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Pornography

Started by Cindy, July 24, 2011, 03:06:37 AM

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kate durcal

Love and sex are epic, but pay to see other people <not allowed> having intecourse with each other..... really
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Lee

Quote from: kate durcal on July 25, 2011, 10:53:28 PM
Love and sex are epic, but pay to see other people <not allowed> having intecourse with each other..... really

Yes, really :)
Trust me, it's not hard to find free porn of people who seem to be very much in love and having the time of their lives.
Oh I'm a lucky man to count on both hands the ones I love

A blah blog
http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,365.0.html
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tekla

rape has nothing to do with sexual attraction
TRUE.  The most basic understanding of rape starts with rape being about power and control and punishment and has nothing to do with sex or attraction.

all pedophiles are sick people
TRUE if we are working from a strict definition of the word, and few people do.  Specifically it's a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary).  The way CP and many other statues work, and the entire To Catch a Predator mentality tends to view it as any sex at all under the age of 18.  I'm surprised the morality police haven't shut down productions of Romeo and Juliet because while R&J are too busy ->-bleeped-<-ing like bunnies to listen to their parents she is 'almost 14" which means, she is 13 in that play.  So if we're talking about true CP with prepubescent humans, then sure, if we're talking about 17 year olds, that gets a lot trickier.

i don't think porn can make people into rapists
TRUE.  Rape is independent of porn.  In fact many of the most puritanical society's, those that would heavy restrict materials with strong sexual content, have pretty high rates of rape.  In fact I think porn prevents rape.  But hey, don't believe me.   A study at the Northwestern School of Law found that while the availability/quality/distribution of porn has skyrocketed in the last 25 years the reported incidents of rape have decreased 85%.  That's pretty amazing stuff.
http://anthonydamato.law.northwestern.edu/Adobefiles/porn.pdf

or...A 10 percent increase in Net access yields about a 7.3 percent decrease in reported rapes.
http://www.slate.com/id/2152487/

or...Indeed it appears from our data from Japan, as it was evident to Kutchinsky (1994), from research in Europe and Scandinavia, that a large increase in available sexually explicit materials, over many years, has not been correlated with an increase in rape or other sexual crimes. Instead, in Japan a marked decrease in sexual crimes has occurred.
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html


I think pedophiles are sick people.  How they become this way I don't know
Obviously because of something that happened, or they associated with childhood.  They just took it in the wrong direction.  But lots of fetish behavior, like a good over the knee spanking, have childhood roots.  Really, for all the "Sex is for Adults" rhetoric, most real sexual activity is, if not juvinale, at least highly adolescent.


Pornography is immoral
I must have missed the 11th Commandment somehow, mine only go up to 10.  And I'm also missing where Jesus railed against people spanking the monkey to naughty drawings (and Jesus was living in a Roman occupied country, so there was plenty of porn, tons of it).  There is a very specific prohibition against adultery, which has been used to condemn anything and everything sexual, but if you actually read the book, you'll find that when they say 'adultery' they don't mean unwed sex, premarital sex, or masturbation, they mean sex between married people who are not married to each other.

A substantial amount of the porno out there is not even people having full out, hard on sex.  It's pictures of naked, or nearly naked women.  That's all.  Assuming that the model was willing, the photographer was willing, and the viewer was willing then I'm having trouble seeing the immorality of that.  I thought the body was god's creation, a temple of the lord and all that.

And who exactly is the immoral person in all of that?  The model, the photographer, the viewer, or no one until someone masturbates to it?  You know if it doesn't turn anyone on (appeal to prurient interest as the legal people say it) it can't be porn by definition.

And given that entire prurient interest stuff, is anything that appeals to anyone's prurient interest automatically porn?  If so there are a bunch of people who put together catalogs from Sears and J.C. Penny's back in the 60s who should be doing some time, because I sure used the 'intimate apparel' section as part of my wicked ways. 

Or what about people who have some weird fetish, like shoes?  Should all shoe catalogs be banned?  All shoe shots?  Any picture of a woman wearing a shoe?


should be illegal
I'm guessing that's straight out of the right-wing 'smaller government' handbook.  We already have more people in jail (raw numbers or %, either way) than ANY OTHER COUNTRY, and now we ought to be tossing in every guy who is wanking it to a bunch of pictures of naked women?  Or everyone whose ever taken photos of their own or someone else's naughty bits?  Really?  Is that your idea of 'land of the free'?  Honestly, is that what you think the government should be doing?

And, here's the not so minor problem with all that.  Define it.  Yup, please define 'pornography' in such a way that it's also not going to eliminate half the art currently in museums.  So that in your haste to make sure that weaker minds do not prevail you also don't put The Birth of Venus by Botticelli, Michelangelo's David, and The Cealing of the Sistine Chapel into the trash heap as well.  Our best legal minds have been over it, and over it, and over it and here is their considered, and august opinion: We can't define it, but we know it when we see it.  OK, groovy, so who's going to make that call?  You or me?  I have a PhD, 40 years of working in 'the arts' at least loosely defined, so I'm qualified.  Or, you get the only people who could really make such a call, and those are artists, and they are not going to ban anything, so you're back at square one.

Oh yeah, you know the image of 'justice' we use, entitled Spirit of Justice, the one that is in the US Department of Justice, and in a lot of courts in the US where such cases are going to be heard - well she's flashing some tit.  As is La Liberté Guidant le Peuple by Delacroix, hell she's flashing both of 'em (and major tatas they are too) - and that's a sacred national symbol in France and the inspiration for the Statue of Liberty.  I was wondering if you favored smashing them to bits, blowing them up, or perhaps burning them in big public rallies? You could toss on all the books, magazines and records that you find offensive too.  I could point you in the direction of planning events like this.  Maybe you could even say a few words to begin the festivities.  How 'bout:  "No to decadence and moral corruption!  Yes to decency and morality in family and state!" That was a big hit for Goebbels the last time we did this.  I always tripped out on the fact that amoung the stuff they burned were the works of nineteenth-century German-Jewish poet Heinrich Heine.  He wrote 1821 play, Almansor "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen"*  I'm not sure if that's poetic, or ironic, or both.   



* - "Where they burn books, they will in the end also burn people."

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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kate durcal

WOW, Tekla the the master of the one liners response, indulges us with a full page response; from now on we should call you the porno champ Brilliantly argued, all good points, but I still consider porno immoral.

Kate D
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tekla

On what grounds?  For what reason?  And who, any, and all, involved in it are immoral, and who gets a pass?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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kate durcal

Quote from: tekla on July 25, 2011, 11:30:07 PM
On what grounds?  For what reason?  And who, any, and all, involved in it are immoral, and who gets a pass?

Becouse more often than not somebody gets exploit and abused by it, and that is immoral (wrong).
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Lee

From the article http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-mcdonald-stagliano3-2008jul03,0,1018875.story

"I have been in the porn business since 1973. To say that it is "rife with abuse, coercion and drug addiction," one must provide real evidence rather than a few anecdotal stories. For someone to work in porn as a producer for more than just a single film, he or she must cultivate a reputation as a good person to work for. This is a relatively small business, and if anyone is abusing performers in any way, that information is spread very quickly through the whole industry. No one has consistently done this in my business and survived; you just can't get away with it. When I was on the fringe of the Hollywood entertainment industry in the 1970s, it seemed that there were more sleazy characters preying on wannabe actors and actresses in the non-porn world than in the porn world."

Oh I'm a lucky man to count on both hands the ones I love

A blah blog
http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,365.0.html
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tekla

Becouse more often than not somebody gets exploit and abused by it, and that is immoral (wrong).

Actually I doubt it.  The growth in porn on the web has really been fueled, not by big studios and companies, but by amateurs and cottage industry stuff where someone sets up a site (often the model themselves) and provides photos that they have total control over.  So, if you take the exploitation and abuse out of it (and I'll agree that exploitation and abuse are wrong, I'll also be happy to point out that the wardrobe in your closet probably has more exploitation and abuse contained in it than you can find in porn), and everyone is willing, and consenting (and of legal age) then is it still immoral?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Anatta

Kia Ora,


Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?
Adams HE, Wright LW Jr, Lohr BA.
Source
Department of Psychology, University of Georgia, Athens 30602-3013, USA.
Abstract
"The authors investigated the role of homosexual arousal in exclusively heterosexual men who admitted negative affect toward homosexual individuals. Participants consisted of a group of homophobic men (n = 35) and a group of nonhomophobic men (n = 29); they were assigned to groups on the basis of their scores on the Index of Homophobia (W. W. Hudson & W. A. Ricketts, 1980). The men were exposed to sexually explicit erotic stimuli consisting of heterosexual, male homosexual, and lesbian videotapes, and changes in penile circumference were monitored. They also completed an Aggression Questionnaire (A. H. Buss & M. Perry, 1992). Both groups exhibited increases in penile circumference to the heterosexual and female homosexual videos. Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli. The groups did not differ in aggression. Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies ! ".

::) Now that's interesting,  ::) I wonder if this would apply to a "pornophobe" ?

Sigmund Freud, did theorise that people often have the most hateful and negative attitudes towards things they secretly crave, but feel that they shouldn't have.

::) On a personal level I have no interest whatsoever in watching nor participating in sex, however "Different "strokes" for different folks !"   Part of my personal philosophy is "Whatever turns one on !" Just so long as they are not harming others with their actions...

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: kate durcal on July 25, 2011, 09:24:55 PM
PLease smite me migter smiter!   >:-)

Looking at pronography is like the starving dude looking through the window at people eating at a restuarant; and paying for the privilage to do so, wow! so smart...

how do you know he's starving? Lot's of sexually active people/couples enjoy some form of erotica.

Maybe he just likes the way food looks?
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: tekla on July 25, 2011, 11:45:18 PM
Becouse more often than not somebody gets exploit and abused by it, and that is immoral (wrong).

Actually I doubt it.  The growth in porn on the web has really been fueled, not by big studios and companies, but by amateurs and cottage industry stuff where someone sets up a site (often the model themselves) and provides photos that they have total control over.  So, if you take the exploitation and abuse out of it (and I'll agree that exploitation and abuse are wrong, I'll also be happy to point out that the wardrobe in your closet probably has more exploitation and abuse contained in it than you can find in porn), and everyone is willing, and consenting (and of legal age) then is it still immoral?

Bingo, on all points.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: kate durcal on July 25, 2011, 11:28:53 PM
WOW, Tekla the the master of the one liners response, indulges us with a full page response; from now on we should call you the porno champ Brilliantly argued, all good points, but I still consider porno immoral.

Kate D

To illustrate the difficulty of a broad application of morality over a population which disagrees, consider that all of us here are considered immoral by a great many people in this country - a considerable majority in many areas.


In fact, the filters on the computers at my local library blocks this very site.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: Lee on July 25, 2011, 11:00:18 PM
Yes, really :)
Trust me, it's not hard to find free porn of people who seem to be very much in love and having the time of their lives.

I'm aware of whole sites which are devoted to nothing but "amatuer" porn wherein couples film themselves, or some combination with the people they swing with, for the purpose of putting them online - it's a form of second level exhibitionism, so to speak, which excites not a few people.

I'm sure the more high-minded among us think no more of self-exploitation (is that even possible?) then of exploitation by others -- but such people are clearly no one's victims.
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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AbraCadabra

* ... but I still consider porno immoral.

Kate D *


That's the problem with *morals* ... and for that matter ethics on the other hand.

When porn becomes unethical I have issues with it, and for that matter with all things unethical and not just porno.

*Morals* in my understanding is based on *Dogma* drummed into you by *moral teachings*. The Taliban does a VERY good job of that, so did Herr Göbbels and company.
Did/do they ever think or understand that they where/are unethical?
I don't think they even knew ethics.

I do not have any problem with porn so long it's not unethical.

By the way masturbation is still considered immoral by MANY.
It sure in not unethical, unless we may define a "new ethics".

My 2 cents,
Axelle
PS: Tekla, I think a VERY thoughtful essay, impressive I think.
PPS: Maybe you feel some day to explain the difference between morality and ethics...? You seem real good at this stuff and not in need to write a whole book about it :-)
Some say: "Free sex ruins everything..."
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tekla

Tekla the the master of the one liners response, indulges us with a full page response; from now on we should call you the porno champ

It's easy to write forever, all it takes is time and the ability to sequence.  One liners are much harder - that takes near perfection, lots of practice, and one hell of a little editor running around in your head.

And I don't see it as championing pornography (it seems to be doing well enough on its own).  I see it as defending freedom from those who would seek to impose their beliefs on others by using the law, and protecting Art from the Barbarians who are already inside the gate.  The first is my obligation as an American patriot, the second is my responsibility as a scholar and a card-carrying member of The Artista.  And since I think that the decision as to what is Art is a collective one made over time, seems to me we need to protect all of it.

To wit: I wasn't just being a smart-ass about the Spirit of Justice statue showing us some titty.  Bush II's attorney general, well here is the Wiki on that.
In January 2002, the partially nude female statue of the Spirit of Justice, which stands in the Great Hall of the Justice Department, where Ashcroft held press conferences, was covered with blue curtains, along with its male counterpart, the Majesty of Law. It was speculated this change was made because Ashcroft felt that reporters were photographing him with the female statue in the background to make fun of his church's opposition to pornography. A Justice Department spokeswoman said that Ashcroft knew nothing of the decision to spend $8,000 for the curtains; a spokesman said the decision for permanent curtains was intended to save on the $2,000 per use rental costs of temporary curtains used for formal events

Yeah, that's right, he covered up Justice the Statue, and he pretty much raped the Constitution while he was at it.  So covering the symbolic representation of justice seems fitting at the very least.  Guess he didn't want to see her weep over The Patriot Act, Extreme Rendition, Guantanamo Bay, and the use of torture.

And I'm sure my nuns would have freaked out had I ever brought a poster of La Liberté Guidant le Peuple to school.  I'm just as sure that there are copies of that in French grade schools like we have posters of Washington Crossing the Delaware.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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tekla

Actually the age of unrestricted consent in Canada is 16 for girls, unless it's anal, in which case it's 18.  I would have loved to hear the committee debate on that.

Not to be outdone, but in Florida it's illegal to ->-bleeped-<- fish.  However (unless they passed one this year) it's still OK to do Fido the dog, Elsie the Cow and Mister Ed (a horse of course).
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Lee

It's weird thinking of Canada as rabidly homophobic. 
Oh I'm a lucky man to count on both hands the ones I love

A blah blog
http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/board,365.0.html
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Wolfsnake on July 25, 2011, 06:18:03 PM
Um, no. Speaking as someone who studied animal biology at the college level, sex is not merely procreative. It also, especially in social creatures, forms bonds, resolves conflicts, and establishes hierarchy. Please read up on the subject before stating an opinion as fact.

I could also comment on the inaccuracy and pseudoscience in the rest of your post, but I just do not have the time or inclination.

I wasn't being entirely literal. I was generalizing about sex and procreation. I'm aware of the other reasons behind sexual behavior but did not want to write too many words on it.

Of course my post is inaccurate. I operate through intuition and fully expect people to to correct or add to what I say. I am an authority on nothing. My point is that it may be futile to bang our heads over what is merely nature.

I may also be slippery when wet.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: tekla on July 25, 2011, 09:57:40 PM
paying for the privilage to do so

Wow, you pay for porn?  That's so last century.  No wonder you're mad.

It'd be even worse to pay to have sex with porn.
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Padma

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 26, 2011, 11:11:00 AM
And it isn't just 18 for anal. It requires the couple to be married or both at least 18, and only 2 people can be present.

That's strangely hilarious/weird, the part about "not if there's more than 2 people there". Why does the presence of a 3rd person make it suddenly immoral (or their absence make it suddenly moral, if that's how they're thinking)? I shake my head.
Womandrogyne™
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