only thing left is changing all the legal name and gender.

I think on each plateau I can remain longer than on the previous one. Right now I am not planning any more surgeries. If this remains, then I would consider my transition complete after the official name change.

How would it be if you had your prostate removed?  Undergoing SRS, living your life on HRT for the rest of your life?  It just seems like there has to be some acceptable point where your not (As I've heard) a man who by saying he is female is deluded. Which steams me up even tho I've only done the HRT and Orchiectomy so far.

Quote from: JanePlain on May 03, 2019, 07:45:29 PM
This was a really beautiful post and if anything it was not long enough.

Aw, Thank you! 😊 I could detail more but I wouldn't know how without posting another wall of text! Was there anything in particular that you would like me to expand further?

Good point. For me it is mostly a social thing. I am a woman, I am accepted as a woman, I participate in typical women activities and I am a member of women only social groups (running group for moms).
It still does not change that I have a past. That I have to take hormones for the rest of my life. Well, many women do to. And my voice still needs a lot of work.

I do not advertise that I am transgender, I do not share this information with people I meet. But if they ask, I will not hide it either. A few in my running group figured out about me. It has not changed anything.

So... I am a woman with a past. And there will always be reminders. I am in my mid 40's and I have gotten to know many people over the years. They all know my past.

My transition will be over at some point. My past will never go away.

Hope this makes sense.

Hugs,

Sarah

Quote from: JanePlain on May 05, 2019, 02:43:13 AM
How would it be if you had your prostate removed?  Undergoing SRS, living your life on HRT for the rest of your life?  It just seems like there has to be some acceptable point where your not (As I've heard) a man who by saying he is female is deluded. Which steams me up even tho I've only done the HRT and Orchiectomy so far.

My own definition of transgender (as I apply to myself) is that I always will be transgender. I was born physically male, I was socialized male. I am changing that to match my internal identification. What I change does not negate or remove where I came from. Thus, I will always consider myself transgender .. I transcended from what I was (well, eventually)

transition, as it relates to the OP, Will it end? IMO, yes. Transition as it relates to being transgender will end, for me, when I have reached a satisfactory point of change where I live my life as me, as myself, with no underlying depressions or dysphoria pushing me to change 'just one more thing'. Pushing myself to change that next thing that 'isn't quite right' to become the woman I was meant to be. I do differentiate between gender dysphoric changes to become myself and cosmetic changes of dislike. I really don't like my nose and I want it corrected .. it is not gender dysphoric, I just don't like it!!

Everyone transitions for their entire life, it doesn't end even when you're dead. Physically, as you return to the elements of which you are composed of. Spiritually, for those that believe, as you transition on to the next level of existence.

Yes, you're always transgender.  This isn't really up for debate; this is reality and factual.  End of story.

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 05, 2019, 05:33:45 PM
Yes, you're always transgender.  This isn't really up for debate; this is reality and factual.  End of story.

Wow, easy with the horses young lady!

What about people like I? I was born both, and made into a male.  That was big transition for me, and caused me a lot of dysphoria, because I was not able to be like the other guys!  My body is genetically way more female than male, and later I transitioned back from male to female.  Am I double transgender now?  Or not transgender at all?

I don't like if others use absolutes to put labels on me and put me into a predetermined box!
The only fact that I cannot change is that I am intersex, because that is what the biology of my body is, but it is pretty much up to me to decide, whether I consider myself to be transgender or not!

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 05, 2019, 04:57:47 AM
Aw, Thank you! 😊 I could detail more but I wouldn't know how without posting another wall of text! Was there anything in particular that you would like me to expand further?

Put me down for a wall of text!  I'm curious how things are going now or really anything you think is interesting.

Quote from: Dietlind on May 05, 2019, 09:03:28 PM
Wow, easy with the horses young lady!

What about people like I? I was born both, and made into a male.  That was big transition for me, and caused me a lot of dysphoria, because I was not able to be like the other guys!  My body is genetically way more female than male, and later I transitioned back from male to female.  Am I double transgender now?  Or not transgender at all?

I don't like if others use absolutes to put labels on me and put me into a predetermined box!
The only fact that I cannot change is that I am intersex, because that is what the biology of my body is, but it is pretty much up to me to decide, whether I consider myself to be transgender or not!

Hi Dietlind!  Ich spreche sehr wenig und schlecht, aber Ich spreche :p

Thanks for your reply :)   You are (as you stated) intersex and not, as the thread title states MtF.  I was merely answering the thread title question, but more than happy to engage with you.

From what anecdotal evidence I have seen, intersexed individuals are very rare and unique.  As such, classification (if that word can suit you) is more personalized and individual instead of broadly labeled is it not?  But intersexed individuals still are under the same umbrella as we all are as transgender individuals, wouldn't you agree?

Cis-Male ( MtF / Intersex / FtM ) Cis-Female

Sorry if I come across as brash (that's just my posting style; always has been I'm afraid), but the question "Are we always transgender?" is just... I mean, think about it.  I simply don't understand why it's even a question heh.  I'm all ears and willing to have a discussion about it though :)

Aurora honey, I love you babe, but I disagree with ya wholeheartedly about this topic <3

If you think about it, transitioning only actually occurs when you go under for surgery and during the recovery period...

Sent from my SM-J260T1 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 05, 2019, 05:33:45 PM
Yes, you're always transgender.  This isn't really up for debate; this is reality and factual.  End of story.

I disagree. By labelling myself as permanently transgender, I feel like I would be denying that I have always had the mentality of a female. Which (please dont take this the wrong way) would be saying I was a man disguising myself as a female. Which, I'm totally not ok with.

I am a woman suffering from a genetic anomally. That's my stance. Please feel free to disagree, but again as stated in a previous post: transitioning only occurs during that period of time that you go under the knife.

To constantly be in a state of transition? No thank you.

I am a woman. Plain and simple.

Sent from my SM-J260T1 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 05, 2019, 11:59:08 PM
Hi Dietlind!  Ich spreche sehr wenig und schlecht, aber Ich spreche :p

Thanks for your reply :)   You are (as you stated) intersex and not, as the thread title states MtF.  I was merely answering the thread title question, but more than happy to engage with you.

From what anecdotal evidence I have seen, intersexed individuals are very rare and unique.  As such, classification (if that word can suit you) is more personalized and individual instead of broadly labeled is it not?  But intersexed individuals still are under the same umbrella as we all are as transgender individuals, wouldn't you agree?

Cis-Male ( MtF / Intersex / FtM ) Cis-Female

Sorry if I come across as brash (that's just my posting style; always has been I'm afraid), but the question "Are we always transgender?" is just... I mean, think about it.  I simply don't understand why it's even a question heh.  I'm all ears and willing to have a discussion about it though :)

Aurora honey, I love you babe, but I disagree with ya wholeheartedly about this topic <3

Hi potato V, your German seems to be pretty good to me!  You could hang around the German language section here on Susan's, and talk there with us a little!
I would not say that us people with different intersex syndromes (I like that better than being called intersexed, which reminds me on over sexed) are a rare bread, because they tell us now that about one in 250 new born's has such syndromes.  Most of them can't be identified without pretty involved testing.  I seem to have won the grand price of intersex, because i have a whole bunch of the different syndromes inside my body.  But that is another story.

However, i consider myself to also be trans, because I presented as a male, and had some of the male equipment, not that much of it, just the genitals (I guess what I had was called ambiguous at the time of my birth), and some mild beard growth.  But nevertheless, it was decided that I am a male, and off I went into manliness!  And leaving this manliness behind was through transition into a female.  My body was mostly there already (when they made the decision for me to be male or female, they had a 50/50 chance, and I guess they picked the wrong 50%), my brain had to follow.  I never had the feeling as if my mind was housed in the wrong body, which I read here so many of the trans women had already pretty early in their life.  i can't really recall any feeling for any gender, I had a body, and was told that I am male, and I tried to be male.  This was hard and caused a lot of frustration for me, because I could not keep up with my peers.  Everything changed with puberty, at least with my peers, nothing happened with me, except a little pubic hair in a female pattern close to Tanner III.  I learned to modulate my voice to sound a little bit closer to a guy.
Did I feel like a guy, I don't know, I tried I know that, and failed again.  This not being able to be a guy while I was supposed to be one, was the cause of almost all my frustration, I guess, today we would call it dysphoria.
Looking back, i never had any real gender identity, I did not feel male or female, I just was there and tried to play my role as good as I could.  Until I could not do it anymore, because my body remembered that i was a female and presented me with my menopause.  This was the beginning of my transition into a female, I seem to be able to play this role way better than the male one, because my body is playing along, but I still don't have a very clear gender identity.
And I don't even know whether I am trans or not.  The current laws in Germany spell out that a intersex person cannot be trans at the same time.  Their reasoning is that we don't have a defined gender, and one can be only trans if one transitioned from one gender to another.  The German law allows for a third gender for us intersex people.

Because of these muddy waters I still consider my move from intersex to male and later to female as transitions, but once I have finished this move I do not consider myself to be trans anymore, because biologically I seem to be closer to a cis female than to a cis male.

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 05, 2019, 11:59:08 PM
Aurora honey, I love you babe, but I disagree with ya wholeheartedly about this topic <3

Hey :) I don't think we actually disagree. I see your point. I think it's more of a preferred terminology thing. I don't use the word transgender at all, and describe myself as a transsexual, if I have to. My post was intented to explain that, on a daily basis, I feel no need to advertise, flaunt that as badge, or give any explanation. I live as a woman, and everybody recognizes me as such, nothing more. I'm not delusional to think that it doesn't affect the medical care I receive, but that's about it.

I'm a woman.  The path I took to this point in my life is more complex than most, and I summarize it as being 'transgender.'   

That is, 'transgender' is an adjective that summarizes my path to this current point in my life.  The details are something for myself, and the most intimate of partners,.

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 06, 2019, 09:51:57 AM
Hey :) I don't think we actually disagree. I see your point. I think it's more of a preferred terminology thing. I don't use the word transgender at all, and describe myself as a transsexual, if I have to. My post was intented to explain that, on a daily basis, I feel no need to advertise, flaunt that as badge, or give any explanation. I live as a woman, and everybody recognizes me as such, nothing more. I'm not delusional to think that it doesn't affect the medical care I receive, but that's about it.

Aurora - I agree with you.  I'm grateful to people who did flaunt the badge to help make this problem something more people can try to wrap their heads around but I'm not willing to march in the front of the parade. 

Its fear for me that limits my willingness to jump out there.  I think there is a disconnect when naysayers go nut job saying its just men (or women) "in drag"  And I'm not saying that to get crossdressers spun up.  If someone is on HRT has had bottom surgery (And possibly other types) how is that sort of person just a man in a dress?  Is there some sort of locker room way to validate how your brain is wired and the things you've done to sync that up?

For people like us.  Is this a matter of people loving the drive but denying the destination?

I'm overthinking this again - I think.

I do see myself as trans anymore as I feel I have completed my transition.

I completed it when I had my Srs.

I am now just a woman

I dress like a lady, I am accepted as a woman by people, I have a female body shape, breasts, a vagina between my legs.

I think like a woman and I am even a wife to a man. I play the female role in the relationship with my husband.

I can't imagine being any other way.. I am a woman .. that's it

Quote from: noleen111 on May 09, 2019, 09:31:38 AM
I do see myself as trans anymore as I feel I have completed my transition.

I completed it when I had my Srs.

I am now just a woman

I dress like a lady, I am accepted as a woman by people, I have a female body shape, breasts, a vagina between my legs.

I think like a woman and I am even a wife to a man. I play the female role in the relationship with my husband.

I can't imagine being any other way.. I am a woman .. that's it

THANK YOU!

Sent from my SM-J260T1 using Tapatalk

For me, it will never be over as I will always be "Me".  And "Me" is a mixture of both the maleness I grew up with and the feminine I have always felt and now am unleashing. I am Gods creation which is not one or the other but something else.  Inside I am woman, outside I am man and even when my outside changes many decades of habits will not just disappear.  I will always be some blend of both and I embrace that.

Bea

Quote from: Michelle_P on May 06, 2019, 03:17:27 PM
I'm a woman.  The path I took to this point in my life is more complex than most, and I summarize it as being 'transgender.'   

That is, 'transgender' is an adjective that summarizes my path to this current point in my life.  The details are something for myself, and the most intimate of partners,.

We went back and forth about this before I was banned for a few months awhile ago.  Do you remember? LoL

My stance is exactly what it was back then:

I'm proud to be a biological male who transitioned from that to a transgendered female and have no internalized transphobia due to this pride because I, unlike what I suspect the people who disagree with me harbor, feel that being a transgendered woman instead of "just a woman" is somehow lesser and to be avoided.

Regardless how society treats me, how I look, how I act, and how I sound, my chromosomes, genitalia, prostate, lack of a uterus and my memories are a life-long reminder of the truth... and the truth should never be something to fear or not accept.

I mean, granted I don't wear a sign of my body that says to the world, "Hey guys, I'm a biological male."  But if pressed on that, it's like... yeah, that's what is what.

Why is that a problem?  I dunno... y'all tell me.

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 09, 2019, 10:13:46 AM
We went back and forth about this before I was banned for a few months awhile ago.  Do you remember? LoL

My stance is exactly what it was back then:

I'm proud to be a biological male who transitioned from that to a transgendered female and have no internalized transphobia due to this pride because I, unlike what I suspect the people who disagree with me harbor, feel that being a transgendered woman instead of "just a woman" is somehow lesser and to be avoided.

Regardless how society treats me, how I look, how I act, and how I sound, my chromosomes, genitalia, prostate, lack of a uterus and my memories are a life-long reminder of the truth... and the truth should never be something to fear or not accept.

I mean, granted I don't wear a sign of my body that says to the world, "Hey guys, I'm a biological male."  But if pressed on that, it's like... yeah, that's what is what.

Why is that a problem?  I dunno... y'all tell me.

Yeah, I'll never get as far as "completing" transition, so it's a non-issue for me. I still struggle, but my ultimate goal is to be comfortable as part-each male/female/nonbinary me. I am proud of who I am and will always be.

Sent from my Victor 9000 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 09, 2019, 10:13:46 AM

...

I'm proud to be a biological male who transitioned from that to a transgendered female and have no internalized transphobia due to this pride because I, unlike what I suspect the people who disagree with me harbor, feel that being a transgendered woman instead of "just a woman" is somehow lesser and to be avoided.
...

+1 for that.

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 09, 2019, 10:13:46 AMI mean, granted I don't wear a sign of my body that says to the world, "Hey guys, I'm a biological male."  But if pressed on that, it's like... yeah, that's what is what.

Why is that a problem?  I dunno... y'all tell me.

This makes sense for me.

I suppose there are different definitions of "biological male" out there. 

Medically, I have a vulva and vagina.  My serum estradiol and testosterone levels are female normal.  FMRI shows a neurotypical female differentiation in brain tissue.

Removed tissue from a surgery 18 months ago included a pathology report indicating uterine hypoplasia.  (Just found this gem in the records.)

Genetically, active and methylated genes look typically female.  Karyotype is interesting, with many cells showing XY chromosomes, some showing XX, and some showing X.

Yes, I'm a lab rat for an ongoing research project.  Lots of oddball things added to my medical record the past couple of years.  Yay Kaiser.  You now have medical information on me I have not disclosed to anyone before.

I'm not sure 'male' fits me medically.  It sure doesn't fit psychologically.  So, I'll go with 'woman' or 'female' on all the silly paperwork that asks about gender or sex.  It seems the most honest answer to me.

I went through a medical transition process to arrive at my current state, resolving gender incongruities between body and mind.  This means that I am a transgender person.  Big surprise, huh?

I don't worry about policing other people, or assigning their gender identities.  They can do their thing, and I'll do mine.

And along comes Linde, who actually does not know what she is.
I know that most of my genetic makeup is female, because a genome analysis says that I have the typical genetic makeup of a post menopausal female.  I know that I have an ovary and a prostate. I know that I have XXY chromosomes and several other intersex conditions.  I was told that I am 2/3 female, and I know that I was made into a male, and that gave me the "blessings" of a penis and one functioning testicle (that is gone now), the rest of my body stayed pretty much female/neutral.  I lived as a guy many years, and now I live as a female.  The absolute only change for this is the removal of the penis and replacing it with a vagina.

Am I a transgender person or am I just reclaiming what should have been there all my life?  What am I after SRS?  I can't consider myself a biological male, because I never have been one!  Shall I continue the rest of my life as an IT?

I feel that I am a woman, and always have been a woman and was just forced to do a period of cross dressing to meet the criteria of society!

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 09, 2019, 10:13:46 AM
We went back and forth about this before I was banned for a few months awhile ago.  Do you remember? LoL

My stance is exactly what it was back then:

I'm proud to be a biological male who transitioned from that to a transgendered female and have no internalized transphobia due to this pride because I, unlike what I suspect the people who disagree with me harbor, feel that being a transgendered woman instead of "just a woman" is somehow lesser and to be avoided.

Regardless how society treats me, how I look, how I act, and how I sound, my chromosomes, genitalia, prostate, lack of a uterus and my memories are a life-long reminder of the truth... and the truth should never be something to fear or not accept.

I mean, granted I don't wear a sign of my body that says to the world, "Hey guys, I'm a biological male."  But if pressed on that, it's like... yeah, that's what is what.

Why is that a problem?  I dunno... y'all tell me.

I think it's awesome that you're proud to be trans. Myself I could never be proud of being trans. To me being trans is a cruel twist of fate that has caused me great misery.  And yes, to me being a transwomen means being not a "real" woman or less than equal to a cis woman. At this point I want to live in as deep stealth that I possibly can. I can never be proud of something that has caused me so much pain and heartache. My brother's thoughts on this subject baffle me. Once I was talking about if there is anyway to get rid of any legal records which have my sex as male on them. Tyler said " why do stress so hard about trying to erase the fact you're trans? You actually should be proud of being trans. You started out in life as a boy and now you are a beautiful girl. You're prettier than most cis girls I know. You should totally be proud of that".  I don't understand his feelings about this. I do wonder though if he actually had lived life as a Trans woman himself if he would still think being trans was something to be so proud of. I'm thinking probably not.

for me transition was over after SRS and I just felt like myself and that I completed that part of my life. It took a good month for me to move on when I did realize this. but its a great feeling to feel complete in that way so you can move on.

Quote from: Julia1996 on May 23, 2019, 02:55:13 AM
And yes, to me being a transwomen means being not a "real" woman or less than equal to a cis woman.

I agree that it means not a real woman either, and that's great to hear it from someone on here because many MANY other people would call that horribly transphobic, and yet... it's really not; it's called reality.  But just because that's what is what, I don't feel like I'm lesser for it at all; no more than a banana is "lesser" than a kiwi; that aspect of it is subjective.

Quote from: Julia1996 on May 23, 2019, 02:55:13 AMAt this point I want to live in as deep stealth that I possibly can.

Aye, I can relate.  It's not in the cards for me personally (I never get misgendered, but I'm pretty sure some eagle-eyed people "suspect".  Besides, true stealth doesn't exist imho.  Someone will *always* know... and that's okay.

Quote from: Julia1996 on May 23, 2019, 02:55:13 AMTyler said " why do stress so hard about trying to erase the fact you're trans? You actually should be proud of being trans. You started out in life as a boy and now you are a beautiful girl. You're prettier than most cis girls I know. You should totally be proud of that".  I don't understand his feelings about this. I do wonder though if he actually had lived life as a Trans woman himself if he would still think being trans was something to be so proud of. I'm thinking probably not.

I lived the life and I think it's something to be proud of!  It's extremely unique, no matter how you slice it.  I'm sure that's little consolation for you, but know that I also think I understand why you lack pride in it too.  My wish is that you don't hate yourself or get depressed over it :(

I've always been a woman. The DNA didn't quite match but my soul and mind is female. I don't identify as anything but female. I pass just fine and no one need see whats down below except my girl friend.

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 05, 2019, 05:33:45 PM
Yes, you're always transgender.  This isn't really up for debate; this is reality and factual.  End of story.

As someone who will likely never pass, I'm still completely in sympathy with those who choose to live stealth to whatever degree.

Sure, to most eyes I'm a male in a dress (to prove that I just went to my 45th HS reunion and got referred to in a nasty email after as "look like <deadname> in a dress".

I didn't need that insult to recognize that 99.99% of the population will never 'get' that I'm female and always was.

My women friends uniformly get it, hell it was a lesbian I was in a relationship with who saw me clearly enough to recognize me as a woman that got me started. Some of the men get it, I think that men, being on the 'advantage' side of gender privilege are far less likely to understand any nuanced views of gender.

So thanks, the 'facts' as to how I arrived here don't change that I identity as a woman and am recognized as such by the people I care about. Transgender is part of my history, not so much part of my here & now.

Quote from: Ⓥ on May 23, 2019, 06:25:54 PM
I agree that it means not a real woman either, and that's great to hear it from someone on here because many MANY other people would call that horribly transphobic, and yet... it's really not; it's called reality.  But just because that's what is what, I don't feel like I'm lesser for it at all; no more than a banana is "lesser" than a kiwi; that aspect of it is subjective.

What, in your opinion, manifests a real woman?  Female reproductive organs?  Some cis women are born without functioning ones!  Other had them removed at some stage of their life.  are they real women?  Or is it socialization that makes a real woman?  Some MtF transgender kids were socialized like girls, are they real women once grown up?

What is this fictive real woman figure?  Am I a real woman (made into a man, but never developed any secondary male sex characteristics, and now being a woman, which fits my body way better), I have an ovary, if that counts for good measure!  And during the first 6 years of my life i was raised identically to my sister, which means, part of my socialization was female.  What am I in your eyes?

This fictive real woman stuff is really bothering me (and probably many trans women), because I feel like a real woman (like many older real women, I wish I would be younger), my female friends treat me like a real woman, and my hormone levels are that of a real woman.
What is it that makes real women real and trans women unreal?

I tend to agree that I am not a real woman if we define real woman as being born XX genotype, female reproductive organs and everything. However, what I meant by my stance is that whether or not I am a real woman is a scientific and sociological debate I'm not really willing to participate in, because, by all means, I live as a woman and nothing more. Granted, there may always be someone who knows but why live with that weight forever? If I keep defining myself as that, I will forever be a prisioner of my past. And I don't want to be. Especially a past as painful as being a different child. I side with Julia on this, I want to live a life as close to normal as possible.

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 24, 2019, 01:32:49 PM
I tend to agree that I am not a real woman if we define real woman as being born XX genotype, female reproductive organs and everything. However, what I meant by my stance is that whether or not I am a real woman is a scientific and sociological debate I'm not really willing to participate in, because, by all means, I live as a woman and nothing more. Granted, there may always be someone who knows but why live with that weight forever? If I keep defining myself as that, I will forever be a prisioner of my past and I don't want to be. Especially a past as painful as being a different child. I side with Julia on this, I want to live a life as close to normal as much as possible.

If you take me, I have the XX chromosomes (with that stupid Y to mess everything up), and some kind of androgen insensitive to leave an ovary inside of me. Plus who knows what other mutations.
So, with that in mind, and the fact that my body has never been a male body, and that I feel very much like a woman, and live very much like a woman, am I a real woman?  I very much think so!
I am with you girls, transitioning was the path to get to the point I am at now.  I arrived, and I left transitioning behind.  I am not a trans woman, but a real woman!  A "real" woman of my age has nothing different to me, and that is the reason why I am as real of a woman as my cis girlfriends are!

To me gender identity has nothing to do with your physical body. Its about who you feel you are. As for the concept of a 'real woman' thats a really broad definition! Really feminine or tom boy? What if someone had a mastectomy? What about hysterectomy? Tall/short? There are a range of different body types!

Some CIS women walk down the street and you'd peg them as trans at least from looking at them. Before transition I was often 'misgendered'' as female. Gender identity is a spectrum and it has nothing do with your physical form. Technically with XY genes I'm 'male' I have never have been and never will be. I knew this from a young age.

Transition is just that a state of change. It doesn't define you...

Im just glad that we all get to a point that we can feel comfortable in the skin we are in and enjoy life. I hope everyone has had a good transition and are able to get the additional support they need from this site :)

Ladies,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.  Your posts have been interesting.

I was wondering for those of you who are full-time, have any of you decided to stay pre-op, non GCS, forever?  (Other than for financial or health reasons.  You just will not get the surgery.)
And if yes, why? 

If one does not have sex, maybe the "leftover" penis is not an issue as it should shrink with continued supervised mtf HRT.  The testicles might shrink more over time, and removing them can eliminate bulk and help with estrogen assimilation.

Have a great day!   :)

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 28, 2019, 09:09:56 AM
Ladies,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.  Your posts have been interesting.

I was wondering for those of you who are full-time, have any of you decided to stay pre-op, non GCS, forever?  (Other than for financial or health reasons.  You just will not get the surgery.)
And if yes, why? 

If one does not have sex, maybe the "leftover" penis is not an issue as it should shrink with continued supervised mtf HRT.  The testicles might shrink more over time, and removing them can eliminate bulk and help with estrogen assimilation.

Have a great day!   :)

Chrissy

I stopped at orchi as a bridge burned and no way back. As for the ""leftover"I like it. I use it, and its staying. :) I like having parts of both genders.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 28, 2019, 09:09:56 AM
Ladies,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.  Your posts have been interesting.

I was wondering for those of you who are full-time, have any of you decided to stay pre-op, non GCS, forever?  (Other than for financial or health reasons.  You just will not get the surgery.)
And if yes, why? 

If one does not have sex, maybe the "leftover" penis is not an issue as it should shrink with continued supervised mtf HRT.  The testicles might shrink more over time, and removing them can eliminate bulk and help with estrogen assimilation.

Have a great day!   :)

Chrissy

Originally I actually did not want a GCS.  My pieces were shrunk a lot already, and the penis was not even usable anymore to stand at a urinal. I did not have any real genitals based dysphoria either.  I had my orchi and thought that this would be as far as I want to go.  My hormone levels are now identical to those of women postop, and very similar to those of cis women.  I thought I thought, because once all the packing was removed, and I could see that lonely piece of skin hanging down there, I got an unbelievable surge of genital dysphoria.  This is the strongest dysphoria I ever experienced in my entire life!  After I started to research for surgeons, etc. the dysphoria went down a little, because my brain was registering actions to remove the cause of it. 
I think I cannot live very well anymore until I had this final surgery!
This for sure was unexpected, and not part of my masterplan, because I can wear already any kind of female clothing without a telltale bulge.

Humans are real funny constructs, one cannot do any long term planing if the brain does not want to be part of the game!

Last week at Esprit, we had a fashion show in which I participated. By then I had located my red wig and Nikki had worked her magic. It was so exciting. After a lifetime of secrecy in my room, I got to prance in public and it was divine. I am so thankful for the opportunity to be me 24/7 for more than a week. I now have a new group to hang with. Yes, I believe I have always been transgender. Even though it did not have a name at the time. Being able to finally acknowledge the fact, is the single most important day of  my life. Since then, it has been my goal to be the best me possible. Quirks and all. I love who I have become. I love the idea of loving other people as I have rejected them for so long. Am I a woman? No. Logic tells me that is not possible. I do have an abundance of estrogen and my thinking process has changed to kinder, gentler, more concerned. So yes I have always and will always be transgender. I was born that way and nothing I could do could deny the fact I was different from day one.

Quote from: DawnOday on May 28, 2019, 10:13:39 AM
. Am I a woman? No. Logic tells me that is not possible. I do have an abundance of estrogen and my thinking process has changed to kinder, gentler, more concerned. So yes I have always and will always be transgender. I was born that way and nothing I could do could deny the fact I was different from day one.

By thinking like this, do you not restrict yourself to be all you could be?  What is a woman?  In my opinion it is a person who lives like a female and acts like a female, and wants to be a female.  What are your criteria to be a woman?

It can't be the reproductive ability of some females, because there are enough of them who cannot do this, either because of medical intervention or because of their biology.  What makes you different from those women?  The socializing you had?  There are many former trans people who were socialized from early childhood on to be females, are the women, or still transgender?

I just don't understand the argumentation that a person who had trans as a path (in this case to femininity) to arrive at the target gender, and even undergoing quite big surgeries to do so, will not call herself a woman, without any footnotes to the word woman?  The only real difference is your chromosomes, you might be XY, which seems to be male, but wait, there are women who have XY chromosomes, too.  Are they real women?  They never transitioned form one gender to another, they always were female but still have XY chromosomes!
Why are you transgender, and others are not?  Am I transgender?  I have XX Chromosomes (with a little hidden Y in some corners of my genetic makeup, but I am more of a mosaic type person), but yet, I had to transition to become the woman I am now?
Can you please help me out to understand that transgender thing?

Quote from: krobinson103 on May 28, 2019, 09:25:20 AM
I stopped at orchi as a bridge burned and no way back. As for the ""leftover"I like it. I use it, and its staying. :) I like having parts of both genders.

That is interesting.  So you are sexually fluid but a woman at heart and gender?

I am not sure what I will eventually do surgery wise.  I do think though that the male stuff seems that it will have little use except to go to the bathroom if you are woman, but you have your male stuff in use to please your girlfriend I take it, and maybe also yourself.  If this works for you, that is good for you.  Enjoy!

i just wonder what women would be interested in me physically if I am in all ways a woman but still have a penis.  A bi-woman?   I think I will talk about this with my gender therapist.

I will probably end up abstaining unless I have GCS.  I think it to be extremely unlikely that most woman would prefer this situation, unless perhaps she is mtf herself.  And that may be rare.  I just do not know.  This boggles my mind and this is all a bit hard for me to think a lot about now but I must before going full-time.

Thank you for responding.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 28, 2019, 02:21:18 PM
That is interesting.  So you are sexually fluid but a woman at heart and gender?

I am not sure what I will eventually do surgery wise.  I do think though that the male stuff seems that it will have little use except to go to the bathroom if you are woman, but you have your male stuff in use to please your girlfriend I take it, and maybe also yourself.  If this works for you, that is good for you.  Enjoy!

i just wonder what women would be interested in me physically if I am in all ways a woman but still have a penis.  A bi-woman?   I think I will talk about this with my gender therapist.

I will probably end up abstaining unless I have GCS.  I think it to be extremely unlikely that most woman would prefer this situation, unless perhaps she is mtf herself.  And that may be rare.  I just do not know.  This boggles my mind and this is all a bit hard for me to think a lot about now but I must before going full-time.

Thank you for responding.

Chrissy

I'm a woman with a penis. I've always been a woman. If I was born cis I'd have been totally lined up. I'm bisexual leaning towards lesbian (yes I identify female) who cares not what gender my partner is rather they have the right soul and energy. My partner his this. She is bisexual and likes having both aspects in one person. For the first time in my life I enjoy using it and no longer view it as alien and not welcome. It shrinks down small, packs flat, and apart from wanting to remove the scrotal skin (its annoying to police up!) I'm 100% with my body as it is.

I came to the conclusion about 2 years into transition there was some stuff I didn't care too much about. Laser hair removal has killed MOST of my facial hair and the rest is mostly white and therefore not visible. Since I can't see it, it doesn't matter. I don't need to shave for 2-3 days at a time and that's ok!

I faced the last fear I had a few weeks ago. The women's changing room. Its no fear at all. Either use a stall or wrap a towel around your middle. Besides my little shenis no one can tell me apart from a tall cis woman. Sexually I respond like any woman apart from the obvious difference and HRT (estrogen and progesterone) keep me feeling and looking healthy.

I had a miserable time recovering from orchie and looking the cost/benefits for SRS for me they don't stack up. Pay 30,000 dollars out of pocket (no insurance options in New Zealand) and be off work for 10 weeks (I'm a teacher and there is no light duty). What do I gain? Cosmetic enhancement at best that requires extra maintenance.

No... I like me just the way I am and so does my partner who is a very very good match for me. If that makes me 'trans' then so be it. Its a label not a definition of who you are.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 28, 2019, 09:09:56 AM
Ladies,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.  Your posts have been interesting.

I was wondering for those of you who are full-time, have any of you decided to stay pre-op, non GCS, forever?  (Other than for financial or health reasons.  You just will not get the surgery.)
And if yes, why? 

If one does not have sex, maybe the "leftover" penis is not an issue as it should shrink with continued supervised mtf HRT.  The testicles might shrink more over time, and removing them can eliminate bulk and help with estrogen assimilation.

Have a great day!   :)

Chrissy

At least anecdotally and this was definitely my experience, the <shenis> shrinks not from HRT but lack of use (i.e. mine didn't shrink, I continued using it right up to the night before my surgery (like approximately 6 hours before I arrived to the surgery center). My testicles had shrunk significantly (I kinda didn't think about this / notice it until I'd been on HRT for about a year). The confirming evidence that it's more about if you use it (erections) is that what I've heard trans women who did find they had shrinkage said was if they went off HRT (like for the weeks before GCS), that  they experienced painful erection. My belief is that the mechanism is when it's not used, the skin shrinks while the rest of the structures remain relatively unchanged (particularly the erectile-bodies).

I could have passed on GCS, my GF would be happier and I'd have continued to get along 'OK' sexually, however I'm **infinitely** happier with a vagina. Like SO much happier.

That's me, YMMV. and again either way, with or without the <shenis> (beard, baldness etc) I'm pretty done, trans is part of my path and not one I can exactly hide, however my identity is 'woman'.

Quote from: Aurorasky on May 24, 2019, 01:32:49 PM
I tend to agree that I am not a real woman if we define real woman as being born XX genotype, female reproductive organs and everything. However, what I meant by my stance is that whether or not I am a real woman is a scientific and sociological debate I'm not really willing to participate in, because, by all means, I live as a woman and nothing more. Granted, there may always be someone who knows but why live with that weight forever? If I keep defining myself as that, I will forever be a prisioner of my past. And I don't want to be. Especially a past as painful as being a different child. I side with Julia on this, I want to live a life as close to normal as possible.

I'm with Aurora on this. Also, I like your previous post as well, Aurora. There are really only two places where I use "trans" to describe myself. One is here and with friends that I have met here. The other is with doctors and with them I describe myself as a "post-op transsexual." And to be honest, I kind of dread even that. I really don't enjoy telling people about my past. As much as possible, I just prefer to be accepted as a woman.

So, in answer to the question, I would say that on some level, even decades after transition I am still trans but as the years go by it becomes less significant in my daily life. As a trans woman I have a shared experience with many of the women here and that won't change. However, I won't go out of my way to identify myself as a trans woman in public or attend groups or pride events. If I look for a meetup to attend it will be for women my age or around shared interests, not meetups for trans women.

Quote from: jill610 on November 30, 2018, 07:28:59 AM
I am going to buck the trend here and be unpopular.

Medically, genetically, we will always be "transgender".

However, we need the healthcare directed towards our end state gender. Our health issues align with the cis gender. As a trans woman, my risk of breast cancer increased, my risk of aneurysm decreased and my risk of prostate cancer decreased. For example.

Trans, by definition means to change.

So if I identify as a female, live as a female, socialize as a female, and in every way, am a female. Why would I still consider myself "trans". I just happen to have been born with a different body. I do not identify as a trans-woman. I identify as a woman. The further along in transition I get, the less I identify personally with the term trans.

When a caterpillar emerges from her cocoon, she is a butterfly. She is not a caterpillar with wings. She transitioned from one state to another, and the transitory phase completed. She is a butterfly.

Just my 2c.

I dont think I could put it any better myself

Quote from: noleen111 on May 09, 2019, 09:31:38 AM
I do see myself as trans anymore as I feel I have completed my transition.

I completed it when I had my Srs.

I am now just a woman

I dress like a lady, I am accepted as a woman by people, I have a female body shape, breasts, a vagina between my legs.

I think like a woman and I am even a wife to a man. I play the female role in the relationship with my husband.

I can't imagine being any other way.. I am a woman .. that's it

I do find it disappointing when transition is defined as surgery. Transition mtf in my view is the process of moving from living as a man to living full time as we truly are. Transgender is just a fact but it doesn't define me. I identify as a woman and that is my reality.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So for a mtf woman, when is transitioning "over"?  Are we always transgender?


Chrissy

There is no conflict between being transgender and being a woman, both at the very same time.

Reflecting on the shared experiences of womanhood, we recognize that no two journeys are alike. Cisgender and transgender women both navigate through life's myriad paths, each shaped by individual circumstances, yet all are undeniably rooted in the essence of being a woman. The diversity of our experiences does not undermine our identity; rather, it reinforces the breadth of what womanhood encompasses.

As transgender women, we do not embark on our transitions to claim womanhood; we do so to manifest the truth of our identities. Our transition is not about becoming; it is about revealing and affirming our inherent selves. The verity of our womanhood is intrinsic and parallels the experiences of cisgender women, even as we each resist the unique challenges posed by societal norms.

In this light, we understand that our transitions are not a sequence of changes culminating in womanhood but a continuum of our existence as women. The womanhood of transgender individuals is not a status to be achieved, but a reality to be acknowledged. Our diverse experiences, whether parallel or distinct from those of cisgender women, are threads of the same fabric, each essential to the integrity and richness of the tapestry of womanhood.

Indeed, it is in the fight against the rigid structures of society that aim to define and constrain us where we discover the true solidarity of our experiences as women. Our collective resistance to these oppressive norms is not only a declaration of our individual identities, but also a demonstration of the collective power we hold as a unified body of women. We challenge the binary, we enrich the understanding of gender, and we reject any narrative that seeks to diminish the multiplicity of our truths.

Our narratives, though diverse, are united in the fight for equity and recognition. This struggle against patriarchy and misogyny is a binding force, a shared chapter in the story of all women. It is here, in the collective pursuit of dignity and equality, that our womanhood finds its most profound expression.

The societal constraints of patriarchy and cultural misogyny present challenges that both cisgender and transgender women face. These systemic barriers, although manifested differently in each of our lives, create a common ground of struggle and resilience. It's not merely the individual encounters with these forces, but it is our collective defiance that strengthens our kinship.

As we move forward, it is crucial to honor the individuality of each journey while recognizing the shared struggle against the forces that seek to oppress us. Our varied hues and stories do not weaken our claim to womanhood; they enhance and embolden it. In solidarity with our cisgender counterparts, we confront the challenges of patriarchy and misogyny, not as outliers but as equals—women whose lived realities demand the same respect and validation.

Through this lens of shared experience and struggle, we see that being a woman is not a singular narrative but a chorus of voices, each declaring our truth. It is in this chorus where the power of our collective identity as women truly lies. We affirm that our transitions, our stories, and our identities are not about conforming to an external standard but about living authentically as ourselves.

The essence of our identity as women is not determined by the uniformity of our experiences but by the shared acknowledgment of our intrinsic self-knowledge. As women, cisgender or transgender, we navigate a common landscape marked by the challenges of patriarchy and misogyny. Yet, it is the richness of our varied experiences which strengthens the very definition of womanhood, fostering a deeper, more inclusive understanding of what it means to be a woman in today's world.

This recognition is the foundation upon which we build our collective strength, standing together as women, united not by the sameness of our experiences, but by the unyielding affirmation of our identities. In the face of adversity, we remain steadfast, each woman's truth contributing to the collective narrative that defines us all.