Trans War

[Da Monkey]

There seems to be a battle between the Transgenders and Transsexuals.

I don't understand why? I feel stupid since I am trying to read all these threads and understand it. Maybe I really don't get the difference between the two. What is this about?

Someone help me out? Dumb it down? Draw a picture? 

[Annah]

To be honest it's a war between those who say "transgender is the only way to identify ourselves because I don't like the word transsexual" vs those who say "transsexual is the only way to identify ourselves because I don't like the word transgender."

Those who are against the word "transsexual" do not like it because it can imply to an outsider as "someone who is sexually attracted to trans people" just as heterosexuals are attracted to the opposites sex and homosexual are attracted to the same sex. It's heavily connotated in sexuality when being trans is more about gender than sexuality.

Those who are against the word "transgender" do not like it because crossdressers use that word and many trans do not want to be associated with crossdressers for whatever reasons (or anyone else under the transgender "umbrella"). Also, a trans person will say they are transsexual because it is the right medical definition and they want to be labeled correctly.

In all honesty, either term is fine. Whatever you use, you use. I personally use transgender but I will never impose my opinions on another trans person. If he or she wishes to be labeled as transsexual then that is their right.

A war happens when, out of ignorance, people fight over something as silly as labels and then try to make their label more superior than the other.

It's always better when you can accept the other person for who they are and not what label they have affixed to themselves.

[cynthialee]

There are actually a few camps at work here.

We have the TS not TG crowd. They object to the transgender umbrela. They believe that by ascociating ourselves with the TG crowd that we are loosing rights.

We have the TS under the TG umbrela. They object to seperatism and feel that a large umbrela brings us all togather and gives us more clout politicaly.

We have the TG not TS crowd. They tend to be separtist and feel that transition can be acomplished without medical intervention.

We have the HBS crowd. They believe that complete surgical transition is the only way to be recognised in ones gender. Without surgery you are probably just some form of fetishist and should not be taken seriously. They seek to woodwork and remain stealth for the most part. We do not have to fight for our rights in many places as we already have them as men and women who have transitioned. If we are asimilationalist and we pass there are no reasons to worry about rights.

Then we have the gender deconstructionalists who seek to break down all the walls between man and woman and make society a more androgynous place.

What group did I miss?

[Annah]

What group did I miss?

Oh, I'm sure there's about fifty others LOL

[cynthialee]

Oh, I'm sure there's about fifty others LOL

QFT!

[tekla]

Isn't it kind of funny that just as some forward progress is being made that all sorts of people jump up from within our own community to muddy things up and slow it all down?  I'd love to see some financial disclosure on some of the bigger critics and separatists just to make sure that they are not doing that because some anti-trans advocates are paying them to.

[Da Monkey]

Hahahah.

Wow, thanks so much. I don't know why I was having so much trouble with that. There were so many heated discussions I felt like I couldn't get a straight forward explanation.

I always thought to refer to myself as transgender until I had surgery then I was to refer to myself as transsexual but I live mostly in stealth so it really doesn't matter I guess. I know it is risky to use these boards I just like to have others to talk to about these things since I can't anywhere else.

I've seen people refer to others write it as trans* which is probably a good idea if you don't want to offend anyone. People seem to be pretty upset over some of the labels, which I can understand everyone is different.

[cynthialee]

Isn't it kind of funny that just as some forward progress is being made that all sorts of people jump up from within our own community to muddy things up and slow it all down?  I'd love to see some financial disclosure on some of the bigger critics and separatists just to make sure that they are not doing that because some anti-trans advocates are paying them to.

I am pretty sure that some of the online personalities that are the bigest ->-bleeped-<- stirers are actually sock pupets for some religous right group looking to tear us down from within.

[tekla]

It's always a lot easier to destroy from within than from without.  And doing this inside the trans movement is a hella lot easier than infiltrating the gay movement.

[Pica Pica]

I think it'll be the sad truth that the far-right etc don't have to infiltrate the trans community to set them at odds with each other.

[Annah]

Hahahah.

Wow, thanks so much. I don't know why I was having so much trouble with that. There were so many heated discussions I felt like I couldn't get a straight forward explanation.

I always thought to refer to myself as transgender until I had surgery then I was to refer to myself as transsexual but I live mostly in stealth so it really doesn't matter I guess. I know it is risky to use these boards I just like to have others to talk to about these things since I can't anywhere else.

I've seen people refer to others write it as trans* which is probably a good idea if you don't want to offend anyone. People seem to be pretty upset over some of the labels, which I can understand everyone is different.

as a transman i assume you are somewhat involved in the FTM communities. From your experience, do you find that transmen do not hold so passionately onto labels as MTF do?

I found in my observations that transmen really don't get riled up as much as transwomen do. Do you find that to be the case with the FTM community?

[Padma]

Just to add to the entertainment, the statement:

a trans person will say they are transsexual because it is the right medical definition and they want to be labelled correctly

may apply in, for example, the US, but in the UK the "right medical definition" is transgender. So there are people battling about different definitions of the same term in different countries. Sigh.

Personally, I sidestep all this as often as possible by avoiding identity labels and saying instead "I'm going through a gender transition at the moment." As far as I'm concerned, it's something that's happening, not something I am.

[Pica Pica]

I found in my observations that transmen really don't get riled up as much as transwomen do.

I don't think there is a single group on the planet in any arena or area who get riled like transwomen do.

[Padma]

I don't think there is a single group on the planet in any arena or area who get riled like transwomen do.

*cough* feminists *cough*

[Pica Pica]

oh yeah

[Ann Onymous]

I am pretty sure that some of the online personalities that are the bigest ->-bleeped-<- stirers are actually sock pupets for some religous right group looking to tear us down from within.

How about the fact that some of us who were of transsexual history simply do not feel we have anything of significance in common with those who fall under the rest of the 'transgender' umbrella, and as a result, want NOTHING to do with the umbrella.  Any issues I *might* have from a legislative standpoint have next to nothing to do with the non-surgical tracked person.  I was opposed to the consolidation when I first heard Frye and others trying to make it a much more common terminology issue twenty or so years ago and I remain as firmly opposed to the notion now...

But hey, why let something like that get in the way of casting aspersions for being vocal in my beliefs on the matter...

[Da Monkey]

as a transman i assume you are somewhat involved in the FTM communities. From your experience, do you find that transmen do not hold so passionately onto labels as MTF do?

I found in my observations that transmen really don't get riled up as much as transwomen do. Do you find that to be the case with the FTM community?

Yeah I am only stealth in the city I live in. When I go back and visit my last town I lived in I am pretty open about myself. Mostly because either people know, my ditsy twin sister outs me, or I don't have to deal with people I see there everyday.

Anyway I personally only know of 4 FTMs and it's hard to figure out. One considers himself transgender (he doesn't want to call himself transsexual because it sounds freakish). He tends to be very in-your-face about being trans, very aggressive, to the point where people crap themselves when they see him in fear that they might accidentally misgender him. He is also uh, uncomfortable around MTFs for some reason. I don't know why. We went to a trans group that was in the city but he 'warned' me that most of them were 'strange MTFs' ( I think because in his opinion they didn't pass in his standards ). He actually got into heated discussions with some of the MTFs and stopped going. He also has a 'more trans than thou' mindset. For the longest time I didn't even think I was trans because I wasn't as aggressive and sensitive about it. He even told me when I first came out that I wouldn't be able to pass or handle it. Then again this was a long time ago I don't think he is like that anymore.

The second one transitioned, moved away, and is in stealth and denies being trans at all.

The third is easy going but is very much an LBGT etc. activist.

The fourth, my roommate (hahah) he is a bit more androgynous and gender-bending I suppose and doesn't care for a label either.

So I guess 1 out of 5 from my experience are passionate about labels or being trans in general.

[Annah]

It's always a lot easier to destroy from within than from without.  And doing this inside the trans movement is a hella lot easier than infiltrating the gay movement.

This makes a lot of sense too.

There was a girl I will call "DL" that had been banned from 4 of the trans sites I frequent because she was so militant on her label that anyone else who disagreed with her label was just a man fantasizing about being a girl. Not only is this foolish behavior but it can be dangerous to an impressionable new trans person who will then say "sigh, I guess im not a girl/boy."

[Annah]

How about the fact that some of us who were of transsexual history simply do not feel we have anything of significance in common with those who fall under the rest of the 'transgender' umbrella, and as a result, want NOTHING to do with the umbrella.  Any issues I *might* have from a legislative standpoint have next to nothing to do with the non-surgical tracked person.  I was opposed to the consolidation when I first heard Frye and others trying to make it a much more common terminology issue twenty or so years ago and I remain as firmly opposed to the notion now...

But hey, why let something like that get in the way of casting aspersions for being vocal in my beliefs on the matter...

Then that is your opinion and your convictions and that's awesome about wanting to be labeled as a transsexual!

However, we are really talking about those who will attack a person who uses another label than the other or say "your label is wrong and my label is right." That to me is wrong.

[tekla]

I remain as firmly opposed to the notion now

She says...

On a sight clearly labeled 'transgender'...

hmmmm...