Dont want to offened any ladies but Why are very slutty mTF called prideful?

[Julie Marie]

No matter how they are labeled, all general labeling comes from society and society is conditioned by older generations who were conditioned by generations older than them.  That's why it takes so long for large group of people to change.  Even the baby boomers, who revolted, demonstrated against and stood in general opposition to their parents generation (first generation to win the war against their parents), fell back into the mold once they reached their 30s & 40s.

So however we see people, we will always be influenced by our upbringing, and it's very difficult to escape that completely.

[JessicaH]

In my limited experiece in going to trans friendly places, I can usually pick out the M2F TS pretty quick because they are usually dressed much more conservatively than the cross dressers and drag queens. But if it's an appropriate place to get a little freaky and that's what you want to do, have some fun with it and live a little. Just realize that if you have a beer gut and just look like a man in a dress, "most" people are not going to find that sexy at all, no matter how sexy YOU feel.

My opinions are based on what I feel is appropriate for me and I don't really care what others do or if they make a fool of themselves. We don't live in a vacuum and all actions come with a reaction. If you don't want to get laughed at , don't dress like a clown.  By the same token, many of you may thik I dress like a prude or totally lack a sense of fasion!  lol

I love you all, even if I think you dress funny...   

[Annah]

Don't you think these women get judged enough for how they look and what they wear without you ladies piling on? Don't you think all women have to deal with quite enough judgment without hearing it from their sisters?

Kyril, it's not like they are forced to dress that way. If you wear a micro mini skirt where people can see your junk if you bend over the slightest or sit down, people are going to comment....transsexual or cisgendered.

Everyone has a choice and everyone knows the social ramifications that may result in dressing like that. No one put a gun to their head and made them dress like that.  In my opinion, it is poor fashion sense. Not a forced condition.

Navigating the double-standard-ridden minefield of female sexuality and attractiveness, through all the mixed messages and the millions of ways to be "wrong," isn't easy. "Just sexy enough but not too sexy" is a small target, and the way to hit it varies with a woman's age, physical appearance, and social milieu. And a lot of trans people have a lot of trouble seeing ourselves accurately the way others see us; just look at your own "Do I Pass" thread for confirmation. It's no wonder that some trans women struggle to balance everything, especially in a culture that hypersexualizes, degrades, and dehumanizes you. As it does all women, but you more so.

Of course it is mixed messages. People want to dress sexy but for many of us there is a way to tastefully dress sexy. One can dress sexy without dressing slutty.

This isn't just a transsexual issue but it is also with cis gendered girls as well.

It also goes with transmen and cisgendered men too. Not too many people like the look of their pants halfway down their thighs with their boxers showing. It isn't attractive nor is it sexy.

I'm amazed by the lack of compassion. I'm amazed that you think how these women present themselves reflects on you, when what it really reflects is social attitudes toward trans women. It is not your fault, and it is not their fault, that trans women are hypersexualized and degraded. Oppression is never the victim's fault. Even if some victims play along with their oppressors to survive and get their needs met.

One can show compassion by telling another girl they don't look so good in that or it makes them look slutty. The uncompassionate thing to do is to let them dress like that with the end results of people pointing and staring.

[Annah]

Great point Annah. I'm always asking my roommate how do I look. Not because I just want to hear that I'm pretty, but whether I've made some major clothing or grooming mistake. I do want to hear I look great, but I want it to be true. And if I look slutty, I hope she has the nerve to tell me before I walk out the door.

Honesty hurts, but it can be done compassionately.

Exactly.

My ex boyfriend lives next door to me on campus at school and while we broke up we are still very good friends.  I always go to him to ask how I look...like do I look fine, am I crossing a type of line, am I looking trashy. He's very honest and he has always given me wonderful advice.

I would question a friend who kept on saying "you look fine" when you know they are just saying it....its kinda like asking your boyfriend how your hair looks and while he is watching a football game, he says "its fine." lol

I value friendship and their honesty that goes with it.  They certainly can provide you with a more realistic perspective on things.

[Rebekah with a K-A-H]

Excuse me Your annoying first of all because you simply havent read every post god in everyone i have stated i am asking a question god you annoy me you just scream at me when all i am doing is telling the poll results i know your sad and lonely but dont take it out me take it out on yourself god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you really cared you would of read through 111 messages of fights and the odd one me asking people not to fight or be mean and i can beat in any topic you have ever started you havent moderated how the people are using it have you? well i have and so i am simply giving feed back on how people answered my question you annoying pest ! I hate men who try to act all justified when they dont even know whats going on seriously next time you want to verbally attack me at least have just cause.

Sorry, but I'm with Kyril here for the most part.  He brought up a slew of excellent counterpoints, some of which I agree with, others of which I don't.  But to respond with an irrelevant screed like that is disrespectful and doesn't add anything to the conversation.  The fact of the matter is, women are judged and scrutinized for their choice in clothing, whether cis or trans, and judgment from within our community on top of whatever external objectification and sexualisation is really unconscionable.  I do think that certain fashion choices are unwise and perhaps inappropriate, but the correct response isn't judgment but education.  There are ways of aiding someone to make better choices in that regard; calling them slutty isn't one of them.
However, I will make the point that for such a small community like transsexuals, and trans women specifically, negative press and stereotypes are easily applied to the group at large when most people have almost no contact with us. The solution, though, isn't to alienate and judge and criticize them. Trans women are indeed hypersexualized and objectified beyond the normal for women in general, and in that sense, the mere thread title and introductory post are intrinsically offensive.
Thanks for saying what I've wanted to say and have been hesitant to, Kyril. I always find your input astute and thought-provoking.

[V M]

I have a friend who visits me fairly regularly, he's kinda like having a younger brother... I'll ask his opinions regarding various outfits and dresses and such... He is rather honest and doesn't try to flatter me and his reasoning and advise as to what's workin' for me or not is usually rather sensible... Not always what I want to hear... But sensible

He did tell me that my selections and ability to coordinate outfits has greatly improved over the past couple of years 

Excuse me Your annoying first of all because you simply havent read every post god in everyone i have stated i am asking a question god you annoy me you just scream at me when all i am doing is telling the poll results i know your sad and lonely but dont take it out me take it out on yourself god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you really cared you would of read through 111 messages of fights and the odd one me asking people not to fight or be mean and i can beat in any topic you have ever started you havent moderated how the people are using it have you? well i have and so i am simply giving feed back on how people answered my question you annoying pest ! I hate men who try to act all justified when they dont even know whats going on seriously next time you want to verbally attack me at least have just cause.

No offence, but I think maybe you're a bit confused and overreacting to Kyril's comments there kiddo 

[LilKittyCatZoey]

I have a friend who visits me fairly regularly, he's kinda like having a younger brother... I'll ask his opinions regarding various outfits and dresses and such... He is rather honest and doesn't try to flatter me and his reasoning and advise as to what's workin' for me or not is usually rather sensible... Not always what I want to hear... But sensible

He did tell me that my selections and ability to coordinate outfits has greatly improved over the past couple of years 
No offence, but I think maybe you're a bit confused and overreacting to Kyril's comments there kiddo 

HMM maybe ok fine no problem then i am sorry for over reacting Kyril i might of miss understood your comment and took it as an insult again sorry hopefully wont happen again

[tekla]

Well the one point at which the internet mirrors real life is that everyone has an opinion, and you (no matter who you are) are going to find most of them wrong.

[barbie]

Stereotype of m2f transsexual or transgender here (S. Korea) is far different. The first and the most influential m2f transgender has been Ha Ri Su. You can google her. Most people here first heard about and learned the term transgender from her. A problem is that people here expect that "transgender women have to be prettier than WBW" or whatever. The image is far from slut.

I tend to understand slutty fashions of m2f transgender. WBW could express their inner desire at their teens or 20s, but many transgender people just start and learn about women's fashion at their later 30s or early 40s. They do not have enough time to catch up. They should hurry up, and the expression tends to be very strong. I also tend to wear slutty fashion items compared with WBW here. I enjoy the attention from both women and men, but I prefer women's gaze.

In my case, I can fully wear women's dress once to twice in a month. Mostly I wear very dully women's clothes with binded hair.

Barbie~~

[LilKittyCatZoey]

Stereotype of m2f transsexual or transgender here (S. Korea) is far different. The first and the most influential m2f transgender has been Ha Ri Su. You can google her. Most people here first heard about and learned the term transgender from her. A problem is that people here expect that "transgender women have to be prettier than WBW" or whatever. The image is far from slut.

I tend to understand slutty fashions of m2f transgender. WBW could express their inner desire at their teens or 20s, but many transgender people just start and learn about women's fashion at their later 30s or early 40s. They do not have enough time to catch up. They should hurry up, and the expression tends to be very strong. I also tend to wear slutty fashion items compared with WBW here. I enjoy the attention from both women and men, but I prefer women's gaze.

In my case, I can fully wear women's dress once to twice in a month. Mostly I wear very dully women's clothes with binded hair.

Barbie~~

I admit she beautiful, talented and a icon but why is she the most influential? I mean she might be due to the fact she is a pop singer but so is Kim so why is the most influential? Just curious on this one would you mind to pm or post about her i mean i have researched her but i  truly dont see what makes her anymore special than one of us other than being famous thanks ( sorry i know this sounds rude but its not meant to be just so you know)

[barbie]

I admit she beautiful, talented and a icon but why is she the most influential? I mean she might be due to the fact she is a pop singer but so is Kim so why is the most influential? Just curious on this one would you mind to pm or post about her i mean i have researched her but i  truly dont see what makes her anymore special than one of us other than being famous thanks ( sorry i know this sounds rude but its not meant to be just so you know)

In the early 1990s, even gay was a kind of taboo here, and most people had not heard about transgender or transsexualism. Ha Ri Su became "Hot Issue" because Advertisement companies hired her to promote sales of cosmetics. She became an icon for gender minority. There is an archived article from the washington post: http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=97043

Barbie~~

[Julie Marie]

Well the one point at which the internet mirrors real life is that everyone has an opinion, and you (no matter who you are) are going to find most of them wrong.

Wait, are you saying the Internet is NOT real life?

[cynthialee]

OK I watched this thred go on for awhile and have said nothing but I can't hold my tounge....

First the thred title starts off don't want to offend. If you have to preface a statement that you do not wish to be offensive....you are admiting that the topic is offensive. As such it never should have been posted.

Second....Slut. That is a shameing word. A control word that is loaded with value judgements. By what right do any of us label the activities or actions of anouther 'sluty'? Slut is a word that says, 'my values and morals trump yours'.
Female sexuality and sexual power are not valued in this society. Women who like sex and enjoy it are labeled sluts. Women who wear clothing that reveals too much of that dreadful female flesh are sluts. Slut is an asault on female sexuality and therefore females.

As long as no one is being harmed there should be no discussion of anouther persons attire or mode of socializing, and we sure as hell should not be firing off words like slut.

[Nero]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I'd like to point out also that it is very hard to just jump into the world of the adult woman when one didn't have the chance to experiment and learn as a young girl. Many young teens experiment with their look as they learn to navigate the 'the double-standard-ridden minefield of female sexuality and attractiveness'*. Cisgirls get many years to learn through trial and error not afforded to trans women. Some trans women seem to go through the same too short skirts and too much makeup phase a lot of 14 year old girls go through. They just didn't get to do it earlier.


*Thanks, Kyril.

[AbraCadabra]

... Cisgirls get many years to learn through trial and error not afforded to trans women. Some trans women seem to go through the same too short skirts and too much makeup phase a lot of 14 year old girls go through. They just didn't get to do it earlier.

Kyril, you put it in a NUTSHELL, thank you!

It is exactly as you point out things went with me, not a question.

It is of course practically forgiven at a very young age --- far less so when being older going through the same "symptoms".

Axelle

[hilah.hayley]

Thanks Sarah, and I thought I knew them all.  I've always used the term bio male or bio female. 

Debra, WBM don't see us as women. They are for Women born as women only. Hence the Womyn with a y. It's a feminist movement that basically excludes us from womanhood. It's definitely not just any bio-female.

[hilah.hayley]

Same rule applies for flashing your boobs to strangers.

Unless you're at Mardi Gras!!

[LilKittyCatZoey]

In the early 1990s, even gay was a kind of taboo here, and most people had not heard about transgender or transsexualism. Ha Ri Su became "Hot Issue" because Advertisement companies hired her to promote sales of cosmetics. She became an icon for gender minority. There is an archived article from the washington post: http://www.tennisforum.com/showthread.php?t=97043

Barbie~~

thanks and i like her because my Taiwanese friends say because Of Ha Ri Su that i am a girl    and that does make her pretty amazing.

Edit: i say their race because i love them all to bits and they are proud of who they are plus i dont want them to be associated with my other racist/sexist friends

[JessicaH]

Kyril, you put it in a NUTSHELL, thank you!

It is exactly as you point out things went with me, not a question.

It is of course practically forgiven at a very young age --- far less so when being older going through the same "symptoms".

Axelle

I can't really buy in to that argument. Even if you are only 21 years old, you should have the maturity, intelligence and judgement of a 21 year old. It's pretty easy to look around at women your age and KNOW what is considered appropriate in your society. It's not a matter of right or wrong but there ARE reprecussions to how we present ourselves to the world. If you dress like a street thug, people assume you are a street thug or share their characteristics. If you dress like a hooker, people are going to afford you the respect that you have demanded.

The thread IS about opinions and like it or not we all have one.  If you like to present yourself in a way that most of society finds distasteful , then you SHOULD know know the prevailing and differing opinions.  You have to balance what you "like" to wear and how you want to be viewed. Most of my life I had dress a certain way to be taken serious in what I was doing. Sometimes it meant an expensive suit and  a tie when it was 100 degrees or a all black uniform with long pants and sleeves when I'd have much prefered shorts, fipflops and a t-shirt.

[LilKittyCatZoey]

I can't really buy in to that argument. Even if you are only 21 years old, you should have the maturity, intelligence and judgement of a 21 year old. It's pretty easy to look around at women your age and KNOW what is considered appropriate in your society. It's not a matter of right or wrong but there ARE reprecussions to how we present ourselves to the world. If you dress like a street thug, people assume you are a street thug or share their characteristics. If you dress like a hooker, people are going to afford you the respect that you have demanded.

The thread IS about opinions and like it or not we all have one.  If you like to present yourself in a way that most of society finds distasteful , then you SHOULD know know the prevailing and differing opinions.  You have to balance what you "like" to wear and how you want to be viewed. Most of my life I had dress a certain way to be taken serious in what I was doing. Sometimes it meant an expensive suit and  a tie when it was 100 degrees or a all black uniform with long pants and sleeves when I'd have much prefered shorts, fipflops and a t-shirt.

dont you just love it when another person knows more about your own thread YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!!!