Put on your thinking caps

[Laurry]

This has come up in several threads, but I thought I would make it a topic all by itself so that everyone can add their comments.  Don't worry, there is no right or wrong answer, only your opinion and we won't even hold you to that, so feel free to change your mind as you go...

Last July I finally admited to myself that I was Transgendered.  After some soul searching and trying on labels to see which one seemed to fit best, I chose Androgyne as the label that seemed closest to who I am.  Since that time, I have allowed myself to explore ways to express myself, as male, female or some of each.  I have noticed behavior that ranges from very manly to very feminine...word choices and expressions that range from true man to little princess...and we won't even get into gestures and hand positions.  With a few exceptions (like sitting with my legs crossed at the knee) most of these changes have not been made on purpose...more like "getting out of my own way" and letting them happen.

OK, enough preamble, on to the question.  The question that pops in my mind (and can never be completely answered) is:  Did my words and actions change considerably, or by removing my "I'm a Man" filter I am finally able to see them for what they are?  Did I always move my hand in what I now see as a very feminine manner and not realize it was that way, or did it actually change as I allowed myself to be more feminine?  I think you get the gist...

My initial reaction is that the answer is a little of both.  I always held my cup the way I do now, but I can see how it may appear feminine (now that being feminine doesn't threaten my manhood).  Additionally, because I allow myself to act more feminine, I am often a little more expressive than I was before, some of which may be construed as a feminine type of expression.

So which do you think came first...the ladylike hand gesture or the realization that it was ladylike and that was OK?

.....Laurie

[cindianna_jones]

I have no clue.  But it seems to me that the innerself came very first.  The other two came after.

Cindi

[Casey]

You know, the more I learn about myself and others, the more I think that "either/or" is a phrase androgynes have largely borrowed from other people. I wouldn't be surprised if that is true here, too.

I think the genesis of a lot of our actions, words, mannerisms, etc. is natural, something that is just a part of who we are. But I believe they also develop over time. And I think the key to that development is recognizing them and allowing them to happen, to not retard or force their development.

most of these changes have not been made on purpose...more like "getting out of my own way" and letting them happen

That's been exactly my experience too. And I can force them to go one way or the other, but when I get out of my own way they just sort of do their own thing. I'm sure that accepting them as they are has had an impact on how they've changed.

But there's also one tiiiny little thing I tend to overlook. I knew growing up (well, at a certain point anyway) that I was not a |man|. So I had to identify what I thought a |man| was, find people who acted that way, and mimic them. Now, that worked great for very overt things. But I'm reasonably certain these days that there were things that got through my "man filter". Somehow they seemed OK to me back then, but now that I'm not clinging to that filter I can see that no, they aren't really "man", but we've got some nice parting gifts for you, thanks for playing. I'm not so desperate to be a man, so I can see those things more objectively.

I think that's also how other people know more about us than we'd like to think, or would once have liked to think. That "man filter" is like a woman's white, unlined one-piece swimsuit. She gets out of the pool knowing that the suit is covering parts of her that she would prefer to hide. But she's so busy making sure that other people are aware she's covered up that she doesn't realize other people can see everything until she looks down and OH MY GOD!!!

We aren't/weren't aware that the "man filter" was letting so much show through until people are a lot less surprised about who we are inside than we thought.

...and we won't even get into gestures and hand positions

Gee, you mean like Kevin Kline's character in In & Out suddenly realizing what his hand was doing? Nope, never had that experience. 

[Shana A]

OK, enough preamble, on to the question.  The question that pops in my mind (and can never be completely answered) is:  Did my words and actions change considerably, or by removing my "I'm a Man" filter I am finally able to see them for what they are?  Did I always move my hand in what I now see as a very feminine manner and not realize it was that way, or did it actually change as I allowed myself to be more feminine?  I think you get the gist...

Great question Laurie. I'm guessing it's a mix of both. For myself, there are things that I've always done that made more sense once I realized I wasn't completely "male", and it's highly likely that once I took off those filters, then this allowed more of "me" to shine through.

zythyra

[beatrix]

I'm going to agree with everyone here as far as an unconscious effort towards one end of stereotypical gender behavior.  Male in my case. 

What, you're expecting a "however" at this point?  Nope, just an "and."  And I've been more likely to just not care that, in my case, that I do like some "male" things, like violent video games and really aggressive music, but also like the conversations I have when I'm not trying to beat someone into my line of thinking, and letting myself ponder some other things as well that really wouldn't have occurred to me if I wasn't so busy fighting myself.

[Pica Pica]

I like this question.

I find that I have a more feminine way than before, I think it's almost wholly by letting myself get on with it.

[Eva Marie]

Well, i'd guess that by you allowing yourself to get out of the way maybe you've discovered something about yourself. Its a process. I'm trying to do the same and see what happens.

[sparkles]

its a lot about getting out of the way, you can tell this when you react to something without thinking and someone says that so girlly / manlly. usally happens to be when i have an ancident or drop something and i sreak and flap my hands around at work someone usally says thats so girlly, its more just me allowing myslef to just react instead of thinknig people will think im strange. Some actions though i do think about as i wish to present in a more fem way. but over time these also become second nature

[Jade H]

...the key to that development is recognizing them and allowing them to happen, to not retard or force their development.

WOW! I Like!

It feels as if you've just given me permission to just be ME... THANKS Casey!

...the realization that it was ladylike and that was OK?

It's beginning to sink in... Quite profound... IT'S OK!!!!

[BunnyBee]

Why do the more interesting/fun topics so often seem to come from the Androgyne forums?  Hmmm, I am really fascinated by you all and I think I may have some questions for ya which I'll prolly ask at a later time in a new thread.    Anyway, carry on.  Keep being interesting!

Please don't let me derail your convo.

[KYLYKaHYT]

For me I think it's largely a matter of just not caring anymore. I remember back in my guy days I'd catch myself doing or saying something that seemed more typical of a female and I'd censure myself out of fear that somebody would catch on to me.

Then when I first began my transition it was the opposite; I'd say or do something totally manly and I'd worry that it somehow meant I wasn't an authentic transsexual.

Actually, I've probably always expressed myself in a combination of both masculine and feminine ways, and now that I've started learning to just go with what comes naturally and not worry so much about labels (and what others might think) I'm finally beginning to feel comfortable just being me.

[Wendy]

Laurry wrote, "So which do you think came first...the ladylike hand gesture or the realization that it was ladylike?"
.................
Hi Laurry!
....................
By the way I am not TG.  I am just me.
..................
My guess is we suppress our feelings and we actually change our mannerisms to live in the role expected.  Could you be tough if you wanted? 

When we let our guard down we get to see what was always there.  The longer we waited the harder it is to see your inner self.  It seems odd to us to reflect back onto ourselves and see someone that is different.  However it is how we feel.

You probably suppressed gestures and now you can relax and see them being expressed.  They were there all along.

However the answer is not that simple.  People can also make an effort to change things that are wrong to them.  Do not some girls born with penises try to talk with a "female" voice?  This would indicate we can deliberately try to be similar to how we feel.  It may be uncomfortable and we may need a lot of practice.  However when we were young we were encouraged or maybe forced to practice living within the bounds of our birth gender!

Let's get it more complicated.  Do you take feminizing hormones?  If yes maybe you felt more emotional and more at peace.  Over years the hormones will try to rewire some parts of your brain and certain mannerisms that would be considered feminine will become more fluid.  You will also tend to cry more when you get frustrated instead of being physical.
...............
Laurry you have a nice picture.  Take care and enjoy life!


K

[tekla]

I think, in the immortal words of the 1970 classic Funkadelic CD, Free Your Mind...And Your Ass Will Follow, pretty much sums up the changes.  It is in the giving your self permission to be more like what you want, and not forcing yourself to be more like others expect, that it's kinda like a rain deal, with flowers blooming afterward.

[RebeccaFog]

My gestures were there before I woke up.  I used to catch people staring at my hands, so I know I was gesturing.  I was self conscious about it, of course, however, I am now the owner of my nature.

[Laurry]

Great job, Pica, for digging up this oldie

It's interesting how much things have changed for me in the last couple of years since I first wrote this.  At that time I was questioning everything; wondering how all of this was going to turn out; so worried about finding my proper label...

Since then, I found the legendary Fountain of Whogivesadang where freedom and courage were bestowed (at least a little) and my gender expression has taken on a life of its own.   Back then I would never have had the guts to wear bright red nail polish (fingers AND toes AND shoes that show them) anywhere where I might be seen...amazingly enough a couple of months ago, I flew from DFW to Phoenix, rented a car and traveled all over town adorned in just that manner and was seen by hundreds of people...Heck, I even had several compliments...but more on this at a later time.

I could never have made the advances that I made in being myself if it weren't for the kind folks here and their encouragement and interesting discussions.  And, even though I tend to pop in and out of here at times, I am spending time being me in the real world, and that is what we are all about, isn't it?

Love you folks..........L

[Pica Pica]

Great job, Pica, for digging up this oldie

oldie but a goodie.

[ZaidaZadkiel]

In my case, there were a couple of things that were very important for my mannerisms: I never had a male role model (father only came home to eat and sleep every so many months, no brothers) and I was too much of a shut in, lost in my fantasies for all day.

So I never developed a real "girls do this, boys do that" filter.
There's the movies, and books, but these are hardly proper gender roles.

And stories about "real people" are usually boring and the character they portray are only the interpretation of some (possibly drunk) dude with too much free time.

Anyway.
Part of my androgynity is because I just don't know how is a man supposed to act. Another part is that I like how women act (and dress).

Apparently, I can also act as a "translator" for what women say and men say.

Back on what I was thinking before, I only knew what "women dress like" is somehow forbidden for boys, but I never felt any like "I shouldn't behave this way" or so.

In fact, I bought my first skirt when I was like 15.

But I did notice a HUGE change in how I felt about the world when I gave myself permission to wear in public whatever I think is pretty.

I once knew this guy, Oscar, whom I traveled with for a while. He was very abusive, but I seem to be immune to verbal abuse (I just don't get offended at all... I get more offended with a "undeserved" compliment).
He used to call me "nena"(girly) and "perra"(bitch) but there was never anything sexual. He often claimed that "I liked being called like that", because I smile when he called me what I understood as a female name.

So after we parted ways, I was traveling later with other guy (who is like, more emotional than me, cries a lot) whom I like a lot, but I ended feeling like I was "taking caring" of him, and I think that made me change my behavior, somehow.

So, I got to meet Oscar and he told me that my voice had changed. More grown up now, apparently.

But then, now I feel like I am back to my "childish" voice. I feel I was making a childish voice, because I try to not sound too manly. But at the same time I try not to sound stereotypical gay. That wouldn't be nice.

But lately, I think I'm letting my voice be on it's normal tone, not forcing it either way. I don't really know what's the effect it has on people's perception of me...

... I forgot what was the question.

[Laurry]

... I forgot what was the question.

Once again...say you had 100 cisgendered males and 100 cisgendered females, placed them in a giant worldwide Super Collider and started the males in London and the females in Tokyo.  The males travel west at 5700 km/s and the females travel east at 4300 km/s.  At what point do you decide this was a stupid experiment and head out to the local brew house for a couple of pints of your favorite brew?

.....just kidding....

Like so many things, our perception IS our reality.  Once we give ourselves permission to be who we are, many of our fears disappear and amazing things can happen.  So, (like it makes any difference), you have my permission and support to be yourself regardless of what others may think.  Now that you have at least one person's support, isn't it time for the most important person's permission...yours?

.....L

[Nicky]

Recently I have been 'coming out' to friends and family and just facing the world in a more real way. It's like putting my androgyne face forward. I feel really different. I feel real, I feel good. I never thought it would be this way.

I also feel vulnerable and exposed. There is no going back in the box really. And it is tiring this coming out lark. But it is good and honest. It's scary.

[JD]

I suppose it's the old chicken or egg dilemma, since once you raised awareness of that problem, you're going to influence your behaviour, regardless wether you want it or not. Thus choosing to display mannerisms that you think are particularly male or feminine.
I think that there are no mannerisms that are gender specific, unless we want them to be. Well maybe it's just me, because I tend to take people as they are, however they are. So even if there is a behaviour that seems 'girly', I just think of it as a quirk that this person has.