Transgender VS Transsexual: Round 3

[Raya]

My advice is this: laws are not going to dramatically change or be struck down because one label is used over the other, a label is just a label and it does NOT dictate your destiny unless you want it too, and stop arguing about which label is better....Palestine and Israel has a better chance of mutual and unadulterated peace before the debate of "transgender" and "transsexual" is settled.

I've always wondered how this type of thing breaks down age-wise. Not by how they identify, but by how much they care about how they and other people identify. Way too much of trans history (at least in the US) is marked by different factions of trans* people loudly exclaiming that they and only they are deserving of dignity and respect. It might take another generation or so before we put those times completely behind us.

[Dawn D.]

I get the same 403 error.

[Annah]

Words are important and hold meaning for all of us. To simply call it bickering implies that those who disagree with the majority opinion dont have a right to speak up or their differing opinions are somehow keeping everyone back because there is no clear ONE voice. It sounds like it is annoying to some to have people disagree with the majority and they should just stop it.

Respectfully, calling it bickering is kind of disrespectful/belittling. I think a better term is discussion. We are all having a discussion which I think is healthy.

Respectfully, I think you do not understand what I was trying to convey

I presented both sides of the issue. I was not trying to direct any attacks on anyone, and yes, I do stand behind my word "bickering" because that's what it is.

When two sides of the fence fights endlessly, I call that bickering.

I am not trying to downplay the action of debating as I find debating to be very healthy, but my post was not about debating. It was concerning those who attack others based on their identification of a label. There is a difference between attacking and debating. I am not even saying this thread is attacking anyone. I merely brought up examples of how trans people transcend debating and then go all out dirty glove fighting over something so silly as a label.

So yes. I am calling people who fight with others because they do not agree with another person's label as bickering. I am sorry if that offends you personally as I had no intention on making my post towards you. It was an neutral post aimed at anyone who goes to the 9nth degree and beyond the civility of debate to attack people.

[Annah]

I am sounding so argumentative, im sorry.
So are you saying once us older trans people die out the world is going to be a better place?

Valerie, i really think you read too much into things. You get the worse ideas out of some of these comments! I am sure she was not saying the world would be a better place when older trans people die.

What Raya is saying is that once a controversy is put onto the table, it is a natural course of human evolution for people to become more socially acceptable of that specific contraversy which was considered out of societal norms. This is a true statement.

For example, when women were being considered to be able to vote it stirred an outrage. Through the progression of evolved generations where they were born and raised in the environment of women voting, it became a society norm of outrage to a society norm of acceptance.

The same can be said with the continual evolution of African Americans and their civil rights. 80 years ago in the South it was an outrage, now through the progression of time, it has been getting better and it is a society norm that African Americans in the South has every right as a white person.

The same is true for Gays and Lesbians

The same will be true for trans people

She was not indicating that once you die, things will get better.

[Annah]

Bickering is different than debating. This is why I stated you did not read my original post closely. I already explained myself to you twice. I feel no need doing it a third time.

Blessings

Annah

[VeryGnawty]

Bickering is different than debating.

If opposing sides cannot agree on what they are talking about, a debate cannot take place.

I fail to see how defining terms is bickering.

[Sarah Louise]

I am getting a little tired of the Round and Round we seem to get on this topic.

[cynthialee]

I am getting a little tired of the Round and Round we seem to get on this topic.

Yes but if you reread the thread closely you will see that positions softened and some points were conceded.
Granted the tone is turning again but it has been sorta like a wave curve in the rhetoric.

[Annah]

If opposing sides cannot agree on what they are talking about, a debate cannot take place.

I fail to see how defining terms is bickering.

Actually, you can debate on issues where the opposing sides cannot agree before during or after. I would be safe to say that the vast majority of debates never end with both sides agreeing but that is the sense of a debate; to place different viewpoints on the table and explain why you believe in your convictions of argument and why the opposing party believes in their conviction. usually it does not end with two parties agreeing and debating really isn't meant for two sides to agree to certain terms of the opposing arguments: that is called diplomacy.

In my opinion, defining terms is not bickering at all. It is when one descends from the civility of sportsman(women) debating to a hostile viewpoint is when it becomes bickering.

For example, one can debate with respect why they like the word transsexual and why they don't agree with transgender (or the other way around). It becomes bickering when someone says "I'm a transgender (or transsexual) because I am a real trans and not a fake girl living out a fetish so those who label themselves as transgender (or transsexual) are destroying the true image of trans people."  I use this example because it is very prevalent in blogs that bicker about what labels are right and what are not(as opposed to debating labels).

[Muffins]

Next people will be debating the word Blue, "no blue is for things that are green! ..idiot". *facepalm*. A rose is a rose is a rose.

[Muffins]

they didn't invent the dictionary for nothing.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,

I just leave this kind of thing for "trans-people" to argue about...It's nothing to do with me 

Metta Zenda

[AbraCadabra]

Wowa, what a lot of the most erudite inputs I dare say!
If sometimes being a bit "blond"? let me say this though:

"Transsexual" has the word *sex* in it and it makes folks get knocked a jolly bit harder when using it.
The word "Transgender" --- has the word *gender* and it's pretty mellow compared to *sex*, right?

So if you want to drive home a point about "us" with no uncertainty of impact, use transsexual (I mostly do if not always),
If a bit more "shy" and you like our listener be spared the full impact? Use Transgender --- and I also like teddy bears, cuddly things, and am actually such a nice girl (but watch out for my "bitch" also). Giggle.

Don't overlook a known fact that there is *POWER* in words. Aye!
Some 2000 years back St. John started is epistle with: "In the beginning there was the WORD and the word was..." etc. etc.
The man actually knew what he was talking about, um.
Greetings,
Axelle

[Muffins]

if people are too shy or whatever to use the correct word because it has the word 'sex' in it then they have serious mental issues and should perhaps look no further.

[Annah]

if people are too shy or whatever to use the correct word because it has the word 'sex' in it then they have serious mental issues and should perhaps look no further.

that's just a tad bit overreactive and unnecessary. This is exactly what I meant with my earlier post. Those who disagree with a specific type of label or who has a difference in opinion is attacked. In this case, the person is classified as having a serious mental issue.

Hard for us to demand respect from other people outside the trans perspectives when we cannot even have respect for each other.

[Muffins]

that's just a tad bit overreactive and unnecessary.

lols not really, I mean it's a word that has a meaning and there is nothing wrong with it, if they can't use it for whatever lame reason they cling on to then they only have their self to blame. If they're going to swear black and blue about using an inappropriate word because they're not grown up enough to handle using the word 'sex' in public then what is a sane person going to do? Bow down to their child-like ways?

If you mean transsexual then say transsexual if you mean transgender say transgender if you mean female then say female. Seems pretty strange forward to moi! ^___^

[Padma]

When we reach for a dictionary definition, we have to be willing to accept that a dictionary is a polaroid snapshot of a word's meaning, in a particular context. Current usage is sometimes ahead (and at least subtly different) from dictionary definition. And it depends where you are in the world of people who speak the language your dictionary is for.

Just to cite an example, the US medical profession (and therefore Americans in general) tends to use the term "transsexual" where the British medical profession tends to use "transgender" to mean pretty much the same thing. I've already seen (and even, I'm embarrassed to say, once participated in) arguments online about usage of these terms which boiled down to a Brit and an American both digging in their heels and saying "no, it means this!!" Word usage is much more contextual than we're led to believe.

The point I'm making is that a word means whatever a significant enough group of people thinks it means, and therefore often ends up with multiple or shifting meanings. And the history of language is the history of people arguing over the meanings of words (there have been wars in the Islamic world over the meaning of one word in the q'ran).

So I think in the trans debate, the focus of attention should not be on "does this word mean that?" but on the much more significant issue of why groups of people want to use language to exclude each other.

[AbraCadabra]

Thanks girls, it is what the word *sex* MEANS to *OTHERS*!
I personally can talk just about anything but what's the use if your audience is getting very uneasy? Not gonna help you one bit for sure.
So one has to be aware if you want those *others* come along you and have to consider their feelings and notions also. BIG TIME.
Nobody is an island, and as for that SA goes, it has most of it's words usages from Brittan.
Also the British are somewhat uneasy to talk about SEX, and so are South Africans (white or black).
Maybe this did not come across to clear in my post?
Luv,
Axelle

[Keaira]

I prefer the label: ME, PERSON, HUMAN.

But I like to tell some people: I'm not a can of beans so dont label me.

[Padma]

It hadn't occurred to me before, but here in Britain, the meaning of the word "transsexual" is coloured for a lot of people by its use in the cult film The Rocky Horror Picture Show. Through that film, it's associated in people's minds here more with bisexuality/cross-dressing than anything specifically "gender". That's one reason why I'm reluctant to use that word to describe myself here.
Weird how these things can lurk under the surface.