Thoughts Upon the Transsexual/Transgender Debate

[Princess of Hearts]

 Hi Valerie   in your statement above 'Altering your biological sex...'  You have unconsciously implied that before pills and surgeries existed there were no transsexuals.   This is as I am sure you appreciate can't be true transsexualism isn't a 20th/21st century phenomenon.    History is replete with people whose attitude demeanour and general behaviour appear identical to transsexuality.     In Great Britain mtf's were commonly mistaken for gay men.  If you look up 'Mollies' and 'Mollie-houses' you can see that these people were not homosexual in the general public's understanding of that term.    Mollies lived, dressed and acted like women. ]

I don't hate my penis, but I don't love it either.   I have never used it for anything else but urination.   I have never fantasised about penetrating a woman,.    My penis is small and stubby like a Cherub's.  I have a surprisingly flat front even when wearing close fitting panties.  Because I  have such a small unobtrusive penis I never came to hate it, perhaps I would have felt different if it had being bigger.   Everyone's experience varies from the norm.   Jung or was it Freud once noted that you could gather up many hundreds of pebbles from a beach and find out that the average weight of the pebbles was half-an-ounce.   However he added it was highly likely that not one of those pebbles actually weighed exactly half-an-ounce.   My point?   There is always variation around the Mean.

[Princess of Hearts]

Zoe raises an interesting point.   What if a person simply isn't in a financial position to afford all these techniques, treatments and procedures?   How many surgeries do you need to have undergone to be classified as a transsexual?     Does the possession of a vagina trump everything else?   Say I had a vagina but very little breast development, would that make me a woman, transsexual or transgender?   Don't forget natal females from 12 onwards have breasts, breasts are just as integral to women as a vagina is.  Perhaps more so as they are much more visible to the general everyday public than vaginas are.   Imagine if I had a vagina, breasts, but was too tall for a woman or I had a particularly male face would I be a woman, transsexual or transgender person?   Say I had breasts, and passed as female from a physical perspective (i.e. I looked and acted female) but crucially I had no vagina would that make me a woman, a transsexual or a transgender?   Or, to labour the point, imagine I was all of the above and I had undergone an orchietectomy(sp?) but still had a penis, would that make me a ...   Or, what if I had undergone everything but clumped about like a man, or had masculine mannerisms from years of living in the male role would I be a woman, transsexual or transgender?

[Ann Onymous]

Say I had a vagina but very little breast development, would that make me a woman, transsexual or transgender?   Don't forget natal females from 12 onwards have breasts, breasts are just as integral to women as a vagina is.  Perhaps more so as they are much more visible to the general everyday public than vaginas are.   

And there are also plenty of natal women who have very little in the way of natural breast growth...which was one of the reasons we saw implants come into fashion a few decades back. 

But to answer the question posed therein...IMO, two of the three apply, specifically woman and transsexual (well, actually FORMER transsexual since once the individual is post-operative, there ceases to be an identifiable medical condition presently recognized as transsexuality).

[Tammy Hope]

Surgery is needed to create a vagina. No amount of beauty is going to wish a penis away. That is where transsexualism comes in, the need for SRS or vaginoplasty for MtF's or removal of breasts for FtM's. There is no pride in it, it is an intense distate for someone's birth genitals or breasts. When it is corrected, there is relief.

Altering your biological sex is at the core of transsexualism, which is why sex is in the word. A person is trans-ing their biological sex. If you are not doing this or do not have a deep need to do this when abile, you are not a transsexual.

As far as appearance, many folks have vaginoplasty or breast removal surgery (in the case of FtM's), and transition with no facial surgeries ...and have no problem fitting into society. I didnt have any FFS, no rhinoplasty, nothing. Just a vagina and some lovely breasts. I also transitioned late in life (began at 48), so you younger folks arent the only ones who can pass well. Maybe that puts me in the androgynous camp, I dont know. I wasnt aware of androgyny prior to transitioning. I was just a pretty, feminine male. I identified as a transsexual during my transition. I was in the process of altering my biological sex. I am now female with a transsexual history.

I see no need for me to use the word transgender. I did not alter my gender (that doesnt make sense), but my physical sex characteristics.

all this makes obvious sense to me and describes me apart from the personal details (being on the front end of the process rather than the latter end)

the thing that just stuns me reading back over this thread is that almost every new post brings a new "definition" in the eyes of the person posting. What seems to me to be a patently obvious distinction apparently can't be seen at all by many of my peers, which I find disquieting.

[Tammy Hope]

Hi Valerie   in your statement above 'Altering your biological sex...'  You have unconsciously implied that before pills and surgeries existed there were no transsexuals.   This is as I am sure you appreciate can't be true transsexualism isn't a 20th/21st century phenomenon.   

not to disrespect the balance of your point, but surely that would be covered by the caveat "they would if they could", no?

[Annah]

But at the end of the day, I do believe that Transgender applies to a few concepts, like "proudly passing without medical intervention" or "acting like the gender and not medically being the sex".

And then I believe that Transsexual often applies to concepts like "truly needing medical intervention to pass" or "proudly doing every medical step needed to make me feel like the sex I want to be."

The controversy is behind the psychology of appearance. GID peoples who are born Androgynous-looking in terms of biological body and facial traits usually have less severe levels of stress because they are already able to socially pass or identify physically (facially and sometimes body wise) with something other than strictly their biological sex, while people who are very strictly born looking like their biological sex (extremely masculine, extremely female) often have much harder times coping with that type of canvas. The result is that naturally Androgynous people with GID tend to have a much lower drive to medically transition (and many of them proudly refuse medical transitioning), while the patients with extreme bodies and faces tend to want the medical transition full force and are very proud to medically leave the days of "looking a Caveman" behind them.

But of coarse, that's by no means a guideline or even a full definition, it's just a pattern that has been pointed out by many professionals.

that is so incorrect on so many levels. Transgender does not mean you pass better while transsexuals mean you have to go through a lot of surgeries to get to the point of a transgender.

It is also grossly inaccurate to say trans people who "passes better" do not suffer from GID as much as one who does not passes easily. So many girls have committed suicide because of their GID and many of the passed so well they can go to stealth.

[Princess of Hearts]

not to disrespect the balance of your point, but surely that would be covered by the caveat "they would if they could", no?

That is just an assumption that unfortunately cannot be proved one way or the other.

[SkylerKts]

I really like the original post. Good stuff. I go back and forth between the terms. I feel like if I like something, it is not against the law, I am going to do it. If someone else likes whatever they like they are going to do whatever it is. So being a T is no different. I like going by both because I feel like saying transsexual is a little deeper sometimes and other times I say transgendered for several reasons but mainly because I haven't gone through a sex change and I feel like I identify with that one a little more now and then plus it is just easier to say more often than not. Like with my mom, will never say the word transsexual as quickly as she is fine with repeating over and over and over transgendered.

O yea, and most importantly and most of all; I go by woman, 100% female, I mean when it gets right down to it- the reason the way that I am is not so I can be something "in-the-middle" or different. Truth is I just want to fit in and live my life like any other girl lives.