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Observations and irritations about trans in media

Started by Wolf, July 19, 2011, 12:30:43 AM

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RyGuy

Quote from: Darrin on July 20, 2011, 01:14:06 PM
This.

One thing that DOES bother me about the trans community is there seems to be this unwritten rule that if you don't fully transition, you are not "fully trans". Which, to me, is utterly ridiculous. To me, transitioning is about being comfortable with WHO YOU ARE. Not how "trans" you are. Not everyone experiences dysphoria the same way. So, not everyone needs to go "all the way". Everyone is different and no less valid because of how they choose to identify.


[/end rant]

trust me i'm not arguing that being "really trans" or "all the way trans" is better than being "only kind of trans" because i don't even think such a thing as "partly trans" exists for all intent and purposes. all that i was trying to point out is my opinion: i have a physical disability. i am a boy with a physical problem, not a girl with a mental problem. i am not something "special". i am just like everyone else even if i have to work harder to be treated as such. people with other disabilities differ in opinion on the same issue. for example, some people with hearing loss would like to be treated like any other person, despite their impairment. other hard-of-hearing or deaf people believe themselves to be totally different and "special" for lack of a better word. the deaf community and culture, like the trans community, is rich and vibrant but not everyone whose physical condition would align them with the community needs to or wants to participate in it. both choices are valid, as are all gender identities and sexual orientations. i simply stated my opinion on a topic where i believed that personal opinions were solicited. i apologize if i offended anyone because of what i believe.
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Wolf

@RyGuy from the first post on the second page, just to clear anything up I don't pin any blame on people who go stealth just pointing it out as an unavoidable problem, once we transition, we're just normal people. It just makes it more difficult to get people to accept that fact for people who are out or are pre- transition, but again, unavoidable and completely understandable:
QuoteAgain when I say us, our, community, and such I mean it in a friendly and open way, significant others and allies and anyone who agrees that things have to change and we all deserve fair social treatment. Similarly, again I really don't begrudge anyone who disappears into stealth-dom, in fact, I don't like calling it that. Those who do, they're just being who and what they would have been were it not that they were born different. Just that it adds to the issues we face in trying to fix the current situation, and it's an issue that can't be helped.

As for the L word again, I realise that there are characters like that in real life, I just felt that being a really mainstream and popular show, it would have been better with a more accepting atmosphere. And jeeze I didn't even know he gets pregnant, after being on T for so long. That makes noooooooooo sense, medically.
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Darrin Scott

Quote from: RyGuy on July 20, 2011, 08:29:47 PM
trust me i'm not arguing that being "really trans" or "all the way trans" is better than being "only kind of trans" because i don't even think such a thing as "partly trans" exists for all intent and purposes. all that i was trying to point out is my opinion: i have a physical disability. i am a boy with a physical problem, not a girl with a mental problem. i am not something "special". i am just like everyone else even if i have to work harder to be treated as such. people with other disabilities differ in opinion on the same issue. for example, some people with hearing loss would like to be treated like any other person, despite their impairment. other hard-of-hearing or deaf people believe themselves to be totally different and "special" for lack of a better word. the deaf community and culture, like the trans community, is rich and vibrant but not everyone whose physical condition would align them with the community needs to or wants to participate in it. both choices are valid, as are all gender identities and sexual orientations. i simply stated my opinion on a topic where i believed that personal opinions were solicited. i apologize if i offended anyone because of what i believe.

My comment wasn't directed at you specifically. Just in general. It's something that I've noticed around here. Some people seem to think it's all or nothing and say that those that don't embrace that mentality is wrong. It's just something that bothers me. But I wasn't saying you're wrong for having an opinion or anything.





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Lisbeth

I can't think of anything more relevant than this quote from the afterword to Women on Women edited by Joan Nestle and Naomi Holoch:

"We know, as other oppressed groups know, that silence, invisibility, help no one survive in the long run; we know that we must author our own stories because if we do not, our lives will be reduced to dirty jokes or simplistic summaries of deviant behavior."
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Luc

"If you want to criticize my methods, fine. But you can keep your snide remarks to yourself, and while you're at it, stop criticizing my methods!"

Check out my blog at http://hormonaldivide.blogspot.com
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malinkibear

Why did this turn into a debate about the ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thous?

One thing that irks me is the feeling that documentaries will... exagerrate some things. 'Make Me a Man' (here: ) shows one of the guys, Scott, still binding with ACE bandages despite waiting for top surgery and being on hormones for a year. He seems like a sensible guy, so I doubt he's still binding with that method in reality. I suspect that 'look at how he wraps his chest down with these medical bandages!' is better for the camera than 'he puts on his binder, a top designed for comfort, safety and compression'. At least the series uses male pronouns - so many documentaries will still use 'she' or 'he' the wrong way round! I don't get it.
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Taka

i suspect the reason why documentaries are made to seem a little extreme on way or the other is that
1. "nobody's interested in watching something without shock value" (just notice how many watch michael moore's movies compared to other documentaries)
2. we let other people do the job for us, and those other people aren't interested in revealing the truth. they only want a good story, one that people will watch
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Natkat

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 20, 2011, 09:08:34 PM
I can't think of anything more relevant than this quote from the afterword to Women on Women edited by Joan Nestle and Naomi Holoch:

"We know, as other oppressed groups know, that silence, invisibility, help no one survive in the long run; we know that we must author our own stories because if we do not, our lives will be reduced to dirty jokes or simplistic summaries of deviant behavior."

thats simply my words, I dont feel everyone must be out and proud if they dont feel like, but some people have to be open to make a visuble statement if no one dare to speak we cant be heard.
--
Taka;
that also annoyed me endless after making the interviuv and wathing one of my friend in the tv,
the youngest one every showed in tv in my country and I where so sure it would make a debatting,
but it didnt and I felt sooo disapointed, I had picked up some really serious topics and they where all ignored because people prefern seeing this as a interesting input than something to do anything about..
it disapointed me so much.
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Heath

Wow, this thread has really hit on some very interesting subjects. I meant to put in my perspective a few days ago, but now I can peacefully do so.

On the subject of The L Word: I stopped watching that show after 1 episode into the fourth season....or whichever episode where Kit goes to that fake abortion clinic. Numerous things about the show totally made me tune out. The treatment of Max's character was some of the most careless I've seen in terms of transsexual men in the media. He was shown as going through transition practically overnight, he fell into the "aggressive Hulk smash" stereotype, and from what I've gathered reading this thread and online he ended up getting pregnant?! On one hand I figure "well, it's a show about lipstick lesbians, of course the tone will be hostile towards an FTM, but at the same time, couldn't people have done their homework?". What bothers me more is how people consistently refer to Max's character by the wrong pronouns - I can't help but think a lot of that has to do with how the show treated Max's story. However, I'm sure a lot of lesbians were ticked off about seeing themselves portrayed as sex-crazed wealthy fashionistas....

Chaz Bono: I have mixed feelings about him. I have not seen his documentary or read his book, which is why I'm suspending judgement for the time being, but I did like the fact he was one of the grand marshals at SF Pride this year (I'll get into my experience at Pride in a moment). I read something recently that he wants to marry his long time partner (I don't know if he has yet) because now he is legally male and wants to marry her. I've always held the strong conviction that until gays and lesbians can legally marry in my state (CA) then I have no business taking part in a heteronormative privilege....hence I saw crimson when I read that story on Chaz. Maybe I was seeing the green jealousy monster too, but he can do what he wishes...

I saved the big topic for last...

How we are treated/included/excluded by the Lesbian/Gay community (and sometimes the trans community: in my experience I've gotten frustrated by some group for some reason or another. I have my qualms about them all. For instance, when I went to SF Pride this year (last month) I never once passed as a guy. Not once. Not even for a single moment. Just no. I think people saw me as a butch or something. I don't get it. I had no trouble passing at all in conservative Orange County, but in Humboldt where I currently am, and in SF during pride weekend I didn't pass at all. I wanted to fit in with the gay guys, but it just wasn't happening. Also, I recall very vividly standing around and a guy who was waiting in line with me whippe out his pride information guide and said "Ohh, Chaz Bono is a grand marshal...I'm not sure how I feel about him/her." I quickly corrected him and said that I'm transsexual too and he said "oh really?" with this shocked look on his face (he assumed I was female.)

Consistently I feel as though I'm misunderstood by gay men, ostracized by lesbians, and seen as "lacking" by bisexuals of either sex. But this brings me to my next point...

Where I live there is a bunch of infighting within the small trans community we have. Some transsexuals wish to be liberated from the transgender umbrella and feel that by including transsexuals within that that it only hinders the progress of transsexuals. They're trying very desperately to break free of the "man in drag" stereotype and while I can understand and partially agree with where they're coming from I also disagree with the way things got hostile over time. On the other side of the fence there are trans people (whether transsexual or another identity label) who feel as though inclusion is a good thing and that there is more power in numbers. I take the latter approach but also hope that someday transsexuals will have liberation (myself included) and not be lumped together with all things transgender including cross dressers and gender-benders.

I even caught flack for wanting to identify as a feminine male once I have gone through the majorit of physical changes needed to be male on the outside. This trans person had the gall to question my motive for transitioning and if I was sure of what I was doing. A question that many cisgender people had asked me not knowing anything about transsexuality! Rude! But anyways, I'm one of those transsexuals who feels as though I don't need to conform to gender norms as a male - I spent too many years glued to the "female box" that I don't want to put myself through the same hell as a male. Some trans people are in favor of adhering to the already established strict gender binary - others wish to dismantle it. I notice I'm naturally drawn more to the latter kind of person.

Overall, I wish GLB people were more knowledgeable about trans issues and I wish people in the trans community could reach some kind of agreement/compromise without damaging our interpersonal relationships. I remain hopeful....
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Adio

Quote from: Heath on July 25, 2011, 04:52:07 AMThe treatment of Max's character was some of the most careless I've seen in terms of transsexual men in the media. He was shown as going through transition practically overnight, he fell into the "aggressive Hulk smash" stereotype, and from what I've gathered reading this thread and online he ended up getting pregnant?!

That's what made me particularly upset.  Changes on T do not happen that fast.  I mean, growing facial hair but his voice never drops?  Of course I realize that his actor is female, but even Adam on Degrassi (without hormones) seems to speak in a more male pattern.  It's like the writers and Daniela Sea weren't even trying to be accurate.

QuoteI read something recently that he wants to marry his long time partner (I don't know if he has yet) because now he is legally male and wants to marry her...Maybe I was seeing the green jealousy monster too, but he can do what he wishes...

I wasn't aware of this.  That's interesting to me, as I too wanted to marry my ex-girlfriend.  Now that I've realized I'm actually gay, I've been experiencing jealousy toward other trans (and non-trans) people who are able to get married.  It's complicated...but it's almost as if I envy gay/lesbian trans people who are able to be legally married due to their birth certificates not getting amended/changed.  I'm very glad that all of my documents are changed, but...I don't know.  It's hard to explain that feeling, but yeah, I agree that he can do what he wants whether anyone else likes it or not.

QuoteI think people saw me as a butch or something. I don't get it. I had no trouble passing at all in conservative Orange County, but in Humboldt where I currently am, and in SF during pride weekend I didn't pass at all. I wanted to fit in with the gay guys, but it just wasn't happening.

That's a fear of mine and what holds me back from going to pride events (or even gay clubs).  I'm afraid that I won't pass and be seen as a lesbian (with facial hair??).  I'd like to move out West eventually, but...would I ever "pass"?  I honestly don't know.

QuoteOverall, I wish GLB people were more knowledgeable about trans issues and I wish people in the trans community could reach some kind of agreement/compromise without damaging our interpersonal relationships. I remain hopeful....

Yes, I wish this as well.  My boyfriend was actually upset that he didn't know more about trans issues, and he's doing an independent study course next semester to learn more about the legal issues trans people face.  It's very endearing actually how much he's into it.  But some other gay people I know weren't so accepting.  One guy told me that he was fine with it, was very happy for me, but then decided never to speak to me again.  Another said it would be a deal-breaker were he to find out a potential partner was trans.  He pushed me to be out when I didn't want to be.  Needless to say, our friendship has pretty much ended. 
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JoshuaKael

Most of the media I've seen involving trans people has been positive. But maybe it's because I try to close my mind off to hate as much as I possibly can.
I don't like the portrayal of Max in The L Word, but A LOT of people can identify with him and benefited from his presentation in The L Word. I can't really say much against it when I know of people who found it to be a positive portrayal.
One negative thing that I really, really hated was an episode of the Jersey Shore. I watch this show a lot and I can't say I expected any more of the characters, but one of the men was hitting on a MTF in the club, and his buddies ridiculed him and he himself was disgusted. The girl was called "it" by all of the cast members and she was almost completely disregarded as a human. The way they talked about her was simply DISGUSTING and it made my stomach churn.
Adam Torres on Degrassi is a great character. He's super strong and he is so well written. They don't focus on him enough (in my totally unbiased opinion) but he is such a fantastic character. The young lady who plays him also gave a interview on transgendered transitions and difficulties. I thought it was all incredible. Almost brought a tear to my eye.
Boys Don't Cry was also a great movie. If you haven't seen it, whether you are FTM, MTF, cis, or ANYTHING in between, you simply must. It's a fantastic film and Hillary Swank... Just gives an incredible performance. This movie made me BAWL for almost an hour though... Make sure you have a box of tissues on hand. The only thing that I DO NOT like in conjunction with this movie is the Netflix description. It says something about Brandon Teena being a lesbian that just dressed as a boy, as if it was not his gender identity but a guise.
Also: a fantastic show for anyone concerned with transgendered issues was on the OWN network. No, not Chaz's show. It's Transgender Lives with Lisa Ling. They get all the pronouns right, it showcases both MTFs and FTMs in various stages of transition. It's really great and I definitely enjoyed it. (:
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Natkat

Quote from: Adio on July 25, 2011, 04:35:09 PM
That's what made me particularly upset.  Changes on T do not happen that fast.  I mean, growing facial hair but his voice never drops?  Of course I realize that his actor is female, but even Adam on Degrassi (without hormones) seems to speak in a more male pattern.  It's like the writers and Daniela Sea weren't even trying to be accurate.

I wasn't aware of this.  That's interesting to me, as I too wanted to marry my ex-girlfriend.  Now that I've realized I'm actually gay, I've been experiencing jealousy toward other trans (and non-trans) people who are able to get married.  It's complicated...but it's almost as if I envy gay/lesbian trans people who are able to be legally married due to their birth certificates not getting amended/changed.  I'm very glad that all of my documents are changed, but...I don't know.  It's hard to explain that feeling, but yeah, I agree that he can do what he wants whether anyone else likes it or not.

That's a fear of mine and what holds me back from going to pride events (or even gay clubs).  I'm afraid that I won't pass and be seen as a lesbian (with facial hair??).  I'd like to move out West eventually, but...would I ever "pass"?  I honestly don't know.

Yes, I wish this as well.  My boyfriend was actually upset that he didn't know more about trans issues, and he's doing an independent study course next semester to learn more about the legal issues trans people face.  It's very endearing actually how much he's into it.  But some other gay people I know weren't so accepting.  One guy told me that he was fine with it, was very happy for me, but then decided never to speak to me again.  Another said it would be a deal-breaker were he to find out a potential partner was trans.  He pushed me to be out when I didn't want to be.  Needless to say, our friendship has pretty much ended.

well, also my concern last and the currently upcomming pride,
but many gay guys actually seamed to hit on me that night.
and later on the year I got to my friends favorite gay club and where so nervous I wouldn't pass, but my friends friends ex boyfriend just keep flirting with me, I and I where nervous he would find out.

just to saying not all gay people find it super obvious XD
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asher

Some really interesting stuff coming up in this topic o:
In regards to Max on the L word, it was horrendous I agree. And more frustrating to me, is the fact that the actor who played him, Daniela Sea, is very active in the community, in regards to genderqueer and transgender rights, and is pretty genderfluid herself (though she doesn't identify as any gender she still uses female pronouns, and has lived portions of her life as a man, and others as a woman). I don't know what kind of politics happened behind the scenes, and I know Daniela admitted to disappointment with the story arc regarding Max once the show was done, but to me that just says they had someone obviously somewhat more aware of this community right on set with them, so even though ignorance wasn't an excuse before, it's even moreso not an excuse with that information. Considering Daniela's activity, I would be hard pressed to think she didn't mention something about it. If she didn't then well that sucks of her, if she did and they ignored her then... wow. Wtf. Obviously I don't know what anything was like in that situation, but it still makes me wonder.

As for the whole stealth business, I've thought about that a lot myself. I can respect people's decisions to be stealth, but I remember on a thread posted on here somewhere, some of the epic amounts of hesitance I saw in people about posting anything online. I realize there are dangers doing this, to those who wish to be stealth especially, opening yourself up to such a widespread audience, but to me the internet is the swiftest way to reach tons of people. I have a pretty large following through my artwork, and the company I work for also has an even larger following in an intimate and separate community. Because of this I felt a responsibility to be open on the net about my transition. My boss (who's more like a coworker haha) and I use social networking as a means of advertisement, and feedback, and we both have been generous in sharing information about the nature of things, and I hope it reaches people who didn't understand. I know it reached him, and his peers, which is a great feeling.

It seems like... a pretty chicken thing to do not to use that opportunity the best way I can. Though even so the internet is full of anonymity, which often makes people crazy...

However there seems to be a good number of transgender people being fairly open on the web, because they can still retain anonymity and talk about these things. I see a lot of blogs and vlogs reaching people who didn't previously understand certain things, and that's pretty cool.

Understandably though, most people do NOT have jobs as open as mine, or peers as open as mine, and just can't even take the risk despite internet anonymity possibilities. And you know some people just don't feel it's anyone's business. So the fear and resistance to me is totally understandable, we are all different and we all have our preferences, which is even moreso why there is a sense of responsibility there for me being open, having an audience, and being that kind of person. But there is a lot at risk for some, and others just don't have the mindset for it.

Personally I'm hoping with this new generation, with proper use of anonymity on the web and just the ability to have an audience so easily at your fingertips, that people will start braving the internet more and using this tool to spread awareness.
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Nygeel

I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.
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RyGuy

Quote from: Nygeel on July 25, 2011, 10:51:49 PM
I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.

about this- at what point do "exclusive" groups become discriminatory? at the philly trans health conference which is an enormous and well-respected event, so many of the seminars are for "people of color" only. while i respect other peoples needs for a supportive and comfortable environment, why exclude others who are ready and willing to provide that? i want to speak out against this policy, because i would like to attend these seminars (there is information provided there that you can't get from an alternative source at the conference) without sounding racist. but, if people of ethnic origins have every right to participate in "historically white" things (i know that sounds horrible, but you know what i mean), then why can't i participate in their events?no one in their right mind would ever ever ever ever ever have seminars at that conference or others for "white/non-hispanic caucasian people" only. i support human rights to be where you want to be as long as you are respectful about it and especially disagree with the michfest policy.
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asher

Quote from: Nygeel on July 25, 2011, 10:51:49 PM
I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.

Lame. It seems like it's always something :/ I wasn't even looking at her partner, Daniela's track record seemed so good.
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Nygeel

Quote from: RyanThomas on July 25, 2011, 10:55:31 PM
about this- at what point do "exclusive" groups become discriminatory? at the philly trans health conference which is an enormous and well-respected event, so many of the seminars are for "people of color" only. while i respect other peoples needs for a supportive and comfortable environment, why exclude others who are ready and willing to provide that? i want to speak out against this policy, because i would like to attend these seminars (there is information provided there that you can't get from an alternative source at the conference) without sounding racist. but, if people of ethnic origins have every right to participate in "historically white" things (i know that sounds horrible, but you know what i mean), then why can't i participate in their events?no one in their right mind would ever ever ever ever ever have seminars at that conference or others for "white/non-hispanic caucasian people" only. i support human rights to be where you want to be as long as you are respectful about it and especially disagree with the michfest policy.

MichFest is specifically a "women's festival" but isn't for all women. I understand that with spaces for women, queer people, trans people, or people of color it's spaces for a specific marginalized group. In the US (generally) the ideal is considered being white, upper class, heteronormative and cis.

So, a space for queer people that doesn't allow bisexuals. A space for trans people that only allows "trans people that pass"...you get the idea. Also, by that I mean a space that is declared a queer space, or trans space.
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RyGuy

yeah nygeel i know what you were referring to and it's really a shame that already marginalized groups have to discriminate against their own, but just in general why is that even ok?
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Adio

I don't have much else to comment because my feelings/thoughts are a bit too complicated to express at the moment.  Especially with the whole WBW stuff.

But this...
Quote from: Nygeel on July 25, 2011, 10:51:49 PM
I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.

I actually had to google that because at first I couldn't tell if you were just refusing to say the person's name or if their name was actually "Bitch."  Who does that?  Made me laugh anyway.
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RyGuy

Quote from: Adio on July 25, 2011, 11:19:19 PM
But this...
I actually had to google that because at first I couldn't tell if you were just refusing to say the person's name or if their name was actually "Bitch."  Who does that?  Made me laugh anyway.

I did too. is that even legal?
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