Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Would you go in your old gender presentation?

Started by GinaDouglas, June 12, 2011, 05:49:25 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

In the circumstances described, would you

Accede to your partner's request
1 (3.1%)
Uncategorically refuse
12 (37.5%)
Look for a compromise
9 (28.1%)
Break up because she doesn't get it
7 (21.9%)
Other
3 (9.4%)

Total Members Voted: 31

GinaDouglas

I am coming up on our one year anniversary of living with my girlfriend.  I am almost through my third year since going full-time. I have thinning hair, so I need a wig.  I will walk the dog or run errands without doing my hair/make-up, and if people take me for a male, that's their problem.  I refer to this as gender-neutral presentation.  My GF's mom and sister have seen me in gender neutral as well as my regular look.  Her daughter and 8 year-old granddaughter have only seen me once, and it was gender neutral.  We had to take the granddaughter for a day, and I very reluctantly agreed to let the kid take me for a male.  My GFs other sister and sons have only seen me in normal presentation.

They are all very straight.  My GF never had any experience with women before me.  I've posted before about our relationship.  We more or less agree that I am not a man or a woman, I'm neither and both, but more a woman than a man by a longshot.  I am certain that I am truly myself when I am fully female, that's when I operate freely with no mental checks and guards operating to keep from shocking or annoying people.  She thinks that I am really myself when I am acting more gender-nuetral - which I really only do for her comfort.  I don't use my most female voice when it's just us, I tone done the gestures and expressive speech.  She thinks that is the real me.  I tell her otherwise, but she doesn't listen.  Maybe this whole thing is my fault for indulging her as much as I have already.

I'm non-op, we have regular intercourse.  In my mind, I am using a strap on to please her, same as many lesbians do - or we are both moving on a double dildo.  She doesn't really believe that either.

So, I think, to her pov, her request is alot more reasonable that it is.

In the year we have been together, she has seen each of her three children once, and her dad once.  They don't talk much, she misses them.  That was pretty much her situation when we met.  They were already somewhat estranged already.  Her relationship with me hasn't helped, but I don't think it's made much difference.  On the other hand, I am sure there are times, particularly when she is drunk; when she holds me completely responsible for her lack of connection with her family.

My GFs father is retired military.  He had three girls with my GFs mom, then divorced her and had more kids with a woman he is still with.  Alot of them are military.  Last July, he had a BBQ, that my GF went to alone.  Then her dad came back over to her mom's house to meet me.  After which, he supposedly said I was not welcome in his home.

This year, he is starting to feel his mortality and wants everybody gathered to his house for BBQ on 7/4.  Theretically, my GFs 3 kids are all going - but I have the betting line an over/under of 1, and am betting the under, expecting zero to actually show.

My GF wants me to attend in gender-neutral.  I have told her it's out of the question, and explained many reasons why.  I have told her, "It's not even reasonable of you to make such a request."

As it gets closer, she continues to bring it up.  It's only a few hours.  She never asks anything of me, why can't I do this for her.  Why does it matter to me what her family thinks.  I just want to go as a girl to be the center of attention....

My position is that all of her family should say they're not going if I don't go.  I'm perfectly ok with letting her go without me.  I'm not thrilled that she supports me at that low level, but I can live with it.

Today when she was drunk, she gave me an ultimatum.  Do what she wants or else.  She's drunk, she won't remember in the morning - so I am not going to get on my high-horse about the ultimatum.

I am not going to go to that party in gender-neutral.  That's flat.  But I am curious what other people think they would do.

As always, I appreciate the way y'all help me think about things from other angles, even when I don't actually change my mind or behavior.  I am just saying, don't try and tell me what I should do, because that ship has sailed.  But, if for the sake of discussion, you would like to take the time to tell me what you think you would do in a similar situation - I would like to know that.

It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
  •  

Ann Onymous

It isn't something I could do but, as Rabbit notes, you seem to have a history of fluidity.  So it is a very different matter as compared to an SO asking someone who has transitioned to present as the wrong sex... 

Beyond that, I shall simply bite my figurative tongue...
  •  

Taka

i'd go as myself or stay home. i don't really see what a compromise would be, half gender neutral? doesn't make much sense

still i wouldn't uncategorically refuse to go along with my partner's wishes. i'd rather try again to make them understand why it's so important for me to present myself from my best side to my partner's family, and how much it hurts me to not be understood in this matter. one day the family would have to se my real self anyway, so.. why give them any false hopes that you might be what they consider "normal" in the first place?

not that i've actually been in that kind of situation myself
  •  

GinaDouglas

About the gender-neutral dog-walking and errands, those are solitary things. I am not interacting with people, and certainly not socializing. I'd  rather not have to do it, but necessity calls.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
  •  

Ann Onymous

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 12, 2011, 07:12:46 PM
About the gender-neutral dog-walking and errands, those are solitary things. I am not interacting with people, and certainly not socializing. I'd  rather not have to do it, but necessity calls.

But even at that, you still concede being willing to present in a manner OTHER than a full-time presence even within the household.  As long as she knows that you are willing to do something other than a full-time commitment to transition, then in HER mind, it is NOT an unreasonable request. 

This is NOT a relationship that has long-term stability written on it...
  •  

Janet_Girl

Why would I wish to go anywhere in boy drag.  Hell I don't even have any boy clothes.
  •  

GinaDouglas

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 12, 2011, 08:10:55 PM
But even at that, you still concede being willing to present in a manner OTHER than a full-time presence even within the household. 

I don't quite understand this.  It seems to me that some people see a higher standard of femaleness be applied to transwomen than cisgender women.  If I was an attractive cisgender woman, my partner would frequently see me looking less than my best.  Beauty is an illusion that women sometimes strive for, and other times do not bother.  That's what I see myself as doing if I am not wearing a wig and makeup at home.

I am NEVER not a woman, no matter what I may look like.  That is my definition of 24/7.

If I could afford electrolysis and hair extensions, that would be a different story.  I do the best I can within the financial restraints that an intolerant society's economy imposes upon me.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
  •  

Robyn

About 6 months after I went full time, my 3 year-old granddaughter died a week after discovery of an aggressive brain tumor. I flew cross country and spent time with my daughter and her family. I knew that was not the time for them to meet Robyn for the first time. It was a terrible time for them. Being en homme around them made it doubly hard for me. I vowed it was the last time I would ever be seen as other than female.

Although I'll always be dad and grampy to my daughters/granddaughters, they know and accept me as a woman.

Robyn
11+ years postop
When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen. There will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly. — Patrick Overton
  •  

Cindy

Difficult situation.

I do present as 'male' at work. I do present as 'male' at the nursing home my wife is in. That is just about the only places I do.

This might sound sad, but if your gf, even if she was drunk, wants you gender neutral at this time, she has some deep seated concerns. What is her feeling about you going FT in life generally? Or (please this is not meant to be rude) she will put up with a '->-bleeped-<-' as a BF, but really wants a male BF?
You come over as being a normal woman, and at some time you are going to have to deal with it. Sorry

Hugs
Cindy
  •  

Taka

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 12, 2011, 10:34:49 PM
I don't quite understand this.  It seems to me that some people see a higher standard of femaleness be applied to transwomen than cisgender women.  If I was an attractive cisgender woman, my partner would frequently see me looking less than my best.  Beauty is an illusion that women sometimes strive for, and other times do not bother.  That's what I see myself as doing if I am not wearing a wig and makeup at home.
quite true, that. no matter if i were to be a man or a woman, i'd probably get crazy if i had to dress up in every wake moment of my life. home is a place where you should simply be able to be yourself without having to concern yourself with how other people may perceive you based on your looks. so sad that a balding cis woman without her wig and prettiest dress is still accepted as a woman while a trans woman is often not. there shouldn't have to be a difference, really
  •  

Sephirah

In the situation you describe, I think that were I in that situation, I would likely point out that my presence there wearing anything other than what made me feel comfortable, confident within myself, and able to express myself in the way which most reflected who I am would make it far more awkward and uncomfortable for both myself and others. It would backfire badly.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
  •  

rachel_eliason

I would find this an inappropriate request, but that's just me. My thought would be this, "if your family sees me in gender neutral mode they are going to think that's me, and then later we are going to have to go through the whole coming out thing with them. If they see me as a woman from the start, it'll be easier."

  •  

Ann Onymous

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 12, 2011, 10:34:49 PM
I don't quite understand this.  It seems to me that some people see a higher standard of femaleness be applied to transwomen than cisgender women. 

It has nothing to do with whether you have done your hair or makeup...it has everything to do with the fact that you acknowledged changing voice and mannerisms when you were around her in the house. 

QuoteIf I was an attractive cisgender woman, my partner would frequently see me looking less than my best.  Beauty is an illusion that women sometimes strive for, and other times do not bother.  That's what I see myself as doing if I am not wearing a wig and makeup at home.

I cannot relate to the wig component, but I also am not one that EVER wears a lot of makeup (if any at all) and that includes going to the office or making a court appearance.  But voice and mannerisms are not something that get flipped off or on like a light switch...they just *ARE*

You have given your SO the impression that you are willing to turn your presentation on and off as opposed to you holding your ground and simply telling her that you ARE who you are.  If the relationship itself is to remain intact, you need to have some fundamental ground rules, not the least of which is that you don't change presentation in public just to help her overcome whatever uneasiness might exist between her and her family...
  •  

JulieC.

I would give in and go gender neutral.  I am the "pleaser" type that usually likes to make everyone happy.  If it's important to her and you do present yourself that way at times then I think it is something you can do for her.  I'm also a little manipulative so I would probable use this opportunity  to get something in return.  Say being able to spend all of my home time being myself.  To me, neither request is unreasonable.  Let's face it all relationships are a series of compromises.



"Happiness is not something ready made.  It comes from your own actions" - Dalai Lama
"It always seem impossible until it's done." - Nelson Mandela
  •  

GinaDouglas

Quote from: CindyJames on June 13, 2011, 03:00:10 AM
What is her feeling about you going FT in life generally? Or (please this is not meant to be rude) she will put up with a '->-bleeped-<-' as a BF, but really wants a male BF?

I have written about this in other threads, so if you have a deep curiousity about this, you might look at those.  When we were first seeing each other, she insisted that she "did not want to be in a relationship."  I came to understand this as meaning that she did not want to be in yet another bad relationship with a man.  She's a complex and intelligent person, who unfortunately lacks the education to do a good job of understanding herself.  She doesn't understand that the conscious mind is essentially an observer on the rim of a volcano, and that the true thought process is the unseen churning of magma in the volcano.  See Also: Incognito : the brains behind the mind, by David Eagleman.

She came from such a strict upbringing that she never even saw her sisters in their underwear.  The human body is evil, sex is dirty type of thing.  She is not comfortable naked in any context.  She has a submerged fear of people looking at her, that comes to the surface in some situations, and when she has been drinking.  She spent a lifetime repressing the little part of her that is bisexual.  Since she thinks her own pussy is foul, she can't imagine eating somebody else's.  Yet her favorite aspects of my body are female aspects, with the one obvious exception.  She loves the feel of my skin on her skin and under her hands, and she gets really aroused when I rub my boobs over her body.  She also likes the level of control she gets over me by manipulating my breasts.  Our foreplay/intercourse ratio is about 4/1, foreplay being time I have my panties on and she stays away from them.

When I am looking hot, it turns her on and she wants me, and feels ashamed of it too.  At first we were very affectionate in public, until we were thrown out of and banned from our favorite local bar over the issues of kissing and slow-dancing.  Now she is afraid to be seen as a couple in public, which becomes a dance because she can't resist me either.  I play, "Do you want to kiss me?" for example.

She says she can't imagine living with me if I wasn't a woman.  She loves going to church as an affectionate couple.  She says that the only problems she has with me living as a woman are those that stem from society's reaction to me.  On the other hand, she has spent her life going-along to get-along, not making waves, avoiding attention,... so there is a part of her that wishes I would present as male in public and live as a woman in private, even as she has a conscious understanding that that would be impossible.  She says, "Do you know how much I love you, and how much I sometimes wish I didn't; because you make my life so hard."

To quote one of my favorite songs: Life is hard. You can't get to heaven on roller skates, and you can't catch a taxicab to Timbuktu. Life is hard.

In summary, if she wanted a boyfriend, she had her choice of them for the last ten years when she didn't want to be in a relationship.  She had plenty of suitors, and still does.  Some of them have reupped their efforts, because they think she is going through a crazy phase.  She has had two marriage proposals, over the telephone (duh, guys are so dense), since we have been together - from former lovers, who thought she would come around if they expressed their true(?) feelings.  Personally, I think these two guys, one of whom I know, just felt really, really inadequate in losing to a ->-bleeped-<-, and thought they could redeem their pride by winning her back.

I don't know if I answered your question, Cindy.  But it has been beneficial to me, to refine my thoughts on this, by discussing it with you and others.  Thanks to everyone who participated.

I need to say that before I rip into the arguments made by the next person to whom I am going to reply.  I fear that the writing is gonna sound a bit hostile, though it is those particular arguments that I hate, not the writer.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
  •  

GinaDouglas

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 06:10:29 AM
It has nothing to do with whether you have done your hair or makeup...it has everything to do with the fact that you acknowledged changing voice and mannerisms when you were around her in the house. 

Double-standard.  Every beautiful woman, every perky woman, every popular woman, pretty much every woman on earth - has different mannerisms in public and at home.  We have a public personna and a private personna.  When speaking in public, we speak with more emphasis, animation and gestures, generally trying for a musical, lilting voice.  At home we speak much flatter and generally with a deeper voice.  Part of the reason that transwomen have more trouble passing on the telephone than in person, is that most woman have a telephone voice that is higher pitched than their usual speaking voice.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 06:10:29 AM
I cannot relate to the wig component, but I also am not one that EVER wears a lot of makeup (if any at all) and that includes going to the office or making a court appearance.  But voice and mannerisms are not something that get flipped off or on like a light switch...they just *ARE* 

Double-standard!  In my last job, I worked closely with the receptionist, a normal cisgender straight woman.  I'd be setting there talking to one personna, and the phone would ring, and a totally different speaking voice would answer the phone.  Even though she was not looking at the person she was talking to, her facial expressions were as if she was looking them in the face, and her hand and arm gestures (with her free hand) were much more animated than when she was talking privately with me.  Her phone mannerism is exactly how she presents in a group of women in a social situation.  It is an entire affected package of social behaviors, that she can literally flip on/off in the blink of an eye.  I use a completely different set of voice/expression/mannerisms when I address the entire church, when I address individual church members, and when I am at some kind of team meeting about the church.  As for the makeup, lucky you.  I have pale skin and have not had electrolysis.  I think it would shock people out of sensibility if I presented as a woman with visible beard shadow. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 06:10:29 AM
You have given your SO the impression that you are willing to turn your presentation on and off as opposed to you holding your ground and simply telling her that you ARE who you are.  If the relationship itself is to remain intact, you need to have some fundamental ground rules, not the least of which is that you don't change presentation in public just to help her overcome whatever uneasiness might exist between her and her family...

Double-standard.  I present in public as a highly feminine woman, and in private more like a chapstick lesbian.  But I am never out of the realm of female behavioral norms.  Even when I am in gender-neutral appearance, I still am a woman in my head and use my female voice.  There is no gender-flipping, which is essentially what she is asking for.

We have fundamental, agreed upon ground rules.  One of which is: I only go out socially as a woman looking my best.  She wants an exception to that rule for this one instance, she claims.  But I fear it's a slippery slope.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
  •  

Ann Onymous

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what you perceive to be double standards.  Either that or I have been blessed by whatever deity with ONLY having been around women who don't turn voice and mannerisms on and off like a switch (or have been INCREDIBLY sheltered across the past 20 years or so post-transition)...did we have uber-bitch mode that could be turned off or on, sure, but the women I have known were very much the same in the morning when we woke up as they were having drinks the night before (and every instance in between) when it came to voice and mannerisms.     

But the fact that you want to label observations as a double standard says there is little else to be had here in the way of discussion...you wanted opinions but don't seem to like what was given as the observational input. 
  •  

GinaDouglas

Quote from: JulieC. on June 13, 2011, 11:27:15 AM
I would give in and go gender neutral.  I am the "pleaser" type that usually likes to make everyone happy.  If it's important to her and you do present yourself that way at times then I think it is something you can do for her.  I'm also a little manipulative so I would probable use this opportunity  to get something in return.  Say being able to spend all of my home time being myself.  To me, neither request is unreasonable.  Let's face it all relationships are a series of compromises.

You make a good point.  I'm always saying, "Everything is a negotiation".  The one relationship book I really believe in is titled, Negotiating Love.  But that book tells us that, in a good relationship, we have to accept that some things about our partner are non-negotiable, and respect those limits.  We also have to acknowledge that our own non-negotiables are temporary, and be open to entertaining negotiations in the future, if the non-negotiable issue changes.

As someone who spent 40 years trying to find my true identity, I think that expressing my true identity is as close to a permanent non-negotiable issue as you could find.

You are right, I could negotiate for any damn thing I wanted in return for this.  But it would be wrong.

I'm reluctant to turn this on you, except for your own benefit.  I was married twice, for over a decade each time.  Like you, I negotiated for "self-time".  I learned the hard way that there is a difference between entitlements and negotiables, and you can't get yourself into a situation where you are negotiating for your entitlements.

My second marriage, I figured, as a freak, I was lucky to be in it at all.  I did anything to maintain the relationship.  That led to me being abused.  Just a word of caution.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
  •  

GinaDouglas

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 13, 2011, 12:26:52 PM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on what you perceive to be double standards.  Either that or I have been blessed by whatever deity with ONLY having been around women who don't turn voice and mannerisms on and off like a switch (or have been INCREDIBLY sheltered across the past 20 years or so post-transition)...did we have uber-bitch mode that could be turned off or on, sure, but the women I have known were very much the same in the morning when we woke up as they were having drinks the night before (and every instance in between) when it came to voice and mannerisms.     

But the fact that you want to label observations as a double standard says there is little else to be had here in the way of discussion...you wanted opinions but don't seem to like what was given as the observational input.

Or perhaps you are not observant enough to note the differences.  Or perhaps, unknown to you, there is something about you which prompts women to act different when you are around.

My point is that you are starting from wrong assumptions, and whatever logical chain you build from those wrong assumptions is invalid.  Subsitite cisgender woman for transwoman in your Rules of Presentation, and common sense should tell you that they are not valid, unless there is a double standard.
It's easier to change your sex and gender in Iran, than it is in the United States.  Way easier.

Please read my novel, Dragonfly and the Pack of Three, available on Amazon - and encourage your local library to buy it too! We need realistic portrayals of trans people in literature, for all our sakes
  •  

Nero

Quote from: GinaDouglas on June 13, 2011, 12:19:59 PM
Double-standard.  Every beautiful woman, every perky woman, every popular woman, pretty much every woman on earth - has different mannerisms in public and at home.  We have a public personna and a private personna.  When speaking in public, we speak with more emphasis, animation and gestures, generally trying for a musical, lilting voice.  At home we speak much flatter and generally with a deeper voice.  Part of the reason that transwomen have more trouble passing on the telephone than in person, is that most woman have a telephone voice that is higher pitched than their usual speaking voice.

Double-standard!  In my last job, I worked closely with the receptionist, a normal cisgender straight woman.  I'd be setting there talking to one personna, and the phone would ring, and a totally different speaking voice would answer the phone.  Even though she was not looking at the person she was talking to, her facial expressions were as if she was looking them in the face, and her hand and arm gestures (with her free hand) were much more animated than when she was talking privately with me.  Her phone mannerism is exactly how she presents in a group of women in a social situation.  It is an entire affected package of social behaviors, that she can literally flip on/off in the blink of an eye.  I use a completely different set of voice/expression/mannerisms when I address the entire church, when I address individual church members, and when I am at some kind of team meeting about the church.  As for the makeup, lucky you.  I have pale skin and have not had electrolysis.  I think it would shock people out of sensibility if I presented as a woman with visible beard shadow. 

Double-standard.  I present in public as a highly feminine woman, and in private more like a chapstick lesbian.  But I am never out of the realm of female behavioral norms.  Even when I am in gender-neutral appearance, I still am a woman in my head and use my female voice.  There is no gender-flipping, which is essentially what she is asking for.

We have fundamental, agreed upon ground rules.  One of which is: I only go out socially as a woman looking my best.  She wants an exception to that rule for this one instance, she claims.  But I fear it's a slippery slope.

Even if this is true about most women, and for the sake of argument, say it is. It sounds like you're referencing the normal formal and informal presentations everyone has. Those different modes these women flip on and off are still both female. They're switching from one female presentation to another. It's different from switching from a male or gender-neutral mode to a female mode (I'm not saying you're doing that. I don't know you. But that's the impression we're getting from the OP and it seems like that's the impression your partner has).
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
  •