Trans War

[Arch]

"Trans War" sounds like a fun card game...a cross between Mille Bornes, Nuclear War, and...RuPaul's Drag Race.

[Annah]

"Trans War" sounds like a fun card game...a cross between Mille Bornes, Nuclear War, and...RuPaul's Drag Race.

Or a new reality mini series on the Discovery Channel on the world's most avid Trans Am dealers and collectors.

[regan]

What about the Cooking channel's show "Chopped"?  It's got trans potential... 

[Arch]

What about the Cooking channel's show "Chopped"?  It's got trans potential... 

Oooohhh, ouch.

[Lisbeth]

*cough* feminists *cough*

Cisgender lesbian militant separatist feminists.

Yes, Arch. Exactly.

[LordKAT]

TransMutual sounds more like an insurance company that hates paying out even when justified.

[Arch]

TransMutual! Number Six is TransMutual!!!!! (Okay, if you understand that reference, then you're as big a geek as I am.)

[Padma]

I'm not a number! I'm a free... er...



Sitting on the transom, sailing the gender sea, I be...

[Dana_H]

"So, here we have....Apple...and Orange. But in the end...we all Fruit!" (From the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding -- a favorite of mine.)

A lovely sentiment, I think. 

[Pica Pica]

I thought you were all nuts.

[Padma]

This forum should have a "may contain traces of nuts" warning on it . (I may need one tattooed on me after I transition, just in case the surgeons are not thorough .)

[PixieBoy]

Trans Wars sounds like a post-apocalyptic video game, set in approximately the same universe as Road Warrior, except with more trans people. Manly Trans Men and Glitter Trans Men are fighting, but the Butch Trans Women and Femmy Trans Women have maintained a truce. The Androgynes, a strange nomad tribe (they travel one by one, but all are nomads), are neutral and pacifists. The CisLesRadFems, a pseudo-fascistic group, have taken over a intact nuclear bomb from The War, and the Main Character must try and negotiate with them to keep them from blowing the entire world to cinders over a petty conflict, and also try and solve the various trans conflicts.

(above is intended as mere silliness, if you're offended then I apologize as it wasn't my intent)

[Padma]

Or the CisLesRadFems have uncovered a stash of Agent BluePink, and they're threatening to spray the Unicorn Forest with it - RGM^* write a suitable protest song. I see the Androgynes riding around on the backs of indulgent but amused unicorns .

^*Rapid Gender Movement

[Cowboi]

It's not really about TG vs TS, at least not in my mind...both describe a medical condition albeit slightly differently. The real issue is activists vs non activists.

We need activists, but the problem is as they get steadily more militant about their cause, the grow increasingly less flexible when it comes to understanding anyone elses point of veiw until they reach a point where they can't understand why anyone wouldn't identify the way they do and generally act like complete muppets as they loadly proclaim "My way is best!". They also just can't get their heads around the fact that TS and TG are at one and the same time both linguistic labels (which apply to everyone) and cultural labels (which only really apply to those that are happy to wear them). There is a world of difference between being a transexual woman and identifying as a transexual woman...same goes for being transgendered as opposed to identifying as transgendered. Taking on being TS or TG (of a tree if you really want to, I don't really care) as an integral part of your cultural identity has the effect of marking you out as different, not everyone wants to single themselves out as different. What effectively happens in these stupid and pointless arguments is the people who have chosen to take the cultural identity of TS/TG upon themselves get narky and aggressive and really condescending with the people who don't want to. The people who don't want to take the cultural identity of TS/TG upon themselves, get scared by the narky, aggressive condescion and get defensive and angry in return because what they just want to live their lives and don't like the pressure (perceived or real it doesn't matter) from the activists to take the cultural labels of tg/ts upon themselves.

We need both sorts of people in this world, neither way is best, neither way is wrong and the world would be a far nicer place if people actually thought for a second before opening their cake holes.

I'm kind of surprised that Neko's post went without any commentary. I think it is one of the most valid points shared. I think a lot of the anger comes from people perceiving that they are being pressured into something they don't want to do. People on both sides feel they are being told what to do and how to identify and who to identify with.

Personally I don't care which word is used for me, however I do see a difference between me and someone standing right next to me using the same word to identify themselves who believes in totally opposite things than me and has a totally different experience. My experiences as a transsexual who wants to transition and live in stealth is not the same as the genderqueer ftm also calling himself transsexual who wants to transition naturally if at all and wants to break down the gender binary. We are not one and the same, we have a completely different mind set, a different desire, a different dream.

I think people take it personally because it feels forced. And I also think we overlook exactly how different some of these identities are. Some of the identities we want to put together under an umbrella are working towards political goals that actually go against what other groups in the same umbrella are working towards. We don't all want the same thing... and that is going to make it hard to agree overall.

[Padma]

Mmm... it is interesting how a word like queer gets to mean pretty much what anyone wants it to mean these days, but trans-whatever is really tightly delineated by a lot of people who use it. I think we all want to be included (and inclusive) on the one hand, but on the other, not to lose our sense of individuality and uniqueness. So in a sense, we're each looking for a name for what each of us uniquely is, but as you say, we're all slightly-to-very different, so that's never going to completely work. It's an inherent problem with labels, as compared to descriptions. You wrote:

My experiences as a [person calling himself] transsexual who wants to transition and live in stealth is not the same as the genderqueer ftm also calling himself transsexual who wants to transition naturally if at all and wants to break down the gender binary.

...and I've added that extra bit in the square brackets just to point out that you're both "people calling yourselves transsexual" (rather than that one of you "is" and the other's just "calling himself" that )... and to me, if each of you just said "I want to transition and live in stealth" or "I want to transition naturally if at all, and want to break down the gender binary" then you'd both know exactly what was going on without needing a label to disagree on .

[AmySmiles]

I usually don't even touch these threads, but I'm beginning to think the "umbrella term" needs to be changed for there to be any resolution to the conflict.  Firstly, we have the issue of transgender being so close to transsexual that it's likely to confuse people outside the movement.  Secondly, we have the issue of people liking one term better, e.g. preferring the "proper" term based on definitions versus preferring the less abrasive word.  And thirdly, we have the problem of different official terminologies in different countries.

My ideal solution would be to make the two words mean the same thing and change the umbrella term to something without "trans*" in it.  That way, we trans* folks (or people of trans* history) would have no ambiguity and we could choose whichever word we prefer without getting politics involved.  I'm not saying the new word should have a negative connotation, it should just be different.  Something that emphasizes the natural human variance in gender that could be an all-inclusive term without rubbing trans* people the wrong way.  Because whether we like it or not, being born into a male body with a female brain (and vice versa) is a variance.  And so are androgyny, crossdressing, and everything else along that spectrum.  I'm still thinking of what such a word be, but I think it could go a long way toward ending this dumb war.

[RebeccaFog]

(above is intended as mere silliness, if you're offended then I apologize as it wasn't my intent)

I'm angry that it wasn't your intent to offend.   

[RebeccaFog]

I usually don't even touch these threads, but I'm beginning to think the "umbrella term" needs to be changed for there to be any resolution to the conflict.  Firstly, we have the issue of transgender being so close to transsexual that it's likely to confuse people outside the movement.  Secondly, we have the issue of people liking one term better, e.g. preferring the "proper" term based on definitions versus preferring the less abrasive word.  And thirdly, we have the problem of different official terminologies in different countries.

My ideal solution would be to make the two words mean the same thing and change the umbrella term to something without "trans*" in it.  That way, we trans* folks (or people of trans* history) would have no ambiguity and we could choose whichever word we prefer without getting politics involved.  I'm not saying the new word should have a negative connotation, it should just be different.  Something that emphasizes the natural human variance in gender that could be an all-inclusive term without rubbing trans* people the wrong way.  Because whether we like it or not, being born into a male body with a female brain (and vice versa) is a variance.  And so are androgyny, crossdressing, and everything else along that spectrum.  I'm still thinking of what such a word be, but I think it could go a long way toward ending this dumb war.

I am gender variant.

words are the bane of all languages and ego is the bane of peace (as is want, desire, greed, and other things but, to me, this is an identity issue and is more about ego)

You can call me gender nutty, trans, unsuitable for ingestion, hetero-gendered, queer, genderqueer, Bert Parks, fab, or anything. It is all one groove as I am defined by something other than words. Something I cannot even identify.

Maybe the friction results from individuals struggling to define their identity. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you try to define your identity as that cannot be done. However, struggle is an inherent trait in many individuals.

feel free to attack  despite the fact that these are my thoughts and feelings and I am not calling anyone wrong or judging anyone in any way. (this disclaimer is not directed at you, Amy) 

[Cowboi]

Mmm... it is interesting how a word like queer gets to mean pretty much what anyone wants it to mean these days, but trans-whatever is really tightly delineated by a lot of people who use it. I think we all want to be included (and inclusive) on the one hand, but on the other, not to lose our sense of individuality and uniqueness. So in a sense, we're each looking for a name for what each of us uniquely is, but as you say, we're all slightly-to-very different, so that's never going to completely work. It's an inherent problem with labels, as compared to descriptions. You wrote:

...and I've added that extra bit in the square brackets just to point out that you're both "people calling yourselves transsexual" (rather than that one of you "is" and the other's just "calling himself" that )... and to me, if each of you just said "I want to transition and live in stealth" or "I want to transition naturally if at all, and want to break down the gender binary" then you'd both know exactly what was going on without needing a label to disagree on .

I have not read all of the other responses yet, kind of about to run out the door, but I just wanted to say YES to your edits lol. I was having trouble really thinking of how to word what I was saying WITHOUT labeling people in the example lol. I was concerned that would just lead to someone going off on a tangent about my use of labels instead of an actual response (because lets be honest, that happens here lol) but just couldn't think well enough in the middle of the night to get it "right"

[Chloe]

Someone help me out? Dumb it down? Draw a picture? 

lol Well, nobody will EVER Agree (but here goes!)

"Transsex" means just that, "boy become girl" (and visa-versa) by chopping THANG(s) OFF whereas . . .

"Trans-gender" is more an Self-Identity Thing, relates more to societal roles and normal, everyday expectations.

_{( i stand corrected! )}