Trans War

[Padma]

"Transsex" means just that, "boy become girl" by chopping THANG OFF whereas . . .

...which excludes all trans men, so that's a pretty bad start .

And in the UK (for example) transgender covers both your definitions. (Just meeting your expectations never to agree... )

[AmySmiles]

words are the bane of all languages and ego is the bane of peace (as is want, desire, greed, and other things but, to me, this is an identity issue and is more about ego)

You can call me gender nutty, trans, unsuitable for ingestion, hetero-gendered, queer, genderqueer, Bert Parks, fab, or anything. It is all one groove as I am defined by something other than words. Something I cannot even identify.

Maybe the friction results from individuals struggling to define their identity. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you try to define your identity as that cannot be done. However, struggle is an inherent trait in many individuals.

feel free to attack  despite the fact that these are my thoughts and feelings and I am not calling anyone wrong or judging anyone in any way. (this disclaimer is not directed at you, Amy) 

You won't find any attacks from me.  I don't think many of us personally need to define our own identities so much as the government, laws, and (to some extent) other people require definitions of us.  I can agree with you on that fundamental level.  I define myself as "me."  But until humanity can get past their prejudices and start considering all human beings people, regardless of what particular quirks they might have, labels are going to to be necessary.

[Da Monkey]

...which excludes all trans men, so that's a pretty bad start .

And in the UK (for example) transgender covers both your definitions. (Just meeting your expectations never to agree... )

I know eh, trans men are always left out for some reason. That's fine 

[Lisbeth]

I know eh, trans men are always left out for some reason. That's fine 

Isn't that because you're not supposed to exist?    I know what you mean.

There are 1 in 30,000 F to Ms and 1 in 100,000 F to Ms? Give me a break!

[tekla]

10,000 seems low perhaps, but 100,000 seems high, and it's not anywhere near a million yet, so at least that figure has the right order of magnitude to it.

[Lisbeth]

10,000 seems low perhaps, but 100,000 seems high, and it's not anywhere near a million yet, so at least that figure has the right order of magnitude to it.

I'll just use a quote from my Information Technology background... "Without data to back it up, yours is just another opinion."

[Lisbeth]

*musical fanfare*

[tekla]

you have to have some way of being able to estimate a head of time to know if the answer is true or not

[Da Monkey]

*musical fanfare*

Hahahah that's amazing, I love it.

[Lisbeth]

you have to have some way of being able to estimate a head of time to know if the answer is true or not

My college degree is mathematics and physics. Measurement is the only truth I recognize here.

[Cowboi]

Who is being counting?

For real, no one counted me lol.

I don't put a lot of value in the studies showing the amount of people who are things like glbt, because there is no real way to count that. They are things you can't see looking at a person, so you don't know if you got a true answer to rather or not they are anyhow. And if you just look at stuff like how many people have gone in for certain treatments or surgeries related to being trans you still won't end up with an accurate number because not all of us go those routes.

To me it's easy to see why there seem to be less FTMs than there are MTFs, how are they going to count us? In many societies it is acceptable for women to dress in mens clothes, but not the other way around. How many people out there just deal with having to be a "tomboy"? Or on the other hand, how many people deal with just being a "sissy" and never pursue treatment?

There are too many factors to why those types of studies just don't work. And half of them are actually brought up in this conversation, the differences in our community, the differences in the ways we live and the things we do to transition (or not transition at all) cause a curve we can't possibly measure.

[Lisbeth]

10,000 seems low perhaps, but 100,000 seems high, and it's not anywhere near a million yet, so at least that figure has the right order of magnitude to it.

Who is being counting?

Oh, I should have readup, lol. MtF's and FtM's.

You hit on a basic part of the problem. The numbers were from counting post-op transsexuals in the 60's, and today is being used to describe all transgendered people. Apples and oranges.

[kyril]

It's always a lot easier to destroy from within than from without.  And doing this inside the trans movement is a hella lot easier than infiltrating the gay movement.

Well, yeah, you can say you're trans without having to sleep with anyone you're not attracted to.

[Cowboi]

Well, yeah, you can say you're trans without having to sleep with anyone you're not attracted to.

I think Kyril just won. Debate over lol.

[Padma]

Not necessarily - I call foul on the grounds that you can be gay without having to sleep with anybody, let alone with people you don't fancy. Being gay (or bi or het or whatever) is about attraction, not about sex . I spent years being bi without sleeping with anyone (but that was out of fear, not out of infiltration!)

[Cowboi]

Not necessarily - I call foul on the grounds that you can be gay without having to sleep with anybody, let alone with people you don't fancy. Being gay (or bi or het or whatever) is about attraction, not about sex . I spent years being bi without sleeping with anyone (but that was out of fear, not out of infiltration!)

Yes, but the point was regarding the idea of tearing a community apart, so you're having sex with someone you don't like for a specific reason lol

[Padma]

Yeah, but my point was that you don't have to have sex with anyone to infiltrate a community and tear it apart . All it takes is to be a dab hand at gossip and back biting .

[kate durcal]

I'll just use a quote from my Information Technology background... "Without data to back it up, yours is just another opinion."

Tekla lower bundary is close to todays number. Do read the last referenc for an enlightened discussion on why this numbers are deliverately kept low in certain countries,


New Zealand MTF 1:3,600; FTM 1:22700 (Aust N Z J Psychiatry. 2008 Oct;42(10):887-9.)

Serbia 1:1 MTF:FTM (J Sex Med. 2009 Apr;6(4):1018-23. Epub 2008 Mar 4.)

Sweden 2:1 MTF:FTM (Arch Sex Behav. 2003 Aug;32(4):381-6.)

Netherlands 11,900 MTF : 1:30,000 (Arch Sex Behav. 1996 Dec;25(6):589-600.)

Belgium 1:12,900 for male-to-female and 1:33,800 for female-to-male (Eur Psychiatry. 2007 Apr;22(3):137-41. Epub 2006 Dec 26.)

Singapore ~ 1:3000 MTF 1.2:10000 FTM (Acta Psychiatr Scand. 1988 Oct;78(4):501-4.)

USA 1:1500 MTF )http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html)


Kate D

"follower of Tekla"

[Cowboi]

Tekla lower bundary is close to todays number.

How do we know that? I mean like, do you mean it's close to todays number and is accurate or just it's close to the same numbers they claim today?

[Cowboi]

Yeah, but my point was that you don't have to have sex with anyone to infiltrate a community and tear it apart . All it takes is to be a dab hand at gossip and back biting .

Duh, so true. And being raised as a girl in my house I should know, underhanded comments and whatnot are a specialty of the females in my family lol.

I do enjoy that you never agree with people but always have a good point for why you don't. It makes it much more worthwhile to read your posts