The Dept Crisis.

[Cindy]

No doubt I am not alone in not understanding this topic. But I'm going to be impacted to the edge of my life about it.

Firstly I am an Australian woman and I agree with countries having self determination. My comments about other countries politics etc are comments. I don't vote in your countries and as far as I can tell most of you don't either.

My understanding of the USA dept crisis is that the USA has borrowed more money than it can ever pay back. In order to prevent defaulting on the loans it wishes to increase it's ability to borrow money to cover the pay back on the loans. This seems counter productive, but I may be wrong.

Several European countries have done the same thing. So countries are effectively bankrupt, but cannot afford to be. Who can?

So other countries lend them money at a lower interest rate, demand 'austerity' measures and get the loans paid back.

Dumb Cindy Questions.
Where has the money gone?
Why did a country spend themselves into dept?
Who owns what?

I look after my finances why should I suffer from the decisions of financial turkey's (sorry) experts who seem to be trying to bankrupt me.


Why does the USA have trillions of dept? And a trillion seems to be a large number but I'm reading tens of trillions. That seems to be more than most money lenders would be happy with. And you still have a crap health system and no social benefit for the poor.

Interesting

Cindy 

[justmeinoz]

I have been watching the TV news and press on this too, and wondering how the world's remaining superpower has not had a balanced budget for 30 years? 

I can only put it down to the fact that the US Dollar, and therefore the US economy have been regarded as the backbone of the world's economic system for ages.   For a long time the US going bust was just unthinkable due to it's sheer size and ability to just keep borrowing.

Due to the separation of the US Congress and the President,  it is possible for them to be of opposite Parties and therefore as now, be unable to agree. The only problem is that the debt is not just the elephant in the room, it has filled the room. Now the interest bill is too big to ignore.  The politicians in Congress seem to not realise they  are effectively playing politics with the world's economy.

The US seems to have found itself in a similar situation to the Europeans, but by a different path.  Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain historocally have given themselves big pay rises, pensions and subsidies to industries without any regard to what would be the eventual cost years down the track.

I guess the transgendered  are the only people who actually WANT to be responsible for their own actions?

Karen.

[Hikari]

Well, the US has also set itself up as having it's primary check on the economy being the money supply itself, the problem with this is that the federal reserve doesn't have very much control over how many dollars exist, merely how many new dollars are printed, add to this the fact that banks don't actually need to have the money to cover all their deposits, and you have a financial setup that no one entity has too much control over.

In fact, even asking how big the money supply itself is becomes a basically impossible question with the way things are setup, especially with all that hard currency that doesn't reside in US banks. This means that by and large lots of borrowing is taking place outside of accurate knowledge.

In my view of it, congress doesn't have a really accurate picture of the situation, not that they are financial experts anyway, but they still get to make the choices. Not only that, if the debt crisis gets resolved, it will just happen again later. The US government will never be able to pay it's debts until it can raise the revenue it needs to do so.

The problem is the US is setup very poorly when it comes to being able to make that revenue. The issues are basically that money doesn't keep flowing in our economy, and that our government is inefficient. Basically you need to ensure that consumers are still spending at all times, but people without jobs can't spend money, but there is no real method to ensure jobs, so as unpopular as it would be, I would like to see nationalization of some large companies that are on bankruptcy protection, and using them as a vehicle to provide employment to those who are disabled or unemployed. And of course, these jobs would also provide health insurance.

As far as the government being inefficient, that is a consequence of the design of things. It doesn't have to be inefficient, but the way things are setup "use it or lose it" budgets, extensive overlapping of responsibility between departments, and not nearly enough cooperation between departments. Those things simply need to be changed.

However, those two things, while I think they would greatly increase the revenue, will probably never happen, in our setup of government where there are only two parties and they don't really cooperate, basically the possibility of any real change is basically naive.

[justmeinoz]

Not being familiar with the ins and outs of the US political system, it seems to me that the Prsidential system makes it difficult to get things done, if the two parties each control one side of the system. 

With our modified Westminster system, the Governor General has a ceremonial role only, unless something really drastic happens. (like the Whitlam Govt dismissal in 1972).  The PM is equivalent to the House majority leader, and sets the political agenda. If things start to unravel she can be grilled in Parliament, and the party can dump her if they think she is going to cost them the next election. And she could well be.( Again!)

Either way, we are likely to catch the flu if America sneezes.

Karen.

[Hikari]

And it gets even more uncooperative, as remember we have 2 legistlative groups, the senate and the house, and both can be controlled by different parties, so a democratic house can pass a bill, and the republican senate can either vote it down, or refuse to vote on it (i.e. filibuster, of course the minority party can do that too).

Not only that, but the executive branch, gets to appoint the judicial branch, meaning that the life time term supreme court, inevitably becomes a conservative versus liberal warzone, rather than being a check on the other branches of government.

I do feel a bit sorry for the rest of the world, they are very much effect by US politics which are more focused on battles between politicians rather than cooperative for the good of the country, and as it stands what is good for the country economically (usually) is good for the world.

I just hope they don't get it in their head that another war will get the defense industry to revitalize the economy, that is not only immoral but, it isn't a long term solution.

[justmeinoz]

I get the feeling there isn't any money in the purse to fight a major war at the moment.  Maybe there will have to be a shock like a credit rating downgrade or worse to get people to change. 

When Paul Keating was PM here he gave us "the recession we had to have", to shake the economy into being internationally competitive.  There were neccessary changes, but there was an awful  lot of pain along the way.  We are used to being screwed over by world trade so it was just another thing to come to terms with I guess.
Thanks to the Howard govt's reforms that followed, painful as well, we survived the Asian Meltdown and the GFC better than anyone else.  Whether the present gov't can sort out the mess they have created by blowing the paycheck is another matter though.

Hope they can all come to their senses for all our sakes.

Karen.

[tekla]

1.  It has nothing to do with the debt, that the Republicans ran up in the first place.
2.  It has nothing to do with finances or economics either.  (Not that many of them understand both, or either of those things).
3.  It's political pap for mass consumption.

[gennee]

You made some great observations, Cindy. The financial crisis was caused by the banks. They assumed that the good times were going to keep rolling. How wrong they were! When the hedge fund, mortgage, and securities bubbles burst theinevitable happened.                                                                                                                The warning signs were there but were ignored. The two dominant parties here don't have the answers. There are those economists and others who do but they are not allowed in the cirle we call mainstream. The "official" is all that matters in the UUs and, sadly, they are wrong.                                                                                                                                     The sad thing is you have the same people who caused this mess trying to solve this. Itms not going to work.                                                                                                                          Gennee

[Janet_Girl]

It began when the Treasury Dept. No longer backed the Dollar with gold.  They just began printing money.  And the think that the almighty Dollar is always going to be the Global Currency.  Of which there are two, the Dollar and the Euro.

When the world economic community decides that the Dollar is not valid, the US will follow Greece.

[kate durcal]

The USA debt is about 3 trillion dollars, that is 3 million million. About 1/3 of this debt is own by China.

In the 70's the USA bailed out Mexico out of bankruptcy, and later on Argentina, for the same reasons 30 years later Germany and France are bailing out Ireland, Greece and Portugal. The reason is simple, cannot afford them to default on their debts. This state of affairs in the world is due to the irreversible globalization of the world. The bad news is that when USA catches a cold the rest of the world gets pneumonia. The good news of the globalization is the slow end of major conflicts and the reduction of global poverty.

Why is the USA in debt? Mostly by having to bear the cost of keeping a free world free; and by that I mean your country (Europe, New Zealand, Australia, etc) out the communist and fascists. We fought 2 wars in Iraq, and the current Laban campaign to the benefit of Europe. Jut to keep things in prospective: at the beginning of the Libyan campaign the UK fire 2 Tomahawks the USA over 100, at about 1 million dollars per missile, you do the math and tell me who is bearing the cost of that campaign.

So who where is the debt monies? Well, mostly gone to rebuilt other contires, but the lion share went  to the defense industrial sector. Before you start bedeviling the defense industry, pick one of them and find out in just how many countries does that companies have subsidiaries that benefit form the Pentagon contracts. Since there is bunch Brits in this forum I urge and challenge you to investigate your "BAE"

It is to the interest of the Multinational corporations to maintain this concepts of nation and patriotism, the fact is that slowly the ability of governments to act independetly has been eroded so that almost no country in the world can make decision of their own, We are what we are and destined to be a United Earth, its birth is a painful one and its grow will be marked by missteps and errors.

What we have now in the USA behind this debt is nothing more than a continuation of the "unfinished cultural wars of the 60's." I would not loose any sleep over this issue wether I was Japanese, Australian or Danish.

History shows that the whole world owns some gratitud to the American people.

Kate D

[Princess of Hearts]

Actually America has been bankrupt since 1933, and Great Britain since the 1860s.    The international bankers have been loaning these governments and others money at interest ever since.   The banks create the money out of thin air(they tap figures into your bank account - this money is called abstract money as it has no physical existence - only around 3% of money exists as notes and coins) but they don't create the money to pay off the interest.   What has happened is  that the IB's have for decades been quite happy for governments just to make the interest payments upon the principle.  The higher this principal grew the more they received in interest payments.    What  has caused all this turmoil in the world's economic system is that America's and others interest payments have become so high that there is serious doubt amongst the moneylenders whether governments will be able much longer to pay even the 2% minimum amount.   
Do you remember the 'Credit Crunch' and how we were told that the banks would not make or extend loans and maintain liquidity in the system?    Well those bankers were saying 'we are not lending anyone a penny because we don't believe that we'll get our money back.'     That is why the British and American governments had to step in and partially nationalise the bank.   With the taxpayers owning a substantial chunk of stock the banks were forced to grudgingly start making loans.

[heatherrose]

What is the problem? How has the U.S. found itself in such a mess?

The answer is, the caliber of individuals who "We The People" have elected to hold the economic reins.

http://www.redstate.com/moe_lane/2010/02/26/great-moments-in-representative-democracy/


When we landed the Rover on Mars, this individual asked the Mission Controller,
"Can you steer it over to where Neil Armstrong planted the flag?"

[Joelene9]

  I always tell people the cause of the debt crisis:  "Look in the mirror"!  It was my parents' generation that really built up this country from the Great Depression through WWII.  There was even a financial surplus during the Eisenhower Administration.  My generation went through the Hippie era to 'find ourselves', then turned in those love beads for the material things.  We became "upwardly mobile" and money became our god.  The culture of business changed with it.  All aspects of your business now had to make a profit, no more "acceptable losses".  There was a slogan "We service what we sell".  The service center attached to a retail store actually attracted customers, even though the service center operated at a loss.  I was in one of those service centers for nearly 20 years. 
  Now the products you buy are mainly disposable.  The sales staff are usually not knowledgable about their product line, they just don't last long there.  Our manufacturing is now outside of our borders and the workers are out of the job market and in debt.  The people who are hired now do the work of three in the past.  Then we had the give money to those 'Too Big To Fail' banks and they turn around and give themselves executive bonuses and retention pay, while they add more service charges to our accounts.  The rich get richer; the poor, poorer. 
  The hope is in our kids.  A lot of these folks now are operating business more of what it should be than what we did.  Have faith!
  Joelene

[Pinkfluff]

Why does the USA have trillions of dept?

Because we stayed in Afghanistan for far too long, had to do a whole second Gulf war because they wouldn't get rid of Saddam the first time, bailed out irresponsible banks who still haven't paid it back and probably never will, and keep spending billions every year on corporate welfare. That includes things like huge oil subsidies and monster tax breaks for companies that make billions. General Electric, Boeing, and Wells Fargo, among others, made billions in profits in just the last few years yet still got billions in tax refunds.

Then add in the problems of outsourcing and too much immigration (much of which is illegal) and many Americans are out of work, and thus not paying taxes. Many of those unemployed people then get unemployment, Medicare/Medicaid, food stamps, and other benefits that they wouldn't need if they were given a job.

I believe that much of it is a cultural problem too. We are taught pretty much from birth that you are your job and that to be happy you must surround yourself with all manner of material goods (most of which are made in China...).  People get loans for houses way bigger than they need and then when they lose their job they can't pay it, others run up credit card debt on shopping trips and restaurants...

Put all of those factors together and everything that has and is happening really isn't surprising.

[Cindy]

By the way I'm not being insulting to the USA or her people. I do have the odd friend across the pond.

It seems (to me)  that printing money to cover debt is never going to work unless that result in the production of goods and services that can be sold to cover that debt.

As for the USA going to war to protect the world, well I think a lot of the world has spoken. Why get rid of Saddam, his weapons off MD? His evil nature? His oil reserves?

Why invade Afghanistan? No idea, USA was totally critical for the USSR doing the same thing. The USA even sent Rambo over to help the Taliban, care of Hollywood..

As for the USA using military might to protect the world and using hundreds of cruise missiles to do so. Is this just what the military business (and the military) wants? If you don't use them, then you don't need to replace them, and then the companies that make them don't get even wealthier.

Certainly the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting screwed for it to happen.

But I also worry about the attitude of the American people. There is a very low voter turn out, so how can you force politicians to do the right thing if you don't vote?  IMO voting should be compulsory. You can spoil your vote if you wish but in a democratic country you should have to vote.

Cindy

[Pinkfluff]

But I also worry about the attitude of the American people. There is a very low voter turn out, so how can you force politicians to do the right thing if you don't vote?  IMO voting should be compulsory. You can spoil your vote if you wish but in a democratic country you should have to vote.

Yeah I've always agreed with this, that voting should be required. There are many current problems with the voting system in the USA. You are probably aware of all the election problems Florida has had, with Bush's friends in the Supreme Court helping him steal an election, etc. I've read multiple articles about election officials committing election fraud, all Republicans in the articles I've seen. There are efforts to disenfranchise vulnerable segments of the population, such as reductions in the early voting period, fines against groups who want to help people register to vote, and poor operations of government departments that prevent people from voting.

There is also the problem with corporations interfering in elections. Only recently did this corruption become legal, and now corporations are allowed to use money stolen from the people to influence elections away from the good of the people and toward their own interests. All of these things, and probably other things too, contribute to the low voter turn out. Even if you do vote, your vote may not actually be counted, especially in the South.

Why invade Afghanistan?

Because Bush the 2nd had to have his war just as his father did. Note that Bush did not ever complete what was often seen as the main objective, getting bin Laden. He just kept the war going for years and it wasn't until now, after Obama took office, that this was achieved. I think the real reason for the invasion was because rich Republicans like invasions. It increases defense spending, yet regular Americans don't get defense jobs, only the privileged do. It also gives them an environment in which to promote "patriotism", which really includes such ideas as hate for LGBT people, hate for the poor, disabled and unemployed, and pushing the idea that anything which doesn't support the rich corporations and their paid agents in government is unpatriotic. The point of the Iraq invasion, besides finishing the loose ends from the first Gulf War, was to secure Iraq's oil fields as well as contracts for companies rebuilding infrastructure there. And you know all those jobs aren't going to Americans either... I think that the next time Republicans are in office Iran will be next. They'll probably claim that after Afghanistan and Iraq the terrorists have moved to Iran and well we just have to invade. Saudi Arabia and the UAE are already friends, at least to the oil companies.

[justmeinoz]

Topic drift is sneaking in again I think. 

Has there been any improvement in the regulation of the financial sector in the US since the sub-prime mortgage  and Goldmann Sachs disasters?
I can't see how a bank would lend to people who quite obviously were going to have trouble paying the money back.  (But then again I thought Freddy Mac and Fanny Mae were a joke the first time I heard the names. I mean really!!)

Karen.

[Cindy]

As ever an Aussie to bring back sense

[AbraCadabra]

My 2 cents?

It is actually, or better was, a more and more spoiled (US) consumer that thought he could have it all. A whole cultural thing that build over some decades. The American dream always bigger and better, on and on.

When working in the US, for some 2 years (Portland OR) in early 2000 I could NEVER really understand how most everyone could hold, and have so MANY credit cards!?
PLEASE do not just blame this on the Banks. Yes, they OFFER credit but it does not mean you have to go and use it all! Like how about using your brains and do not go for needing to live up to the "Joneses".

So, I finally learned how that credit was being paid off. By constant re-mortgaging their homes! Over and over! Like every YEAR! Then pay of your CC debt. How responsible is that?

Next, every person and his uncle had to have his "own" house. How can ANY politician say that's a bad idea?! Ever. And sorry to say the Democrats right in front with this GREAT dream bubble of an idea.

So? Find any poor sod, unemployed, non-income-earners --- get a corrupt realtor outfit, claim those non-income-earners can pay the bond repayments. No repayment for the first year in any case, ha, ha.
Then send it through to the banking system, make a nice "bundle" of the "good", the bad and the ugly loans.
Get it rated tops by a corrupted rating industry and voila, you can sell junk-bonds as top rated long term investments to rest of the WORLD!
Yeah, property is SO save and will ALWAYS go up, hey. Go into history and find that is not quite true, not in the shorter and medium term at any rate.

The non-income-earner is told: Don't you worry, you will be able to resell your property in less then a year at a profit, pay off your loan and have some money left in your pocket for your next "investment". And EVERYONE along the line is taking plenty of commissions. That's corrupt consumerism not government, or?

So question? Is it then really government that created this mess by irresponsible consumers and a bunch of con-artists? The jury is still out for me on this one.

Once housing prices stopped rising, simply could not rise any longer, everything had to collapse like any old Ponsi-scheme that can only sustain itself for so long.

OK, lets keep these various wars out of it as they might have even been able to pay for them if that "housing bubble" was not created, starting some ~ 10 years ago.

So much for a misdirected do-good idea, being used by some clever schemers, and unable to be interfered to by politics. It would have been completely NON-PC to do so.
NOBODY seemed in a position to stop that Ponsi-Scheme and the result?
Well, it's what we have right now.

Consumerism to the highest degree gone off the rails, and to boot supported by government. PC, um.

'nough said. I personally got taken to the cleaners in 2002 and yet again (big time) in 2008 -> Pension savings? Down the toilette.

So who's at fault now? Easy to point finger at government only --- is what I say. Consumers by and large in the US acted like children, not sensible grownups. Now the world will have to bail out that lot, apart from the suffering that also happens inside the US.

Now, let's see how I'll get flamed, oh, oh.
Axelle

[justmeinoz]

(You won't get flamed dear, no-one in America knows where SA is anyway!!   We do and we are dreading the World Cup after the Samoa game. )

That basically answered my question I guess.  I never ubderstood how homeowners could not end up foreclosed, if they couldn't afford a house. I take it that there was little or no deposit required either?

Karen.